Dual Spec: Let's Talk about it.

[Kenmuir]

SAY NO TO DUAL SPEC!!!!!

 

To begin the option to dual spec was first seen majorly in WoW, and that didn't even happen until 4-5 years after it's initial release. So DON'T expect it anytime soon, especially since there are more major things that need to be fixed.

 

Yeah, why would Bioware want to take ideas from other successful MMO's and learn from others' mistakes? That's surely not how you get a good product.

 

Second, dual spec f'ed up WoW anyway, and I don't care to see it happen to SWToR EVER.

 

It was a nice idea in thought, and honestly I was all for it when it initially came live, but sadly it hurt a majority of the hybrid healer classes. It did this b/c when it happened every1 that had a heal spec they HAD to make it their dual spec, even if they could do a tank or dps spec.

 

No, no one forced you to make a second spec, you chose/didn't choose to dual spec that way based on who you wanted to play with. If the group of people you play with won't let you play the way you enjoy the game, don't play with them. Most people don't even use it for heal/dps, they use it for PvP/PvE specs.

 

 

Third, if u choose a spec and u get tired of it roll a new toon, the story line makes it more fun then the normal WoW grind of the annoying alt.

 

But I could already respec my Commando to a combat medic, dual spec justs makes it less time consuming. What if I don't want to play a Sage/Scoundrel healer? Should I roll another trooper? 90% of the quests that you do are world quests anyway, so that doesn't make it more interesting.

 

Finally, why are you so selfish? Just because you don't like it no one else can have it? Because some "evil mean person" asked you to play another spec on your character? Can you come up with a real reason?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kenmuir

[Varghjerta]

Ask yourself two questions:

 

1) Which MMO right now has the most hardcore end-gamers.. progression guilds...etc..

 

2) The answer from question 1... Does it have dual spec...

 

Um, yea.. Dual spec does not cause a flee of the hardcore players... lawl.

 

And then ask yuourself how many games in the MMO market have dual specc?

 

And for the record most HC players left in Wotlk because basicly they got tired of having 1 day schedules.

[SargeCXI]

Alrighty, so I've been seeing threads like this up and down the listings on several parts of these forums. Every time I take a look to see if there are any updates or confirmations that Bioware has made about dual specs, I just see one of these threads and people's arguments about whether dual spec would be a good addition or a bad one. I suddenly have the need to drop my own two cents in here.

 

Whether you agree or disagree with the thoughts that I'm about to type out, either is fine. Your opinions are your opinions and you're allowed to think what you want and I'm sure not everyone in the world will agree with my own opinions but here it goes:

 

I don't know if dual spec has appeared in any other MMOs or it had been implemented before WoW did (not that it really matters, does it?), but for me my experience with dual spec had first and only been in WoW. I don't know how everyone felt about the dual spec but as for me, my friends, and our guild, we were all ecstatic about the idea of being able to use two specs at once. Before, we were doing exactly what a lot of people are doing right now: specifically resetting our talents for a hefty sum and converting them to a tank or healer spec because our one dedicated tank or healer wasn't available and we needed one for the group.

 

Dual spec took the time - and money - out of that. We got so many DPS and a tank but need a healer? One of our DPS guys that has a healer spec can switch to it, throw on some pieces of healer gear he had stored in his bank for just an occasion, and we can go do the instance without anymore problems or delays.

 

Now let me ask you this question: how many of you have been sitting around in the Republic/Imperial Fleet, typing in General, looking for healers or tanks to finish your group so that you can go run a Flashpoint or Ops? You have three members in your party but there's that one healer or tank that you need but is strangely absent despite there being 100+ people that are apparently hanging out in the Fleet.

 

But wait a minute! One of your guys suddenly says, "Hey, I got a heal/tank spec; let me just switch my spec and throw on some heal/tank pieces that I have and we can get another DPS." He switches to a tank/healer, you find another DPS, and there you go! Off to that Flashpoint that you were waiting an hour to do and could've quite possibly wasted another hour NOT doing while you found your one tank/healer.

 

That was probably the main reason why Blizzard implemented dual spec but other then making it easy to fill up spots in your group for an instance or raid, it allowed you to do something else that is probably even more important: play the game. Though I had a Warrior alt, my main was a Mage. Not really much I could do as a Mage with dual spec so I just did one spec for DPS and another spec for PvP. When my friends were online, I'd be the DPS Mage that runs through Heroics or Raids with them and, once everyone has decided to take a break, I'll just hit up some PvP.

 

Now let's go over some of the fears that people seem to have of dual spec. Starting with the main one:

 

 

 

It'll break the game! Why does it matter what class I pick if I can be tank, healer, dps, and even pvper!

 

Your class does still matter! You may only be able to pick up to four classes for either but with Advanced Class its like having eight. Now, I'm going to assume that if Bioware does implement Dual Spec, you'll only be able to switch the specs of your current Advanced Class and NOT be able to switch the Advanced Class itself. That said, none of the Advanced Classes in this game allows you to do everything. A couple, like the Sniper, ONLY allow you to do DPS and not Tank or Heal.

 

Now in WoW, there were classes that really could do everything. Paladins and Druids, for example, could do Tank, DPS, Healer, or PvP with the right spec. In TOR, that is not the case.

 

Look at the Consular which I'm currently playing specced as a Healer. It has the Jedi Shadow Advanced Class which is all melee with DPS and Tank while the Sage Advanced Class is more like your standard Mage/Priest with ranged heals and DPS. With dual spec, you can fill different roles but you certainly can't do everything. As the Sage you can do DPS and Heals perhaps but if you wanted to do some PvPing it'll be a bit more difficult without an appropriate PvP spec. And if you want to go more into PvPing you'll have to drop either your Healz or DPS and spec PvP.

 

You also have to look into the play style of the classes. Shadows and Sages can DPS, but one is focused on melee DPS while the other is Ranged. I don't know what many of you may think but that is a key difference between them and that CAN factor into group setups. Before I left WoW there were clear differences between melee DPS and caster DPS and a lot of guilds and groups, when setting up for a Raid, would want caster DPS but not melee DPS. There's pros and cons between the two and, being a Mage, the one clear advantage that casters have over melee is that the melees have to bunch up together around the boss and beat on it in order to kill it, making them for vulnerable for damaging AOE attacks that can hurt the lot of them while casters can DPS at range, away from each other, and thus make it less likely that all of the caster DPS will be hit with one AOE. Certainly puts less of a strain on the healer and, as a Sage specced in healing, I can clearly see the problems that my poor guild mates that had Priests and Shamans had when they were trying to keep everyone alive.

 

Besides, being able to play two roles is not as easy as it sounds. Say you're the Jedi Shadow; you like your Tanking but you want to do some DPSing or PvPing. Okay, its all about just switching specs and being able to fill those roles just like that? Wrong. DPS and Tank are much more different then that, specifically when it comes to gear. If you want to be a good Tank AND a DPS, you need the right gear if you want to fill both roles. Despite what people may like to think, Tank need their tanking gear to Tank while DPS gear need their DPS gear to DPS.

 

So you'll pretty much be running Flashpoints twice as much if you want to deck yourself out in two different suits of armor. Even though I know those kinds of players exist, I haven't really seen many people that want to go out of their way running twice the amount of Flashpoints just so they can be dedicated Tanks and DPS. Which leads me to....

 

 

 

 

I'm a dedicated Tank/Healer! If people can just switch specs, what's the point?

 

This is related to the first complaint but I feel like making it separate as this does have its own separate issue. People see the word dedicated but there may be a good number that don't understand the meaning of it. When people say they're a dedicated Tank and Healer, generally it means they're the Tanks/Heals that you would much prefer having to lead your groups into Hard Mode Flashpoints or Ops because they know what they're doing and have done this a lot more then the guy that just says "I'll just switch specs and run with it, lulz"

 

I am only just starting to get into Hard Modes and Ops but if they're anything like some of the Raids in WoW, you want that Tank and Healer that are dedicated to the job and know exactly what their doing. In my guild, despite dual specs, we always had members that were our dedicated Tanks and Healers that were the go-to players whenever we needed one or the other in a Raid.

 

There's been a lot of past experiences where one of our guys will go "Hey, I'll respec and throw on these random pieces of tanking gear! That'll be good right?" They do that, we run the Heroic or Raid...and the tank is just outright killed because, no, those random pieces of gear that he had really do not work. I was one of them when I was trying out my Warrior alt. You're going to want at least a decent setup of armor in order to tank something like the Hard Modes and splitting your gear between getting Tank gear and DPS gear does require a lot more work then one would think.

 

And the fact of the matter is this: despite what people like to think, Tanks and Healers are always gonna be needed more then DPS and a lot less people want to have the responsibility to Tank for the group then to just DPS for it. Even with the addition of Dungeon Finder in WoW, it would take nearly an hour for my friends and I to find that Tank or Healer that we need to run our heroics. More importantly, there's going to be people that LIKE and WANT to just Tank and Heal. For my Consular, I just want to focus on Healing. Despite being a Mage DPS in WoW, I just want to heal with my Consular in TOR. Not really so focused on DPS as I was in WoW.

 

Considering we don't have a Dungeon Finder, dual spec can be considered as even more important right now then if we did have it because we don't have the advantage of Dungeon Finder finding the roles we need. Leaving us to sit on our butts in the Fleet and constantly typing "LF1M" to get that last tank or healer that we need. An hour passing with no response is becoming all too common for a lot of players.

 

 

 

 

Just reset your skillz or level up a different class!

 

This is exactly what dual spec is about! People use this excuse so easily but this is exactly why people want dual spec! I do have a friend who's a Shadow that resets his skills and switches between DPS and Tank if the need arises or he's just tired of waiting an hour because his group needs that one Tank to do the Flashpoint. Its annoying and constantly resetting specs does take a toll on your money to the point of when I invite him to a group he says "Better get an actual Tank cause I don't have the credits for another respec"

 

With dual spec he could just switch without paying money for it. I don't see what the problem is; you get the same results as if someone was resetting their skills but they don't have to pay money for it or reset their spec. They can just SWITCH to the spec. First people like to say "JUST RESET YOUR SKILLZ LULZ" but when something like Dual Spec comes out where people CAN do just that and not pay money or reset their skills that's called "BREAKING THE GAMEZ!"

 

And as much as I praise Bioware for making a more immersive single player experience that'll get players to stick around to level to 50, there are limits. There are people that just want one character and be happy with it. Nothing bad about that. I have my Sage for healing but I had made an Imperial Agent Sniper cause I wanted a character more suited for DPS and PvPing while I checked out the Empire. He's at level 31 right now but I've recently stopped playing as my Sniper to focus on getting the gear and datacrons for my Sage in order to get more involved with my guild to do things like Hard Modes.

 

For me, and no doubt many others, leveling another character can become too tedious. Yes, their story is different (and the Imperial Agent has an AWESOME story), but you're still going on the same planets, doing the same missions as you had done before, and leveling up crew skills while you do all of that. Meanwhile, you already have a perfectly good level 50 that you could be focusing on to gear up.

 

That was my story anyway. Made a Consular that's specced for Sage Healing, got him to 50, decided to try leveling up an Imperial Agent that's specced in Sniper DPS while I try out the Empire, and I ended up stopping with my Agent because I really just want to focus on my Sage and get him geared up to play Hard Mode with my friends and guild mates. And of course I'm hoping that dual spec will come out soon to offer more versatility with my Consular.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, those are my thoughts. People can agree, people can disagree, but I felt like typing this up to offer my opinion about dual spec. Yes, I would like dual spec. With it I can have my Consular suit a variety of roles. Do I want to make him a dedicated Heal and dedicated DPS? Not really. I would like to have the OPTION of being able to make him DPS in case my group ever needs one but I'm mostly dedicating myself to Healing for the PvE.

 

Instead of a DPS role I would like to get him suited for a more decent PvP spec so that I can do Warzones and whatnot when none of my friends are currently on or if my friends are on and we decide to do Warzones together because we just feel like...you know...playing the game if only in a different way. I love Star Wars, this is a great Star Wars MMO, I enjoy playing it, and I would certainly enjoy experiencing everything it has to offer such as Healing in PvE Flashpoints and Ops and, when I'm not doing that, PvPing in Warzones and killing some Imps.

 

Hope to see you all in the game and I'm certain I'll enjoy playing with you all Or against you in the Warzones. Whichever. I'm sure we'll have fun either way.

Edited January 17, 2012 by SargeCXI

[Xehoz]

Yeah, why would Bioware want to take ideas from other successful MMO's and learn from others' mistakes? That's surely not how you get a good product.

 

 

 

No, no one forced you to make a second spec, you chose/didn't choose to dual spec that way based on who you wanted to play with. If the group of people you play with won't let you play the way you enjoy the game, don't play with them. Most people don't even use it for heal/dps, they use it for PvP/PvE specs.

 

This. Implementing dual spec, with pvp/pve switching in mind will only make the game better and more dynamic, with more people participating in every aspect of the game. Feed on the fear or stripe yourself of your emotions about this - or 'How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Dual Spec'. You guys will get over it and realise dual spec with pve/pvp in mind is a good thing.

[RegulineGorgon]

Alrighty, so I've been seeing threads like this up and down the listings on several parts of these forums. Every time I take a look to see if there are any updates or confirmations that Bioware has made about dual specs, I just see one of these threads and people's arguments about whether dual spec would be a good addition or a bad one. I suddenly have the need to drop my own two cents in here.

-snip-

 

I agree with SargeCXI wholeheartedly. Restrict Dual-Specs until after Act I is completed and limit it to only your AC (as in, no changing from Guardian to Sentinel) and we should be good to go!

 

Also, Bioware, could you implement an option where I could rate a thread even after I've posted a reply without having to double post? Thanks!

Edited January 17, 2012 by RegulineGorgon

[Caelrie]

I agree with SargeCXI wholeheartedly. Restrict Dual-Specs until after Act I is completed and limit it to only your AC (as in, no changing from Guardian to Sentinel) and we should be good to go!

 

Also, Bioware, could you implement an option where I could rate a thread even after I've posted a reply without having to double post? Thanks!

 

I'm not getting it... What difference does Act I make?

[JediRaffa]

 

Now, I'm going to assume that if Bioware does implement Dual Spec, you'll only be able to switch the specs of your current Advanced Class and NOT be able to switch the Advanced Class itself. That said, none of the Advanced Classes in this game allows you to do everything.

 

Great post Sarg. I left this quote because for me this is the most important part about how I project Bioware will add dual spec. 100% agree with this paragraph.

 

Dual spec will allow us to enjoy the full experience starting from having a leveling, to PvP, to end-game raiding. Why would you want to limit the potential of your character?

 

Just one comment on all of this though. Naturally, and because of the dependency of archetypes (tank/heal/DPS) as Sarg mentioned, and because this seems to be a blueprint for MMO's, shortages to tanks and heals are almost unavoidable. DPS will most certainly be waiting on line as it will be the most ocmmon role selected by players. This is a recurring problem inhereted from one MMO to another.

 

I was hoping this mentality of archetypes would change. Meaning, perhaps instead of needing a "tank" persay how about we blend these more so the game is not overally dependant on tanks and heals. Not sure how that would work though. requires more thought and a seperate post !

[Sjattuh]

Dual Spec, like so many more things, are used as gold sinks.

 

So long as the economy is fine in SWTOR there is no reason to add it as it will be a major gold sink if used properly.

 

I am sure they will add it sooner or later, but its smarter to keep it at hand for when the economie starts to get crappy.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Sjattuh

[dargor-]

And for the record most HC players left in Wotlk because basicly they got tired of having 1 day schedules.

 

For the record, no they didn't.

[PaSWolf]

I think duel-speccing is a terrific idea. I'd be shocked if it's not added soon. I don't see a downside to it, provided people were dual-speccing in the same AC.

It's a sad fact that soloing is slower and more difficult for people who spec as tanks and healers. That's one of the reasons why there are so few around. I don't see why one of these guys should be penalized for picking a more team-oriented role by having to slog through periods of soloing that comes up. It should also make finding groups WAY easier.

[Zaxaras]

Fully in favor of it, providing you're still locked to the same advanced class. You've always got the option to go back to your trainers and respec, so why not give you 2 perminent layouts to switch between? Yes, with raiders you'll be forced to have a non-dps spec if you're dps and vice versa, but if people who were going to pressure you to switch spec they were going to do that regardless of dual spec. Edited February 3, 2012 by Zaxaras

[DarthValkari]

Dualspeccing sounds like WoW talk. Tsk tsk

 

to date no game has yet to tackle multiple roles better then rift, this really is the primary feature of this game that sets that game apart from others, too bad that was its only redeeming quality.

 

Forget WoW, i for one hope this game looks at Rift on how to do the system right.

[Lexian_kanobi]

i think duel spec will brign alot into this game as each main class has 2 advanced classes so you wil lstill need to play each main class twice to have every class the fact that each operation requires less healers for some fights and no tanks for other fights having multiple specs avalible will speed up the raids and save alot of money on respecs

[MeanMartian]

Dual spec adds a lot of flexibility and value to the cost of the subscription.

[Mcleavestein]

I think the amount of storylines and time put into it promotes multiple playthroughs.

 

I think the legacy system promotes multiple playthroughs.

 

I think dual specs would go right against the 2 previously mentioned items and not make any sense in this game. Which is interesting for me, because i'm usually for dual specs.

Why would you reroll because of lack of duel spec? Are you really going to play the same class again, just to use a few different abilities?

 

I am actually baffled as to why anyone would be against some sort of duel spec. The only real argument seems to be "It's too much like WoW" which is an invalid argument. WoW is actually a good game with some good ideas, many of which have already been borrowed by SWtOR (Warzone, Faction based PvP, Spec builds, quest based leveling). More choice, is by definition, better.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Mcleavestein

[Gomuningen]

Title says it all.

What do you think the pros/cons of such a system would be?

 

I for one, am not having too much fun, spending 100k everytime I want to switch from PvP to PvE spec. I'm being carroted into playing in one style of play, yet the game has many to offer.

 

Lets talk about sex baby, lets talk about you and me.....

[AetherMcLoud]

Talking about this is futile. They already stated that Dualspec is in the works.

[EchoTwoOmega]

I am against dual specing and in favor of open respecing.

 

Even with dual specing your still missing out. For instance:

 

I really love playing a lightning sorcerer. I just enjoy running around zapping things with lightning.

 

Lets face it, its CRAP in PVP. Thats what the madness/lightning spec is for.

 

But sometimes I will heal for group content.

And there is yet again another spec for PVP healing.

 

 

Thats 4 different specs. I would much rather see the cost for resepcing reduced to 0 to allow people the flexibity to play the game how they choose to play the game.

[GOYAFIDO]

Dual specs devalue the entire point of specs. If you allow this, you may as well stick all the talents into one giant tree and allow double the points that way people won't have to be "inconvenienced" (such a sad excuse for mediocrity) by having to spend 5 secs changing specs.

 

As has been previously pointed out:

 

1.) Dual specs are coming and this thread is a waste of time.

 

2.) We can already respec any time we want to. The only difference between dual specing and respecing is a trip and a silly amount of cash, that's it. Dual speccing is about convenience in a game, not an affront to "real life." SWTOR is just as far removed from reality as any other MMO for the purposes of fun and convenience and any argument against respecing that is not based on the idea of convenience being too much past a certain level has no place here.

 

What many, many people actually seem to be suggesting is that respecing ITSELF devalues the entire point of specs and of course the only solution to THAT problem is to allow NO ONE to respec AT ALL. We get one chance and one chance only. We don't like our spec then we reroll, yes? When patches come out that cause balance changes, well, that's just tough luck isn't it? Allowing people to change specs devalues specs and we need to maintain the integrity of our original choices, amirite?

 

For the "immersion" folks, YOU only get to die once, then you must reroll. Now THAT is realism.

 

Let me be the 1,000,006th person to suggest to all of you who think this way: Feel free to never respec no matter how many mistakes you make in your builds and for those deeply concerned about "immersion" feel free to reroll immediately after your character dies for the first time. At least those who choose to never respec or choose to reroll upon their characters first death will have their integrity...everyone else is arguing about how much convenience there should be...

 

(I am not picking on you specifically, Slick. I only picked your post to quote because it was short and I was tired of reading the same arguments over and over again.)

Edited February 9, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[GOYAFIDO]

I am against dual specing and in favor of open respecing.

 

Even with dual specing your still missing out. For instance:

 

I really love playing a lightning sorcerer. I just enjoy running around zapping things with lightning.

 

Lets face it, its CRAP in PVP. Thats what the madness/lightning spec is for.

 

But sometimes I will heal for group content.

And there is yet again another spec for PVP healing.

 

 

Thats 4 different specs. I would much rather see the cost for resepcing reduced to 0 to allow people the flexibity to play the game how they choose to play the game.

 

This.

[MarioPower]

The Dual Spec help people to get a PvP spec and a PvE spec. They should put a dual spec

[Kennkra]

and it also helps the tank/healer shortage

[sillabaa]

They said they are putting it in... What's to talk about?

 

Because for some reason people seem to love starting potential whine threads on the forums.

[thecoffeecup]

Let me be the 1,000,006th person to suggest to all of you who think this way: Feel free to never respec no matter how many mistakes you make in your builds and for those deeply concerned about "immersion" feel free to reroll immediately after your character dies for the first time. At least those who choose to never respec or choose to reroll upon their characters first death will have their integrity...everyone else is arguing about how much convenience there should be...

 

Exactly!

 

My experience from WoW was that some people were protesting it, but I didn't know a single person in game who did not use and benefit from dual specs. For example our healers who could now have some fun throwing out some damage outside of raids, or our main tank who could do the same. As DPS I used it to optimize my performance in raids, others used it switch between PvE and PvP mode.

 

Sure we got PUG tanks in DPS gear, but on the whole it was a positive change. And I think it even helped us get rid of a lot of the PvP-specced people underperforming in PvE groups.

 

The reason it's JUST dual-spec and not quadruple spec or something is because your spec will still matter. You don't have infinite possibilities with the same character at any given time unless you pay for it. It isn't meant to give you everything at once and completely remove all meaning from skill trees, it's just meant to give us some flexibility.

Edited February 12, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[dutch-master]

I say NO to dual spec! and keep respec cost high!

I do not want to have to face guild pressure to have a heal/tank spec!

No dont tell me roll a gunslinger i have a very viable dps commando!

What starts out as optional soon becomes demanded. Rift is prime example. What sounded great with a flexible soul system became you WILL carry a spec for all possible roles or you wont raid!

 

LOL @ your poor Rift guild choice. Also, why wouldn't you want to be able to swap form DPS to heals. I have no problem with either, my heal set is decidedly better though.

 

Rifts soul system was/is GOLD compared to the failfest that is SWTOR talent trees.

 

I was on multiple servers and was never forced to do a role I didn't want to. Seriously, your guild was either full of jerks or didn't want you.