Dual Spec: Let's Talk about it.

[LifeOfMessiah]

this almost made me fall out of my seat laughing at how ridiculously blind-sighted it is.

 

 

ok if i play a Commando as a good guy and go to the quest area i get 3 quests, if i go back to the same area playing as a Vanguard bad guy i get the exact same 3 quests.

 

the only difference was 1 or 2 lines of speech and then it went right back to the same scripted event.

 

 

 

 

the whole LIGHT / DARK thing is about stupid in the game though without it causing faction switching.

 

the reality is if a person was 10,000 light side they would get kicked out of the empire, and if a person was 10,000 dark side they would get kicked out of the republic.

 

without some type of faction switching involved, its just a stupid mechanic that doesnt fit the game that looks like it was directly stolen from mass effect 2.

 

That begs the question as to what the future of the light/dark side is going to be. Will there be the ability to switch factions? I'd like to see more in depth character stories. I think the idea of switching factions based on your choices is a good idea. The question is how that can be properly implemented.

[PinnyFox]

After Rift SWTOR pushes the mmo-class-design back to 2003. Rift's classsystem was an eye-opener. Within my playing group we kept switching between roles as the mood fit. What drove me out was the lackluster endgame content for 5 man groups but the soul system was excellent.

 

And yet there are still only 3 or 4 out of the "hundreds" of specs ever used in RIFT. Why? Because you can't balance them all.

[ryuukhang]

I don't get why people keep thinking dual spec will allow you to go from one AC to another. Bioware has already stated that they won't allow going from say a Shadow to a Sage. What dual spec will allow is going from healer Sage to damage Sage - and this should be allowed.

[FariaFirst]

I'm not sure what the big deal is with implementing something like this. It'll make the people that want it happy. Also, the people that don't want to use it, don't have to. Personally, I loved having a healing spec, tank spec and PVP spec on 1 character in Rift.

[Ganjiang]

I'm not sure what the big deal is with implementing something like this. It'll make the people that want it happy. Also, the people that don't want to use it, don't have to. Personally, I loved having a healing spec, tank spec and PVP spec on 1 character in Rift.

 

Some of the posters here that are against having a dual-spec honestly seem to not really even know what it is, from what I've been able to garner on the forums.

 

For the most part, the common arguments against dual-spec are appeals to emotion/entirely subjective rather than pertinent discourse: it breaks immersion; it forces me to play a spec I don't want to play; the game is fine the way it is; it's in WoW; specs won't matter if they allow dual-spec; it's lazy; just use the respec trainer; it produces bad healers/tanks; it's in Rift; and if you want to play more than 1 role, make another character. None of these arguments have any credibility as to why dual-spec should not be implemented.

[Sentry_gun]

Dual spec is a great idea and should be implemented ASAP.

 

Players however need to know the distinction between "Dual spec" and "Dual class". I do not want players to have the ability to switch between advanced classes, just 2 particular talent sets within a single class.

[Russkiier]

I'm not sure what the big deal is with implementing something like this. It'll make the people that want it happy. Also, the people that don't want to use it, don't have to. Personally, I loved having a healing spec, tank spec and PVP spec on 1 character in Rift.

 

The big deal is that it will cause changes to every player, even if they dont use it. It will allow DPS-ers to spec to heal (which is a completely differnt skill set/ playstyle) and get into groups and since the groups have a limited size a more skilled healer could get shafted, not to mention the group that has a terrible healer. That is just one example of an issue that could come up.

 

To reference another poster who complains about paying to switch from PvE to PvP, why dont you level an alt for PvP, or PvE if you prefer. are you so tied to one character/class that leveling an alt is simply not an option?

 

If so, why should bioware provide MORE options (with a dual spec) if you have already chosen to reject options.

 

all that being said, I am fairly neutral on dual spec, just like good discussion

[jbuschell]

People are just dumb, first off saying there shouldn't even be a respec option at all is crazy, this game is young and noobs will make mistakes when speccing their character should they be forever mired in mediocrity because of you're high and mighty disposition on how everything in this games needs to be on nightmare difficulty mode, for people who pvp and do hardcore raiding dual spec was a god send, you obviously need to hang out with a more understanding crowd if you think you're guild will whine at you to switch between spec. Dual specs didn't make wow easier it made it better, they made their content easier and added things looking for raid into their game, dual spec had nothing to do with it.

[Tatermitts]

Some of the posters here that are against having a dual-spec honestly seem to not really even know what it is, from what I've been able to garner on the forums.

 

For the most part, the common arguments against dual-spec are appeals to emotion/entirely subjective rather than pertinent discourse: it breaks immersion; it forces me to play a spec I don't want to play; the game is fine the way it is; it's in WoW; specs won't matter if they allow dual-spec; it's lazy; just use the respec trainer; it produces bad healers/tanks; it's in Rift; and if you want to play more than 1 role, make another character. None of these arguments have any credibility as to why dual-spec should not be implemented.

 

/agree.

 

Just wanted to get in on this 46 page flame war.

[ferroz]

Depends on the choices you make. If you're always spamming 1 and the spacebar, then yes identical. That's on you though, not the game.

No, even if you vary your choices, and don't hit the spacebar, there isn't any difference between a powertech and a merc

[ferroz]

The big deal is that it will cause changes to every player, even if they dont use it. It will allow DPS-ers to spec to heal (which is a completely differnt skill set/ playstyle) and get into groups and since the groups have a limited size a more skilled healer could get shafted, not to mention the group that has a terrible healer. That is just one example of an issue that could come up.

No, that dpser can already spec to heal; he may also be a skilled healer.

 

So adding dual spec doesn't cause this to happen... it already happens. The fact that it happens is not something you can attribute to dual spec.

 

 

To reference another poster who complains about paying to switch from PvE to PvP, why dont you level an alt for PvP, or PvE if you prefer.

I'm not interested in going through the same mediocre storyline just to be able to play in both pvp and pve. If I wanted to experience bad/generic writing, I'd go pick of a Salvatore book.

 

If so, why should bioware provide valid options (with a dual spec) if you have already chosen to reject invalid options.

Fixed, should be self explanatory now.

[ferroz]

I don't get why people keep thinking dual spec will allow you to go from one AC to another. Bioware has already stated that they won't allow going from say a Shadow to a Sage.

SoE said that it was impossible to increase the size of player banks in EQ. But it happened.

 

You can count on dual ac not being in the game for a while, but don't count on dual AC being out of the game forever...

[ferroz]

And yet there are still only 3 or 4 out of the "hundreds" of specs ever used in RIFT. Why? Because you can't balance them all.

maybe that changed after I stopped playing, but rogues had multiple bard specs, multiple tank specs, and a double handful of dps specs, all that were viable.

[ferroz]

It's a button that let's you "respec" between two sets of talent trees, typically with a cooldown and unable to be used in combat.

The way that classes in everquest would "respec" was to change out the spells that you had memorized and swapped gear, (both of which could be done in combat). That's how a shadowknight went from tank to dps, or a druid from heals to dps or vice versa.

 

 

It's also an excuse for some people to only ever play with the same 4 or so people, while shunning everyone else in the community and acting like they're the best ever, because "oh if someone drops I can just SWITCH MY SPEC and take over instead of having to go through the BOTHER of letting another human being play!"

eh, people have played primarily or even only with their friends since before there were games with specs... so dual spec isn't responsible for that behavior.

[Tarka]

After playing the entire story for my Inq to endgame, I will NOT be rolling another Inq to 50 just to try out the Assassin. Even though I would like to try that AC out.

 

The difference between the AC's is marginal in my opinion. Same story, same companions, same ship. The only difference is the abilities. So I disagree with Bioware's notion of them being analogous to separate classes.

 

 

I'm all for Dual Speccing both in terms of the talent trees and the AC's. Although switching AC's should be limited to say, one "round trip" per week.

 

In my opinon, any arguments about "ninja rolling for other AC's" applies to both rolling for companions or alternate AC's: allowance should be made so that players cannot roll for specs that they aren't currently using. If all pass in the group, then those players wanting the items for alt AC's can fight it out amongst themselves. In other words, is a group specific situation that doesn't need to be dealt with by the devs.

 

I don't care about other peoples opinions, this is just my 2p worth.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

SoE said that it was impossible to increase the size of player banks in EQ. But it happened.

 

You can count on dual ac not being in the game for a while, but don't count on dual AC being out of the game forever...

 

QFT. If subs noticably drop, Bioware will begin to look at making changes that might appeal to getting people back. And this is one of them. But of course, that's like closing the door after the horse has bolted from the stable.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Tarka

[FobManX]

Dual speccing within the AC should be in the game. I'm a Sentinel, but I want a second spec for PVP, or might make my second spec Focus for trash/AOE(not a huge deal as trash is trivial right now but could be of greater concern later).

 

I don't think dual spec phases out pure DPS. It does allow excess healers/tanks to respec DPS when fights don't require them to be at their main role though, or if a main healer/tank can't make it a backup can simply change to their second spec instead of having to waste time and $ to go back to Fleet and respec.

[Russkiier]

Quote:

To reference another poster who complains about paying to switch from PvE to PvP, why dont you level an alt for PvP, or PvE if you prefer.

I'm not interested in going through the same mediocre storyline just to be able to play in both pvp and pve. If I wanted to experience bad/generic writing, I'd go pick of a Salvatore book.

 

Quote:

If so, why should bioware provide valid options (with a dual spec) if you have already chosen to reject invalid options.

Fixed, should be self explanatory now

 

What makes rolling an alt an invalid option? Bioware has given you the option to roll alts, play different playstyles/characters, that you seem to be rejecting? And in reference to your first point, that respecing already happens, there is a dis-incentive in the form of credit cost that reduces that behavior, thus incentivising people to choose between a dps or heal or tank spec, or some hybrid that does what you want

[Badhand]

Title says it all.

What do you think the pros/cons of such a system would be?

 

I for one, am not having too much fun, spending 100k everytime I want to switch from PvP to PvE spec. I'm being carroted into playing in one style of play, yet the game has many to offer.

 

I'm not sure whether you realize it, but the price of respeccing actually resets to 0 after 7 days.

 

The interface is a little wonky, and when you TRY to respec, a box comes up with a big number (if you have respecced recently), but when you actually DO respec, if you check the system messages in the chat window, you will see a message that says: your price was reset to 0.

 

That being said, I'd love a dual spec system. It would only highlight even more how utterly pointless DPS-only classes like gunslingers and sentinels are.

 

Currently I have to pay a moderate fee or simply gear-out a companion to take the place of a derpderp dpstard, but this would just allow us to flip a switch and ignore their existence altogether.

 

Any game-based tool which lets me ignore idiots in bulk is a tool I can get behind.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Badhand

[thewayshemoves]

I say NO to dual spec! and keep respec cost high!

I do not want to have to face guild pressure to have a heal/tank spec!

No dont tell me roll a gunslinger i have a very viable dps commando!

What starts out as optional soon becomes demanded. Rift is prime example. What sounded great with a flexible soul system became you WILL carry a spec for all possible roles or you wont raid!

 

You know actually, I'm all for dual specs, because it will be beneficial in a way. But this is a really good point. I don't like how for some people it will turn into exactly this. Just because there's a healing tree on my scoundrel doesn't mean I want to spec into it with my dual spec in order just to be included in a raid. Good point I hadn't actually thought about. I hated that on my warrior. I was dps, that's all I wanted. I had a pvp and pve dps spec. I hated tanking, but that's the only way I could raid. :\

[Tamanous]

Seeing the debate is still over whether or not you want it I'll just step in and say ... again:

 

You know it is coming and they are working on it right now right?

 

They have stated this quite clearly.

 

.. yet the debate rages on 0.o

[xraytech]

Why do some people not understand this. Why do some people want to control everything, and just cause they don't like something, no one should get it. It makes no sense to me. First of all, I don't even see the downside of Dual Spec.

 

The most common bad things I hear about it is that it:

 

makes everyone the same

makes things "ez-moad"

makes bad tanks/healers

 

1. First of all, Dual Spec in no way makes everyone the same. All the different classes are entirely different still. All the trees are exactly the same as without Dual Spec. In fact, as far as gameplay, LITERALLY NOTHING CHANGES. You are still using/facing off against the same specs that have always been there.

 

The only difference, is instead of flying to the fleet, walking all the way to the guy, paying a ludicrous amount of credits, flying all the way back to wherever you were, you can just change where you are. That's the only difference. Either way, you still get to change.

 

So for all the people who say Dual Spec doesn't make any sense, you shouldn't be able to go back and forth. You already can go back and forth. We are just asking for them to remove the restrictive cost and over the top travel time.

 

2. Once again, it in no way makes anything ez mode, cause nothing gameplay wise has changed. Imagine one person who is Dual Specced DPS/Heals. Now imagine another person who has single spec, and is DPS, but is about to change to Heals.

 

The first guy swaps from his DPS spec to his Heal spec, and starts healing Boss X.

 

The second guy goes out and respecs into his Heal spec, and starts healing Boss X.

 

The content is still exactly the same. Nothing has changed. The only thing that was easier was the travel time being shortened and the cost being lowered. That's all. If to you you think that running to the fleet and spending a lot of credits and wasting a bunch of time takes "skill" or is "hard to do" and by removing the travel time and the high cost you make the game EZ MODE and WoW 2... Listen to your logic. Think about it for a second. NOTHING CHANGES. ALL IT DOES IS REMOVE TRAVEL TIME AND COST. THE GAMEPLAY IS UNAFFECTED.

 

3. Bad Tanks/Healers exist because normal people are looking to solo and pvp in Support Specs. For dedicated group players, you can main that spec and it's fine. If you are constantly grouping, constantly running Flashpoints, etc. then leveling as a tank/healer might be okay. But some people just prefer to solo. I for one prefer to solo. My guild and my group need me to tank, I want to tank, but I'm not willing to level in a tediously slow spec that underperforms greatly in PvP to tank a few 4 mans on the way up.

 

Like I wonder sometimes if these people who are against Dual Spec even PvP. If you are just raw tank specced, do you really not care that you may as well just never Dual, you may as well give up on big games in PvP? Yah you can still do great/useful stuff, lots of D, Guard, CC, etc. but you aren't going to be topping the damage charts or the KB charts.

 

Some people want to tank and still be able to PvP as a DPS. Why do you care what we do. We could just go to the fleet and respec to PVP DPS spec, do a few rounds, respec back to Tank, but you don't care about that? That is a non issue? But if we can do the exact same thing, but faster and without penalty, now it's a problem?

 

Just remember. You are being NO people. There are NO people and YES people. NO people want things their way, want everyone else to do things their way, shoot down ideas, protect the status quo, just being generally disagreeable, argumentative, and you think you are superior. Honestly you people are like the Sith, you are like the Dark Side!!!

 

We are trying to say YES, we want change, we want options, choices, flexibility, freedom, change, we want things to stay fresh, we want to change and evolve and we want to do it without the heavy burden of prohibitive and restrictive costs and meaningless and gratuitous travel times.

 

This guy says it all...I couldn't have said it better myself

[Ghost_Dancer]

This has been debated since beta and I still do not comprehend how anyone could be against it - the arguments have no logic behind them.

 

Many of the arguments seems to be based on the premise that those with dual spec are not as good players as those with only 1 spec or they will be less geared. These arguments also state that to play a different spec we should roll a different character. The result is pretty much the same (the player has 2 specs to choose from) but they have had to spent many days and hours to get that second spec. So how is that preferable? In fact in this scenario a lot of time has been wasted that could have spent better gearing up a single character for both specs.

 

For anyone who thinks certain demands will be made on them with a dual spec system, the answer is simple - join a better guild.

 

Finally, let us not forget that we can already respec out skill points. Its in the game. But lets look at this in detail. Lets say your mates need healer for a flashpoint/raid. Currently you have to spend an ever increasing amount of credits to reset your points, then spend a few minutes sorting out your skill tree, then sorting out your action bars, then changing your equipped gear. All this time your friends are waiting. OR, you hit a button and you are ready to rock. The latter sounds much better to me and I'd be happy to pay a one-off fee for the privilage.

 

I won't lis the benefits - there are many and they have been stated many many times already. All I will say is that dual spec is a god-send for smaller guilds and I can't wait until we get it.

 

Edit: Just saw the post above mine. Well said sir

Edited March 8, 2012 by Ghost_Dancer

[cdnbaki]

To all the people saying dual specing is bad because it forces you to have a spec if you want to raid...

 

As compared to being forced to pay or NOT raid because you aren't the spec needed to fill a slot? As compared to a guild not being able to raid or having to PUG in people because they have too many similar roles online and can't fill the slots with people they trust?

 

As compared to hearing 3 different groups looking for a healer / tank for a flashpoint because all three are missing a healer / tank unless someone coughs up the credits to respec?

 

What on earth makes you think dual spec suddenly makes it easier? It just makes it so those of us who actually have the skill and interest to have two different tool kits not have to constantly swap specs at a high cost. It's stupid that I have to spend 100k every time someone needs a healer and I'm dps or vica versa.

 

Also I don't pay money to spend my free time dredging through content I've already played, I don't have time to sit around all day and play, I have work and a life. I want to be able to experience content on the toon I already put my free time into the one I labored to get just right in terms of gear and crew skills etc etc etc... Suggesting people reroll because YOU don't like dual specing is asinine.

[P-Funk]

Its incredible how much information I got out of watching the Guild Summit.

 

When someone asked a question about dual specs the reply from a Dev was... "Multi-Specs. Coming after 1.2"