Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Shampoo]

You're missing my point entirely. I'm trying to say that it's not justifiable or contributing to the story in any way to have that option.

 

Sure, you can go light side--but the Empire's general persuasion, and the way of the Sith as it is presented in The Old Republic certainly points you in the direction of, at the very least, verbal abuse of a female companion character.

 

I digress--the issue at hand here is primarily a marketing one. The fact that EA, Bioware and ESRB let something come through with a Teen rating, marketed at a younger audience that contains intense sexual violence.

 

Mass Effect 2 is more sophisticated in this manner and yet for some reason bears the M for Mature 17+ rating.

[Hellyeah_Rook]

Don't like the way Vette is handled? Try making a Bounty Hunter and check out Mako's nervous breakdown throughout he game.

 

What? When does she have a nervous break down? I play a light sided bounty hunter who is nice to Mako, so does she eventually flip out if you're dark sided?

[Jetflair]

I have to agree with OP. I haven't really played really far the stories so far(like level 14 most) but yes it can be bit touchy sometimes.

 

To me it seems this game is somehow imbalanced between factions. In Republic stories I feel I'm railroaded and choices are few but simple. Maybe its because I've played Trooper mostly but choices on Republic side don't seem to have many different negative endings.

 

On Imperial side they are varied and somewhat twisted.

 

Just an example. With IA there is choice you can make early on game that buys you out of trouble.

 

You could

 

a) kill who causes it

b) flirt that ends to..well lets leave that imagination but female IA isn't feeling well afterwards

c) talk out of it

 

On republic side it would be

 

1) kill

2)neutral choice 1

3)neutral choice 2

 

As comparison my female Smuggler never really had chance to do anything like IA before level 25. They should prolly tone down the bad things in Imp side and move some of it to republic.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Jetflair

[Vaegaknight]

This is fantasy. Fiction. You get good moral choices and bad moral choices. Playing ANY fantasy/fiction game requires that you realize that you are playing a character in a VIDEO GAME and that is ALL.

 

None of this is real. Accept it and move on. Because you're looking far too into it for your own good.

[Shampoo]

As for sexual violence, I cannot comment as I've never played a Sith warrior, but keep in mind that the game is for people over 16..

 

The ESRB rating T for Teen is ages 13+, not 16. Mature games are 17+. Perhaps you are confused.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

You're missing my point entirely. I'm trying to say that it's not justifiable or contributing to the story in any way to have that option.

 

Sure, you can go light side--but the Empire's general persuasion, and the way of the Sith as it is presented in The Old Republic certainly points you in the direction of, at the very least, verbal abuse of a female companion character.

 

I digress--the issue at hand here is primarily a marketing one. The fact that EA, Bioware and ESRB let something come through with a Teen rating, marketed at a younger audience that contains intense sexual violence.

 

Mass Effect 2 is more sophisticated in this manner and yet for some reason bears the M for Mature 17+ rating.

 

I haven't played every class, but I'm pretty sure there is no "intense sexual violence."

 

Shocking Vette isn't sexual.

[Jetflair]

I haven't played every class, but I'm pretty sure there is no "intense sexual violence."

 

Shocking Vette isn't sexual.

 

Oh behave

[Roodys]

The ESRB rating T for Teen is ages 13+, not 16. Mature games are 17+. Perhaps you are confused.

 

Mine says 16+, must be a EU thing?

[Shampoo]

Mine says 16+, must be a EU thing?

 

Perhaps, EU uses the PEGI system whereas the U.S. uses the private ESRB company.

 

Looks like I'm not the only person to find problems here. Kotaku and even Forbes are talking about it now.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...-old-republic/

 

Here we go.

[MeJimmy]

Hmm...I must need a shrink because for me there is not enough explicit sex and violence

[Alkiii]

I'm going to speak freely for a moment on the writing and content surrounding my experience creating an Imperial character (Sith Warrior) and what I find to be outright disturbing about the narrative--and I'm not just speaking towards the random killings and ability to be an evil SOB, I expected and enjoyed that. I suggest at least visiting this issue if you have even a remote interest in sexual/gender/lgbt politics and media portrayals.

 

 

 

This is my second major set of thoughts on the game--far from a review, just a small article and reassessment of some of the more troubling aspects of The Old Republic and the community it has betrothed.

 

Let me start with the fact that the writing in ToR is often fairly droll. I knew this from beta and onwards. What I did not understand that it would become offensive and leave me with a sense of overwhelming dread. After all, I have an enormous amount of passion for Video Games as a media pillar. Allow me to elaborate.

 

Recurring motifs involve acting out sexual violence against your female slave Vette--who seems to take it all in jovial stride, killing, enslaving and torturing people and aiding in targeted genocide against specific canonical races. These may be themes expected and accurate according to the extended universe, but the poor presentation is ugly and unwelcome. Dialogue options are limited to rude, malevolent or adolph hitler.

 

These reprehensible story and design decisions were something I was astonished to see from what we once knew as Bioware. It's disheartening.

 

The Old Republic's Empire is just... overboard evil--offensively so, and I consider myself extremely leaniant in terms of controversial material. I despise censorship. In fact, the content currently in the game would sit fine with me if it felt justified or properly contextualized. But alas, Bioware's Empire writing inmost cases isn't smart enough to justify it's horrifyingly over the top treatises, which consistently center on dehumanizing your proposed NPC and player PC peers.

 

...and naturally comes the marketing this material to young adults who lack so much as one strand of facial hair.

 

Worse yet, players operate in group dialogue sessions that encourage the aforementioned empty and degrading mentalities--thusly these portions are largely celebrated and incentivized by the community.

 

I enjoyed that World of Warcraft's presumably 'evil' horde was presented intelligently--yet I realize the canon is entirely different and that they don't operate under a fascist dictatorship. Even given those differences I think it's important to note that it's a step backwards in many ways to have the game reward you for things like ****.

 

ToR's undeniable older sister, old as she may be, possessed writing bounds more mature than that seen in The Old Republic. The grand irony being, of course, that ToR's major bragging point is it's alleged focus on in-depth decision making and narrative complexity.

 

I digress, I only created my Sith to let out anger and now, in many ways, I wish I hadn't.

 

If the writing was smart, if it was well done and conveyed the sense of dread with an element of satire or commentary, or even presented itself as remotely problematic I might be able to stomach playing an Imperial. As of now, I'm just stunned this isn't being talked about more by the media.

 

The negligence enacted by journalists and our culture to this sort of degenerate content also points as to why video games have such a gosh darn long way to go before they garner even a morsel of the integrity possessed by cinema or music (which hardly set the bar high themselves). Yeah, I'll stick to Republic. Also: I found Sith Juggernaut was piss boring and mirrors WoW 1:1 and doesn't actually possess high threat until the mid-30s.

 

Not so surprisingly ESRB slaps T for Teen on ToR and M for Mature on Heavy Rain. Ugh.

 

Maybe it's my attitude towards games right now, but something about the Empire makes me wonder why games like this are rated Teen while if another game so much as gives gamers a peep at a breast or contains crude language ESRB slaps on an M rating (Bad Fur Day, etc). I know these talking points are not new, I also don't think that makes them any less worthy of continued discussion. It's time for interactive media to stop being unabashedly chauvinistic and stupid.

 

This is where the game deviates from kotoR in a very detrimental way--you're actually punished for neutrality, and yet the majority of the community plays the nearly slapstick evil Empire (minus the humor). If not addressed in a timely manner, I can see the following problems significantly reducing subscription figures; a) a cascade of negative press, b) being World of Sabercraft c) terrible, childish, offensive writing.

 

I couldn't wait to leave Hoth. It's the same outright silly bosses that show up in groups of 3 for every major planet quest. After investing far too many hours I'm about ready to hang up my MMO hat for the forseable future.

 

I don't mind the grind, touching blue boxes for EXP, or even a relatively rude community--but the fact that the game seems to degrade in story driven elements, class customizations options (and bloat), and begins to feel even MORE closed off an impersonal has me not wanting to play even my main any longer.

 

I guess it's just really disappointing, I genuinely wanted an MMO with the charm, atmosphere and game mechanics to rival WoW's prime years. This is not that game. Oh well--first world problems and such. And then there's the flip-flop on the gay marriage and companionship which seems to have existed to some degree but evaporated and ignored by developers in the release version--the 'feature' has gone unmentioned by developers for some time. Oh well--there's always shocking (sexually harassing) your sex slave Vette and romancing her with gifts until she marries you.

 

****. Ebert was and is right. We have a long, long way to go.

 

tl;dr version for folks with less time on their hands:

 

The problematically 5th grade level writing in ToR touches on topics from sexual violence to torture, slavery and bigotry without even a bit of intelligent context or commentary. It reinforces why games still aren't taken seriously as art.

 

Also: read my whole post if you decide to start flaming me or calling me two-faced. It takes countless hours to properly assess an MMO of this caliber.

 

I am an art major who has worked in the Advertising/Graphic Design industry as an Art Director for one of the largest advertising firms in the United States (for the past 25 years) ... video games are not art and will never be deemed "art." They're entertainment.

 

Video games, such as this one, are based on Science Fiction or Fantasy. It isn't real. To put a real world spin on it is a farce.

 

Blowing up an entire planet of people with a huge lazer in a movie didn't have you making posts about the immorality of murder, did it? So why do it here?

 

Relax, it's not real. If you think it's too offensive, LEAVE.

[Aleutius]

I am an art major who has worked in the Advertising/Graphic Design industry as an Art Director for one of the largest advertising firms in the United States (for the past 25 years) ... video games are not art and will never be deemed "art." They're entertainment.

 

Video games, such as this one, are based on Science Fiction or Fantasy. It isn't real. To put a real world spin on it is a farce.

 

Blowing up an entire planet of people with a huge lazer in a movie didn't have you making posts about the immorality of murder, did it? So why do it here?

 

Relax, it's not real. If you think it's too offensive, LEAVE.

 

Some people can't manage their own lives and feel video games have to do it for them. It's funny really...

[Jayrune]

Ok, i have to agree that some of the dark side choices i've seen on the imperial side just, suck (looking at you, dark side choices while trying to turn ashara), totally counter to what the story is trying to do, and yet it magically works out perfectly. i also have to point out that going lightside as the sith warrior surprised the heck outta me with how well it was written.

 

I also did not see the shock collar torture as sexual harassment (didn't seem to have a sexual context when the options came up), though if your character is male i can see how it could be interpreted as such without an overt reference.

 

Respectfully, i think you may be reading to much into writer motives here due to the passion you feel for the subject matter you are discussing. The absurdity of the dark side options seem to indicate that they were shoehorned in there simply to have the darkside option, which could simply be to even out the lightside darkside count. Poor darkside options could also be simply because the writers are not good at portraying an evil character within these contexts, the context is often identical for both the lightside and darkside choices since there is only one narrative, this can make one or both options seem more extreme.

 

Having said that, i have found several of the darkside options to be either absurd, or poorly thought out, or not actually evil at all. it is disappointing, but i didn't find it surprising.

[Crayfern]

Hmm I was tempted to believe you were just a troll at first but i actually think you believe what you wrote which is scary.

 

Firstly my wife and I both play ToR and previous to that WoW and others. My daughter 15 has also been playing although on a more casual basis. All on the Empire side.

 

Both of them said to me how good it was to play a female character that felt "empowered" for once. Sighting WoW's fantastic ability to make full armor sets appear as bikinis on female players.

 

It interesting you sighted Vetta as being "abused" etc seeing as in game my Vetta thinks im wonderful....due to the options i choose. I never shocked her with the collar instead opting to take it off at the first opportunity. My wife on the other hand loves to abuse her "male" companion and tease him...again saying how great it was having a male companion pandering to her wishes.

 

There is a quest line on one of the planets that gives you the opportunity to free a female npc from a life of playing second fiddle to the men and make her leader of the whole planet.

 

As for the Violence...do you know much about the lore of either SW or WoW? SW on the Empire side is indeed a very violent and nasty place....killing each other to gain power is a running theme....read some of the books. Genocide is basically what the whole SW storyline is about. "Third film slaughtering Jedi kids!!". I was impressed on how well represented that world is in the game and how they didn't wuss out on putting in those core values that are at the heart of the Empire....even better they give you choices to not agree and not follow that line or thought.

 

WoW is insanely blood thirsty, genocide is all around again....where are the people sticking up for Kolbold rights....oh yeah thats ok cus they look like rats!!! From the first quests you are slaughtering animals and people, in the death knight starting area you have to kill a child hood friend ffs.

 

My son is studying the Roman times at school atm and they are learning how nasty those times were....have you seen 300 or Spartacus? Now that is everything you talked about...BUT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED......you do realize SW is fiction don't you.....good...ok was just checking.

 

Does SW:ToR have Sexual violence, slavery and genocide....yes and it needs to have otherwise it might as well be My Little Pony MMO. It also has Love, Marriage, freedom from slavery, saving people from death, valor, courage and loyalty. But i guess thats hard to write a pompous, self righteous post about.

[Hamsterkill]

I don't think I understand what you're trying say.

 

Are you trying to argue that the Sith are unjustifiably evil? If so, how evil are they justified in being, in your opinion? What kind of justifications are you looking for? (Keep in mind, too, that the factions in WoW are all meant to be "Gray" -- not good or evil, just enemies of one another.)

 

Are you trying to argue that the game should have received a higher rating because you can be evil? Meh, it's the nature of American rating systems -- nudity, sex scenes, and profanity get you the higher ratings. Non-graphic violence (ie. no dismemberment) and the potential glorification of evil characters get the PG13s and Ts.

[Madcatyoji]

After playing with Vette I bought my wife a shock collar....

[Selaik]

I am an art major who has worked in the Advertising/Graphic Design industry as an Art Director for one of the largest advertising firms in the United States (for the past 25 years) ... video games are not art and will never be deemed "art." They're entertainment.

 

Video games, such as this one, are based on Science Fiction or Fantasy. It isn't real. To put a real world spin on it is a farce.

 

Blowing up an entire planet of people with a huge lazer in a movie didn't have you making posts about the immorality of murder, did it? So why do it here?

 

Relax, it's not real. If you think it's too offensive, LEAVE.

 

/Thread over

[Loyal_Viggo]

sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Wait, I've been trying to do that for the last 48 levels of playtime!

 

What's your secret?

 

Do you play Good Sith/Bad Sith from one talk to the next, or is keeping the shock collar on the trick?

 

I must admit, the collar is kinda kinky...

[FAAK]

@OP If you don't like playing an evil character on the "bad" side then don't. No one cares about your opinions, you're just another QQer. If you don't like it that much then don't play one switch over to the Republic and play a Jedi. It's as simple as that! And for saying that the Empire is to evil...hello?! Did you not watch the movies?! They were evil as hell...you know with them destroying whole planets and all!

[Shampoo]

I think it's disturbing that it came through this way, without humor, without appropriate context--feeling trapped into abusing or express passivity toward the obviously sexualized torture of a female companion.

 

I'm more concerned that this made it through QA, ESRB and onto store shelves and through reviewers without a second guess--save for one or two journalists.

 

Later Vette watches as you engage in sexual relations with the widow of a slain enemy of the player character.

 

Again, the issue is more the negligence, the unfair marketing and the passivity of so many folks who allowed the game release in lieu of a story that essentially presents ****. It's way overboard.

 

I'm not talking about game design decisions--I know you can opt out of the worst moral decisions and frankly, I don't care.

 

Take "Ico" for instance, a game also rated Teen by ESRB. I wouldn't want to see a child presented with the option to persistently shock a flirty adult version of Yorda while playing as Ico escorting her out of danger.

 

These options being available should rightfully entail (legalities aside) at the very least, a shift in the ESRB rating.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Parali
removed "disgustingly snuff like"

[EssBen]

 

which part of joining the dark side did you not understand?

 

Do, do not, there is no whine.

[KittyPrawn]

I'm not sure you've looked at what the Teen rating is.

 

TEEN

Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

 

Honestly, the things you have complaints about seems to fit fine under this definition. You see Vette get beat or shocked, but it isn't gory violence. It is suggested that there is forced sexual content, but it is not explicitly shown. From the way I take the ESRB rating, the game falls into this category.

[Owsley]

No wonder everyone is rolling Empire. Sound like tons of fun. All my Jedi does is whine about political corruption and that dumb code. Way too zen care bear. I'm gonna role me a Sith and go midieval on someone's a&& Edited February 1, 2012 by Owsley

[_Lilli_]

Hello, im glad you posted this, as im feeling the same way.

 

The story was one of the major selling points for me, but after playing every empire class to mid level, i find myself logging in less and less. The mindless violence feels offensive to my intelligence.

 

Now i could play repuplic, but none of my friends seem to want to play there, because they want to feel ******, not like a monk that cries when someone steps on a flower.

 

I find it very disturbing how this game portraits this level of violence as something fun and cool, to 13 year olds.

 

When did mindless violence become cool and acceptable as the norm? Idk, but it seems this is not just a problem in this game.

 

The whole concept of pure evil and pure good never made much sense to me, so i tried to work around that by choosing good options as empire and so on, but it still feels all awkward and often the options dont make much sense. Now i spacebar through basicly everything.

 

Not sure how long this will keep me entertained :/.

 

Excuse spelling mistakes, its not my motherlanguage.

[VanorDM]

not a product where you're literally guided to make the decision to shock an enslaved, sexualized companion in order to get dark side points for specific gear.

 

Then don't? My Jedi Guardian has 200 DS points because there's been times when I felt the Dark Side option was actually the right thing to do.

 

You can always work off those LS points in one way or another, so you are not forced to take them.