I've spec'd for it in builds and sometimes it doesn't seem like a good investment, that's true. I've interrupted casts ( or thought I did, with server lag you can't always be sure ) only to have them cast the same spell right after my riot strike went on cd. You feel a little cheated then, but, with all the other " tuning " issues in pvp right now it still seems worth it to me in a pvp build.

Shields are near worthless in pvp, at best they are offer a CHANCE to remove SOME of your incoming damage on only A FEW attacks that you see in pvp, and only those that don't crit. Thats it. And as for cooldowns to reduce damage a PT/vanguard gets to reduce their incoming damage 25% for 8 seconds every 2 min. That's it for damage reduction. They have a HOT that heals 15% over 10 seconds. ....so about 300 health a second on a 20000k healthpool tank for 10 seconds. Are those "greatly reducing" incoming damage?

You forgot Ilum and what ever the Tat pvp area is called, you can't forget those when talking about their pvp prowess

I play a vanguard and I don't feel we have many cooldowns at all, our best cooldown is our shield that gives us 25% damage reduction for 8 sec. That's less than the damage reduction a aoe taunt gives and available to ALL troopers dps or tanks. Our smoke grenade has the 20% accuracy debuff that only works on the few attacks we can actually shield so not much help since shields don't help much. That leaves the hot which is o.k. but not as good as the JK's extra health pool cooldown ( I liked it when we had that in beta ) as it doesn't heal for much...only 15% over 10 seconds, that's 3000 on a 20k healthpool. If you expect a 300/second heal to save you from "serious damage" then my definition of "serious damage" differs from yours. So the fourth one is a mystery to me .... maybe a trinket but shield chance or defense are borderline useless in pvp. ( like most of our mitigation skills ) so I have a hard time feeling like cooldowns are anything to get excited about as a vanguard.

I've been in WZ's when we had 10 players, actually that happens a few times a week for me. I think maybe there is a bug where one side may get more but the total is capped at 16. As republic I've won Alderaan 600 to 0 a few times cause it was 10-6 Rep to imp. Just one of the many bugs in the game, but it evens out because most likely that win wont count towards your daily total ( just another bug....)

Defense is useless in pvp, when was the last time you ever had someone dodge a attack? Our armor is 8% better than a dps commando due to talent points that's it. While our health pool is large (20k or so) we pay for that with poor dps, real poor. So a good dps class has 15-16 k and hit many times harder. Its not uncommon to get hit for 3-5k from a instant attack...I'll never deal that kinda damage and in the end a tank and a dps have a very similar "time to die" number in a wz. Against ungeared people my expertise helps more than any of my "tanking" talents or abilities, in a level 50 wz expertise is a wash but their damage scales so much from gear that my health pool cannot keep up. Duel them and see.

As a tank PT or vanguard, a REAL tank with shield spec. You aren't a "wrecking ball" in pvp, sorry. When I hear people say this it makes me wonder how hard they think other classes hit. In full champ gear my vanguards biggest attack is stock strike which in a 50 WZ does about 1800 Max and isn't ranged at all. We may look like we put out a lot of damage overall at the end of the match but look at their biggest hit and dps stats, just horrible. Most of the vanguard/ PT tank damage is aoe splash or ion cell dot which pad your total but don't make you a wrecking ball. In a one one one fight I've had a dps sorc. Bubble and heal to full as I beat on him ( I found him at 25-30%), since it takes so many hits for a "tank" ( in name only, we're as squishy as a commando) to break a shield. A PT or vanguard can do some good damage if spec'd as dps or medal farm with guard ( which is our best ability by far ) and taunt but a tank in his game can't kill anything and between shields not proc'ing on most damage AND crits from the few attacks that it can work against and with armor penetration given out like candy ( most attacks start out with 100% chance to hit with no chance of dodge plus accuracy on most pvp gear ) a tank only has his cooldowns , which vanguards only get the 20% accuracy debuff on ranged/melee attacks that proc. Shields .....so that's useless.our other shield is a 25% damage reduction for 8 sec. That all troopers/ BH get. It's funny that our taunts can mitigate more damage for others than our best cooldowns do for ourselves. We are not tanks we are support staff for the real warriors in a WZ the damage dealers and healers.

Now imagine a vanguard / powertech without shields and without all those cooldowns, cause that's were shield spec PT's are now.

It may be true that " quite a few " attacks seem to be shield-able, in practice these are not attacks that are used much in WZ's. If you factor in the fact that crit's wont be sheilded from those few attacks that can be shielded ( a high critical rating can push shield off the combat table ), shields begin to look even less effective. So tanks do have some basis for feeling that their sheilds are worthless, plus it hurts them again as some talents and energy replenishment need shield procs, which are very rare in pvp. That leaves tanks with high armor at least, but not only do some attacks bypass armor completely ,a sorc friend was telling me that accuracy acts as armor penetration for attacks that can't be dodged. I have not tested the armor pen. Story out yet ( he just told me last night ) and I hope he's wrong but it may explain why tanks feel a squishy as they do.

As a shield spec vanguard my big hit ( stock strike ) hits a nicely geared 50 SI for about 1300 -1500 critical. That's my big damage dealer after I pop my power relic and a expertise buff, as a full champion geared vanguard with the 5% damage boost due to guard. I can't hit any softer, the problem is I don't need to very far down the tank tree to get all the "tank goodness" that's available for pvp ( due to no Dodge/ shield ), after that I can spend my points in the damage trees and still have all the durability that a full shield spec tank in pvp now as a hybrid, because many of the tanks points are wasted. If I also start to wear dps gear instead of tank gear ( because defense and absorption and shield rating are useless ) my damage as a " tank" may seem high but those are really dps spec vanguards and not true tanks. True tanks would at least get the benefit of some durability to go with the damage trade off they have already made with their gear selection and talent choices.

The point is anyone with high expertise and a healer could do the same. As a shield spec vanguard I'm only bringing to the table 9% damage reduction through my talent points, which is great but all damage specs can bring some damage reduction through talent points AND bring in much more dps through their properly itemized gear and the synergy their talent trees have with their attacks. Tanks just have a few more % of damage reduction but a lot of wasted skill points and gear itemazation points that would be best ( in pvp ) spent elsewhere.

A shield spec vanguard couldn't put out any less dps. We have 1 real big hit ( stock strike ) that when you've spent 4 maybe 5 talent points to improve hits for 1300 on a nicely geared OP. I've once hit for 2512 or so ( I've gotten the 2.5 k hit medal once) as a 5/5 champ geared vanguard, who pop'd a power trinket and expertise buff against a WZ buffed level 12 or 14 operative. I can put up good numbers on the total damage done board but my Max hit is quite low. Most of my damage is hammershot and the little electric dot it leaves ( again because some of my resource replenishment is tied to shields and they dont proc. In pvp so you have to use your ammo wisely). On a good SI, it'll take 3-4 gcd's to break his shield and by then your about dead. The problem is that any tank AC while dps spec has much more damage but my same durability ( because my wasted talent points and poorly itemized gear ) so "tanks" or really dps talent trees in the tank AC get all the goodies that I bring to pvp ( guard and taunt plus my 1 cooldown ) while still in the dps tree doing nice damage.

It's not just about gear ( and I don't think I can swap the mods in my champ. Gear out. I'll have to check when I get home). People are forgetting it's also the talent points and design of the class that are affected by the lack of shielding in pvp. Powertech / vanguard tanks get resources from shielding, and have probably invested a good chunk of talent points in a ability that is negated to a large degree in pvp. That isn't necessarily a problem but Bio-Ware had stated that tanks would have a role in pvp and they designed PVP tank gear with this useless ( in pvp ) stat on it. All we would like is a comment from the devs as to why our gear was itemized this way, or some dialogue as to why we feel it's a poor design choice. They have gone to great lengths to make tanks viable in pvp with taunts and guard the way it is and I'm grateful, but this only makes me question the useless stats on our pvp gear even more.

Not much we can do really, other than complain on the forums. I guess we could try a walk out, organize a tank strike of both pvp and pve. But when has that ever worked.............

Pretty much useless. Expertise is our ( and everyone else's) best mitigation followed by Armor and a large health pool. Most attacks can't be shielded and those that can bypass our shields and defense ( dodge chance ) if they crit. So not much defense against those. As a tank start to think of yourself as a reserve health pool for a healer and guard him, 'cause as a true tank spec ( not pvp hybrid ) with horrible dps and no real tank mitigation that's all you are.

At least you have that many cooldowns to use, powertech/vanguard have the 25% damage bubble a 15% "heal" ( a hot thats only o.k.) and a -20% accuracy screen/slick that may or may not work on a few abilities in pvp ( probably only ranged and melee with our luck ) and that's it for cooldowns as a tank class. Any trinkets are mostly a waste as Dodge and shield don't work in pvp, so maybe jugg's are the best pvp tanks. Or a tank with a healer beats all.

So you can see why people feel, given the rather limited benefits stats such as absorbtion and defense have in pvp that the pvp armor is itemized poorly or perhaps that defensive stats along with the MANY talent points spent to boost such stats should be looked at and perhaps adjusted so as to have a more relevant role in the tanks pvp experience. It was Bio-Ware themselves who stated tanks could play significant roles in pvp. Right now we have taunt and guard, great abilities that have nothing to do with our defensive based pvp gear ( or again wasted talent points improving shields ) and leave us a "buffing class" ; making healers or dps live longer by sharing our health pools but unable to provide much in damage or even durability for ourselves.

This is not always the case. I've timed some of the "c.c free" resolve time and mine usually lasts about 8 -10 seconds.....and much of that time I may be slowed or rooted ( this weekend I was rooted unable to move as my white bar drained down to half before I could even take a step...after I had used my c.c break ability while at a full resolve bar. Roots do not count as c.c. ) The resolve bar has never given me 15-20 seconds of immunity. I'm not to upset about stuns, I just wish the resolve bar could refresh the cool down on your stun break as well.

At this point, I feel the lack of any response from either a tank dev or a pvp dev shows that they don't have any answer. If it is working as intended and the item points spent on defense and shield absorb. were ment to give so little back in return for balance, then, I would hope they would post and explain how they came to that conclusion. The forum silence may mean that they are testing diffrent methods to "fix" the itemzation on the PVP tank gear and are waiting until they have a real answer that doesn't imbalance the game before they let us know what they plan on doing...or it could mean that they don't care about the community. With the speed that they have been known to answer some rather pointless threads or shut down / moderate threads that have story "spoilers" or exploits but have avoided this issue in any of the threads started last week I'm starting to wonder.

Maybe they could have a full resolve bar refresh the cooldown on your "get out of c.c. " ability also ( they may want to adjust the rates that c.c. fills your resolve bar) so you don't always feel hesitation to use your one ability to free your character, for fear you may need it even more 45 seconds from now.

That's one of he stats I wish was on-screen at the end of the match, not just damage and healing but time stunned ( and rooted / slowed as they don't count as stunned ). I just want to get a idea of how much time per match I'm not in complete control of my character.

I'm a little confused here. I grapple them to get them near me and to interrupt...I do that all the time when it's not on cd ( and sometimes I storm in ). I then use my interrupt and stuns...I'm with you so far and do it all the time. I lose you when you tell me to grapple them again...aren't they right next to me? grapple to where? is my grapple now off cd ? I think the biggest problem with it is the auto facing, I just hate the way it looks to have a bent over BH shooting me with his eyes following me where ever I go.....just looking at me and shooting.....were ever I go.......

That's another issue that many have with "tank" stats in pvp. If I remember correctly back in the beta forums we were trying to figure out the combat tables and how mitigation, avoidance and shielding were calculated ( hard to do without logs and a much smaller population ). Questions like " did shield damage reduction apply before or after armor mitigation ?" It's a simple question but in beta we had no clarification as yet. I believe a dev did reply in that thread to clear some things up.one thing he said did worry me a little, something along the lines of " crit and accuracy have the ability if high enough to push avoidance off the table" and maybe that's part of the problem tanks are noticing. On paper it may look like they avoid and sheild a percentage of attacks but between the levels of accuracy and crit on gear and the talents to boost crit the real world protection is not there. In beta we could only guess as to what was happening because with the NDA we couldn't take a screen shot let alone get a fraps or combat log going, so it was all "seat of your pants" feel on our end. Just a thought.

At least you have gotten some purple recipes from that belt. I have r/e'd 42 blue redoubt belts and have yet to get any purple schematics from it. Made another 15 last night, so I'll try again when I get home. I wish I had your luck in r/e'ing these stupid belts.

As a shield spec vanguard, I too will laugh at you. In pvp I don't even get the ammo regen from shield procs ( 'cause they don't really happen in pvp ) that I wasted 2 talent points on. So please move along and start another nerf OP thread.