Dual Spec: Let's Talk about it.

[Velr]

Please no dual spec.

 

Thanks.

[invispoet]

PS: we agree on pretty much everything - we agree should cost mucho credits, we agree that you should have saveable hotbars, the only thing we disagree on is whether you should have to travel back to fleet or not to do it.

 

Which is a bit funny, since you can buy fleet passes for 1k credits

 

I really think it should either be an option from all class trainers (which are in most spaceports), or from your ship...kind of like a war room/strategy meeting function..."for this mission, this will work better" kinda thing.

 

*shrug*

[sskinzz]

On one hand, this is different, because in this instance i'm talking about waiting while LOOKING for a group, not while actually in one.

 

You could lump all that other waiting under your favorite category of '**** happens", doesnt mean that it's a good thing to add MORE waiting time just for the hell of it.

 

On the other hand, this is part of my whole point. If they can remove one of the factors forcing people to wait, and not hurt anyone int he process, there's no reason they shouldnt.

 

You're sounding more and more like you dont give a flying **** about anyone else, which really begs the question: WHY are you playing a massively MULTIPLAYER online role playing game? If you play solo, adding dual specs will have ZERO effect on you, and make the game more fun for almost everyone else.

 

i do give a flying **** -

 

its a pain in the *** to wait - trust me - we have a guy notorious for ALWAYS having to go back to get/do/grab/craft something before we begin - but we all just chat/strategize while we wait.

 

when we arrive to fp/operation, is the time to pee/smoke or whatever cuz we know there is an additional 10 minutes cuz he gotta go back for something, lol. but we just deal.

[Elblai]

There were some calls for people to show what detriments could come about if Dual Spec was to come about. (Yes, "if".) I have done my best to explain a few:

 

Think of who made this game. BioWare. A company known to add story and content based on a players decisions. For example, Mass Effect. Decision to go Paragon or Renegade. This culminated in a specific quest only available to the decision to commit entirely to one side or the other. You know what this makes me think of for SW:TOR? Role-specific quests. A quest available only for those who have spent X amount of talents in a heal tree at Y level. Said quest would be tailored to the nature of that role. I personally think this would be a cool idea.

What about a further split later, where you choose a specialization within your AC? They could add a choice you have to make at 40 (this assumes the level cap gets raised later) that gives you another minor tree to go up in based on which of the three trees you want to specialize in. BioWare showed that this option would be possible and popular in Dragon Age.

Dual Spec would cheapen, if not entirely remove, these possibilities.

 

Also, how would the respec function work with dual spec? (This is a rhetorical question, I don't want your answer) Would you respec just your current spec, or both? Would the cost of respec scale for each time you did the respec, or only for each time you change THAT spec slot? Easily answered, perhaps, but the question still remains. Dual Spec simply existing cheapens the cost of respeccing, in that you have half the need to respec - you can just try things on that other spec slot.

 

Those with the mindset of "If you don't want to use it, ignore it" - have you actually thought about that statement? Are you all telling me that you don't see this situation happening in the future:

Player 1: Crap, we need a healer. Player 2, change to a healing spec so we can do this Heroic.

Player 2: I choose not to have a Dual Spec.

Player 1: Oh. Well. Then I choose not to have a Sage in my Heroic. *Kicks Player 2.*

 

And, let's assume for the moment that we have a leader who isn't as much of a ****:

Player 1: Crap, we need a healer. Player 2, change to a healing spec so we can do this Heroic.

Player 2: I choose not to have a Dual Spec.

Player 1: Huh? Why? They clearly mean for you to have it, since it's part of the game.

Player 2: I did not agree with it.

Player 1: Yeah, well, even though I am really nice, this is still peer pressure to get you to use it. Everyone else is.

 

No one, and I mean no one, will be able to escape the use of Dual Spec. You will be required to use it if you intend to do anything but solo, as you will be judged if you do not.

Even if you remove the people element from the equation, PvP and PvE are still going to be balanced around what the players have at their fingertips. This means that later balancing changes and additional content will be made at the expectation that you use everything available - including Dual Spec. Which further means that per game design philosophy you will be at a disadvantage by ignoring the functionality of it.

 

Even more - there is already quite a bit of assumption and stigma about certain classes being "automatically" a role. As in the above example, we are seeing Sage's being auto-assumed to be healers. This will evolve if there is Dual Spec. You will find there will be a good amount of the community will encounter this situation: "You're a Sage and you don't have a heal spec? N00b." Is that the extreme example? Yes. But it will continue until even those against being a healer will either be driven away from playing the AC entirely or have a healing spec just to avoid the crap.

 

There is another point brought up that people do not want to have to play two of the exact same character/stories just to play two sides of the same coin. Firstly, there is no reason for you to play the exact same thing. If you want to play both a Scoundrel and a Gunslinger, you would have to play through the story as well, yes? Does the argument still hold water at this point? "But I'm not asking to change AC, Elblai, just specs!" Very true. However, you are still asking to change. Why can you not play the characters separately? Play a Sharpshooter Gunslinger who is Dark Side and an ***, while the Scoundrel is a goody-two-shoes. Not enough variation for you? Play only some side quests on one, and different ones on the other. Still not enough? Level up through PvP on one, and space missions on the other. Still not enough? Level one only in groups with guild mates and concentrate on social points. And we haven't even started on playing the same spec on the Empire instead. The options are abundant.

 

There has also been some argument that "Your choice will still have meaning" even with Dual Spec. While I agree there is still meaning to being a tank even if you weren't 10 seconds ago, you are instead putting meaning on the role itself and not the persons option to do it. It puts emphasis on "Here's Jim. He's our Sage." rather than "Here's Jim. He's our Tank." Yet, amazingly, the game goes beyond even that to put it to specifics. "Here's Jim. He's our Shadow Tank." There is more pride to be had in being what you are, the way that you want to be it.

 

What would happen if Dual Spec is NOT implemented? There are those who would leave. There are those who would complain. There are those would continue along anyway, even though they would have liked having it. There are those who would not care. There are those who would rejoice. Which of these groups do you think is largest?

 

All these things being said, I know that the addition of Dual Spec is entirely likely if not a probability. But they haven't said "Yes, it is coming", they have only said "We are looking to add it after launch". You might claim that is semantics. I would claim you don't work in the legal department. Small wording differences can mean a world of change.

 

If your first response to any of these sentiments starts with the word "I", then stop. For a moment, consider an answer in more broad terms. We're talking about an expansive community and not particular individuals.

 

EDIT: Man these threads fly fast. Go to type one post and I'm two pages later. 9_6

Edited January 10, 2012 by Elblai

[invispoet]

i do give a flying **** -

 

its a pain in the *** to wait - trust me - we have a guy notorious for ALWAYS having to go back to get/do/grab/craft something before we begin - but we all just chat/strategize while we wait.

 

when we arrive to fp/operation, is the time to pee/smoke or whatever cuz we know there is an additional 10 minutes cuz he gotta go back for something, lol. but we just deal.

 

See, i'd kick the bastard from the raid, but i'm a bit more hardcore than most raiders...I started raiding in an environment where if you made the raid wait, there were 10-15 pepole waiting right outside the zone to take your spot.

 

to each their own i guess.

[sskinzz]

See, i'd kick the bastard from the raid, but i'm a bit more hardcore than most raiders...I started raiding in an environment where if you made the raid wait, there were 10-15 pepole waiting right outside the zone to take your spot.

 

to each their own i guess.

 

i hate to say it, but you just kinda debunked your whole argument in a way - changing game mechanics to appease the most hardcore (roughly 5% of player base) is kind of silly

 

is the majority of players as hardcore as you? you would actually kick a friend from the group because they accidentally forgot something? glad to say our group isnt like this...

 

and agreed, to each their own

[sskinzz]

See, i'd kick the bastard from the raid, but i'm a bit more hardcore than most raiders...I started raiding in an environment where if you made the raid wait, there were 10-15 pepole waiting right outside the zone to take your spot.

 

to each their own i guess.

 

your experience in these type of things is probably not the norm.... just because you have a million hours raiding experience in wow, doesnt mean that these things apply to everyone else. im just sayin, think from the perspective of your beginner all the way up to intermediate mmo player.

[Matte_Black]

So what you're saying is that I should have to level the same exact class twice, go through the same exact story twice, and gear up twice, for me to play my ONE character to it's maximum effectiveness.

 

I'm not asking to be able to tank as a powertech and then heal as a mercenary. I'm asking to be able to heal when i'm raiding (on my mercenary) and be able to dps, or use another healing spec, when pvping or questing. There is no jekyll/hyde syndrom here. The advanced classes are purposefully split so that EVERYONE has at least one dps tree, and MOST classes have a tank or healer tree (but not both). Restricting people to one role at all times is just flat out silly, people have less fun, groups are harder to put together, and people waste more time sitting around looking for groups in general.

 

Being able to have a second spec doesnt automatically turn you into an overpowered killing machine. You still have to gear up for it, practice with it, and improve at it. Good players will be good at their 2nd spec in time. Bad players will not.

 

It doesnt change anything in the current game system except waiting times.

 

You can fill that other role by levelling whichever class will fill it, if you prefer to fill that other role with the same AC, that's your call.

 

I also mentioned the possibility of playing a build that can be viable in both roles. Single role optimization isn't a promised entitlement in any MMO materials I have read. You'd also have the ability to keep two sets of gear for what ever you are specializing at the time to swing a more utilitarian build toward it's desired role.

[sskinzz]

and the bottum line, is waiting for someone to run and respec really THAT big of a deal?

 

i can understand why it would bother you so much (as you raid hardcore, and have probably spent countless hours doing it) ... but to the average guy, having to wait 10 minutes and screw around while waitin for one of the party just isnt that big of a deal

[invispoet]

Think of who made this game. BioWare. A company known to add story and content based on a players decisions. For example, Mass Effect. Decision to go Paragon or Renegade. This culminated in a specific quest only available to the decision to commit entirely to one side or the other. You know what this makes me think of for SW:TOR? Role-specific quests. A quest available only for those who have spent X amount of talents in a heal tree at Y level. Said quest would be tailored to the nature of that role. I personally think this would be a cool idea.

What about a further split later, where you choose a specialization within your AC? They could add a choice you have to make at 40 (this assumes the level cap gets raised later) that gives you another minor tree to go up in based on which of the three trees you want to specialize in. BioWare showed that this option would be possible and popular in Dragon Age.

Dual Spec would cheapen, if not entirely remove, these possibilities.

 

There are several flaws in this thinking. First, you are making guesses about how Bioware will progress with their game/character development. Secondly, for branching story arcs like this, it makes a lot more sense to use light side/dark side, faction loyalties, or compelling NPC conflicts as the pivot points, instead of talent specs, because you can ALREADY change specs in the game.

 

Also, how would the respec function work with dual spec? (This is a rhetorical question, I don't want your answer) Would you respec just your current spec, or both? Would the cost of respec scale for each time you did the respec, or only for each time you change THAT spec slot? Easily answered, perhaps, but the question still remains. Dual Spec simply existing cheapens the cost of respeccing, in that you have half the need to respec - you can just try things on that other spec slot.

 

I know you said you dont want an answer, but for completion's sake (so people cant say i disected your post, I will).

 

Most games that allow dual spec will leave the re-spec process the same as it is (meaning the price still goes up, and still decays over time), and respec only your current spec. Bioware could go either way with this, or even potentially come up with something new...it's not really pivotal to the dual spec debate though.

 

Those with the mindset of "If you don't want to use it, ignore it" - have you actually thought about that statement? Are you all telling me that you don't see this situation happening in the future:

Player 1: Crap, we need a healer. Player 2, change to a healing spec so we can do this Heroic.

Player 2: I choose not to have a Dual Spec.

Player 1: Oh. Well. Then I choose not to have a Sage in my Heroic. *Kicks Player 2.*

 

And, let's assume for the moment that we have a leader who isn't as much of a ****:

Player 1: Crap, we need a healer. Player 2, change to a healing spec so we can do this Heroic.

Player 2: I choose not to have a Dual Spec.

Player 1: Huh? Why? They clearly mean for you to have it, since it's part of the game.

Player 2: I did not agree with it.

Player 1: Yeah, well, even though I am really nice, this is still peer pressure to get you to use it. Everyone else is.

 

Let's assume the same situations, but without dual spec in the game.

 

Guess what? The outcome is the same. The group needs a healer, and that sage is not a healer. ONE of the dps have to be kicked. Dual spec doesnt make this worse in any way, it just gives people the OPTION to have a healer off spec, or another dps off spec. There is also a chance that someone ELSE in the group can switch specs to cover the weakness...it doesnt HAVE to be that one sage.

 

No one, and I mean no one, will be able to escape the use of Dual Spec. You will be required to use it if you intend to do anything but solo, as you will be judged if you do not.

Even if you remove the people element from the equation, PvP and PvE are still going to be balanced around what the players have at their fingertips. This means that later balancing changes and additional content will be made at the expectation that you use everything available - including Dual Spec. Which further means that per game design philosophy you will be at a disadvantage by ignoring the functionality of it.

 

There is no logical reason to 'escape' dual spec. It changes absolutely nothing. Designers make content to be difficult, but (usually) doable. When content is difficult, PLAYERS make the decision to optimize their groups. PLAYERS make the decision to use everything they have available, because the content is...you know, HARD. If content isnt hard, there is no reason to use everything you have. Dual spec doesnt change content. It only makes it easier to experiment with different setups to complete difficult content.

 

Even more - there is already quite a bit of assumption and stigma about certain classes being "automatically" a role. As in the above example, we are seeing Sage's being auto-assumed to be healers. This will evolve if there is Dual Spec. You will find there will be a good amount of the community will encounter this situation: "You're a Sage and you don't have a heal spec? N00b." Is that the extreme example? Yes. But it will continue until even those against being a healer will either be driven away from playing the AC entirely or have a healing spec just to avoid the crap.

 

This is an assumption made by lazy/stupid people. All 3 healer classes are fairly balanced for everything except extreme nightmare mode raiding. Same with the tanks. As long as there is one role that is in higher demand than the others, this will ALWAYS be the case. Dual spec, again, does not create this issue, or make it worse. It makes it better, because there are more people able to fill it. Yes, there are a lot of sages (and troupers and scoundrels) that will refuse to heal, but there are also a lot that will give it a try, and may like it.

 

There is another point brought up that people do not want to have to play two of the exact same character/stories just to play two sides of the same coin. Firstly, there is no reason for you to play the exact same thing. If you want to play both a Scoundrel and a Gunslinger, you would have to play through the story as well, yes? Does the argument still hold water at this point? "But I'm not asking to change AC, Elblai, just specs!" Very true. However, you are still asking to change. Why can you not play the characters separately? Play a Sharpshooter Gunslinger who is Dark Side and an ***, while the Scoundrel is a goody-two-shoes. Not enough variation for you? Play only some side quests on one, and different ones on the other. Still not enough? Level up through PvP on one, and space missions on the other. Still not enough? Level one only in groups with guild mates and concentrate on social points. And we haven't even started on playing the same spec on the Empire instead. The options are abundant.

 

Because most of the people that want to change specs are doing this for the good of their guild or raid. Having to level and gear an entirely new character, when the one you already have geared (and at level 50) can do it is nothing but a waste of time. In your example above, you're going from a melee dps to a ranged dps...if your raid needs you as melee, or as a healer, levelling that gunslinger does absolutely nothing but waste time.

 

Also, no matter HOW you level, if you plan on playing the (hard mode)flashpoints at 50, you HAVE to do your story quests. (at least to my knowledge)

 

There has also been some argument that "Your choice will still have meaning" even with Dual Spec. While I agree there is still meaning to being a tank even if you weren't 10 seconds ago, the you are instead putting meaning on the role itself and not the persons option to do it. It puts emphasis on "Here's Jim. He's our Sage." rather than "Here's Jim. He's our Tank." Yet, amazingly, the game goes beyond even that to put it to specifics. "Here's Jim. He's our Shadow Tank." There is more pride to be had in being what you are, they way that you want to be it.

 

There's also pride in being a guild that works well together. Groups REQUIRE specific makeups to succeed. If one person has a real life issue, quits the guild, decides to change faction, or any number of other things, then the guild is unable to function. Part of the purpose of dual spec is to make it easier for people to form groups that have a chance at the content. waiting 2-3 weeks to recruit a tank, or for someone to level up a tank, really does nothing but (you guessed it) waste time.

 

What would happen if Dual Spec is NOT implemented? There are those who would leave. There are those who would complain. There are those would continue along anyway, even though they would have liked having it. There are those who would not care. There are those who would rejoice. Which of these groups do you think is largest?

 

People that insist that 'I'll quit if dual spec is put in the game' are largely flat out ignorant, or they only care about the single player aspect of the game (which i find hilarious, because it's a massively MULTIPLAYER game)

 

Some would complain for a bit, but really, if you sit down and think about it, they wouldnt be complaining about the option to dual spec, but about the option to respec. Adding dual spec into the game doesnt give us something new, it just makes something we already have less of a time waster.

 

All these things being said, I know that the addition of Dual Spec is entirely likely if not a probability. But they haven't said "Yes, it is coming", they have only said "We are looking to add it after launch". You might claim that is semantics. I would claim you don't work in the legal department. Small wording differences can mean a world of change.

 

If your first response to any of these sentiments starts with the word "I", then stop. For a moment, consider an answer in more broad terms. We're talking about an expansive community and not particular individuals.

 

Yes, small phrases can mean a lot, but at the same time, it's going to come down to a case of this: Adding dual spec hurts no one, and makes the game more enjoyable (by removing chunks of downtime while LFG) for most players. It's really a no brainer at that point.

Edited January 10, 2012 by invispoet

[invispoet]

and the bottum line, is waiting for someone to run and respec really THAT big of a deal?

 

i can understand why it would bother you so much (as you raid hardcore, and have probably spent countless hours doing it) ... but to the average guy, having to wait 10 minutes and screw around while waitin for one of the party just isnt that big of a deal

 

In small doses, it's not a big problem. Honestly I see it as more of a problem for completionists that feel they HAVE to do every quest on EVERY planet, and HAVE to run every flashpoint at the appropriate level. That forces them to sit around for a LONG time waiting for groups.

 

Adding dual spec will make MANY aspects of the game more enjoyable, and not hurt ANYONE in the process. Really, if you can make a lot of people have more fun playing your game (which in turn keeps them paying you), why wouldnt you?

[sskinzz]

There are several flaws in this thinking. First, you are making guesses about how Bioware will progress with their game/character development. Secondly, for branching story arcs like this, it makes a lot more sense to use light side/dark side, faction loyalties, or compelling NPC conflicts as the pivot points, instead of talent specs, because you can ALREADY change specs in the game.

 

 

 

I know you said you dont want an answer, but for completion's sake (so people cant say i disected your post, I will).

 

Most games that allow dual spec will leave the re-spec process the same as it is (meaning the price still goes up, and still decays over time), and respec only your current spec. Bioware could go either way with this, or even potentially come up with something new...it's not really pivotal to the dual spec debate though.

 

Those with the mindset of "If you don't want to use it, ignore it" - have you actually thought about that statement? Are you all telling me that you don't see this situation happening in the future:

Player 1: Crap, we need a healer. Player 2, change to a healing spec so we can do this Heroic.

Player 2: I choose not to have a Dual Spec.

Player 1: Oh. Well. Then I choose not to have a Sage in my Heroic. *Kicks Player 2.*

 

And, let's assume for the moment that we have a leader who isn't as much of a ****:

Player 1: Crap, we need a healer. Player 2, change to a healing spec so we can do this Heroic.

Player 2: I choose not to have a Dual Spec.

Player 1: Huh? Why? They clearly mean for you to have it, since it's part of the game.

Player 2: I did not agree with it.

Player 1: Yeah, well, even though I am really nice, this is still peer pressure to get you to use it. Everyone else is.

 

Let's assume the same situations, but without dual spec in the game.

 

Guess what? The outcome is the same. The group needs a healer, and that sage is not a healer. ONE of the dps have to be kicked. Dual spec doesnt make this worse in any way, it just gives people the OPTION to have a healer off spec, or another dps off spec. There is also a chance that someone ELSE in the group can switch specs to cover the weakness...it doesnt HAVE to be that one sage.

 

 

 

There is no logical reason to 'escape' dual spec. It changes absolutely nothing. Designers make content to be difficult, but (usually) doable. When content is difficult, PLAYERS make the decision to optimize their groups. PLAYERS make the decision to use everything they have available, because the content is...you know, HARD. If content isnt hard, there is no reason to use everything you have. Dual spec doesnt change content. It only makes it easier to experiment with different setups to complete difficult content.

 

 

 

This is an assumption made by lazy/stupid people. All 3 healer classes are fairly balanced for everything except extreme nightmare mode raiding. Same with the tanks. As long as there is one role that is in higher demand than the others, this will ALWAYS be the case. Dual spec, again, does not create this issue, or make it worse. It makes it better, because there are more people able to fill it. Yes, there are a lot of sages (and troupers and scoundrels) that will refuse to heal, but there are also a lot that will give it a try, and may like it.

 

 

 

Because most of the people that want to change specs are doing this for the good of their guild or raid. Having to level and gear an entirely new character, when the one you already have geared (and at level 50) can do it is nothing but a waste of time. In your example above, you're going from a melee dps to a ranged dps...if your raid needs you as melee, or as a healer, levelling that gunslinger does absolutely nothing but waste time.

 

Also, no matter HOW you level, if you plan on playing the (hard mode)flashpoints at 50, you HAVE to do your story quests. (at least to my knowledge)

 

 

 

There's also pride in being a guild that works well together. Groups REQUIRE specific makeups to succeed. If one person has a real life issue, quits the guild, decides to change faction, or any number of other things, then the guild is unable to function. Part of the purpose of dual spec is to make it easier for people to form groups that have a chance at the content. waiting 2-3 weeks to recruit a tank, or for someone to level up a tank, really does nothing but (you guessed it) waste time.

 

 

 

People that insist that 'I'll quit if dual spec is put in the game' are largely flat out ignorant, or they only care about the single player aspect of the game (which i find hilarious, because it's a massively MULTIPLAYER game)

 

Some would complain for a bit, but really, if you sit down and think about it, they wouldnt be complaining about the option to dual spec, but about the option to respec. Adding dual spec into the game doesnt give us something new, it just makes something we already have less of a time waster.

 

 

 

Yes, small phrases can mean a lot, but at the same time, it's going to come down to a case of this: Adding dual spec hurts no one, and makes the game more enjoyable (by removing chunks of downtime while LFG) for most players. It's really a no brainer at that point.

 

tl;dr

 

you already have the option to respec, you agree with the cost and you agree with the way it is setup now is fine - what is your arguement/point of this thread still?

 

if your ONLY beef is the travel time, why not start a thread about that to get your point across?

[Elblai]

First, allow me to apologize, as I meant to mention in the previous post that while I'm against Dual Spec, I'm not gonna cry a river if it's added. I personally think BioWare would turn out to be the stronger if they didn't, and that's all.

 

There are several flaws in this thinking. First, you are making guesses about how Bioware will progress with their game/character development. Secondly, for branching story arcs like this, it makes a lot more sense to use light side/dark side, faction loyalties, or compelling NPC conflicts as the pivot points, instead of talent specs, because you can ALREADY change specs in the game.

The point WAS to make a guess at how BioWare COULD progress. I am not assuming they will. As you say, there are other ways for them to branch that would be easier - and I agree. But ya gotta admit, branching with spec's and additional trees would be unique.

 

I know you said you dont want an answer, but for completion's sake (so people cant say i disected your post, I will).

 

Most games that allow dual spec will leave the re-spec process the same as it is (meaning the price still goes up, and still decays over time), and respec only your current spec. Bioware could go either way with this, or even potentially come up with something new...it's not really pivotal to the dual spec debate though.

No arguments or disagreements here. I just think it's funny that the fact it is affected and would take time (even if only a minor amount) to have it added from those who froth at the mouth and must have the Dual Spec NAO!

 

 

Let's assume the same situations, but without dual spec in the game.

 

Guess what? The outcome is the same. The group needs a healer, and that sage is not a healer. ONE of the dps have to be kicked. Dual spec doesnt make this worse in any way, it just gives people the OPTION to have a healer off spec, or another dps off spec. There is also a chance that someone ELSE in the group can switch specs to cover the weakness...it doesnt HAVE to be that one sage.

You seem to have misunderstood, though that may have been due to my delivery. I meant to give the impression that the Sage was kicked for being UNWILLING to heal and not because the party was full. I understand the direction you continued with, however, though it is incidental to the direction I intended.

 

 

There is no logical reason to 'escape' dual spec. It changes absolutely nothing. Designers make content to be difficult, but (usually) doable. When content is difficult, PLAYERS make the decision to optimize their groups. PLAYERS make the decision to use everything they have available, because the content is...you know, HARD. If content isnt hard, there is no reason to use everything you have. Dual spec doesnt change content. It only makes it easier to experiment with different setups to complete difficult content.

This was directed entirely at those who use the defense that "Don't use it if you don't want to". You do not seem to be a part of that crowd.

While I still disagree with your statement that "It changes absolutely nothing", your direction is one I agree on - and was the focus of my entire post: It is the players that often are the cause and motivation of most things in MMO's. I merely attempted to show that given the fuel, that motivation can lead to a negative majority.

 

 

This is an assumption made by lazy/stupid people. All 3 healer classes are fairly balanced for everything except extreme nightmare mode raiding. Same with the tanks. As long as there is one role that is in higher demand than the others, this will ALWAYS be the case. Dual spec, again, does not create this issue, or make it worse. It makes it better, because there are more people able to fill it. Yes, there are a lot of sages (and troupers and scoundrels) that will refuse to heal, but there are also a lot that will give it a try, and may like it.

I spoke nothing of balance, and I don't disagree - the proclamation generally comes from the ignorant. However, the ignorant are responsible for many stereotypes and idioms that have held firm. Dual Spec, as you said, did not create this issue. I do believe that it enables it, however.

 

 

Because most of the people that want to change specs are doing this for the good of their guild or raid. Having to level and gear an entirely new character, when the one you already have geared (and at level 50) can do it is nothing but a waste of time. In your example above, you're going from a melee dps to a ranged dps...if your raid needs you as melee, or as a healer, levelling that gunslinger does absolutely nothing but waste time.

Looking over the amount of posters who have given their reasons for wanting to change specs so often... I do not find that a majority do this for guild/raid success. Most of posters have cited more selfish reasons than this.

 

Also, no matter HOW you level, if you plan on playing the (hard mode)flashpoints at 50, you HAVE to do your story quests. (at least to my knowledge)

I do not believe that is the case, but I could be incorrect. I'll try to find more information.

 

There's also pride in being a guild that works well together. Groups REQUIRE specific makeups to succeed. If one person has a real life issue, quits the guild, decides to change faction, or any number of other things, then the guild is unable to function. Part of the purpose of dual spec is to make it easier for people to form groups that have a chance at the content. waiting 2-3 weeks to recruit a tank, or for someone to level up a tank, really does nothing but (you guessed it) waste time.

If a guild ceases to function because of the loss of one man... That was a very weak guild. If you must wait 2-3 weeks for another person to level in order to play your content, you are once again a weak guild. Once the game ages a little, there will be more than enough 50's about to support the kind of environment you desire even without Dual Spec.

 

People that insist that 'I'll quit if dual spec is put in the game' are largely flat out ignorant, or they only care about the single player aspect of the game (which i find hilarious, because it's a massively MULTIPLAYER game)

 

Some would complain for a bit, but really, if you sit down and think about it, they wouldnt be complaining about the option to dual spec, but about the option to respec. Adding dual spec into the game doesnt give us something new, it just makes something we already have less of a time waster.

The first bit, we agree with entirely. It's an ignorant statement to make. The second bit, it is only a time waster if you do not enjoy it. And there a a myriad of ways to make it enjoyable. I believe some were listed in my post. If you're stuck to one character, you're missing most of the games content anyway.

 

Yes, small phrases can mean a lot, but at the same time, it's going to come down to a case of this: Adding dual spec hurts no one, and makes the game more enjoyable (by removing chunks of downtime while LFG) for most players. It's really a no brainer at that point.

The removal of downtime for LFG can be fixed numerous other ways as well. Dual Spec is not the only answer to that problem. UI improvements might solve that issue entirely - if people are able to communicate better they might find people more easily. They ability to flag yourself for party AS a role would help a lot as well. There are too many options to be stuck on any given answer for this issue, and as such, I view it as something tacked on to the "I want Dual Spec" argument rather than something that actually supports it.

 

On a complete side note, thank you for responding in a respectful way. There are too many mouth-frothers on the forums to not recognize genuine contribution.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

I find it amusing that so many people argue in favor of a credit sink, which is, in essence, a time sink. I never realized there were so many players who enjoy wasting time.

 

This game is a waste of time and I enjoy it.

 

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Sorry but just because you want to tell us what your definition of what an MMO is doesn't somehow prove anything.

 

I'd argue that a multi spec capable MMO allows players to play however they want, when they want which keeps them logging on. I may love healing Operations but I want to be in a DPS spec for PVP or doing dailies.

 

And I'd argue that any MMO that allows you to play multiple characters on the same server does that as well. So, this is still not a strong argument for Dual Spec.

 

Grinding credits to pay for respecs is an inconvenience for some. Grinding another character to 50 is an inconvenience for some.

 

Currently, people have to ask themselves, which of the two available options is less inconvenient.

 

Dual Spec has not been promised. It has been mentioned that they will look into it and add it if it is needed.

 

So, what people who want Dual Spec need to do is show that the above two options don't work or will cost subscriptions, while removing them as time/credit sinks will keep people playing longer and not adversely affect the economy.

 

"I like to change specs" is only an argument that the feature is wanted, not an argument that it is needed.

 

"It doesn't hurt anything" is only a statement of opinion, and not an argument at all.

 

People who don't want to add Dual Spec don't actually have to prove anything. It doesn't cost BioWare anything to not add Dual Spec.

 

It's up to the "I want this" crowd to show that it is worth the development time to add this feature.

 

Of all the things people are saying they will quit the game over, is this something that would actually hurt BW enough to be worth the cost to implement?

 

I'd use Dual Spec, but it's not something I'd quit over.

 

When (if) SWTOR actually starts losing subs to players that send emails (not just forum rants) saying "I quit over not having Dual Spec." Then , I'm sure, BioWare will look very hard at adding this feature.

[Sendrel]

not sure how the price scaling works, but it should definately be at a significant cost, not cheap. example @ level 50 - first time 100,000k, second is 200,000k, third is 300,000k etc and cap at say, 1,000,000?

 

you should have to go back to the fleet every time. its a very minor inconvenience considering the purpose that it serves.

 

i agree with you that you should be able to have saveable hotkey layouts.

 

And then all you've done is create a tax on people who like to PVP. That's it. Leave scaling out of control or have switching cost too much and people just won't do it at all casually. At which point, your cries of 'money sink!' go out the window. Its not a valid money sink if no one uses it.

 

A one time payment (even if exorbitant) per spec is plenty.

[Sendrel]

Dual Spec has not been promised. It has been mentioned that they will look into it and add it if it is needed.

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916

 

Q: Since it has been clearly stated that there will not be dual specs for characters in the game, can you explain your philosophy behind the skill trees and how you are taking into account players that want to be able to play PvP and PvE content on the same character?

 

A: Dual Speccing is something we want to add soon after launch. Also, features like Guard, PvP Taunt, Resolve, etc. work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP).

 

Seems pretty unambiguous to me, no?

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Frankly I think not having duel spec makes people better gamers. its called adapting within your chosen spec.

 

Well, one could just as easily say that limiting everyone to one character per account makes them better gamers. I would disagree, but one could say that, so I wouldn't use it as an argument.

[MeanMartian]

Between making grouping easier, and making PVP more accessible adding dual spec just opens up too much of the game and adds too much longevity to the experience for it to be ignored for too long. Dual spec will happen, it will make things easier for everyone in a dozen different ways every day, the game will be stronger for it, and after it's added there will be a vocal minority pissing and moaning about how much better the game was before the number of available healers and tanks doubled.

[Elblai]

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916Seems pretty unambiguous to me, no?

 

Read that again. "Something we WANT to add" does not say "Something we are adding".

[Jedi_Wannabe]

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916

 

"Dual Speccing is something we want to add soon after launch."

 

Seems pretty unambiguous to me, no?

 

Is English not your primary language?

 

"want to add" and "will add" are not the same thing.

 

They haven't promised Dual Spec. And there are newer posts from the developers, which have already been quoted elsewhere in this thread, which state that Dual Spec will be added if it is needed. Which leads one to believe that if it isn't needed it won't be added.

 

So, to get Dual Spec into the game, we need to show that it is needed, not just wanted.

[Lethality]

You can ALREADY change within your AC spec, so what's the problem with Dual Spec allowing you to do so more easily?

 

Because making it easier devalues the choice, which devalues the gameplay. Simple. As. That.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Between making grouping easier, and making PVP more accessible adding dual spec just opens up too much of the game and adds too much longevity to the experience for it to be ignored for too long.

 

I would agree if this game didn't already allow a virtually unlimited number of characters per account, and if leveling wasn't so easy.

 

Dual spec will happen, it will make things easier for everyone in a dozen different ways every day, the game will be stronger for it, and after it's added there will be a vocal minority pissing and moaning about how much better the game was before the number of available healers and tanks doubled.

 

I remember people whining (in the forums) about how great the game (WoW) was before Dual Spec was added and they could actually find a tank or healer that knew how to tank or heal.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

The ONLY thing adding dual specs does is make it so that you can save a 2nd FREQUENTLY USED spec so you dont have to fly back to the fleet to respec. All it does is make those 3/7/15 other people spend LESS time waiting on you.

 

Again, "It's more convenient" isn't a very convincing argument. If that's all it does, then Dual Spec isn't needed.

[Sendrel]

Read that again. "Something we WANT to add" does not say "Something we are adding".

 

 

Is English not your primary language?

 

"want to add" and "will add" are not the same thing.

 

Really? Your response is to lawyer that statement? I'd grant that they've been anything but consistent with statements regarding dual spec (and other features), but I'm guessing that most people with a rational outlook on things would agree that, in the context of that quote, their intention is to get dual spec added.

 

So, to get Dual Spec into the game, we need to show that it is needed, not just wanted.

 

Semantics. Needed vs. wanted isn't an argument that's particularly compelling between anyone who isn't a developer. For developers though, it often amounts to the same thing.