Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Patrickgf]

Its quite simple. If you have a problem being an evil jerk in a pretend world go be pub. I for one enjoy blasting ppl in the face instead of collecting 8 more widgets so they can free the bonds of slavery or whatever.

[Lundli]

Dunno about you but I saw the OT when I was maybe 8 or so, and thinking back on it I wouldn't have any problems with 8 yos watching it now. Seen stuff labeled T that's much more politically incorrect than Star Wars or TOR.

 

The only thing that even remotely makes me think there's something more to the plot than typical good fights evil and saves the day is the fact that the Republic actually does some stuff as well that's slightly incorrect.

 

I wouldn't call Mengele style experimenting on prisoners "slightly incorrect"

 

That said, the OP has a sick and twisted mind

Edited February 1, 2012 by Lundli

[MariusZane]

Why you even bother to make such a big deal out of this is beyond me.

 

Its an option, just as putting a shock-collar on someone IRL is an option. Just as killing everyone around you IRL is an option.

 

Whether you chose it or not is an entirely different story.

 

And as mentioned, female charakters can do the same to a male counterpart, but not a single word about that. Cause shocking males is perfectly fine?

 

You sir...

 

No i wont go there.

[knightblaster]

Keep your social and political campaigns out of video games.

 

Thank you.

[Vaegaknight]

Keep your social and political campaigns out of video games.

 

Thank you.

 

No. Thank YOU.

[AlyxDinas]

I'd like to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are being serious. That granted, I would suggest that their argument and further conversation would be much more well received without the dripping layers of sanctimony.

 

That is, ignoring the inherit hypocrisy too. The Star Wars films feature, for instance: planetary genocide, religiously motivated extermination, blatant displays of slavery with sexual overtones, torture, and much more. We can argue if this is good or not, sure. And it would be one thing to say "Hey, some of the content in this game upsets me". But once we get to the point where the argument is "I'm a fine consumer of media with superior tastes and implicitly better moral discernment and I'm shocked an appalled that the things that I chose to do!", well, we have a bit of a communications issue.

 

Regardless, here's the real crux of the matter: Art. Any art of value, for a commercial video game to music to paintings does not belittle the audience or believe they are so small minded that they cannot handle its content. Good art and entertainment presumes that the audience is intelligent. Unlike the OP.

Edited February 1, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[LyriaFrost]

It's also rather disconcerting that words like "fart" and "gay" are filtered by Bioware's system to save us from the evils of flatulence and expressing elation or sexual orientation but the game lacks a filter to avoid witnessing the option of sexualized torture.

 

Classy stuff.

 

At this point, yes, I honestly think you're trolling.

 

You keep insisting there's "no way" to avoid this. Many people, including myself, have pointed out that you are NOT FORCED to torture her. The fact that YOU CHOSE TO means you're going to see it. If you don't want to see it? Guess what. Don't torture her.

 

Are you that up in arms that something exists, at all, in a video game? You're perfectly fine with us cutting people to pieces, shooting people in front of their children, torturing people for information, etc, but good god, don't shock Vette, that's horrible and sexual!

 

Simply put, you're a hypocrite. You purposefully sought out something, and now you're whining because you were "forced" by your own choices to see it.

 

It's like going onto the internet and trying to find nekkid pics, and then shrieking about how "immoral and sickening" the internet is, because there's "no filter" against the very nekkid pics that you WENT LOOKING FOR.

Edited February 1, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[AmedusTOR]

Keep your social and political campaigns out of video games.

 

Thank you.

 

Couldn't have said this better.

[SableShadow]

And either way, it doesn't make what he's trying to say or his opinions any more valid than what anyone else has to say. -_-

 

Exactly. If anything, the opposite.

[AscendantOps]

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

Humanocentric chauvinism, slave trade and racial purity are everyday norms in the Sith Empire, just like they are in Emperor Palpatine's Galactic Empire 3,600 years later.

 

Electrocuting Vette when she wears her slave collar is just plain wrong in my opinion though, you just feel like a mentally unstable coward if you play a male character. Other than that, I see little faults in the portrayal of the Empire in general. Even if some people abhor their policies, they still have the ability to make a choice.

 

I swear its as if parents these days want the government to raise their kids for them.

Exactly. Star Wars: The Old Republic is more or less directed at a slightly older audience than World of Warcraft and some other MMOs out there. It's up to the parents completely whether they want their child to play the game or not.

[SWImara]

This shows that story tellers are no longer able to create stories based upon the characters they want to. What it says is that they must adhere to YOUR level of sensibility instead of creating an accurate portrayal of the characters in the story.

 

So basically, instead of creating an accurate storyline, we should adhere to your bigoted and chauvinistic viewpoint on how things should be?

 

Accuracy is better than censorship and a watered down piece of crap.

I appreciate the above.

 

The push toward censorship in a nation like ours should honestly be worrisome to people, it is bad enough when censorship falls on areas that are publicly available (as in network TV) but in things one has to choose to pay for why should this be necessary? Speaking of bigotry, why is it that no one is up in arms over the unquestionably evil Empire all having British accents? Does that seem culturally sensitive? Why not run an internet campaign against this aspect of gameplay?

 

Where does protecting the children come into any of this? This may sound harsh but OP may want to look up the data on this issue, violence (particularly gun violence) is atm a bigger issue in the US than sexual deviancy despite what one may assume from watching the news. Quite often in basically any of the varied storylines in this game the player is offered the opportunity to murder people in cold blood. I am not talking about random nameless mobs smoked in the course of level grinding, I am talking about story points where one can choose to take justice into his/her own hands. Should the events since Columbine suggest to us that maybe this is an issue that deserves looking into more than Moms Against Everything being upset about hints of sexuality.

 

Age of Conan earned an M rating... why? Can anyone reasonably convince themselves that it was over fatalities rather than breasts being exposed at times during gameplay? Seriously, what does this say about us as a culture?

Edited February 1, 2012 by SWImara

[MetalXander]

The empire doesn't need a reason to be evil, they just are. Some people want to be a sadistic Sith bastard. IIWII

[Shampoo]

I think now is a more appropriate time than ever to add that the ESRB is a private organization and has no affiliation with the United States government. Edited February 1, 2012 by Shampoo

[Slightlycampana]

There... Are consequences. Such as people trying to get revenge? Play through the Agent storyline as a dark side character and tell me there aren't dire consequences to negative actions.

 

That's good to know. From reading this thread it sounded like there weren't...I'm still only half way through my storyline quests, and I haven't come across any direct personal consequences myself.

[Parali]

Greetings everyone,

 

We understand that this is a subject that many people are interested in talking about, but we need to do some cleaning up to get rid of some of the more adult content. We will be re-opening soon!

 

Thank you for your patience!

[Parali]

Hello again,

 

We have re-opened this thread.

 

We had to do quite a bit of cleaning up here for content and rude behavior so we wanted to take a moment and remind everyone of the Forum Rules and Guidelines.

 

This is a conversation that is rather adult in nature, so we ask that everyone please take care to make sure that inappropriate material does not enter the discussion.

 

Also, remember that users are allowed to disagree with one another. We understand that sometimes subjects can get heated, but we do ask that everyone be respectful and polite to each other while expressing an opinion. Here are some quick examples to keep in mind when posting.

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Thanks for your understanding, and please enjoy your friendly debate!

[TyHeaton]

So can we all agree that the OP is just trolling, now?

[darthkargtor]

Its Ea and we all know EA just loves to put in stuff like this because im sure bio ware haven't done anything like this before they where apart of EA.

[Busukaba]

I think it all depends on your perspective and maturity. The OP speaks of being anti-censorship while calling for censorship, which is a wonderful oxymoron. He claims the writing poor and even "5th grade level". I would point out Stephen King. A truly terrible author who does not write to a level more complex than junior high school yet is enormously popular. But perhaps he should be censored too lest we mistrust clowns, musty smelling cats and the entire state of Maine. I also would find it a stretch to classify the writing in TOR as droll across the board. Some classes, the Smuggler particularly, are designed like this, but others are pretty sparse when it comes to humor and whimsy. Note, FPs are a little strange when it comes to this and often toons will say things which seem out of character for them.

 

So you have a problem with murdering people in a game. Here's an idea... don't choose that option. Oh, and how are you punished for being neutral? Are you talking gear? Because the quality of the gear is based on mods, the only thing your getting different is a skin. A skin that thousands of other gear hounds will have as well. I'll take my nuetrality, thanks.

 

I, for one, would be disappointed if the choices and options to kill someone in cold blood were somehow censored. It's a roleplaying game, play a role. If this has ramifications in your out of game life, then you probably shouldn't be playing this game, or at least be on some type of medication. Sometimes it's right in the storu to kill someone. Revenge, politics, just plain hatred.

 

If you pay attention to the storylines, especially the Agent storyline, you're a complete and total idiot if you kill everyone you have the option to. Looking at it from a political and military perspective, you're asked to kill far too many people who are intelligent and free thinking. All you do is weaken the Empire if you kill these people. But the choice is yours, now isn't it? The only people I gladly killed, if given the option, were sith, because those guys are idiots.

 

The OP talks about the slave you get as a sith. The OP does realize he doesn;'t have to torture her at every turn, yes? Simply don't do it and let those who wish to play that role play it. But saying that you could accept this if it was written into the story properly or justified somehow? how do you do that? If you're so opposed, how can you possibly justify slavery? You can only say it exists as part of this culture, which according to lore it does. Justification. I don't see your problem. You should be playing along with this and not having any issues at all. I just think the OP is confused about his messaging or is trolling...

[DarthHeir]

bad troll is bad.

 

About the only thing I havent' seen mentioned yet is the fact you CAN'T romance Vette until the shock collar is taken off.

[Imaren]

"ToR's undeniable older sister, old as she may be, possessed writing bounds more mature than that seen in The Old Republic. The grand irony being, of course, that ToR's major bragging point is it's alleged focus on in-depth decision making and narrative complexity."

 

Decision making. Exactly. No one made you torture Vette. I personally removed her shock collar on even my pure evil Sith Warrior. You're given the choice to do what you want. You claim to be anti censorship and in the same breath complain that while role playing an evil character you shouldn't be given the option of making evil decisions because it hurts your delicate senses. You would restrict personal freedom to stop yourself from seeing something that no one is forcing you to see. That IS censorship. So: A)Roll Jedi B) Play a Lightside Sith C)Only make darkside decisions you're comfortable with. Regardless of whichever you choice you make, leave your political propaganda at the launcher and stop trying to infringe on my right to play the game the way I want to play it. I applaud BioWare for pushing the limits a little, as only exercising our freedoms promotes them.

[kainsec]

I don't see the problem. As a person whose darkest character is a Gray SA Even when I made dark side choices on him they where the smart choices not necessarily bc I wanted ppl to suffer.

 

Also, did you take up arms when Episode 4 featured planetary destruction, billions of dead and not an R rating.

 

In any MMO you routinely massacre enough ppl to fill a small country on your quest for max level, did this cause any pause? Yes even the vaunted light siders spend most of their time killing ppl like the chunks of juicy XP they are. You can dress it up however you want they are criminals, they are supporters of the empire, ect ect but at the end of the day your still killing pixels that might have a poor little pixel wife/husband and children waiting at home for their poor loved one's paycheck just to make ends meat. Yes it's a stupid argument but as is the argument that the bad guys are too bad.

 

As to the reason why it's not rated M it's very simple violence is not gory and sexual content is implied and never explicitly shown. Without those two things it's hard to get an M rating. Remember WAR takes place in perhaps the darkest setting in gaming history with the exception of its sister franchise 40K and still managed a T rating despite genocide, pillaging, mass murder of women and children (and that's just what the "good guys" do on a regular basis in that universe not even approaching what the bad guys do).

[CatieCat]

You're missing my point entirely. I'm trying to say that it's not justifiable or contributing to the story in any way to have that option.

 

Sure, you can go light side--but the Empire's general persuasion, and the way of the Sith as it is presented in The Old Republic certainly points you in the direction of, at the very least, verbal abuse of a female companion character.

 

I digress--the issue at hand here is primarily a marketing one. The fact that EA, Bioware and ESRB let something come through with a Teen rating, marketed at a younger audience that contains intense sexual violence.

 

Mass Effect 2 is more sophisticated in this manner and yet for some reason bears the M for Mature 17+ rating.

 

 

It most certainly IS justifiable to have that option, and it contributes greatly to the story.

 

You seem to be laboring under the false impression that exposing people to these negative ideas, youths in particular, can only be damaging and harmful to them. I couldn't disagree more. Art isn't always pretty, it isn't always nice, and it most certainly doesn't always reflect on the best qualities of mankind. The mythologies of mankind are filled with sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. The history of mankind is full of it as well. Hiding from it will never make it go away. Pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away. In fact, doing those two things only makes it stronger, because these misdeeds often thrive in the dark.

 

The big difference here is in the FICTIONAL Empire of Star Wars it isn't hidden. It is taken as the norm by most, and lauded by some, namely the Sith. It is perfectly natural for a human to explore the darker sides of their nature. We do it through art, through stories, and in this modern era, through cinema and video games. Video games are unique in that they force us into a role, they force us to choose.

 

You said, and I'm grossly paraphrasing here, that you created your Sith Warrior to explore your darker side and wished you hadn't. Why? Because you found on some level you enjoyed inflicting pain on Vette? That sometimes, yeah, it feels good to root for the bad guy, or even be the bad guy himself? Those are normal feelings, and running from them isn't going to make it any better. There are times when my characters, even my light side ones, do things that make me uncomfortable. And that's DAMN GOOD WRITING. If the story of a video game doesn't illicit some sort of emotional response it's doing it wrong.

 

You don't enjoy the response you get from playing an Imperial character in a Dark Side way. Well, that's fine for you. No one's making you play that way. But perhaps you're missing an opportunity to get a glimpse into yourself, and that's a damn shame. Just because some people enjoy playing the role of a sexually violent, slave owning, genocidal villain in a game doesn't mean they espouse those values in real life. Exploring those impulses in a video game, where no one is really getting hurt, has to be one of the safest ways to do so.

 

Now, lastly, a bit about the ratings. Mass Effect 2 was rated M for: Blood; Drug Reference; Sexual Content; Strong Language; Violence

TOR is rated T for: Blood and Gore, Mild Language, Sexual Themes, Violence.

 

Mass Effect 2 has sex scenes. Of course, after the backlash from a little cheek and side **** in ME 1, these scenes are not all that .. well, impressive. TOR does not. TOR fades to black. This is the difference between sexual themes and sexual content. In TOR, it says sex happened without showing you anything. In ME2, it shows you something. Also, there is the difference in level of language between the two games - strong versus mild. That is why one game is rated T and the other is rated M.

[Mechavomit]

Intense sexual violence? Where? I think you're projecting all this youself. You can hurt Vette, yes, but I don't think you can outright r.ape her.

I don't see anything as bas as the OP descibes it. The game has zero blood, the dead bodies seem to stay together all the times, the closest you can find to gore are just big scars... they never even mention sex! I mean, who knows what happens behind that fade-to-black. It's possible they were just playing pazaak that whole time. Verbal abuse? Well, I didn't hear a single swear word, rude comparisons and offensive phrases to NPCs.. well that's reality. Take a look outside.

 

And I don't think you're giving 13-year-olds enough credit. Kids are not stupid. They will not instantly become rapists just by torturing a few pixels. Kids understand what fiction is. I'm not sure if the OP does.

[Elivapor]

Cinema realy? you wann go there? please dont go there, or i must show you some of the most typical american movies? so dont go there. Episode IV A new hope. They just blow up a planet just to prove a point to the fair princess. And to test their new toy. So just dont go there realy.

Yes the choices are simple, nothing is realy grey, its moslty black and white. But it isnt always so imo. try playing a light side sith, and see how it goes.

And dont you dare bring up wow on this matter, you are only complaining because in swtor you are much more easly connected with the story. And star wars is also fantasy fiction so its the same as saying that sauron is the hitler on Lord of the rings. Juts dont go there its simply not true.

 

This.

 

 

And yet, Vette still stays. Apparently you've not been paying attention here.

 

She stays, because the dynamics of the relationship changes if you treat her well . You still assert the dominance aspect, and she (can) interpret(s) that as a surrogate fatherly figure, and admits to that via cut scenes as she talks about her background.

 

The definition of slave goes beyond to what most people consider. It is not always about whips, chains and poor living conditions as it is so often portrayed. A slave can also be seen as a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. How an individual treats said person is the choice of that individual, which is what we have here in "Bioland".

 

This.

 

Lot's of very good points.