Supposed "Skill Based" 1-49 Bracket

[Dravinian]

Uh, no it doesn't. Because the first sentence was regarding the person I quoted who was talking about 50s pvp and rolling Imperials as Republic. The second sentence was about creating a special bracket for lowbies who don't seek to level, gear, etc. to be competitive.

 

So again, how was that contradictory? If my wording was unclear, then my mistake. If you misread it, your mistake. Either way, not contradictory.

 

Sorry I had to point that out to you.

 

You said the first sentence in response to someone saying that in lower brackets Republic are now winning more.

 

His sentence that you quoted:

 

"Funny. The Republic win rate on my server went from 10-20% to 80-90%. Looks like Imps aren't so tough when they don't have 3-4x as many 50s as us to carry them."

 

Since this can only mean the non-level 50 bracket, since they would have exactly the same number of 50s carrying them in the 50 bracket, and the same imbalance in regard to gear.

 

You said the second sentence in regard to lower level brackets being mediocre, based on some idea you have pulled out of thin air.

 

You were referring to the same brackets in both sentences, and they were contradictory. If a person is winning due to organisation, gear or skill in a lower bracket their opponent must over come that, and therefore must improve.

 

Do you even know what you are saying?

[Klerke]

Why? If everyone was equal skilled why even bother? You're not better than anyone. The entire point of competitive gaming is to be better than someone. You seek advantages to be able to beat people. That's the point. Tactical advantages, gear advantages, class advantages, level advantages, it's all part of the game. If it weren't, it wouldn't be in there in the first place.

 

Someone who beats you because of gear beat you because they spent time farming gear. Someone who beats you because of level beat you because they spent time leveling. Someone who beats you because of skill beat you because they react faster, have better class knowledge, and spent more time learning the game or practicing than you.

 

Etc., etc., etc.

 

but if you are all equal you can work even harder to be better (gear, tactics, class) all the things you says low lvls learns by playing agains higher lvls.

 

now you can improve yourself even more by playing agains players who have "learned" the same as you and own even more.

 

if i'm following your logic correctly

[Krylaancelo]

But isn't destroying poor opponents boring after awhile? Competition is not only showing you're better, but actually having a challenge.

 

I love PvP, never find it boring regardless of who my opponent is unless s/he did not choose to PvP. You joined a WZ, thus you chose to PvP. You are a willing participate in the fighting. I don't gank people because I don't think it's fun. If you choose to fight me I will fight you with everything I have because anything less is disrespectful.

[Horsemaster]

TL;DR

 

What's your problem again? You're mad that people with epic gear and a ton of expertise aren't fighting level 10s anymore? You think that without this, people cannot improve? The logic of this escapes me.

 

More importantly, why are YOU mad?

[Krylaancelo]

but if you are all equal you can work even harder to be better (gear, tactics, class) all the things you says low lvls learns by playing agains higher lvls.

 

now you can improve yourself even more by playing agains players who have "learned" the same as you and own even more.

 

if i'm following your logic correctly

 

My issue isn't with me at all. I'm perfectly happy. I'm trying to get the 10-49s to see things my way at least a little. They don't seem to want to.

[CarolLewis]

I feel proud

 

I answered "no" to every single one of those questions except can you use consumables(which I don't since I am lazy :/ I have a few stacks sitting in my bags, but I would have to figure out what they do since honestly I just read that they don't vendor for money and went "I will think about this when I want to think")

 

Can I get better at playing? theoretically yes, however allow me to rephrase this question more appropriately, "can I get better at playing without committing an inappropriate amount of time to the game", and the answer to that is no. I am bad at video games, and if I am going to practice something hard, I am going to go do my math homework, since that's hard(well, not at the moment, but, normally) and generally more rewarding/interesting. I have maybe 2-3 hours every 3-4 days to commit to this game, I want to relax, not train or condition.

 

Can I group with friends? no, I have no friends and no one likes me

 

Can I gear myself up? No, I am not going to spend time figuring out proper gearing for this game. If it isn't spoon fed to me I am not going to screw with it. If I see a drop with higher str(my main stat) then I equip it, otherwise I vendor it. It's like gearing up, only without thinking. Mostly the same with weapons, although I did buy a hilt once since I ran across it.

 

Can I level to 50? nope no time.

 

Now, some questions for OP

 

How does my not being level cap hurt you? Why do you HAVE to compel me to level at YOUR rate? I preferred the no differences between 50's and non-50's since I had some friends who turboed to 50 and I wanted to play with them(they didn't want to play with me, but I get to dream, right? also they wouldn't have been able to play at all if it had been split), but now the gear differences were getting gross.

 

So yeah, you somehow feel the evangelical right to kill my char to make me want to be a better player.

 

That isn't your right and the sooner you get out of that mindset and let go of the ideal of punishing people for not being high level, the happier you will be, I guarantee it.

 

So thank you bioware, for letting me relax in my off time. And for timing things reasonable well so I got everything I wanted.

 

So FWIW/YMMV/ETC., you earned your rewards by committing lot's of time. Congrats.

 

I can't.

Straight up can't.

If I could, I wouldn't want to.

So yes, I want special treatment. For me. And the thousands(tens of thousands? hundreds?) who CAN'T commit the level of time and energy into this game that you have because we have other commitments/desires.

But seriously, congrats on gearing up, the top-tier gear looks awesome, I hope to get it over the summer when I am able to play again(have to cancel since I can haz no timez).

Edited January 19, 2012 by CarolLewis

[RaulTheConquerer]

Taking 50s out of your bracket doesn't make it anymore skill based than it was before. It just allows you to be lazy in leveling and gearing whereas at 50 it is a lot less forgiving.

 

Congratulations on getting the playing field catered to mediocrity. I applaud you.

 

We should make it so no one higher than 49 can play warzones in my bracket cuz those high levels are so unfair to play with. It's their own fault for leveling so much. They should be ashamed and ridiculed for using their advantage against us! Get rid of them and then we can play skill-based games!!!

 

We should also make it so no one taller than 6' can play basketball in my bracket cuz those tall guys are so unfair to play with. It's their own fault for growing so much. They should be ashamed and ridiculed for using their advantage against us! Get rid of them and then we can play skill-based games!!!

 

The difference being, of course, that you can level and gear yourself whereas a short person can't make himself grow. But man, those unfair advantages are so unfair. Everyone should be equal at everything!!! Especially when the only difference in the equality is being lazy and not putting in the time to be good. I should be able to be awesome without effort! If someone works harder and puts more time in than me, I deserve to be their equal still!

 

Let's remove bolster entirely and see how "skill based" your game is. LOL!

 

In before random posts of "QQ more," "bad 50 can't beat up on level 10's," etc.

 

Sorry but there's no excuse for being a wimp and then being mad and outraged because you're a wimp without doing anything to better yourself. Stop blaming the game, the developers, the level 50s, expertise gear, and/or the enemy players. Maybe look within and try to improve instead. The world may be a better place if people did this more often instead of crying and whining and being entitled to their own little world.

 

Also if you were "so skilled," you would be able to beat a 50 anyway. Cuz you're elite, right?

 

You can't honestly answer "No" to any of these questions:

-Can you level to 50?

-Can you gear yourself up?

-Can you use consumables?

-Can you make a "premade" group with friends?

-Can you work on being a better player skill-wise?

 

If you can't answer No to any of those, why is the game at fault? Why aren't you at fault?

 

Guess I would cry too if I now had to actually work at farming valor. Bye lowbies.

[Krylaancelo]

You said the first sentence in response to someone saying that in lower brackets Republic are now winning more.

 

His sentence that you quoted:

 

"Funny. The Republic win rate on my server went from 10-20% to 80-90%. Looks like Imps aren't so tough when they don't have 3-4x as many 50s as us to carry them."

 

Since this can only mean the non-level 50 bracket, since they would have exactly the same number of 50s carrying them in the 50 bracket, and the same imbalance in regard to gear.

 

You said the second sentence in regard to lower level brackets being mediocre, based on some idea you have pulled out of thin air.

 

You were referring to the same brackets in both sentences, and they were contradictory. If a person is winning due to organisation, gear or skill in a lower bracket their opponent must over come that, and therefore must improve.

 

Do you even know what you are saying?

 

Ah, then the misreading was on my part. I thought he was referencing the 50s bracket for some reason. Responding to many posts, probably didn't read as clearly as I should have.

 

You win. <--- Not sarcastic, actually relenting.

 

I'd have to re-read to change my response to him, there's a lot of posts coming in, I'll be honest, I probably won't.

[Gohr-]

1. Who said to skip all quests and grind? You can't complete your class quests until 50 (or at least high 40s) anyway, so yes, you have to get to 50 to fully enjoy the story.

 

2. I suppose, but I still don't see the point of covering for weakness because you refuse to take it upon yourself to get stronger.

 

3. Probably is but why should things be balanced for someone is is clearly weaker? Why should a level 10 be able to fight a level 20, 30, or 40 on equal ground? S/he shouldn't in my opinion. You're weaker.

 

4. Completely disagree, you're just choosing not to see them and instead infer a bunch of things I didn't say.

 

Why shouldn´t a level 10 be able to fight a level 20,30 or 40 on equal ground? You´re still fresh meat if somebody gets you outside a WZ. Bolster system is just a really innovative idea which seems to work good for a lot of people. So why gimp it. The progression will be steep enough at 50 when you get steamrolled by equipped 50s (which i don´t disagree). Endgame is a point when you have to think about getting stronger whereas leveling time is just to have some fun - be it pvp or pve. But as this is just a subjective point, I will hand it to you that we won´t reach an agreement here. I, like many people, like the system, you don´t.

 

So let´s look at you post. I kinda was pissed but perhaps i misunderstood your intention first.

 

Sorry but there's no excuse for being a wimp and then being mad and outraged because you're a wimp without doing anything to better yourself. Stop blaming the game, the developers, the level 50s, expertise gear, and/or the enemy players. Maybe look within and try to improve instead. The world may be a better place if people did this more often instead of crying and whining and being entitled to their own little world. [/Quote]

 

[/Quote]Taking 50s out of your bracket doesn't make it anymore skill based than it was before. It just allows you to be lazy in leveling and gearing whereas at 50 it is a lot less forgiving.[/Quote]

 

Nice point. So everybody has to get to level 50 as fast as possible to gear up so that he/she can begin to have fun? It´s exactly what I did say that nobody is entitled to press a gameplay on people, especially when you already get that stuff as soon as somebody hits 50. And it´s not about lazy. Some guys take more time for leveling, marvel the landscape or whatever. I´m not one of them, but I can understand that they like to have a PvP bracket in which they can compete. See it as a Casual/Newbie/Leveling bracket if u like.

As soon as you put in 50s it´s pointless to join before getting to 50 (at least if the others are equipped) and you could as well limit all pvp to level 50 only. You won´t get better, you won´t do any good for your team and you won´t have fun - so why play.

 

You can't honestly answer "No" to any of these questions:

-Can you level to 50?

-Can you gear yourself up?

-Can you use consumables?

-Can you make a "premade" group with friends?

-Can you work on being a better player skill-wise?

 

-Sure. Already am.

-Sure. Already am.

-Sure. Already am.

-Sure. Only point I have to agree with you. As long as you fight 50 pugs you might stand a chance with a tight-knit group of lowies. Still you´d be hard pressed and if you see more than 3 people of the same guild you can as well leave the game.

-Sure. But as stated above you won´t get better when you just get steamrolled by 50s.

 

Imo, introducing a 50s bracket was one of the first PvP changes, bioware did right. Sure it sucks that you now have endless waiting times but is it better to massacre the team with more 'lowies' in it?

[RealAeiouy]

My issue isn't with me at all. I'm perfectly happy. I'm trying to get the 10-49s to see things my way at least a little. They don't seem to want to.

 

Some of us know more about pvp and have more experience than you and don't really need your unsolicited advice especially when the foundation is so far offbase

[Edex]

Here is what it comes down to with 50s

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nj6jRhPNygA5jVXNyoA/SIG=120gsrjpl/EXP=1327038074/**http%3a//www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=owzhYNcd4OM

[Krylaancelo]

Some of us know more about pvp and have more experience than you and don't really need your unsolicited advice especially when the foundation is so far offbase

 

Feel free to not read my thread then. You solicited it by clicking on it. Just saying.

 

If you have more pvp knowledge and/or experience, feel free to share some of it instead of making a vague appeals to authority. Thank you.

[Xienive]

Why? If everyone was equal skilled why even bother? You're not better than anyone. The entire point of competitive gaming is to be better than someone. You seek advantages to be able to beat people. That's the point. Tactical advantages, gear advantages, class advantages, level advantages, it's all part of the game. If it weren't, it wouldn't be in there in the first place.

 

Someone who beats you because of gear beat you because they spent time farming gear. Someone who beats you because of level beat you because they spent time leveling. Someone who beats you because of skill beat you because they react faster, have better class knowledge, and spent more time learning the game or practicing than you.

Etc., etc., etc.

 

All those advantages are still in 1-49, cool huh? And besides lvl, the other 2 advantages are in there as well at 50's bracket.

[Edex]

And fyi i double checked.. 40 gear has no expertise still

[Krylaancelo]

All those advantages are still in 1-49, cool huh? And besides lvl, the other 2 advantages are in there as well at 50's bracket.

 

Yup, but that the "special" group of people gets to be exempt from dealing with that other group. So really, not nearly as much. You guys even said it yourself: Dealing with a 49 isn't nearly as "bad" as dealing with a 50.

 

That's my point. I think you should have to deal with the "baddest."

 

It seems to be an opinion not widely shared here. I'm okay with that.

[Bovinity]

You can be ok with it, but don't misuse words like "competitive" when talking about a geared level 50 smashing some poor lowbies. That's not competitive, that's the very opposite of what a competition is.

[Xienive]

Yup, but that the "special" group of people gets to be exempt from dealing with that other group. So really, not nearly as much. You guys even said it yourself: Dealing with a 49 isn't nearly as "bad" as dealing with a 50.

 

That's my point. I think you should have to deal with the "baddest."

 

It seems to be an opinion not widely shared here. I'm okay with that.

 

Your certainly free to have whatever opinion you wish. The reason I personally think this is a good thing, is because the game is still just now starting...but a year or so down on the road, maybe longer maybe shorter...and almost every single person in WZ's will be lvl 50 with the best PVP gear and that will stop new players from wanting to PVP.

 

This is pretty much exactly what happened with the BG's on EQII in some of the lower tiers and it pretty much kept going on until BG's would not pop at all. And if they did you were fighting the same people every single match.

[Zangi]

My issue isn't with me at all. I'm perfectly happy. I'm trying to get the 10-49s to see things my way at least a little. They don't seem to want to.

 

Maybe cause its not fun getting 2-5 shot? Essentially making the 1-49 levels in warzone the last thing you'd want to do? If there is always a few level 50 with high expertise gear in a warzone... who wants to play with the big boys when they take you down with so little effort?

 

Then, when you finally hit 50, you still have to take the 2-5 shots until you get enough gear to at least take a few more hits before dying... while all the way progressing up to equal gear.

 

Later, Bioware introduces a higher tier of PvP gear and the late comers to the game have an even bigger gulf to climb up...

 

Working as intended?

[Krylaancelo]

You can be ok with it, but don't misuse words like "competitive" when talking about a geared level 50 smashing some poor lowbies. That's not competitive, that's the very opposite of what a competition is.

 

com·pe·ti·tion

noun

1. the act of competing; rivalry for supremacy, a prize, etc.: The competition between the two teams was bitter.

2. a contest for some prize, honor, or advantage: Both girls entered the competition.

3. the rivalry offered by a competitor: The small merchant gets powerful competition from the chain stores.

4. a competitor or competitors: What is your competition offering?

5. Sociology . rivalry between two or more persons or groups for an object desired in common, usually resulting in a victor and a loser but not necessarily involving the destruction of the latter.

 

Seems to fit to me. *Shrugs*

 

There's no special formula or some special reason why people on one side would get no 50s on their team ever and the other side always does. It's all luck. Plus I loved queuing with my lowbie friends, we still destroyed enemy teams despite the fact that I was the only 50 and we were against other 50s.

 

You guys are acting like it was always a team of all 50s vs a team of all non 50s. I'm willing to bet that didn't happen nearly as often as people like to say it did.

[Krylaancelo]

Maybe cause its not fun getting 2-5 shot? Essentially making the 1-49 levels in warzone the last thing you'd want to do? If there is always a few level 50 with high expertise gear in a warzone... who wants to play with the big boys when they take you down with so little effort?

 

Then, when you finally hit 50, you still have to take the 2-5 shots until you get enough gear to at least take a few more hits before dying... while all the way progressing up to equal gear.

 

Later, Bioware introduces a higher tier of PvP gear and the late comers to the game have an even bigger gulf to climb up...

 

Working as intended?

 

I can't discuss their future plans for PvP gear as I really don't know. I'm going to guess it will be something like WoW's system where the old gear becomes more readily available and the new gear is hard to get again. The gap can be decently large, true, I agree. It certainly isn't insurmountable though, nor is it not something that can be overcome with good playing and hard work.

 

I'm a huge fan of hard work. I think you should want to get better constantly and strive for new heights because you see how much stronger someone is than you. I'm not at the top, btw, either, I'm not a battlemaster. I do enjoy the game still even though I get beat down by the BMs. I keep trying to do better every WZ I enter and every time I go to Ilum.

 

I just wish more people shared those thoughts instead of saying things like "remove the PvP gear" or "make me a new bracket" or "create valor brackets." You should be trying to improve your playing and not just your handicap.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Krylaancelo

[Bovinity]

So you think Anderson Silva vs. an out of shape guy off the street is "competitive MMA"?

 

You think that Jeff Gordon in his NASCAR vehicle vs. some random guy in his stock Ford Taurus is "competitive racing"?

 

You think that Viswanathan Anand versus some guy that doesn't know a bishop from a rook is "competitive chess"?

 

You think that someone like NesTea versus some random grandpa is "competitive StarCraft"?

 

Just because two people are playing a game together doesn't make it competitive at all. When victory is a foregone conclusion and one side simply has an overwhelming advantage, it's not competition and no serious competitive organization or body would take such matchups seriously or even bother allowing them.

[Lazorous]

Wow, you sound like a self-absorbed person without any idea of how hypocritical you sound. I'll point a few things out.

 

Sorry but there's no excuse for being a wimp and then being mad and outraged because you're a wimp without doing anything to better yourself. Stop blaming the game, the developers, the level 50s, expertise gear, and/or the enemy players. Maybe look within and try to improve instead. The world may be a better place if people did this more often instead of crying and whining and being entitled to their own little world.

 

Speaking of people QQ'ing and whinging about being entitled into their own little world, lets look at your post. What exactly are you doing? QQ'ing and Whining, yep.

 

If you really were as "elite" as you claimed, then you would take whatever the developers decided to do to THEIR game, and adapt to it. Instead, you create a whine post just like the people you're trying to attack.

 

Also if you were "so skilled," you would be able to beat a 50 anyway. Cuz you're elite, right?

 

If you think top end gear and expertise doesn't play any factor at all, you either have no clue how this game works, or you're just hiding your interest to jump at lowbies.

 

If all levels can have the opportunity to stack as much expertise and stim packs as a lvl 50 can, then you may have a point. But considering they can't, your rant is pointless. Sure they can level, but it's obvious that until they reach 50, they will always be at a disadvantage to what they can get.

 

In order to demonstrate true skill, you have to take out the variable of gear, or at least have them relatively comparable. By completely trumping someone's gear and character abilities, you have a distinct advantage.

 

If you had a gun, and all I had was a knife, tell me how your skill is better?

 

If you still don't believe gear and expertise makes a difference, then you're just being blind to an obvious flaw in the system. Take this as an example. A non-50 BH standing around just spamming tracer missiles will get wrecked by my 39 Vanguard. Using the exact same strategy against a 50 fully geared BH spamming tracer missiles and I could die within 3-4 hits, if that. That isn't an example of skill, but of superior gear that I cannot acquire for another 11 levels.

 

And if you're so pro, what exactly are you whining about anyway? The longer queue times? Is that it? Really?

[Madmage]

Bzzzzt Wrong.

 

A Lv49 has:

 

1) Access to all of their abilities at max level. A Lv10 only has what they entered the Fleet with.

 

2) Access to their full spec -1 point. A Lv10 doesn't even have a spec given that it's one 1 point.

 

3) Better gear than your Fresh Lv10.

 

4) Assuming the Lv10 is new to the game, the Lv49 will have much more experience in the game and how to win the Warzones.

 

5) Again assuming that the Lv10 is new, the Lv49 will have had more time to make friends to form a premade group.

 

6) A Lv49 isn't held back by dodgy Bolster scaling that has strange effects on secondary stats.

 

7) The option to be a 400 Biochem and the option to use the high level Biochem stuff, and will have built up more PvP consumables

 

 

The proper term would be that 10-49 works BETTER than 10-50 because there's not as much expertise gear available. Is it completely fair? No, but the margin is narrower. Personally, I'd argue to either create a level 10-13 bracket or keep them out of WZ completely. Sprint makes a huge difference and it hurts teams a lot when your respawns take several seconds longer to return than those of your opponent.

 

As for point 5 that is a huge assumption as in my experience far more players queue individually than in groups regardless of level.

[DrekorSilverfang]

So you have nothing to counter my argument other than "I play in the lower bracket a lot"?

 

All I needed to know thanks ^_^

 

The shift in the forums from "REMOVE EXPERTISE NOW!" "MAKE BRACKETS! *** BW!!!" to "HOLY **** 10-49 PVP IS AWESOME" is pretty good circumstantial evidence, no?

 

The nice thing is that before a L50 not only had the ability/spec advantage but also had expertise(and other gear) on top of it. Now a 49 only has the ability/spec advantage and to be honest that's a huge drop in power from a 50. HUGE.

 

Also you aren't going to stay 49 for very long. You pvp for a couple hours and you'll ding 50, it's not like you can freeze your exp gain.

[Ashanor]

I agree with the OP in that making ONLY a 50 bracket was a serious mistake. Queue times for 50's are now ridiculous, even on my high population server. 49's will still roll the low levels in warzones, simply because they have the skills and abilities the lowbies dont. THe point of bolster was to even the playing field, and its clear that it failed. Instead of tuning bolster, they made a 50 bracket screwing over end game pvp. This only added to the further "**** you" from bioware when they made valor from ilum as crazy as it is. Paired with queue times being 20 minutes+, its understandable why ilum ended up as it did.

 

Funny, because Imps have more 40-49s than us too but bolster seems to be working for us just fine. Like I said, our win rate completely reversed. I am at the top for damage every game as a level 33 Shadow, and that is with top objectives points as well generally.