"Addons are stupid and WoW is easy."

[Sharma]

i sure can,

 

vanilla rag was much harder. do you have any idea the amount of hours it took to farm the elemental fires to get the fire resist for 40 people?

 

not to mention find 40 people that were good? pfft heroic rag 25 people? easy mode

 

offtopic tangent: your sig seems to be a misquote. its the 'power' of the force, not 'potential' of the force. i just googled it to double check and imdb looks to have it wrong too, maybe its where you got it from. all other sources i find say 'power'. if i wasnt at work i'd just load up the movie and triple check but im pretty sure its 'power'

[Drakks]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

Heroics started, what, three years after release? Right?

 

Addons are bad, and reduce the already meager skills that are involved in making a player good or bad -- they are skill selection and reaction time. There is and was nothing special about ANY WoW Heroic/hard mode kill because the addons did everything but move yoru character out of whatever color crap you weren't supposed to be standing in.

 

I, for one, hope they offer UI customization without any player modding -- and that they never allow macroing -- and before someone says something stupid, I wrote several mods and addons for my guild that held several server and one world first heroic kils, none of which I felt were worth a damn given what you could flash across the screen, while pressing one button to do 15 attacks based on situation.

 

To be honest, WoW was already the most dumbed down game I've ever played, the insane ability to script anything made it so much worse and is certainly a strong part of the reason I (and most of my guild) left.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Drakks

[Atlanis]

Whoever needs a Damagemeter, Equipcheck and Targetstarget to run a Ini in Normalmode is a fail player or group of players. I lately ran through Athiss with some pitchpached armormixed people.

 

We wiped the first time because we didn´t knew what how to stop the Addspawns and Knockback from the first boss, we worked round it. We died from the fire of the last boss the second time we worked round that.

 

Just to hear people whining for Damagemeters after ignoring the boss skills ignoring their own skills and just doing three skill attacks on a boss that has to be interuppted and kited at some point and were you have to hit your rarely used long cool down skills at some point to avoid dying and best position yourselfs tacticly wisely.

 

Get a grip and start learning what Challenge means and do it like the US Army: "We have big guns and know how to pull the trigger" be more like the ****** german submarine "killing" some US Carrier + Support Group after having dived aroud for half day in that Flottila and having even ascended to paint something on the Carriers hull.

"We have smalle guns but we know how to put them to use with the greatest effect."

 

 

Yeah, let the flames begin:D

[Mirthen]

It gives them a crazy advantage. A casual player has essentially no chance to contribute to a PvP warzone against people with tons of crazy minmaxing addons. In PvE, addons often lead to groups demanding that all players have certain addons, i.e., LF1M Healer for XXX, must have DamageMeter!

 

I cant think of much of any cases of ever seeing this in a game like WoW that is full of addons. I know of guilds that might require you to have something like deadlybossmods for progression raiding, but that's about the extent of players requiring others to have a certain addon to join in. in all my years playing WoW i have never once encountered a pug group saying you must have X addons in order to join. I can perhaps see it for a raid, but for the dungeons never.

 

I am a very casual player and i love addons, so don't clump people who don't like addons into some group called casual players. Your play style has absolutely nothing to do with you choice on using addons. I know "hardcore" players that use only what they are forced to use by their raiding guild, and i know casual players that never enter a raid who have so many addons running it takes more memory then the core game itself.

 

I would be overly thrilled if SWTOR had addons made for it. I would like to see more restraints then what blizzard has on what addons are acceptable in game though.

 

Either that or more customizations for the game itself. movable frames, color schemes, resize, moving action bars, so on. Plus some of the basics that addons provide. like the ever so mentioned damage meters.

[Azyurel]

Many ways this is possible.

 

Rift has one fatal flaw, its class mechanics are to similar to World of Warcraft's, its also a big strength if they can come up with better boss mechanics.

 

Lets face it, there is only so many ways a group of developers can think to make a boss different, Rift players are also young ( new game ) compared to the 6 year vets of WoW where nothing seems new even the Deathwing encounter.

 

Young players? Most the community in Rift are old WoW players and EQ2 raiders. It's filled with some of the most senior MMO players that I've known.

 

Also they've completely reworked a lot of class mechanics since launch and much the "similarity" is gone.

 

I played wow for 6 years before I quit for rift, and I'd have to say I thoroughly enjoyed most the raid content Rift put out.

[Azyurel]

i sure can,

 

vanilla rag was much harder. do you have any idea the amount of hours it took to farm the elemental fires to get the fire resist for 40 people?

 

not to mention find 40 people that were good? pfft heroic rag 25 people? easy mode

 

Old rag's mechanics are laughable to today's standards.

 

What you are talking about is an artificial road block, a grind implemented in the game that was designed to be a progression wall. If you didn't have the fire resist it was an issue.

 

Having to gear for resist is not a difficulty check, it is a gear check / grind check.

 

So the proper term would be it was more time consuming, not difficult.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Azyurel

[Oteraign]

Please do not put a deadlybossmods or gearscore in this game.

[Ultratron]

It gives them a crazy advantage. A casual player has essentially no chance to contribute to a PvP warzone against people with tons of crazy minmaxing addons. In PvE, addons often lead to groups demanding that all players have certain addons, i.e., LF1M Healer for XXX, must have DamageMeter!

 

 

That's just flat out non-sense. Most of the best PvPers in the world in WoW didn't even use addon's and ***** everyone just the same. To think that ANY addon gave a player a huge advantage in PvP is complete ignorance. I mean come on man, you act like there was an addon that made their abilities do more damage...

 

As for your final statement. In 5 years of playing WoW I have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen anyone say LFM Must have xxx addon for a 5 man group.

 

If we want to be constructive, lets try to not just fabricate ******** that has no merit.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Ultratron

[Drakks]

That's just flat out non-sense. Most of the best PvPers in the world in WoW didn't even use addon's and ***** everyone just the same. To think that ANY addon gave a player a huge advantage in PvP is complete ignorance. I mean come on man, you act like there was an addon that made their abilities do more damage...

 

As for your final statement. In 5 years of playing WoW I have NEVER and I mean NEVER seen anyone say LFM Must have xxx addon.

 

If we want to be constructive, lets try to not just fabricate ******** that has no merit.

 

You're either lying to make a point, or completely oblivious.

 

They didn't use mods in competition because they weren't allowed -- and this was so the fights didn't come down to who hired the best modder -- when ever they played on production servers, they all used them. Hell, some of them even wrote a few. Several world-rated rogues on their blogs would highlight what they were using regularly, as well as how and what their macros were -- and then hardware macros on top of them

 

Mods and macros give a massive benefit in pvp, as they give the ability to automate resposes, or insanely clear indicators of actions that need highlighting and could be overlooked in the middle of a fight. This isn't even mentioning the conditional macros used so that triggered abilities were automated.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Drakks

[Ultratron]

This thread is about mods, not macros.

 

Macro's give a huge advantage.

 

But in current WoW there is nothing you can do with a mod fundamentally that isn't doable with the basic WoW UI atm. The only thing that gave any sort of heads up advantage was Power Aura's and that is already implemented into the game.

 

Also, they did not allow mod's in the tournament scene because they were typically played on public computers and it was too much of a hassle to get every players mods loaded each match, just so they could have a UI placement that they are used to.

 

I played at Gladiator levels and never used a single mod besides Power Aura's (which isn't even a mod because it's implemented directly into the current game).

 

Name a single mod that gives you a massive advantage in PvP for WoW.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Ultratron

[Trigenetic]

It essentially boils down to people saying we dont want it so you cant have it either.

 

If you dont want it dont use it

 

If you cant beat someone in pvp because you dont have macro's and he/she your probably not good enough in the first place (i'm sure the world class ones can do 99% of the same stuff without) i know i'm not, even with macro's i'll never be more than a mediocre pvp player, not the worst but never the best. I'm about equally good with or without macro's belive it or not.

 

Its also possible to restrict it a little so you dont get addons like bossmods which is fine but dont throw all addons on the same line, there's just too many good ones out there, Prat for example is great, who can say they dont miss copy/paste. Lots of bag addons (and with lua i'm sure they can be ported here) and so on. So please stop your no addons policy, its just silly and bioware will loose a lot of subs if they dont.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Trigenetic

[Azyurel]

Couldn't agree more Edited January 4, 2012 by Trineda
removing quote

[Manv]

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

This this this this this this this this this this this this this. Where's the Like button.

[Kneemo]

i don't understand the idea that those who don't want add-ons "don't want people to know they're bad."

 

that's not even the case majority of the time.

 

for the most part, i don't care either way whether we get them or not. i don't use them so it's whatever to me. but the "if you don't want to use them then don't" is fine and dandy until they shape the game around add-ons and content pretty much requires that you use them.

 

at that point my choice in the matter is gone. once it gets to the point where you can not succeed without them it ruins it for me.

 

i've raided before in other games with those that had meters and i didn't. we all did just fine. the people with meters never complains that those without were doing "too little dps." are the meters even necessary when the game tells you what you need? "gee, move A does n damage and move B does m damage. i should obviously use A. but wait, with this buff, move B gets a x% increase, boosting it above A. i'll use that move instead thanks to this buff." simple math.

 

use your add-ons if you want, as long as bioware can go without tailoring content around them. but don't assume everybody that doesn't use them is a bad player. it's merely common-mmo-sense.

[Sythrasz]

at that point my choice in the matter is gone. once it gets to the point where you can not succeed without them it ruins it for me.

That's exactly the thing, this argument is 100% speculation. People being able to customize the UI does not mean that the game will NECESSARILY evolve in a way which requires them. it might, but it might also not. Have some faith in BW on that point imo

[Kneemo]

That's exactly the thing, this argument is 100% speculation. People being able to customize the UI does not mean that the game will NECESSARILY evolve in a way which requires them. it might, but it might also not. Have some faith in BW on that point imo

 

i agree, i have no issues with customizing the UI. no problems at all.

 

and yes, this is speculation. and i too can only hope that bioware can balance it if it's implemented. but like i said, i will be sorely upset if the game ends up dependent on them.

 

by the way, what i mean by the game depending on them is when it's nearly humanly impossible to do what is necessary in a fight without the "aid" (for lack of a better word) of mods. as long as i can still do it the old fashioned way, i'm good. but i should not be punished for choosing to not use them.

[Jpope]

It is a way to stop Elitism. You are saying someone is bad based on how much damage they do. I would get groups in WoW where they would castigate one player out of the group if they weren't doing a certain amount of dps.

[AlistairC]

DBM and such arent needed in SWTOR. Pretty much all the bosses abilities are telegraphed in such clarity that if you miss em you deserve the death. This is assuming that the ToR raid bosses are similar in their mechanics/design/whatever.

 

That being said UI Customization a'la Bartender would increase my enjoyment alot. Target of Target would be sweet for tanks and dps alike.

 

As for damage meters and gearscore. The first is a nice tool for your personal skill. The second one I never ever used. Then again I was in the same guild from Vanilla to Cata downing every boss the game had to offer so I never had the need for it. Still, its a silly addon. If you dont wanna pug, join a guild.

 

Macros arent the devil either. Its a godsend to lessen the pain of clunky mechanics that might never get fixed. Or just adding enjoyment to the game (please observe that this does not refer to One Key to Rule em all-macros).

[Sythrasz]

It is a way to stop Elitism. You are saying someone is bad based on how much damage they do. I would get groups in WoW where they would castigate one player out of the group if they weren't doing a certain amount of dps.

Are you denying that people can be bad in a way that causes them to underperform drastically?

[Steelyeye]

Always been my experience that addons cover up bad play. You can train a monkey to run heroics in WoW with the right addons. Anyone can be a master raider with the addons, no matter how much you suck at it. Edited January 4, 2012 by Steelyeye

[Sythrasz]

by the way, what i mean by the game depending on them is when it's nearly humanly impossible to do what is necessary in a fight without the "aid" (for lack of a better word) of mods. as long as i can still do it the old fashioned way, i'm good. but i should not be punished for choosing to not use them.

Uhm, what MMO has this might I ask? The answer is not WoW.

[Solaufein]

THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS.

 

Why do I care. Because, in WoW, eventually the game designers were designing content with the use of those addon resources in mind. Try Heroic raids without any addons. Hmmm?

 

I'm not for spoiling anyone else's fun, but prefer game development to remain exclusively in the hands of Bioware / EA and not addon developers.

 

That said - I'm all for resources that make the information more readily available for dissection, e.g. combat logs etc. I think most of us that are against addons are just super-cautious that this new game we've fallen for doesn't end up like WoW.

 

Nothing against the hardcore gaming community - I'm more casual btw - just don't want the general community flooded with wannabee hardcore gamers. Those that think they're great and take every opportunity to devalue the whole experience for the rest of us.

 

Case of who do I trust? Bioware or addon developers. Caution is all this is.

[Sythrasz]

Why do I care. Because, in WoW, eventually the game designers were designing content with the use of those addon resources in mind. Try Heroic raids without any addons. Hmmm?

You do know that blizzard implemented giant "THE BOSS IS DOING X" messages into the default UI right? You don't NEED mods to raid. They are nice to have though.

[Solaufein]

You do know that blizzard implemented giant "THE BOSS IS DOING X" messages into the default UI right? You don't NEED mods to raid. They are nice to have though.

 

Yeah. I was just leaving WoW when that came in.

 

What would be great is addons - or a degree of customisation - that are very carefully implemented and thought through to avoid misuse, i.e. Bartender type addons and external combat logs, e.g. World of Logs etc. They'd be cool.

 

What I absolutely don't want to see is in-game Recount type resource. I kinda like the idea of WoL taking some skill to interpret - what's not cool is having Recount (et al) misinterpreted, where DPS is the be all and end all. In 8 man hardmode Ops, I'm almost certain appropriate use of each classes versatility / survivability tools will be equally as valuable.

 

tbh, I'm not sure that both sides of this fence are really disagreeing. What we ALL want is an optimum gaming experience - it's just that my side of the fence may be looking for caution in implementation.

[Krazzo]

Lots of people that are complaining are missing the facts.. WoW peaked at 12 million subscribers. WoW had hardcore and casual progression available to all. Maybe some of these mods made the fight easier but all were still achievable without mods. I still have friends in top 50 world guilds I used to raid with that use very little mods sub some screen clean up.

 

Basically what I'm saying is if even 10 million of those 12 used mods, and most people do, money talks. And BW likes money.. and I like my mods.

 

Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love...