BW had multiple MMO's to model after and....

[SirUrza]

It's going to be fun when GW2 comes out and people find out that GW2 has ZERO "end game content" and never will. Edited January 28, 2012 by SirUrza

[Striker]

I mostly disagree with you. I think they took most of the best aspects of past MMOs and left out the game ruining trash features.

 

 

Their end game is quite competitive with what is available currently in the MMO market. Which is both a good and a bad thing. Its good they have so much available. Most don't have nearly as much at release. But its still a let down because their ccurrent competition(WoW) has been a pile of dog **** lately and I expected much better not just to be equal.

 

The biggest issue is leveling speed. Which is too fast. A lot "lack of endgame" which exists elsewhere as well would be slowed down a lot if the leveling took longer.

[Cameirus]

It's going to be fun when GW2 comes out and people find out that GW2 has ZERO "end game content" and never will.

 

I think you misunderstand. It has a huge amount of endgame, as THE ENTIRE GAME is viable at "endgame".

 

What you mean is no "raids". and thats fine, its part of the game design. If your view of "engame" is purely "raids" then it may not be the game for you. Then again, try it, try to lose that "wow based" conditioning and give it a shot, you may like it.

[fungihoujo]

BW you had several MMO's to use as a reference to find out what worked and what did not. WoW obviously set the bar on many levels. But you had so many references and this is the end result? This is the best you could come up with when you had WoW, EQ, GW, DAOC, and Eve-Online to use as examples of great MMO's.

 

That is why so many people are upset. You had all this hype for this game. You even had references to find out what worked and what didn't. 300m budget and what we get as an end result is this? That is why there are so many rage posts BW.

 

What we have here is a great game lvl 1-49 and then a serious lack of end-game content. Thoughts?

 

People- Don't give us WoW, whatever you do we don't want WoW! No more clones of MMOs!

 

People now- Good lord we wanted WoW what's wrong with you BW why didn't you give us WoW!?!!

 

Oh these forums are rich.

[GregoryOnasi]

Obviously they felt KOTOR with a chat box was their best option

 

Could've made a kotor 3...

[Putok]

If WoW is the standard that so many foolishly believe, then every MMO should start with Everquest, then directly rip off at least 1 thing from every MMO that has existed put it all together and call it "new". WoW doesn't have anything original in it. The "new" Monk class is a JK/SW.

 

Hell, you could even go so far to say that Blizzard doesn't even have an original IP. Warcraft is a Warhammer rip off, Starcraft is Warhammer 40k/Command and Conquer, and Diablo is D&D (even some of the rulesets are identical). All of those IPs predate Blizzard. The only thing Blizzard is good at is taking other people good (popular) ideas and putting them together, then taking credit for it while all their fanboys blindly follow like sheep.

 

Yeah, that isn't a stretch at all...

 

That's like calling everything in the fantasy genre nothing but a Tolkien ripoff *roll eyes*

 

Blind haters are no better than blind fanboys, and if you can't see the reasons that Blizzard titles have nearly universally been regarded as the best in their genre on release, I think you probably fall into the blind hater category.

 

They have been revolutionary and incredibly successful not because they completely broke the mold, but because they evolved a large number of things at once, and generally did away with the things that people didn't like about that genre and bundled it up into a very polished package that manages to be highly accessible while still having a very high skill cap. They make games that appeal to many different kinds of players with many different skill levels and play styles.

 

Starcraft is not the most successful and enduring RTS of all time because the entire gaming community is composed of rabid fanboys. The same goes for Diablo and the various Warcraft games. No game will appeal to absolutely everyone, but Blizzard very consistently comes closer to doing so than pretty much any other major developer.

 

Failing to acknowledge what they do right is not sensible.

[Putok]

People- Don't give us WoW, whatever you do we don't want WoW! No more clones of MMOs!

 

People now- Good lord we wanted WoW what's wrong with you BW why didn't you give us WoW!?!!

 

Oh these forums are rich.

 

What people wanted was everything they liked about WoW, without all the stuff they didn't like.

 

The reason WoW did well is because it took most of the stuff people liked about previous MMOs, evolved some of it, and got rid of most of the stuff people didn't like.

[GregoryOnasi]

Follow and straight-up copy are two different things. http://i.imgur.com/UmcMV.jpg

 

Its ok to model your game after other ones, but to totally XEROX another game (and poorly I might add) with less features and different graphics is a recipe for failure. That is what this game is.

 

And then alienate your true fans by making a ****** mmo with no end game, and not a great RPG that helps close the story to one of the greatest gaming series ever...

[GregoryOnasi]

The gameplay isn't similar to KOTOR.

KOTOR used a d20 dungeons & dragons system, with skills (awareness, etc), feats (Lightsaber Focus, Lightsaber Specialization, etc).

You had 6 MEANINGFUL attributes.

You had several types of damage (energy, sonic, thermal, electric, etc)

You had several types of defenses (armor, willpower, fortitude, reflex)

 

Why would BioWare throw all of that away, to replace it with:

- 4 primary stats of wich you only ever use 1 (why do the other 3 even show up in your character sheet?)

- Old WoW Talent trees with different names

- Old WoW Skill ranks

- Old WoW secondary stat style (armor, block, dodge, etc) with different names?

 

KOTOR allowed great customization of your character. You could go Dexterity or Strength with Lightsaber, specialize in Power Attack or Flurry... and so on.

You had Grenades, personal shields, etc.

 

Now, you create a character with specific gear, with stats decided for you, where all you gotta do is follow the path laid in front of you and all will be well.

What customization is there in this game? Honestly?

 

This drove it home for me, and that is why I will not be resubbing this month, and probably not ever play another bioware game until they make a Kotor 3.

[RamataKahn]

i like that bw is actually doing something different to break away from the mold.

 

bwahahahahahahhaaaaa!!!!!!

[PinkSugar]

I actually love to see people complain about this game.

 

It reminds me that even though people dislike it, they will still pay for it.

 

You must not have played SWG back in the day? Get enough people crying and they eventually start a revolution that can tear a game to shreds.

 

Veteran Gamers know it, Bioware Knows it, Blizzard knows it, and Sony definitely knows it.

 

Bioware can see that players are unhappy, they just don't know where to start which is (my guess) why they have not responded.

Edited January 28, 2012 by PinkSugar

[Phenyr]

BW you had several MMO's to use as a reference to find out what worked and what did not. WoW obviously set the bar on many levels. But you had so many references and this is the end result? This is the best you could come up with when you had WoW, EQ, GW, DAOC, and Eve-Online to use as examples of great MMO's.

 

That is why so many people are upset. You had all this hype for this game. You even had references to find out what worked and what didn't. 300m budget and what we get as an end result is this? That is why there are so many rage posts BW.

 

What we have here is a great game lvl 1-49 and then a serious lack of end-game content. Thoughts?

 

The end-game content is normal for a brand new entry on the market. I try to understand all these players that keep puting this question?

 

What these players expecting, a brand new entry on the market with already 4 xpacs? Seriously now? Get real.

 

Game does not have 20 raids and 100 dungeons but its decent for time been. More will come with time and this is story driven mmorpg best is to enjoy the story. If that does not fit for some players and expecting tones of end-game content I suppose is just to play something else in the mean time till they do 4 xpacs...

[Jumajin]

The gameplay isn't similar to KOTOR.

KOTOR used a d20 dungeons & dragons system, with skills (awareness, etc), feats (Lightsaber Focus, Lightsaber Specialization, etc).

You had 6 MEANINGFUL attributes.

You had several types of damage (energy, sonic, thermal, electric, etc)

You had several types of defenses (armor, willpower, fortitude, reflex)

 

Why would BioWare throw all of that away, to replace it with:

- 4 primary stats of wich you only ever use 1 (why do the other 3 even show up in your character sheet?)

- Old WoW Talent trees with different names

- Old WoW Skill ranks

- Old WoW secondary stat style (armor, block, dodge, etc) with different names?

 

KOTOR allowed great customization of your character. You could go Dexterity or Strength with Lightsaber, specialize in Power Attack or Flurry... and so on.

You had Grenades, personal shields, etc.

 

Now, you create a character with specific gear, with stats decided for you, where all you gotta do is follow the path laid in front of you and all will be well.

What customization is there in this game? Honestly?

 

 

That is exactly what I've been meaning when I say that Bioware tried to combine their single player experience inside an MMO shell, and neither half of the hybrid was done nearly as well as it should have been.

 

Is the game fun? Yes, but to a point. Is it going to keep me more than 2-3 months? Sadly, I can't see that being the case. Which is a shame, because I expected so much more from Bioware. Then again, I'm convinced I was mentally living in the past of Bioware, pre-EA.

 

Far different studios.

[Xabos]

BW you had several MMO's to use as a reference to find out what worked and what did not. WoW obviously set the bar on many levels. But you had so many references and this is the end result? This is the best you could come up with when you had WoW, EQ, GW, DAOC, and Eve-Online to use as examples of great MMO's.

 

That is why so many people are upset. You had all this hype for this game. You even had references to find out what worked and what didn't. 300m budget and what we get as an end result is this? That is why there are so many rage posts BW.

 

What we have here is a great game lvl 1-49 and then a serious lack of end-game content. Thoughts?

 

Yay! You win the originality post award. I have definitely never heard this before.

[raptured]

BW you had several MMO's to use as a reference to find out what worked and what did not. WoW obviously set the bar on many levels. But you had so many references and this is the end result? This is the best you could come up with when you had WoW, EQ, GW, DAOC, and Eve-Online to use as examples of great MMO's.

 

That is why so many people are upset. You had all this hype for this game. You even had references to find out what worked and what didn't. 300m budget and what we get as an end result is this? That is why there are so many rage posts BW.

 

What we have here is a great game lvl 1-49 and then a serious lack of end-game content. Thoughts?

 

You can roll another character for now until they make more end game content. I am enjoying the game for what it is. I am pretty happy with it.. its about what i expected it to be. I am disappointed with the over all environments.

[raptured]

That is exactly what I've been meaning when I say that Bioware tried to combine their single player experience inside an MMO shell, and neither half of the hybrid was done nearly as well as it should have been.

 

Is the game fun? Yes, but to a point. Is it going to keep me more than 2-3 months? Sadly, I can't see that being the case. Which is a shame, because I expected so much more from Bioware. Then again, I'm convinced I was mentally living in the past of Bioware, pre-EA.

 

Far different studios.

 

I knew the people who would spend a crap load of time playing the game daily probably would not like SWTOR. The game is built for people with full time jobs that come home play for a couple hours and off to bed. I am enjoying SWTOR thus far signed up for 3 months.

[DrownedOut]

One thing I have disliked is that I cannot recall a single instance in a story that allowed me to complete the story without combat.

 

I have tried so many times to have dialogue conclude any portion of a story and it has not happened. It doesn't matter of I choose light side, dark side, or try to remain neutral, you simply cannot talk your way out of any situation.

 

Kind of disappointed in that because it removes a huge aspect of actual roleplaying games.

 

If I remember right you could talk your way out of situations in KOTOR, such that you could complete a story arc without having it end in combat. And still get experience for it.

Edited January 28, 2012 by DrownedOut

[Cancrizans]

Yeah, that isn't a stretch at all...

 

That's like calling everything in the fantasy genre nothing but a Tolkien ripoff *roll eyes*

 

Blind haters are no better than blind fanboys, and if you can't see the reasons that Blizzard titles have nearly universally been regarded as the best in their genre on release, I think you probably fall into the blind hater category.

 

They have been revolutionary and incredibly successful not because they completely broke the mold, but because they evolved a large number of things at once, and generally did away with the things that people didn't like about that genre and bundled it up into a very polished package that manages to be highly accessible while still having a very high skill cap. They make games that appeal to many different kinds of players with many different skill levels and play styles.

 

Starcraft is not the most successful and enduring RTS of all time because the entire gaming community is composed of rabid fanboys. The same goes for Diablo and the various Warcraft games. No game will appeal to absolutely everyone, but Blizzard very consistently comes closer to doing so than pretty much any other major developer.

 

Failing to acknowledge what they do right is not sensible.

 

This is a reasonably fair and balanced understanding of what is good about WoW and why a lot of people are comfortable playing an MMO that is reasonably similar. I wish even 5% of the posts that BASH SWTOR in favor of WoW even had 1/4 of the balanced and fair understanding of what it actually is WoW brings to the table instead of the incredible bananas perspectives we usually see those kind of posts.

 

The issues I and I think a lot of old school MMO/RPG players have with WoW are that it is largely responsible for destroying the ideas that were at the core of MMOs to begin with...or at the very least the core of the RPGs these games are based on, and replacing it with what became more of a business model than anything else, the purpose of which was to reel in as many customers as possible based on the social interactivity of the format, i.e. the fact that it was an enhanced version of internet chat rooms with stuff you could do on the side and greater ways to interact with others...than any attempt to really care about or foster the imaginative, intelligent and constructive gameplay RPGs were known for.

 

So basically I can appreciate the polish that most people seem to feel is "core" to MMOs...but I also realize that that polish also came as part of a process that destroyed what I consider the best parts of online RPGs...whether they carrier the somewhat meaningless "MMORPG" tag or not.

[Arctorius]

If WoW is the standard that so many foolishly believe, then every MMO should start with Everquest, then directly rip off at least 1 thing from every MMO that has existed put it all together and call it "new". WoW doesn't have anything original in it. The "new" Monk class is a JK/SW.

 

Hell, you could even go so far to say that Blizzard doesn't even have an original IP. Warcraft is a Warhammer rip off, Starcraft is Warhammer 40k/Command and Conquer, and Diablo is D&D (even some of the rulesets are identical). All of those IPs predate Blizzard. The only thing Blizzard is good at is taking other people good (popular) ideas and putting them together, then taking credit for it while all their fanboys blindly follow like sheep.

 

Take what works and put it together into one great game.... what a horrible thing to do. And how dare we "Sheeple" enjoy playing a game that is fun when we could take a broken game and play the fanboy by claiming that it's the games issues that give it the character you like.

[Cancrizans]

One thing I have disliked is that I cannot recall a single instance in a story that allowed me to complete the story without combat.

 

I have tried so many times to have dialogue conclude any portion of a story and it has not happened. It doesn't matter of I choose light side, dark side, or try to remain neutral, you simply cannot talk your way out of any situation.

 

Kind of disappointed in that because it removes a huge aspect of actual roleplaying games.

 

If I remember right you could talk your way out of situations in KOTOR, such that you could complete a story arc without having it end in combat. And still get experience for it.

 

I agree 100%...and I think you as I probably represent a diminishing part of the playerbase in that we actually care about the large amount of content that is part of a real RPG experience...as in making story choices that do not involve combat, as in exploration, as in playing the game from a perspective that isn't entirely consumed by a mentality of getting gear and other material garbage to secure our egos in the game world...

 

Unfortunately most people seem to want simplistic, single dimensional gameplay, as long as they can have a means to make themselves appear better than others... by gaining a "rank" or "measure of performance". That's why the majority of MMO gameplay has become about status chasing...finding some way to pat yourself on the back at the expense of others, whether it is raid progression or gear acquisition, PvP dominance, crafting superiority or gaining titles/completionist style play.

 

I don't mean to flame anyones game play preferences, I think it just sucks that the ideals that the entire genre were based on ended up being thrown out the window for the exact opposite style of play.

 

Kind of stinks that this nonsense has eaten a huge chunk out of the real fun that RPGs are about...the kind of fun a lot of Bioware's own games like NWN and KotOR exemplified.

[Putok]

This is a reasonably fair and balanced understanding of what is good about WoW and why a lot of people are comfortable playing an MMO that is reasonably similar. I wish even 5% of the posts that BASH SWTOR in favor of WoW even had 1/4 of the balanced and fair understanding of what it actually is WoW brings to the table instead of the incredible bananas perspectives we usually see those kind of posts.

 

The issues I and I think a lot of old school MMO/RPG players have with WoW are that it is largely responsible for destroying the ideas that were at the core of MMOs to begin with...or at the very least the core of the RPGs these games are based on, and replacing it with what became more of a business model than anything else, the purpose of which was to reel in as many customers as possible based on the social interactivity of the format, i.e. the fact that it was an enhanced version of internet chat rooms with stuff you could do on the side and greater ways to interact with others...than any attempt to really care about or foster the imaginative, intelligent and constructive gameplay RPGs were known for.

 

So basically I can appreciate the polish that most people seem to feel is "core" to MMOs...but I also realize that that polish also came as part of a process that destroyed what I consider the best parts of online RPGs...whether they carrier the somewhat meaningless "MMORPG" tag or not.

 

I played MMOs before WoW. I still have fond memories of DAoC.

 

I can definitely appreciate the ways WoW changed the MMO genre, good and bad.

 

For whatever reason, it's a very polarizing topic. Many "WoW haters" are completely unable to see that good things from that game, and many fanboys refuse to see the bad.

 

At the moment, a lot of WoW players are ready for a change. They want a change of pace. They don't necessarily want a radical departure, but they want something that's new, and that doesn't have the things about WoW that piss them off. They also don't want it to lack the things that they like about WoW. It's something Blizzard managed to do very well when WoW was released that no one else quite has down yet.

 

I think a lot of those same players would have a very difficult time describing what they do and do not like about WoW. "Too linear" has been one of the biggest complaints I've heard about both Cata and this game, which makes me think a lot of people are ready for something that's a little bit more sandboxish.

[marshalleck]

One thing I have disliked is that I cannot recall a single instance in a story that allowed me to complete the story without combat.

 

I have tried so many times to have dialogue conclude any portion of a story and it has not happened. It doesn't matter of I choose light side, dark side, or try to remain neutral, you simply cannot talk your way out of any situation.

 

Kind of disappointed in that because it removes a huge aspect of actual roleplaying games.

 

If I remember right you could talk your way out of situations in KOTOR, such that you could complete a story arc without having it end in combat. And still get experience for it.

 

 

I can think of two off the top of my head, both Republic side.

 

1) Go to cantina to arrest crime boss. It's possible to [Force persuade] him into turning himself in; don't know if non-Force wielders can resolve this one.

 

2) On Tython, Jedi Knights can talk their way out of a fight during a certain part of their class story.

Edited January 29, 2012 by marshalleck

[Norbix]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this point yet but you can't really model an MMO on another one because all MMO's keep changing. TOR was in development for like 5 years or something, so it didn't have too much to model itself after around that time. To me it seems pretty impossible to copy other games if they're changing just as fast as you're developing your own game.

[Toweleeeie]

Ill just post this thought here since it fits with the title.

 

How long have games been doing shadows? Why are we still stuck with moving, jaggy pixelated shadows in a 2012 game?

 

If you cant figure this out BW, just give us back the circle shadows under my feet from 95, thanks!

[Chromiie]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this point yet but you can't really model an MMO on another one because all MMO's keep changing. TOR was in development for like 5 years or something, so it didn't have too much to model itself after around that time. To me it seems pretty impossible to copy other games if they're changing just as fast as you're developing your own game.

 

But that doesn't mean Bioware couldn't look at other MMO's and see what went wrong and what went right.

 

Ilum is basicaly one big version of Hellfire Peninsula's towers. If Bioware could have just googled the problems from it maybe we wouldn't see people trading caps like before or just farming kills off each other. Some servers are even doing this.