For background, the following quote was posted on another thread as a continuation of an argument occurring here. So I'm posting my response here to keep things neat. Do everything? No, do more, yes. You make it sound like I want my character to do everything all at the same time, and advanced class switching would do nothing of the sort. Actually, what I did there was to ask for a creative analysis of what players would consider to be the downsides to advanced class switching and how those players would ask that it be removed if they actually had to make a convincing argument. You missed the point totally. Why do you agree with that? Even when you're quoting someone else you can't manage to form a complete thought, this is a problem. I'm sorry that Rifts was too complicated for you, it's fortunate that this game has already been tailored to meet your needs. Yes, I to agree with dual spec, but that's not really the topic. Actually, Juggernauts are Warriors and, with advanced class switching, their alternative would be Marauders, another AC that can't heal. You want your example to be an assassin, the guy who already uses finesse and the force to shoot lightning bolts and stealth, waking up one day and deciding he wants to use the force to heal and shoot lightning bolts instead. Yes, you can do it with 2, but that's only half the problem. DPS classes are vastly different, tanking classes are vastly different, and as I see you've discovered below, healing classes are vastly different. Some of these classes will appeal to certain players more than other classes. Making a connection with your character is THE reason to keep playing this game, any of the internet psychologists that have already posted on this board will tell you that. Having double the number of play options available will allow you to find the character and spec that you love twice as fast. I'm starting to see why Rifts was too much for you. I'm not sure why you're talking about sorceresses and bounty hunters as bringing the two healing styles into some degree of uniformity is an entirely different discussion.

@AngelousWang; What your describing is not a actually that hard to fix. WoW corrected it handily as part of their dual spec/respeccing system, and from what I can tell SW:TOR has also fixed this already as you do not need to relearn levels of talented abilities. Also, you missed the point of the post. @Vesperr; Thank you for the example of a particularly stupid "slippery slope" argument. You've missed the point of the post. @hadoken; Thank you for pointing out the slippery slope argument made prior. You've missed the point of the post. @Darthsnooky; The UCLA Lawschool will be sorry to hear that you think the hypothetical, or mock, trials they perform are stupid. I'll let them know immediately. Despite this, I'm glad to see that you got the point of the post. @subrosian; Your opinion on WoW being dead, with over 10 million subscribers is noted, and laughed at. But you've missed the point of the post. I will respond to your arguments in a PM, but would prefer this post stay on task. @Vandewater; I'm sure that subrosian appreciates the fluffing, but you've missed the point of the post. @Metaspark; I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of yourself that you don't feel you'd be able to pick up the art of healing or be able to maintain two sets of gear. For you I'd suggest that you roll an alt. But you've missed the point of the post. @SandsOfArrakis; I am both humbled, and amused, to have a stalker. I'll reply to your *ahem* arguments back on the post that you pulled that quote from. But you've missed the point of this post. So, Darthsnooky acknowledged the purpose of the excercise but does not realize the value of it. Subrosian went on a barely legible appeal to the worries of WoW, a game which has built so many subscribers that other MMO's would cream themselves to just have the number of subscribers that WoW has lost, all without making an argument for why advanced class switching would cause that to happen here. Next time one of you wonders why I'm such a condescending ******e, just think back to the utter fail you've shown in this post. Here's hoping the next 8 people to respond have something more interesting to say.

As has been explained a few times already, this is asking to change your advanced class. I understand there's a myth percolating that the advanced class is somehow a class, but the facts just don't hold that up.

First, off thank you for making actual arguments. Flavor-Of-The-Month classes are a design flaw that invariably occur and will occur in this game regardless. I'd say that Flavor-Of-The-Month rollers actually provide a service by helping the developers identify game imbalances earlier. Now, as for class stacking and abuse of raid positions? What your describing is a good thing. But you finish your thought in the next paragraph, so I'll hold off. So you think it's desirable that a guild recruit a bench warmer for a single fight, a player that sits around all raid night waiting for ONE fight to pop up? How is that a good thing to you when that same guild can recruit an operative with a sniper off spec and use him the entire evening? Of course, for all your talk of end game you're showing a dramatic lack of understanding about how end game raiding works. In a progression guild they're not going to grab a "new player" to rotate on a bench. They're going to have one of their existing players to roll an alt. Then they don't need to recruit a guy to just sit on the bench all night, they're going to drag the raiding night to a halt, have an existing player log out of his Operative, log on with his Sniper, do one fight, then log out and back in with his Operative. There is no "new player" benefit here. Ah, and my respect for you dwindles and disappears. Look up "slippery slope fallacy" then look up "strawman fallacy" then realize you tried to justify a strawman fallacy with a slippery slope fallacy. Now understand why I'm laughing at you. Class/spec imbalances should be fixed by the developers, not used as an excuse to limit play. You're done here, go away.

Switching advanced classes here, not classes. And, as I have pointed out repeatedly, in WoW you can level an alternate class on completely different story lines. If a story line is being done for the first time, it's unique. I level a mage in WoW, it's a blood elf. It gets all the way to 85 on fresh new content, at 58 it travels to dreaded Hellfire Peninsula, at 70 it travels to Borean Tundra, at 80 it goes to Mount Hyjal. I level a priest in WoW, it's a forsaken. It starts with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT quests in a completely different zone. Up to 58 I do not step into a single zone that I've already quested in. At 58 it travels to Silithus, at 60 it skips Hellfire and goes to Zangarmarsh, at 70 to Howling Fjord, at 80 to Vashijr. Completely unique leveling experience, repeating none of the same quests or zones. That you continue to assert that doing around 30 unique class specific quests and repeating the same 120 or so side quests gives you a better replay value is laughable to me. Especially laughable because we are discussing someone who can't do 30 unique class specific quests, we are discussing someone who has to do the exact same 30 unique class specific quests twice. Your posts cause me to condescend to you because you can't hold the thread of an argument, you can't make an assertion that stands up to the least bit of analysis, and you can't seem to realize this. You want to say something smart and relevant, my suggestion would be start by arguing what you know. You don't know the design philosophy behind this game, so stop trying to say you know the reason why advanced class switching was never introduced. You don't know about WoW, apparently, so stop trying to tell me about WoW. Argue what you know.

I'm sorry, you're trying to say that there is a problem with all melee burst damage classes by comparing one infiltration attack to one balance attack? You sir have failed. Now I agree that, if you were to make a post about melee burst classes, it would belong here, but you did not make a post about melee burst classes, you made a post comparing infiltration shadows to balance shadows. Take it to the shadow boards so players interested in discussing shadows can dismantle your paltry arguments as I see they are already doing here.

I am unaware of any healing abilities that require the use of an auto-cannon and at end game rifles carry the same stat budget as auto-cannons. They do less damage than an auto-cannon so there is that drawback in PVP. Also, Bioware will not be busting their humps itemizing aim rifles for healers, so even if there is no problem now, one may develop in the future.

I do believe that melee, in melee range, should do more damage than ranged in melee range. I also believe that this already exists in game. What you propose would simply be another way of giving melee an edge while in melee range but I don't think the numbers support your need for an extra edge.

Yeah, a trooper would be the druid of this game if they let you advanced class switch. Of course, WoW still has plenty of players that aren't druids... maybe all those warriors and rogues haven't gotten the memo yet?

Interesting idea, and in line with game lore. Give one of the advanced classes a healing or tanking spec so you're not adding two more pure dps AC's into the game. And don't sweat those people saying that 8 AC's are already too difficult to balance. If this game expands, it will add new classes/advanced classes.

There are quite a few people playing this game that are against the idea of advanced class switching, and I've made no secret of my befuddlement at their position. It's confusing because they're not just saying, "No thanks Bioware, I don't need the convenience this service will provide" their position goes further and declares, "Bioware, do not give others this service that I will not use!" And, for the life of me, I've not read any good reasons why. So today, I want people to hop on Martian's Magic Moped of Make-Believe and put-put along the highway of imagination to the world of 'might-have-been.' Imagine that SW:TOR has been released but the developers made a huge mistake. They included an advance class switching service! But not just any advance class switching service, they allow it to be switched ON DEMAND and an unlimited number of times from the skill tutor for an increasing amounts of credits that reset after a mere week. And, dual speccing is on the way and they're going to allow each spec to have.. wait for it... it's own advanced class! Now, those of you with a weak constitution may need to sit down while you take that in. If there are any women, or small children, please see that they have not injured themselves during their inevitable fainting. Now those of you who are opposed to advanced class switching. What effects, positive or negative, do you believe the game would be suffering if it was launched with advanced class switching? And, more interestingly, now that your view is not the default and you have motive to do more than just shriek "Advance classes are your class, you can't change your class in any other MMO!" what would you say to Bioware to convince them to turn aside from this, to fix their mistake and to remove advance class switching from the game?

The guy's level 50 and has already farmed up an end game set for Aric, I think he's passed the 'hand me down' stage of companion gearing. To answer your question, I do not know which gear gives the best mix of aim, tech power and crit.

Fascinating, why is that ridiculous? Seems to me six talent trees are twice as good, and I'm never going to level 8 characters to cap. Hell, I'm probably never going to level 4 characters to cap.

Ah, you see, I saw what you posted, but assumed it couldn't possibly be your full reasoning because it is an argument FOR advanced class switching and you are against advanced class switching. You say this game derives its replay value from 8 superbly written story lines that engrosses the player in the actions of his character. Lovely, I agree! I space bar'd through the third time I had to listen to some senator hire me to lay the beat down on the migrant merchants guild, but you better believe I was paying attention each and every time I did a class quest on Coruscant. I don't think its enough to say it gives more replay value than WoW, but that's a discussion for a later time. There's just one tiny little problem with that, you see, advanced classes share a story line. This replayability isn't there when you are rolling your second trooper just to see how a vanguard plays. So it comes back around to the question, if the replayability isn't there, why make people slog through all the class quests a second time, and all the side quests for the, however-many-characters-they've-leveled-already-teenth time, to experience the advanced class? I'm sorry that you find me arrogant. *shrug* I rub people the wrong way because short sighted posts that make assertions without reason annoy me. Not as much as pretend internet psychologists though... so you're at least three steps ahead of the last people who called me an arrogant ******e.

Shouldn't this be in the shadow forum? And, I'm sure the recent changes bring infiltration specced shadows more in line with other specs, overall. Look at the whole picture, and make an argument about optimum dps, sustained and burst and I'll care. Keep comparing one button push to one other button push, and I tune right out.

*I* think that you should spend less time insinuating that the motives of other posters are in some way clandestine and more time, well, doing anything else. The insinuations of one anonymous troll on the internet about another anonymous face on the internet are a waste of time. If you think his post has made any sort of mistakes comment on those, if you think the last post he made has any sort of mistakes comment on those, but we don't need to turn this thread, or this forum, into a flame war.

Your conclusion is different from mine, you provide no rationale for your conclusion, no explanation, no new thoughts to consider. Thus your conclusion is rejected as incorrect. Too arrogant? Ohwell, let me try again. In WoW I could level an alternative character without repeating a single quest that my main did. In WoW I could level an alternative character easily through the dungeon finder. In WoW I could level an alternative character in level bracketted pvp without being a burden on my team. In SW:TOR I can level a new advanced class by repeating the exact same quests I already did. Or I can level an entirely new class by doing almost all of the exact same quests I already did. How did you reach your conclusion that this game has, not just more, but far MORE replayability than WoW does? If I come off as arrogant it's only because people make asinine posts, don't provide any supporting reason for their assertions and I call them on it.

The "whole class idea." I have no idea what you mean by that. I can only guess what you're going for here, and just guessing would be unfair to you. Though apparently you're fine at just guessing what I want. And you call me rude. By the way, both times that you've guessed about what I want, you've been completely wrong. In this case you're not even close to right as allowing advanced class switching does not turn my character into any more of a "master of all trades" than allowing dual speccing talents. In both situations I would be given the opportunity to, out of combat and out of battle grounds, trade my characters current strengths, weaknesses, and about a third of his abilities, for different strengths, weaknesses and a different third of his abilities. If you'd actually consider the situation you'd realize that. Having a bunch of things that are the same make them, by definition, less different or, more the same. Now, I think the degree to which it makes them similar is so severe that it's inaccurate to call them "different classes" and that Bioware did the right thing by calling them "advanced classes." You apparently think the extent to which they are the same is not significant enough for you to justify calling them separate classes. The reason you think this... I don't have a clue. If I had to guess, and I hate doing it because you should have the opportunity to express your own thoughts and beliefs, based on your "shadow/sage" example, it's because shadows fill a tanking/melee dps role exclusively and sages fill a healing/ranged dps role exclusively. And so no Shadow ever fills the same party role as a Sage. But that reasoning falls apart before it even starts because we don't restrict advanced classes to a single role. We've already compromised on that principle by letting shadows tank and dps. Letting them heal or do ranged dps is a logical extension. Well, looking at this objectively. You've made three points in favor of your argument, you've not explained or expanded on either point at all. One point you explained so poorly that I have no idea what you mean, the other point is demonstrably wrong, and the third point is a matter of interpretation. You've made one wild guess about my motives based on no information. So, objectively speaking, you are living down to the expectations you set the first time you accused me of 'wanting everything handed to me on a silver plate.' But you did make an attempt to answer my question and tell me why you don't want me to have advanced class switching. In the World of Warcraft I used to play a hunter and I got bored with it because a hunter can do damage. They have three different ways of doing damage, but one spec is always superior to the other two and none of the specs are really that different from each other. Now I play a Shaman, and shaman are awesome because they can play in three entirely different play styles. I started him as a melee dps shaman, enhancement, got bored and switched him to ranged dps, that's elemental, I got into a raid guild and, just owning a healing offset got me into end game raids. I spend half my raid night healing, and I don't enjoy healing that much, but I enjoy doing end game raids and like my guild enough that it's a fair trade. It's challenging for me because I get to keep up with three entirely different play methods, rewarding because I get to choose what I want to do, and not frustrating at all because I don't need to try to drum up affection or enthusiasm for some long forgotten alt. I'm addicted to my Shaman, and through that WoW, and you know the craziest thing, I WANT to be addicted to SW:TOR in the same way. But SW:TOR does not have a shaman. SW:TOR does not have an advanced class as versatile as the shaman. SW:TOR does not have a class that will hold my attention as long as my shaman did. Sure, I can level an alt, but as I've been pointing out, SW:TOR has less replay value than WoW, a lot less if you're talking about leveling two of the same class, so if it comes down to that, I'm just as likely to go play an alternate game. If they allow advanced class switching, then every class becomes as versatile as the Shaman. Every class doubles the opportunity to line up, just right, and capture a players attention and hold it through content droughts, glitch filled patches, battle ground exploits, and all of the other minor frustrations that can add up and turn a player off of an MMO.

To start, I notice you quoted a question that I asked another poster, and then did not even bother trying to answer it. You're already off to a poor start. Are they like "any other class in any other MMO?" I've already listed, earlier in this page, about four ways in which advanced classes are different than separate classes in "any other MMO." Okay, they have the same gear. They have the same story line. They have the same companions. They share 65% of the same abilities. In this way these classes are VERY similar. And VERY beats "remotely." This was a question they were going back and forth on up until release. Just because YOU are under the mistaken impression that advance class changes were "never meant to happen" does not make it so. And no, it's not accurate to call a class an "archtype" because the class determines the majority of your characters abilities, his primary statistic, his armor class, his weapons choices. Too much of a character is tied up in his class choice for it to be dismissed as an 'archtype.' Make a post in which you are demonstrably wrong less than half the time, and we can discuss the philosophy of MMO's. I do believe I asked first. You tell me why you don't want an advanced class to be changeable, and I'll go back and dig up one of my earlier posts that explains the many benefits of allowing it. Then maybe we can have a discussion. Although, given your closing paragraph, I don't have much hope for your ability to have a discussion.

Fascinating, do you have a particular reason to feel that way? Or are you just stupidly wasting our time and yours?

Do you think this game is stronger for locking players into that choice? If so why? Does your opinion change if Bioware makes decisions to invalidate the players choice, such as overhauling the talent trees to make someones spec inviable?

Yes, the OP doesn't want to stick to a choice he made at level 10 before his character unlocked all of its abilities and its play style became full realized. You have now spent your first paragraph recapping his position. Do you have any analysis of that position that you'd like to share? *sigh* Everyone sing it with me now. Shadows and Sages share 65% of their powers. Shadows and Sages share 100% of their story line. Shadows and Sages share 100% of their companions. Shadows and Sages share 93% of their gear. Priests and Rogues share NONE of that. Oh good, so WHY do you prefer it this way? What is your reasoning? Have you seriously thought about this? Until you provide some substantive reasoning for your position, than I'm afraid 0,02€ is too high a price to pay for your musings.

For one, I was more than a little confused about you posting my response to another poster all together and then ignoring that entire discussion in your response to me. As for the discussion I was having with you, I addressed each and every one of the points that you raised and dismissed them on their own merits. Some of them were wrong, none of them were very well explained, and almost all of them require that you have some special insight into the psychologies of the majority of players. You performed badly. You can see my full response back on response page 39. Now, as for your 'shoot from the hip' psychological analysis of me. I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else, I do think I'm smarter than you but only because you've given me ample reason to think so.

Nothing but flasshpoints without any sort of group finder... *shudder* You're a better man than I. Still, you're going to miss your companions when it comes time to level your professions.

I'd considered that, but no. He's clearly only suggesting this as a means of creating a fully ranged vanguard as the commando version of ionic accelerator has nothing to do with Ion Pulse. Now, I'm not sure how I'd feel about this game having a guy who's rifle could shoot effectively at over 10 yards away, would seem to violate canon. But this post belongs in the vanguard section.