Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Melkathi]

I just think that the ESRB has lost credibility a long time ago.

They forbade Champions Online from having strapless tops in order as to keep their T rating but they are fine with most of the Empire content in this game?

Something is seriously messed up with an organisation that believes that a naked shoulder is more harmful than genocide.

[SinjenRandall]

If you fault the writing for not making an attempt to rationalize or intellectualize choices that are purely psychotic or at the very least the choices of a sociopath, then that's the problem. If you play a completely evil character and can justify the actions of your character all of the time, then something is wrong. With you...

 

If you are gaming it for dark side points, that's also the problem. They are decisions you should be making, not points to gain. Turn off the indicator and play it like the choices were yours. And if you are still making those purely evil decisions, then evaluate your life a little bit.

 

I submit that true evil goes far beyond a character thinking he or she is doing the right thing and simply having a flaw. Over the top evil is pulp - there isn't a "smart" way to write it. There's no justification or rationalization for always doing the worst possible wrong thing.

 

Nobody said you would get maximum fun by always choosing the most evil options.

[Vaegaknight]

I don't look at ESRB as trying to teach anyone anything . . . and I agree that the rating system is a farce, mainly because the people behind it, like those that made ls/ds choices in this game, have no contextual perception of what it is that they are rating.

 

Interesting that we treat symptoms; you say that parents bear the responsibility for their stupid children, but then you seem to imply that we should 'treat' parents in some way in order to force them to make their kids something less than stupid. Where does it start then? A manual for parents? Laws for parents concerning how they should raise their kids? Or perhaps we should teach children the proper things from the get go, regardless of what their parents do, in order to make better parents in the future? Things aren't quite as simple as you make them out to be . . . but simplicity does make one feel better, doesn't it?

 

It is not a difficult thing to be a good parent. It just isn't.

 

But you've taken much out of my post that wasn't really there. Good job on that.

[Razyr]

What is absolutely shocking to me is how anyone could not think that The Empire, as portrayed in Star Wars, is one of the most vicious, evil and sadistic organizations ever portrayed in science fiction. Why could anyone be surprised that as an Imperial, your character may enjoy torture, senseless slaughter or even sexual violence?

 

This precedent has been firmly established by the Star Wars Universe for over 3 decades now.

 

Let's go back to 1977 when Star Wars first burst into the scene. We see The Empire building a super weapon to destroy entire civilizations. And then they use it, for no other reason than to make a point. Not to save The Empire, not because there was some great historical turning point at stake that threatened all they had established, but simply to make a point. "...millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." is how Obi-Wan felt it, rightly so, because millions had been callously murdered.

 

Let's not forget Darth Vader, willing to choke a man to death in plain view for merely a differing opinion. Nothing more, they simply didn't agree. Yet I have never heard ANYONE complain about this behavior. Ever.

 

Then you have the torture of Princess Leia, a legally protected dignitary. The device used on her made water-boarding look like a day in the kiddy pool.

 

The same behavior is exhibited throughout the remaining movies. Extreme torture is used, mindless killing, slavery and so much more. Is anyone really going to argue that a shock collar is more outrageous than a man slaughtering a school filled with trusting children in cold blood? This was all at the hands of The Empire.

 

This sudden uproar about a few choices the player is presented, but is not required to make, is suspicious. Either the handful of outraged people have been willfully blind to the vicious acts portrayed by The Empire in Star Wars over the last 34 years, or have an alternative agenda. What that could be may be garnering attention for themselves or simply degrading SWTOR in order to pull potential customers away.

 

So let's get some honesty. If you are truly outraged by the choices BioWare has offered to Imperial players, which happen to be fully in line with how the organization has been portrayed, we want to know if you're an idiot living under a rock for the last 30 years OR if you have some other agenda. Come clean, we are waiting for a truthful answer.

 

Either way your opinion can be disregarded.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Razyr

[Shampoo]

I don't look at ESRB as trying to teach anyone anything . . .

 

And I wish even 10% of the consumers purchasing this game for their child shared your consciousness--we'd live in a better world.

 

The sad reality is, rating systems hold a lot of sway. I don't like it, most people in the industry don't like it.

 

That doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that it provably has an impact on the decision making parents go through while selecting media that is foreign to them.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Shampoo

[BlownSi]

I don't think any of these themes are worse than what you can read in the world's most known religious books. I don't think those books even have a T rating.

 

Best....Post.....Ever!

 

It is so so true. Thank you for your input!

[Eliezer]

TL;DR response to the original poster - You do realize you could have juts made every Light Side aligned choice, right?

 

Did you ever watch Star Wars? The evil side is pretty ham-fisted. What part of Star Wars made you think maybe the bad guys were just misunderstood?

[PharaD]

Not sure if it was asked,

 

Why is a shock collar - sexual? Could say something about your inner thoughts.

 

..and why is it ok to be as a jedi to kill around 200000 people or aliens in mass genocide raids for low gains (as needed in most mmo) but any form of sexual content is always highly jumped upon

[Tortoises]

Star Wars has always been a work of Art.

 

 

But in my humble opinion, from watching Star Wars, I think George Lucas was basically taking two sides of Human Nature and dividing them into the Jedi and the Sith.

 

On one hand you have Lust, Passion, Desire, Greed, Jealousy, Hatred

 

In the other hand you have Forgiveness, Meditation, Discipline, Justice, Abstinence

 

I also think that when he made these movies, they are not only to be great Sci Fi fantasy movies and literature, but I also think there is an underlying Political tone going on here.

 

I think he is suggesting the United States, past and present, the Military Industrial Complex, the Free World, Communism and so on.

 

There are definitely some very strong themes in Star Wars and always have been.

 

You have to remember that when these movies were being released during the Cold War/Vietnam Era. There was a lot going on, and still today there is a lot going on.

 

 

But back to my original point. Yes this game has strong elements of Good and Evil in it. That is what it is supposed to have in it, because without that, it wouldn't be Star Wars.

 

( Personally I think your choice of sides also reflects yourself as a Human being somewhat, but that is just me )

[KerythFOS]

Yes, the Empire is evil--you volunteer for it. But folks who buy the game expect an experience like the original trilogy, not a product where you're literally guided to make the decision to shock an enslaved, sexualized companion in order to get dark side points for specific gear.

 

You mention the Empire in the movies. You mean the Human's only Empire, where an entire planet was destroyed simply as a demonstration? An Empire founded on the blood of the casualties of a war started simply to put one man in power and ended with the slaughter not only of 100s of Jedi Knights but children? An Empire where one person kills people to death? An Empire where 'Fear will keep the local systems in line"?

 

Face it, The Empire of the Movies was an over the top evil. This is what you agree to when you make an Imperial character. You support a regime that rules with an iron fist, enslaves those it wants, and destroys all who it feels are in its way.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Vastalee
removed hitler reference

[SWImara]

I keep seeing this issue with Vette and shock collar pop up everyone on the internet and frankly I'm surprised with people.

My marauder is lvl 5 Light, Vette considers her a sister, her companions are actively working to reform Empire from the inside. She's even building relationships with Jedi and getting Jedi schools to teach peaceful coexistence and collaboration with the Sith.

All of it Because she doesn't want for genocide/slavery/abuse to continue. The game allows you to be very evil, if you chose so. It also allows you to be a revolutionary, so to speak, and to try and change the regime. You can also only care about the credits, or not care about anything at all. The point is- complaining that the "evil" side is "evil" is strange, and then going around and trying to see what every dark-side option does and THEN complaining that it's too dark is even stranger.

This^^

 

I actually have trouble playing evil PCs in this game, some of the choices given are really rough and were just too much for me thus my Sith Warrior is basically a good guy fighting for a not so great cause (ie something approaching an actual moral dilemma, rather than a mustache twirling comic-book villain). Should morality play no role in a video game, or in a story for that matter? Would people be making these same arguments if these themes existed in a book? Why isn't anyone concerned about the literally McGillions of humans and sentient creatures you have to kill to reach end game? Sometimes I really wonder *** is wrong with our values system that people get up in arms about video games showing any hint of moral choice, but no problem with constant gratuitous violence in American games, literature or cinema.

Edited February 1, 2012 by SWImara

[Scoobings]

And I wish even 10% of the consumer purchasing this game for their child shared your consciousness--we'd live in a better world.

 

The sad reality is, rating systems hold a lot of sway. I don't like it, most people in the industry don't like it.

 

That doesn't mean we can't acknowledge that it provably has an impact on the decision making parents go through while selecting media that is foreign to them.

 

So all of a sudden a moral choice simulator is bad for children?

 

Text shows up on the screen and you have three buttons "Good", "Bad", "Neutral".

 

How can the arguement be made that a system like this corrupts children? Children go into the game with morals that have been previously established and that's what the game reacts to. The game is nothing to the child but what their own parents have started.

[_Lilli_]

In what way does it make it look "Cool"? You have preconceived notions of what "cool" is when you come to the table based on the society you live in and you follow those preconceived notions.

 

If violence for the sake of violence bothers you maybe you shouldn't roll on the side that has class titles such as "Maurader" and "juggernaut" Or "Assassin." Maybe you should roll on the side that has "Guardians" and "sentinels" and stop being such a baby about the game having an evil side.

 

If there was no evil in this game, there would be no conflict and there would be no drama and the game would suck.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not bothered by this game having a evil side, it's part of the starwars saga afterall, but it bothers me how mindless and over the top both sides are portraid and how people scream when a *** is shown but its ok for 13 year olds to play a mindless psychopath that lacks any empathy.

 

And my other point is, the storys, overall, feel boring. Go there kill everything, come back get rewarded and feel like a ****** or go there and save this and that and become a monk? It often lacks logic !

 

And what is left when you strip the story away? for now, a medicore wow clone. Not even crafting is entertaining :/.

[NkSde]

Another thing I'm noticing is a failure to fully utilize and understand how the ESRB rating board works. Yes there's a lable on there that has the equivalent of a tl;dr on why it's rated that way but on the website they provide a still brief but more functional synopsis of what you get, now the depicted acts of violence for the most part are "camera tricked" out of shot (i.e. shoving your lightsaber through a person throat) Therefore the depiction of violence is subtle at best, is it hinted at that it is a far worse act that what you saw? Yes, Do they show it? No. so it's really left to your imagination as far as the violence scale of things goes.

 

Now romance arcs...I am going to go on a limb and assume everyone here has had a relationship with the sex of their choice. I'll go even further oveboard and assume that most of those relationships spanned out into a sexual relationship (I know, I know between gaming session and raids we can't be bothered with "rl" we got empires to run!) so when this all happened did you stop and think? Holy **** I'm sexually assaulting a person I have no interest in (protip: If you did, that was ****, not sex) as such is the romance arcs in this game, don't want to to start 'em? Don't. Don't have any intention to bang Vette? Guess what? My 50 Jug has yet to bang, sleep with, marry, kiss, sexually assault, grope, feel up, cup a feel, or even so much as give the slightest notion of sexual interst in vette. The closest I got was once she talked to my juggernaut and guess what, the conversations apnned out how I planned it to. It was civil, and it provided me with the affection gain and the story gain I needed in that particular instance.

 

The problem I am seeing here isn't that the gmae in inherently evil, it's that the player in this case (op) is looking for a reason to put on an aluminum foil hat and try to white knight everything. The reason you see all this negatives? You're LOOKING for them, by playing the story as evil as possible to try to see what's wrong with it. Believe me, you can still capp darkside points with making a few light decisions here and there. I did it, I won't do it again but I also am able to seperate a video game from reality.

 

I mean, that's just me though, I may not be adding to the conversation but really. I think the OP has no point and is looking for something to protest and raise a banner over.

 

~Nick.

 

k, I'm good. flame away.

 

 

 

Edit in order to save space and from posting again.

 

The T rating, leave it. the game itself is designed around a T rating format, little violence, a few shocking moments which are all also nullified by the fact that you can kill x to start genocide y IF YOU WANT TO, but then again you can leave x alive to not kill race y and instead save race y and brush them out of the empires radar...come on people, it's not that hard. I know I know, "NkSde you're stoppid you are teh lyk gaeighest dood here I cannot believe you aare pusting on muh forumzzz lollllls." but if you talk like that personally I don't think your opinion matters.

Edited February 1, 2012 by NkSde

[dannomite]

OP should quit the game and save us all his moral tirades.

[Pantheros]

Trying to superimpose real world moral views on to a fantastic world never ends well. Ultimately any value judgments must be made in the context of the game world and not this world and that's where you've run afoul. If you're offended by these things than you need to take a step back, or quit, no one is forcing you to play.

 

You seem to put a great deal of importance on the esrb rating, but it's been an ineffectual system since its inception and has mostly been a front for morality crusaders and soccer moms.

 

As far as the quality of the writing I disagree with your blanket statements of 'immature' and 'unintelligent'. Granted, not every line written or every decision to be made is challenging or even very good, but I found at least half of the morality decisions had a few shades of gray and most of the story to be at least intriguing even if it wasn't eloquent.

 

I also disagree that the player is punished for neutrality. Between Light 1 and Dark 1 all crystals are available, the downside, no easy relics, and if you're a force user, restriction on commendation sabers. That's really it. Alignment has almost no bearing on gameplay. Really the most fun I've had with the story was playing an Operative and making decisions that would make sense for the character I envisioned (an ardent patriot, everything done for the good of the empire). This left me very close to neutral (light 1 believe it or not) and I had no gameplay issues.

 

As far as companions go, you can actually be kind to vette, they're not forcing you to be a sadist. Not that there's anything wrong with that either, we play games to vicariously live out these repressed desires, there's no shame in that. Men are born for games after all

 

Then you called it World of Sabercraft and I stopped reading.

 

Also I must lol at the forbes article. They have that gentle tone of condescension that is always present when repressed men exhort on issues of morality. They cover a lot of ground without really understanding any of it and it seems, like you, they miss the point of having these options in the first place.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Pantheros

[cromartyfive]

There has to be someone instilling some kind of good faith in order to keep this society together.

 

I agree too. I just kept thinking how does this society function and grow when everyone is killing each other and corrupt.

 

I understand it's a game and based on Star Wars but it was something I just couldn't help wondering about. Instead of complexity, they went for cartoonish.

[Dire]

Hello,

 

OP - I would have to disagree with most everything you have typed aside from 1 VERY specific thing. The T rating on the game should be adjusted.

 

I am personally not in agreement about the way many expect their children to be raised. Censorship is an "at home" issue. If you don't like something because you think its ethically wrong - thats your business. you're entitled to that. However when you feel the need to post a rant on a public forum and start using comparisons like "adolf hitler" and disturbingly malevolant" i tend to start ignoring you and resenting the idea of any possible thought of an intelligent discussion with you.

 

You simply sound like an ignorant conservative that believe the right of choice is but a falacy and only reserved for elitist few like yourself.

 

Plain and simple. This is a game - keep your children out of it if you want, but don't start acting like this does any real damage to society as a whole. Only those like you who attempt your own version of oppression (judgements, passive aggression of freedoms) are doing any real damage.

 

Please leave parenting issues on the sidelines and in your own home and stop trying to sabotage what is CLEARLY a most positive gameplay and experience as judged by the majority.

 

Thank you,

[LovelyGentlemann]

TLDR. Play republic.

 

/Thread

Edited February 1, 2012 by LovelyGentlemann

[gamay]

I understand the OP, and agree that the writing for the DS choices are rather pathetic, but I also think the writing, in general, is pathetic. True, there are real gems here and there, and I even happen to like the basic premise of many of the class stories, but most of this is designed to appease the average MMO player, or what Bioware thinks is the average MMO player (and that should be insult enough to everyone who does play).

 

As regards many of your key points, though, I will say that I would expect an evil Empire to display racism, bigotry, and slavery. I don't think you are particularly upset that those exist in the Empire, but how they are portrayed, the sophomoric style with which it is done. It may have been that it was difficult for the writers to not only conceptualize a deep background story as to why these things exist, but also lacked the time or ability to appropriately write this into the variou class stories, or even into the general questing structure. We are simply to accept it as is. It was as if they were told that the Empire was [Evil], [slave-owning], [Prejudiced], but never given the leeway to create the reasons, or the understanding of why or how. It just is. And so, they write these individual story-lines, following these guidelines, without ever knowing why, and always being mindful that the content must be extremely simplistic so as to keep the softer minds that play engaged.

 

To that end, it does not shock me that Vette comes equipped with a shock collar. It is expected - a part of the story that does fit - but that it really doesn't come with the consequences is just poor and simplistic. Honestly though, I take more offense in Lucas' hebetudinous creation and artificial division of good and evil. Good is emotionless and loveless and Evil is full of piss and vinegar, being evil for the sake of it, but never expanding on that idea. I find that to be the real culprit. It is a topic for a much longer and more indepth discussion, but the man's own misogyny is deeply linked into the mysticism of the Jedi and, consequently, the Sith. A statement that will, undoubtedly, earn me a mountain of scorn.

 

It is a highly constrained paradigm that is being used, where any emotions shown by the good guys means that one is falling to the "dark path" and all emotions shown by the evil guys are only idiotic, spiteful and carry no consequences. It is kept simple for the emotionally immature, and tepid so as not to induce thought. I blame the writers less than I blame the rules they have to follow. It leaves little room for the complex, intertwined and messy grey morality in which we actually do live, and arbitrarily separates everything into two bins: one light and clueless, and one dark, and equally clueless, and all reason is abandoned.

[Cwyn]

Are you familiar with the universe and the timeline AT ALL? "How the heck the Empirse survives without constant revolts and defectiosn."

 

Really?

 

Spoiler alert: It does

 

That's what the Republic is, and that's what the rebellion is later, and it's what eventually brings down the Empire.

 

That's the point of the entire saga.

 

Just because it's written that way doesn't make the idea the least bit feasible. A regime like that can't survive for thousands of years without killing itself or reinventing itself. THOUSANDS of years! Really?

 

At least in the prelude books, that I have read by the way, the psychopaths were rare or nonexistent. The sociopaths (aside from the slave masters), were nearly as rare and presented themselves more as keen manipulators rather than savage brutes!

 

And I believe in THIS timeline, the Empire is a completely separate entity from the Republic. It doesn't broach the subject of the Empire eating itself alive. I will concede one interesting point, social commentary that it is. I can accept the Empire employing the scare tactics of a savage Republic against its own citizens, not so different from Bush's "War on Terror". Unfortunately Bioware hasn't lent much to that argument. I can think of only one passing reference from ambient chatter in Dromund Kaas.

[Nakani]

Also, I have to note. The Horde in WoW were the good guys... Maybe a little rougher around the edges, but if you believed they were the "evil" faction in the game, you weren't paying attention.

[SWImara]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not bothered by this game having a evil side, it's part of the starwars saga afterall, but it bothers me how mindless and over the top both sides are portraid and how people scream when a *** is shown but its ok for 13 year olds to play a mindless psychopath that lacks any empathy.

 

And my other point is, the storys, overall, feel boring. Go there kill everything, come back get rewarded and feel like a ****** or go there and save this and that and become a monk? It often lacks logic !

 

And what is left when you strip the story away? for now, a medicore wow clone. Not even crafting is entertaining :/.

Your general non-enjoyment of the game is a separate issue, just understand that a ton of people (myself included) enjoy the game quite a bit and in particular the story. Perhaps it is not on the same level as high quality literature, but the story in SWTOR is frankly amazing for anything in an MMO or for that matter most video games.

 

Perhaps your issue with the extremes of the storyline is leaving the (LS/DS) indicator on. Quite often I make my choices determined by what role I want to play with any given character (this has never been feasible in any MMO I've played before now). There are rewards besides LS/DS points in this game based on the choices your character makes and the impact they have, but people often don't even know about them as a result of just going with LS/DS choices all the time.

 

In particular I've heard several people complain before about the Trooper SL, it may not be the equivalent of a modern war drama but some of the choices one has to make are seriously far from easy (more than once I've wished there was a reload button) this is utterly new in MMOs. People trivialize it, spacebar through etc, perhaps its not your cup of tea, but it is a serious divergence from the MMO status quo, and a step in (imo) the right direction.

[Shampoo]

Do you not see the sadistic, sexual undertones? She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them with her effervescent sassy complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

How often do you see media portray a slave shrug off severe lashings with giggles and giddy sounding pleas?

 

Oh right, it's a game, parents need to look out, the Empire is evil. Why does this matter when what I'm seeing is disgusting and unjustifiable with no intelligent context? Clearly I need to grow up and passively allow what so many others did and let a game I enjoy encourage sexual aggression towards women. Right.

 

Vette is a flirtatious character no matter what gender you choose to play as--and the dialogue outright encourages you to continue down the path of continued abuse as she nearly stops being developed as a character altogether. When she does chime in, nothing is rationalized and the gap in her story with you is not bridged.

 

It's complete rubbish to claim this kind of game design is appropriate.

 

This is a game that's supposed to have an honest focus on narrative. The trilogy had the good sense not to include characters who willingly remain in an abusive relationship to the point of marriage with no meaningful dialogue exchange.

 

There is no discourse whatsoever that we, as an audience, would be granted in the cinema if a similar situation were to occur. I'm still not seeing why some of you find this acceptable. Leia being tortured and having her planet explode is a tense scene--she doesn't return to her captor and marry him--just as she wouldn't spare Jabba for a little more slave action and a possible nuptial agreement.

 

I feel as if most of you are just trying to excuse this content as some kind of norm in video games. This is not a regular occurrence and it's certainly not something I've seen Bioware present to audiences.

 

If someone wants to offer an argument beyond the fact that "The Empire is Evil" or "parents suck" with more than just one or two sentences, please do.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Shampoo

[TyHeaton]

Just because it's written that way doesn't make the idea the least bit feasible. A regime like that can't survive for thousands of years without killing itself or reinventing itself. THOUSANDS of years! Really?

 

At least in the prelude books, that I have read by the way, the psychopaths were rare or nonexistent. The sociopaths (aside from the slave masters), were nearly as rare and presented themselves more as keen manipulators rather than savage brutes!

 

And I believe in THIS timeline, the Empire is a completely separate entity from the Republic. It doesn't broach the subject of the Empire eating itself alive. I will concede one interesting point, social commentary that it is. I can accept the Empire employing the scare tactics of a savage Republic against its own citizens, not so different from Bush's "War on Terror". Unfortunately Bioware hasn't lent much to that argument. I can think of only one passing reference from ambient chatter in Dromund Kaas.

 

Star Wars is not meant to be realistic.