WOW PVP Gear Progression vs. DAoC Skill Based PVP

[Jedahs]

WoW makes more money that's for sure. Having an EZ mode gear to look forward to in the future makes people resub

[CrunchyGremlin]

Atlantis brought a lot gear but most of daoc gear is use based.

still I slow killed 50's solo with a 42 theugist in daoc.

I believe that to be impossible here

[GameNirvana]

WoW took the idea of Token Economy and drove it to the extreme. Everything in WoW is a grindfest. They even made PvP a grind. The world will never be the same.

 

The grind is great for some aspects of an MMO but not all.

 

There should be no grind in PvP...at least not for stuff that directly impacts PvP. If you wanna grind for an awesome mount then sure. If I grind for gear that I can then use to beat you even though you are better than I am...that's just stupid.

 

We can't go against each other just for fun anymore. No, now it's all about dailies, weeklies, champion gear, Battlemaster gear, then T4 T5 T6 T7 T8 T9 etc....

 

Make the game fun to play or most of us will quit. Dangling higher tier gear in our faces is a joke.

 

The developers here clearly were overly influenced by a single game...WoW.

[Spymaster]

WoW took the idea of Token Economy and drove it to the extreme. Everything in WoW is a grindfest. They even made PvP a grind. The world will never be the same.

 

The grind is great for some aspects of an MMO but not all.

 

There should be no grind in PvP...at least not for stuff that directly impacts PvP. If you wanna grind for an awesome mount then sure. If I grind for gear that I can then use to beat you even though you are better than I am...that's just stupid.

 

We can't go against each other just for fun anymore. No, now it's all about dailies, weeklies, champion gear, Battlemaster gear, then T4 T5 T6 T7 T8 T9 etc....

 

Make the game fun to play or most of us will quit. Dangling higher tier gear in our faces is a joke.

 

The developers here clearly were overly influenced by a single game...WoW.

 

Well said ^

[Bloodylittle]

DAOC's skill based system was/still is the best system out there.

 

Period.

[Karandor]

DAoC was amazing but people would never put up with the CC that game had these days.

 

 

It's biggest thing was 3 factions to control faction imbalances. There were still servers that were bad but most stayed pretty even with things shifting back and forth month to month.

[Bloodylittle]

Dual post ftl Edited February 1, 2012 by Bloodylittle

[Brandonheato]

Daoc was, is and will be till next big thing comes out, the best pvp oriented game for whoever experienced it.

Problem atm is, that companies don't care actually about what the community want, but how they can achieve most profit. Wow, unfortunately prove that most ppl care for easy mode grind fest and thats what keeps them addictive to game (therefor more income). On the other hand people that want to be competitive based on skill and not on gear, are fewer compared to the masses of low and average skill players (therefor minority and lower income).

Despite most people out there say. For me, Wow, killed the true meaning of pvp action and introduced the endless grind fest.

 

DAoC pvp > all MMO's that was supposed to have pvp. Hands down!

[Kolbenito]

Okay so players from other types of MMOs seem to misunderstand a couple of things.

 

In games that have raiding you have gear progression. PVE gear has been the bane of PVP in games that have both. Why? Because each raid tier is generally harder requiring higher ouptut, health and defenses. Raid drops are usually aimed at gearing players up for the next challenge.

So what happens when these players enter PVP with their powerful raid gear? At the end of vanilla wow players that raided end game content basically won any pvp by massive gear advantge.

 

So what games like WoW did to address this was release PVP gear that is at the same item level as the current raid gear. They also added a stat that made PVP gear better for PVP. Wow still has problems with powerful PVE items showing up in PVP.

 

What is different from the way swtor does gear and wow is that right now a casual player can get a full set of pvp gear in about two weeks in wow. There is a slightly better set that comes from rated games that takes a quite a bit longer to complete.

 

The ironic thing about this is that in rated pvp "pvp that matters" the gear difference is almost non-existant or very small. The two exceptions being a player who has a powerful pve item, and new characters that need to finish getting the basic set.

 

If there wasn't this gear in a game with PVE you would be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids. Bioware will wake up and make pvp gear easy to get eventually. The complaint about gear over skill misses the point entirely, you let everyone get the gear so it can be about skill is what is actually going on.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kolbenito

[theangryllama]

Okay so players from other types of MMOs seem to misunderstand a couple of things.

 

In games that have raiding you have gear progression. PVE gear has been the bane of PVP in games that have both. Why? Because each raid tier is generally harder requiring higher ouptut, health and defenses. Raid drops are usually aimed at gearing players up for the next challenge.

So what happens when these players enter PVP with their powerful raid gear? At the end of vanilla wow players that raided end game content basically won any pvp by massive gear advantge.

 

So what games like WoW did to address this was release PVP gear that is at the same item level as the current raid gear. They also added a stat that made PVP gear better for PVP. Wow still has problems with powerful PVE items showing up in PVP.

 

What is different from the way swtor does gear and wow is that right now a casual player can get a full set of pvp gear in about two weeks in wow. There is a slightly better set that comes from rated games that takes a quite a bit longer to complete.

 

The ironic thing about this is that in rated pvp "pvp that matters" the gear difference is almost non-existant or very small. The two exceptions being a player who has a powerful pve item, and new characters that need to finish getting the basic set.

 

If there wasn't this gear in a game with PVE you would be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids. Bioware will wake up and make pvp gear easy to get eventually. The complaint about gear over skill misses the point entirely, you let everyone get the gear so it can be about skill is what is actually going on.

 

Exactly, this is why the gear based system is a good one. However the whole random bag crap and no starter set are its bad points not the overall idea of pvp gear grind in pvp.

[CrunchyGremlin]

Exactly, this is why the gear based system is a good one. However the whole random bag crap and no starter set are its bad points not the overall idea of pvp gear grind in pvp.

 

well... daoc had raids too.

 

They just had a better gear progression so it wasnt so critically important.

although TOA kinda mucked that up where certain pieces of TOA gear were required to win as a group.

DAOC also had item destruction due to use.

 

WoW just has terrible gear progression and this game appears to suffer from the same thing. 1 level of gear difference in wow is a tremendous advantage to the person on top. Not to mention the idea that PvE gear that someone spent so much time to get is useless in PvP.

 

Weird concepts. So what if you have to raid to get your gear. Go raid.

 

 

DAOC suffered from its own issues but gear wasnt one of them for a long time.

[Angaurath]

 

If there wasn't this gear in a game with PVE you would be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids. Bioware will wake up and make pvp gear easy to get eventually. The complaint about gear over skill misses the point entirely, you let everyone get the gear so it can be about skill is what is actually going on.

 

A better solution would be to make PVE/Raid gear USELESS in PVP. Either code in a switch that shuts off the bonuses in warzones OR could some stats that only work against MOBS. In otherr words, expertise but ONLY for mobs.

[Carbonated]

I never played doac. I hear good things wish i did.

 

I miss vanilla wows gear progression for pvp - Just more stam. No haha you do nothing to me. Just "it takes a couple more hits to kill me".

[Nezis]

Agreed. I know for me the "carrot on a stick" mmo model has the exact opposite effect on me. It makes me want to quit, not stay subbed so I can waste my free time doing a grindfest.

 

But hey that is just me I know some people like the monotony of grinding the same stuff over and over.

 

 

EDIT: I never got to play DAOC but I know I really enjoyed Vanilla WoW pvp, skill seemed like it actually mattered before gear>skill started to become dominant in burning crusade.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Nezis

[corjoad]

A better solution would be to make PVE/Raid gear USELESS in PVP. Either code in a switch that shuts off the bonuses in warzones OR could some stats that only work against MOBS. In otherr words, expertise but ONLY for mobs.

 

Either solution is fine by me. But I fully support the premise. Gear should have a minimal impact on your pvp performance.

 

The only people that should have a problem with that are bads and mediocres who have gotten used to owning by being over geared.

[MatchpointServe]

A better solution would be to make PVE/Raid gear USELESS in PVP. Either code in a switch that shuts off the bonuses in warzones OR could some stats that only work against MOBS. In otherr words, expertise but ONLY for mobs.

 

I like the idea of making PvE gear with a stat like expertise for mobs.

 

So set up a system like this:

 

T1 PvE = ilvl 100, +500 balls rating

T2 PvE = ilvl 110, +750 balls rating

T3 PvE = ilvl 120, +1000 balls rating

 

As you get more +balls, your character becomes more ballsy, more manly, and better equipped to murder helpless Rancors and Mynocks.

 

Meanwhile, make PvP gear as follows (hopefully with a system other than RNG):

 

T1 PvP = ilvl 100

T2 PvP = ilvl 110

T3 PvP = ilvl 120

 

The only differences between the T sets are minor stat increases. So someone in full T3 PvP could fight someone in T1 PvP with only a tiny gear advantage, such that if the T1 PvP guy out maneuvers him, he can still win (think of 10-49 WZ's -- stats aren't equal, but you still have a fighting chance).

 

At the same time, make everything between PvP and PvE sets the same, save for +balls ratings. Why? Because Expertise/Resilience was implemented to quell PvE'ers who *****ed and moaned about people being able to get equal gear while playing at more "casual" levels. After all, it isn't fair that I spend 4 hours a night, 6 nights a week raiding to get a full set of end game gear 3 months later while he can soloqueue casually and get a full set too! The +balls rating will be required for PvE but meaningless for PvP. Since I stopped raiding after TBC and will never raid again, I couldn't care less. Personally, I'd be fine with the sets being equal and usable in both, but I doubt PvE'ers would allow that.

 

Overall, make them equal, so in PvP everybody is on an equal playing field and it's about skill and competition rather than who has the most expertise. Instead, BW ruined PvP altogether by making their game gear dependent.

 

Hah, who am I kidding. That's not just how they ruined PvP.

[Lerdoc]

WoW took the idea of Token Economy and drove it to the extreme. Everything in WoW is a grindfest. They even made PvP a grind. The world will never be the same.

 

The grind is great for some aspects of an MMO but not all.

 

There should be no grind in PvP...at least not for stuff that directly impacts PvP. If you wanna grind for an awesome mount then sure. If I grind for gear that I can then use to beat you even though you are better than I am...that's just stupid.

 

We can't go against each other just for fun anymore. No, now it's all about dailies, weeklies, champion gear, Battlemaster gear, then T4 T5 T6 T7 T8 T9 etc....

 

Make the game fun to play or most of us will quit. Dangling higher tier gear in our faces is a joke.

 

The developers here clearly were overly influenced by a single game...WoW.

 

You do realize that is basically a driving force for theme park MMOs? The endless chase for carrot on a stick. Do you know more tasty carrot for casual masses then better gear?

 

I wish there was a sandbox mmo made on the level of AAA theme park.

[Jiav]

WoW makes more money that's for sure. Having an EZ mode gear to look forward to in the future makes people resub

 

Skilled pvp in daoc. LOL. Majority of wow "pvpler" are too bad to reach 2,6k rating. Not even to mention 2,2k. Daoc had very little to do with true skill, but nostaglia glasses > all;).

Edited February 1, 2012 by Jiav

[Stncold]

DaoC was a great game and all, I love it to death, but when it came to PvP in that game, the winner generally boiled down to who struck first and who had CD's up.

 

Skill in DaoC only mattered when it came to 1v1's. In 8v8, whichever side got that initiating aoe mez off first won most of the time, and seeing the other group first was generally either a matter of luck, server lag being kind, or having a radar program.

 

 

It's still better than TOR though, where gear makes a big difference, to call DaoC the pinnacle of "skill-based pvp" is a laugh though. That title belong to Asheron's Call.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Stncold

[Buddhalux]

If you had ever 8 man'd in DAoC then you'd know that skill in timing, CC, counters, and kiting played huge rolls in whether or not you group surivives. If you didn't use your artifacts or ToA abilites at the right time you were dead. Saying that DAoC took no skill is pretty hilarious. DAoC took much more skill than WoW did for PvP/RvR.

[Jiav]

If you had ever 8 man'd in DAoC then you'd know that skill in timing, CC, counters, and kiting played huge rolls in whether or not you group surivives. If you didn't use your artifacts or ToA abilites at the right time you were dead. Saying that DAoC took no skill is pretty hilarious. DAoC took much more skill than WoW did for PvP/RvR.

 

You can basically say the same for high level arena pla. But from from my experience high rating arena> daoc. Sorry.

[Anthiel]

WoW took the idea of Token Economy and drove it to the extreme. Everything in WoW is a grindfest. They even made PvP a grind. The world will never be the same.

 

The grind is great for some aspects of an MMO but not all.

 

There should be no grind in PvP...at least not for stuff that directly impacts PvP. If you wanna grind for an awesome mount then sure. If I grind for gear that I can then use to beat you even though you are better than I am...that's just stupid.

 

We can't go against each other just for fun anymore. No, now it's all about dailies, weeklies, champion gear, Battlemaster gear, then T4 T5 T6 T7 T8 T9 etc....

 

Make the game fun to play or most of us will quit. Dangling higher tier gear in our faces is a joke.

 

The developers here clearly were overly influenced by a single game...WoW.

 

flaw in your commentary if you lose in pvp the guy who beat you for whatever reason for that moment was better than you and making up excuses dosent help your case.

[neurosisxeno]

DAoC was a piece of crap, there's a reason everyone left it. WoW may not have had the best system, but the underlying fact is they had the best game. Blizzard's level of polish allows them to get away with mediocre design and poor mechanics, because everything works flawlessly. There's no issues with ability delay, or people falling through floors, or quests not giving credit. That's why it's so successful. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional. Until you fix the bugs that make PvP a pain, you cannot innovate.

[Lugh]

Okay so players from other types of MMOs seem to misunderstand a couple of things.

 

In games that have raiding you have gear progression. PVE gear has been the bane of PVP in games that have both. Why? Because each raid tier is generally harder requiring higher ouptut, health and defenses. Raid drops are usually aimed at gearing players up for the next challenge.

So what happens when these players enter PVP with their powerful raid gear? At the end of vanilla wow players that raided end game content basically won any pvp by massive gear advantge.

 

So what games like WoW did to address this was release PVP gear that is at the same item level as the current raid gear. They also added a stat that made PVP gear better for PVP. Wow still has problems with powerful PVE items showing up in PVP.

 

What is different from the way swtor does gear and wow is that right now a casual player can get a full set of pvp gear in about two weeks in wow. There is a slightly better set that comes from rated games that takes a quite a bit longer to complete.

 

The ironic thing about this is that in rated pvp "pvp that matters" the gear difference is almost non-existant or very small. The two exceptions being a player who has a powerful pve item, and new characters that need to finish getting the basic set.

 

If there wasn't this gear in a game with PVE you would be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids. Bioware will wake up and make pvp gear easy to get eventually. The complaint about gear over skill misses the point entirely, you let everyone get the gear so it can be about skill is what is actually going on.

 

This was only somewhat true. Most wow pvpers were TERRIBLE at it. And in greens and blues from leveling I proved to them how bad they were all day long. Against 'EPIC PURPLZ'

 

It's not the gear it's you. If your margin of victory is so shallow that you need the extra 10% to win..well...you're sad.

[Masahiko]

DAoC was amazing but people would never put up with the CC that game had these days.

 

 

It's biggest thing was 3 factions to control faction imbalances. There were still servers that were bad but most stayed pretty even with things shifting back and forth month to month.

 

After we got the DR and 1 min immunity and dispels, i dont think it was that bad. At the beginning sitting there long enough to get a drink was pretty lame. Not to mention Stunguard.

 

I agree though people cant handle 4 sec now imagine those 9 sec stuns and 70 sec mez