Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

[Fairell]

properly geared and skilled tanks last forever. there are tons of videos of tank/healer duos surviving 5 people easily.

 

stop *********** crying. as an assasin i can barely touch a tank, since every move bar one is mitigated by armor, shields or both

 

you already are being able to make urself immortal. stop asking for more.

 

the majority of skills in this game do kinetic/energy/weapon dmg. guess what? mitigated by armor with weapon dmg by shields AND armor. they can also be parried, deflected, dodged or missed.

 

there is not a single hard hitting ability which bypasses armor. all of them are dots.

[Sanzibal]

Thanks to this thread my level 12 is owning warzones by avoiding all armor and shields.

[xTyphoidx]

Fairell, you're red herring technique doesn't really apply here. We're talking about tanks shielding and absorbtion and how it doesn't seem to work as advertised in pvp. This isn't about fully pvp geared healer/tank duos owning soloers in wzs. The tank community wants to know if our stats are as worthless as they seem in pvp and if that was indeed the plan.

 

The next question would be, if that was in fact the plan, why is our pvp gear itemized to improve these largely useless facets of our defense for pvp? Without a combat log we only have a few videos and personal experience to go off of. Tanks are not very tanky, and in many cases are about the same defensively in any gear, relying on their defensive cooldowns such as smoke grenade to provide them any defensive utility. Right now we have many tools to make other players want to attack us, but not so many to mitigate the damage when it comes.

 

We should try to keep it on topic, are tank skills working as intended and what is up with our pvp gear itemization ? If dps players talents and itemization were geared towards skills that only worked on 15% of the player base i think we would get a hell of an uproar. I don't see why this should be any different.

[Khabarach]

stop *********** crying. as an assasin i can barely touch a tank, since every move bar one is mitigated by armor, shields or both

Are you actually happy with being one of the only classes that can't bypass a tanks def and shields? Pretty much everyone else can, so your class is pretty gimped with the tank stats being as they are. How is that fair on you? Edited January 16, 2012 by Khabarach

[jjanni]

Bump..

 

I would be nice if a Dev/Community Rep could respond here to let us know that Bioware is looking at this. Or tell us... Working as intended...

 

I realize we are still in the first month of the game, and like every MMO, there will be many class balances so i'm not QQ'ing over every imbalance right now.

 

But it would be nice to know that its at least being investigated.

[Vitiock]

I started taking the dps pvp gear because I do better in it than I do with my proper pvp gear, and having to channel force grip for 1 second before I can move is really annoying, I often force gripped people to close or to flee from them.

[Keii]

I've started taking DPS gear too since I have the same amount of survivability because most of mine comes from talents and abilities anyway. Might as well swap out the wasted stats with something I can at least make use of. No sense sacrificing DPS for no gain.

[Seyyal]

as a shieldtech , i have to agree. 80% of my talent tree is useless and all the pvp gear is useless.

 

but i want to tank in PVE to so i cant do anything about it.

 

 

If this is working as intended then i will roll dps and leave my tank for PVE stuff.

[dynamitepop]

At this point, I feel the lack of any response from either a tank dev or a pvp dev shows that they don't have any answer. If it is working as intended and the item points spent on defense and shield absorb. were ment to give so little back in return for balance, then, I would hope they would post and explain how they came to that conclusion. The forum silence may mean that they are testing diffrent methods to "fix" the itemzation on the PVP tank gear and are waiting until they have a real answer that doesn't imbalance the game before they let us know what they plan on doing...or it could mean that they don't care about the community. With the speed that they have been known to answer some rather pointless threads or shut down / moderate threads that have story "spoilers" or exploits but have avoided this issue in any of the threads started last week I'm starting to wonder.

[Mozivicus]

Ok, so....only 40K more views to go until a reply from devs???

[Seyyal]

i cant believe this isnt getting more attention

[Abizagiel]

At first it shocked me, then i got sad that my tank isn't working as i was said he would. Finaly i decided to check my character sheet and guess waht?

 

Shield chance works only for ranged and melee attacks, it wasn't a secret from the start. No wonder they still teach to understand what you read.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Abizagiel

[kikleon]

At first it shocked me, then i got sad that my tank isn't working as i was said he would. Finaly i decided to check my character sheet and guess waht?

 

Shield chance works only for ranged and melee attacks, it wasn't a secret from the start. No wonder they still teach to understand what you read.

 

yes but, #1 there is no combat log detailing 'backstab [Tech] critically hit you for 5432 [kinetic] damage', and there is no way to determine what attack type abilities are without having a character of that class. you can't roll an alt and check the trainer, it doesn't list attack types, data parsers don't have attack type listed on torhead or darthhater. All we have to go on is asking other players and intuition. But intution doesn't help when melee attacks are labeled as tech.

 

Really, why is 'backstab' a 'tech' attack? You are stabbing me, in the back. The only thing more melee than that is 'frontstab'.

[Jageera]

I ticketed the issue, referencing this thread. I'm really regretting picking up War Leader gear after finally finding out why I'm no less difficult to kill than a fresh 50. It's been frustrating, but now it's even more frustrating knowing why.

[xTyphoidx]

It only works on melee and ranged attacks...yea, and your point? What attack isn't ranged or melee? I kind of figured attacks are either one or the other. Casters and snipers for example, would be ranged. A dual wielding jedi up your rear smacking you with sabres would be melee. So that leaves what? Ranged and melee pretty moves covers the attacks i would think.

[Sanzibal]

It only works on melee and ranged attacks...yea, and your point? What attack isn't ranged or melee? I kind of figured attacks are either one or the other. Casters and snipers for example, would be ranged. A dual wielding jedi up your rear smacking you with sabres would be melee. So that leaves what? Ranged and melee pretty moves covers the attacks i would think.

 

You need to go read it again. You think wrong

[DrekorSilverfang]

yes but, #1 there is no combat log detailing 'backstab [Tech] critically hit you for 5432 [kinetic] damage', and there is no way to determine what attack type abilities are without having a character of that class. you can't roll an alt and check the trainer, it doesn't list attack types, data parsers don't have attack type listed on torhead or darthhater. All we have to go on is asking other players and intuition. But intution doesn't help when melee attacks are labeled as tech.

 

Really, why is 'backstab' a 'tech' attack? You are stabbing me, in the back. The only thing more melee than that is 'frontstab'.

 

...?

 

All of the database sites specifically list the damage type being done.

 

Here is some examples specifically about operatives:

 

Overload Shot

Blasts a target for ?? points weapon damage.

 

Backstab

Ambushes an enemy for ?? kinetic damage. Only usable while behind the target.

 

Corrosive Dart

Fires a dart at the target that deals ?? internal damage over 15.0 seconds.

 

Hidden Strike

Slips you out of stealth to stab the target with your energy blade for ?? points energy damage. Must be in stealth and behind a target to use.

 

Kinetic/Energy damage bypasses defenses however these two are both mitigated by armor.

 

Elemental/Internal bypass defense and have their own mitigation categories.

 

Weapon damage is the only one that runs into defense(and subsequently armor)

[Sempervivium]

OP: You are wise in the force .. everyone should take a serious listen here.

 

50 Tank Juggernaut here myself, I started collecting pvp dps gear for dual-spec in the future but noticed my surviveability didnt drop at all .. so i kept going, and never ever regretted it .. my tank-ness comes from Invincible, Rakata Medpack, Unstoppable and a parry/deflect here and there on basic shots/sniper shots.

[Abizagiel]

It only works on melee and ranged attacks...yea, and your point? What attack isn't ranged or melee? I kind of figured attacks are either one or the other. Casters and snipers for example, would be ranged. A dual wielding jedi up your rear smacking you with sabres would be melee. So that leaves what? Ranged and melee pretty moves covers the attacks i would think.

 

There are also tech and force attacks. Read carefully that first big post.

[Flarenza]

Looks like you need to read more carefully. All attacks are either ranged or melee. They are further classified into Weapon Damage, Force and Tech, and then it goes even further into Kinetic, Energy, Internal and Elemental.

[XenonParsec]

Yeah, so I'm queued up for PvP, playing a little huttball, while a Jugg powerwalks the ball into the endzone while 5 guys beat on him, a couple 50's (and me, a sorc 50) included. I thought of this dumb thread, and how there are so many baddie tanks thinking they need more mitigation when in reality they need more skill.

 

This thread and the OP are nothing more than an appeal for ez mode. Hence the reason for no reply. Let's please move on, mitigation and specific resistance types have always been a means of class balance, and tanks need to actually be killable.

 

If you're in full purple gear as a level 50 and whine about how fragile you are, you are clearly suffering from L2P.

[dynamitepop]

...?

 

All of the database sites specifically list the damage type being done.

 

Here is some examples specifically about operatives:

 

Overload Shot

Blasts a target for ?? points weapon damage.

 

Backstab

Ambushes an enemy for ?? kinetic damage. Only usable while behind the target.

 

Corrosive Dart

Fires a dart at the target that deals ?? internal damage over 15.0 seconds.

 

Hidden Strike

Slips you out of stealth to stab the target with your energy blade for ?? points energy damage. Must be in stealth and behind a target to use.

 

Kinetic/Energy damage bypasses defenses however these two are both mitigated by armor.

 

Elemental/Internal bypass defense and have their own mitigation categories.

 

Weapon damage is the only one that runs into defense(and subsequently armor)

 

So you can see why people feel, given the rather limited benefits stats such as absorbtion and defense have in pvp that the pvp armor is itemized poorly or perhaps that defensive stats along with the MANY talent points spent to boost such stats should be looked at and perhaps adjusted so as to have a more relevant role in the tanks pvp experience. It was Bio-Ware themselves who stated tanks could play significant roles in pvp. Right now we have taunt and guard, great abilities that have nothing to do with our defensive based pvp gear ( or again wasted talent points improving shields ) and leave us a "buffing class" ; making healers or dps live longer by sharing our health pools but unable to provide much in damage or even durability for ourselves.

[BobSassafrass]

Yeah, so I'm queued up for PvP, playing a little huttball, while a Jugg powerwalks the ball into the endzone while 5 guys beat on him, a couple 50's (and me, a sorc 50) included. I thought of this dumb thread, and how there are so many baddie tanks thinking they need more mitigation when in reality they need more skill.

 

This thread and the OP are nothing more than an appeal for ez mode. Hence the reason for no reply. Let's please move on, mitigation and specific resistance types have always been a means of class balance, and tanks need to actually be killable.

 

If you're in full purple gear as a level 50 and whine about how fragile you are, you are clearly suffering from L2P.

 

These are the trolls you are looking for.

 

I do this often and it has nothing to do with armor or defensive stats (since I don't use them).

 

1) Have a healer on the upper bridge healing the hell out of you.

2) Have unstoppable the 20% dmg reduction and snare immunity for 4 seconds.

3) Have huddle and intercede to a friendly getting 20% dmg reduction again.

4) Use saber ward and increase defense against a small amount of attacks.

5) Use endure pain giving you 30% hp increase for 10 seconds.

6) Use invincible giving you 40% dmg reduction for 10 seconds.

7) Have atleast 5% expertise.

 

And that's all it takes! Use every cooldown you have, plus gear and healer and you can take the whole team beating on you for about 10 seconds.

[TheronFett]

If you're in full purple gear as a level 50 and whine about how fragile you are, you are clearly suffering from L2P.

 

You are clearly suffering from lack of common sense.

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: the defense (or lack thereof) issue has caused me to finally shelve my Powertech. Honestly, I didn't have many issues at all while leveling up. But now that I'm L50 and trying to do endgame content and PvP, it's blatantly obvious that shields and defense are broken. So now I have a toon that is basically worthless as a tank...even though fully geared.

 

I don't mind being gimped for DPS, that's not what a tank is for. But when a L20 Jedi Sage can spam his rock throwing crap and shred me to pieces in seconds, something is wrong.

Edited January 16, 2012 by TheronFett

[XenonParsec]

1) Have a healer on the upper bridge healing the hell out of you.

2) Have unstoppable the 20% dmg reduction and snare immunity for 4 seconds.

3) Have huddle and intercede to a friendly getting 20% dmg reduction again.

4) Use saber ward and increase defense against a small amount of attacks.

5) Use endure pain giving you 30% hp increase for 10 seconds.

6) Use invincible giving you 40% dmg reduction for 10 seconds.

7) Have atleast 5% expertise.

 

And that's all it takes! Use every cooldown you have, plus gear and healer and you can take the whole team beating on you for about 10 seconds.

 

This sounds balanced to me, thanks for illustrating, and I've watched this happen to great effect in various scenarios.

 

So, with all these abilities and CDs to become nigh-invlunerable, explain how ADDTIONAL mitigation makes tanks more "balanced?"

 

Because yeah, I had to:

 

1) not be targeted by random ranged dps on the upper bridge

2) Pop rage stim for moar expertise

3) Pop crit stim for moar damage

4) Pop crit relic for even moar damage

5) Spam force lightning for insta-cast proc

6) get instacast proc, cast big damage spell, pray to crit gods for big numberz

7) had 5% expertise

 

To get the tank's hp bar to move a couple pixels, with others focusing also.

 

Tanks do not need more mitigation.

 

Tanks DO need a kleenex.