"Addons are stupid and WoW is easy."

[Rattius]

The problem with some addons is that they trivialize encounters so much that future content is designed around having those addons. This forces anyone who doesn't enjoy data crunching to use them. I am a min/maxer like many and I do miss some of the required raid addons I used in WoW, but I have to admit it is also quite relaxing to be free of them. I just hope they strike a balance so that you have some choice in regards to the half dozen raiding addons that are required to even clear trash. I love them until they become a required crutch for encounters.

 

Will a moderator please sticky this and / all add-on threads.

 

If you need a threat meter to tank, your tanking is fail.

 

If you need mouseover casting to heal, your healing is fail.

 

Talk is cheap. Anyone can say "I'm epic! You're a baddie!". If people actually want to be known as being HC, they should be willing to clear the content without these crutches (which is exactly what they are).

[Raeln]

If [Game Developer] needs to add more information on the screen in order to be able to design interesting encounters, yet keep them within the skill of the majority of the playerbase, then I welcome it.

 

Those messages didn't dumb down the game, it allowed blizzard to design more complex encounters without shutting out the majority of players. If blizzard kept doing tank n spank encounters after they added the messages, then it'd be dumbed down.

 

Relative increase in information accompanied by a relative increase in amount of information needed is a good thing.

 

One might assert that the "increase in encounter complexity" might not have been required if addons to make the original designs easier were not permitted.

[Rattius]

This is really the only thing I want Bioware to implement. I can heal without it but it is not fun for me to heal without mouse over healing.

 

The currently implemented focus target system is okay for duo'ing but when in a group where more than the tank takes damage, it is not fun to have to manually target each person, then click a heal.

 

Why click on two things when one click would suffice just fine.

 

That's what F1-F8 are for.

[theadjectivenoun]

This just goes to show that you have not a single clue what you are talking about.

 

Heroic Ragnaros was THE HARDEST encounter ever implemented into the game. You can't even deny that.

 

actually I can deny that, first time kill, yeah WoW is boring and they'll continue to make the dungeons and raids easier and easier, cause the casual gamer wants to be spoon fed and their hand held.

[Raeln]

 

If you need mouseover casting to heal, your healing is fail.

 

What is wrong with mouseover casting?

[Raeln]

That's what F1-F8 are for.

 

So you basically want healers to have to click two buttons each time they need to heal a different target. Interesting. Can we require DPSers to have to retarget their boss after each ability they use? Somehow, I think they would resent having to click twice for each of their abilities.

 

I hate using the F1 through F8 keys. They require me to remove my hand from the rest of my keybinds. The reason I use mouseover casting is so I can bind my heals to my additional mouse buttons. In WoW with Clique, this meant that I didn't even need to have my healing spells on my bars and could reduce the number of actionbars that I had on the screen. My heals were mapped to my mouse buttons.

 

I kept my other abilities on my primary hotkeys and often DPS'd during lulls in healing.

 

In Rift, I simply created a single macro for each heal that used a mouseover target rather than my selected target. I still had to have my heals out on my actionbars but it was still more enjoyable for me to heal than it is in TOR.

[Masoa]

Most of the people here that don't want addons actually want them, but at the same time want you to feel mad because someone disagrees with you. Welcome to cyber bullying.

[Lord_Lunacy]

Welcome to cyber bullying.

 

A.K.A. Douchecockery.

[Yoggs]

That's what F1-F8 are for.

 

What about the other 8 people in a 16 man Ops?

 

 

Really, the healing issues could be solved if they made the Ops frames better. Larger debuffs, showed if they were already getting a heal cast on them, and had some way for you to place a marker on the tanks. With that I could deal with clicking on them and using the hotkeys to heal instead of mouse over functionality, although I'd prefer mouse over.

 

Give us our meters, just make them non linkable.

 

For the love of god let us customize our bars better and get rid of those huge portraits. Give us more keybind options, like shift+mouse keys, or different keyboard keys+mouse keys. Options, Options options! Oh yeah, and a proper target of target function

 

Really that's all we need for raiding.

 

I'd also love a better GTN UI or the ability to customize it.

[anstalt]

"Addons" as a generalisation are stupid to argue over. Different addons have very different purposes and massively different effects on the game.

 

From reading most of this thread, most of the people who are argueing against addons are only argueing against the addons which directly affect gameplay, i.e. addons that gather metrics (dps meters, threat meters), addons that trivialise content (boss addons that warn you about special skills) and addons that do stuff for you (macros, automatic responses etc).

 

Also, it seems that most people who are arguing for addons just want proof of their skills and justification for being elite. Thats fine too but honestly, most people know whether they are good or whether they are bad and you should know too. Its fairly rare that you get someone who is clueless but doesn't realise it.

 

 

 

My personal standpoint is that I am against anything that affects gameplay. DPS meters and threat meters are a crutch, plain and simple. DPS meters are also fairly useless in anything that involves complexity as every class has buffs/debuffs, self heals etc etc. In most boss fights doing these things will improve the chance of success and you'll be a better player, but the DPS meter wont reflect that. Good raiders and good leaders know who is pulling their weight and who isn't.

 

Addons that display extra information (e.g. boss is doing X skill) is basically just trivialising content and giving those with the addon an unfair advantage. Again, use your brains and figure things out for yourself. You don't need these addons.

 

Addons that have no effect on the rest of the game, however, I'm all for. So, UI addons are excellent and I wish we already had them. I'd love to rearrange my screen, free up some space, make the chat window easier to read etc. I'd love a personal DPS meter. I don't care what other people are doing and virtually nothing is a pure DPS race, but a personal DPS meter means that I can test rotations for myself and see what is best, what works, what doesn't etc. That is self improvement without epeen or comparisons to others.

[jayderyu]

Yes please. Addon's... I also must put in a complaint to Bioware for more addons. I want addons for these following games.

 

Dragon Age

KotoR

Jade Empire

Baldurs Gate

Never Winter Nights

Mass Effect

 

also on a note even though Bioware does not have these games I want add ons for

Street Fighter

Mega Man

Red Dead Redemption

Grand Theft Auto

Arkahm batman series of games

God of War

Meat Boy

Skyrim

Skyward Sword and every Zelda game

Need for Speed series

Call of Duty series

Left for Dead series

DPS meter for Minecraft

LA Noir

Price is Right

Lair

Naruto Ninja Storm

Smash Brothers

Lost in Blue

Blue Ocean

Flora

Project Zomboid

 

an many many more

 

These GAME MUST have Add-ons. I mandatory require the ability to min max my game play so I can be good at these games. If I do NOT get Add-ons for these games(at least Biowares). I will not buy any future of these games. They just suck and these companies have wasted their time making a low quality inferior product.

[trachyphylia]

Why in every MMO out there, they provide forum like this....to accomodate some childish remarks and comments.... Just play the game people...who cares if you use add on or not...if you get owned on pvp and u dont like it, just leave the game. End of story. I played WOW down to Naxx and I stoped...as it began to get boring. SWTOR is indeed revolutionary, end of story...no matter what you use add on or not.

[Sythrasz]

One might assert that the "increase in encounter complexity" might not have been required if addons to make the original designs easier were not permitted.

One might also infer that raiding would have been very boring if that was the case.

[Raeln]

One might also infer that raiding would have been very boring if that was the case.

 

I don't know. I think raiding was more fun for me before I felt like I should have to use a plethora of addons (or be required to).

Edited January 4, 2012 by Raeln

[fireflyking]

I don't feel that "addons are stupid" as I used a plethora of them in WoW. If you didn't use them in WoW then it was more difficult to keep up with the other healers. It's very difficult to heal on par with someone using mouse over macros if you aren't as well as they have a distinct advantage.

 

That being said, I do agree that they should not implement addons in this game.

 

I'm not saying that I wouldn't use them if they were there, because I would. However if they are there then you're giving a disadvantage to anyone who doesn't use them. This includes people who don't like them, or people who are in no way tech savvy and don't know how to download or set them up. Therefore those people who don't want to use them are being forced to either use them or be sub-par of those who do choose to use them.

 

How many of you support steroid use in sports such as baseball? Do you think that if a player wants to use steroids they should be allowed to do so? I'm going to guess that most people are going to answer no to that question on the same principle of what I just said about addons. If players were allowed to use steroids then anyone not using them would be at a disadvantage and would feel obligated to use them anyway even if they don't want to.

 

I'm aware that addons aren't the same thing as steroids and I'm not saying that it's exactly the same situation. I'm just using it as an example because it does have distinct similarities.

 

Hopefully some of you at least will see that this makes sense and understand why "don't like them don't use them" is not a valid argument and why some of us feel that addons should not be implemented. I cringe every time I see someone use that followed by "nuff said" as their argument.

[Sythrasz]

I don't know. I think raiding was more fun for me before I felt like I should have to use a plethora of addons (or be required to).

There are other plausible causes for raiding being more fun pre-addon, such as it being a new, novel experience. Once gathering a big group of people to kill stuff with lots of HP is no longer exciting in itself, then encounter design will need to carry the raiding game. Let's not even begin with how much rose-tinted glasses play into this.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Sythrasz

[Malig]

Add-ons are a really nice thing. They aren't required and I didn't even use them in WoW before near the end of Wrath. The only thing I had was vent and a hatred of all things undead. Eventually I started getting into add-ons, yes I got a DPS meter, why? To physically see how awesome my frost mage was doing ( even though everyone said frost mage was worst DPS I constantly beat everyone's dps.) and to , yes, pick out the bads. When I'm in a fight and we've lost four times in a row now with excellent raid awareness I want to know " Why the hell are we dying?" I look at the DPS/heals per second meter... " SO who's the weak link and is it possible I can help them improve their DPS/heals through my knowledge of the class?"

 

I also got MRP and some UI editing add-ons because that's how I wanted to have 'my interface' look. MRP is a great role-playing tool and UI editors change the interface so you can play exactly as you want to... these aren't min/maxing tools in the slightest.

 

Your complaints are," It makes the game less fun for casual players." No, it doesn't several of these tools make the game even more exciting and fun for casual players. As for raiding... why are you raiding if you're a casual player? Raiding is designed for the more hardcore gamers of the player base. As for the dungeons or 'flashpoints' it'd be nice to see who's pulling their weight and ask the 'bads' ( yes if you are bringing the rest of the group down you're a bad.) what they are doing and actually assist them in becoming better. I've never simply kicked someone for not min-maxing, just trying to assist when the rest of the party is having their game ruined by someone who either A) doesn't know how so we can help them... or B) refuses to play the class as it's meant to be played in a flashpoint setting and won't change no way no how no matter what I say. Those people will be booted for bringing the rest of the fun from the party as they are entirely uncooperative.

[Delassa]

I burst out laughing in your face.

 

Someone who got World #9 Illidan + light of dawn + hallion 25hm (all when it was current) says it really, really isnt.

 

Go play Super Meat Boy or VVVVVVV, they're hard. Wow isn't. It's retardedly easy.

 

 

Better yet, I Wanna Be the Boshy or I wanna be the guy.

 

Also Kotor and Dragon Age 1 and 2 had addons and modding.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Delassa

[Raeln]

There are other plausible causes for raiding being more fun pre-addon, such as it being a new, novel experience. Once gathering a big group of people to kill stuff with lots of HP is no longer exciting in itself, then encounter design will need to carry the raiding game. Let's not even begin with how much rose-tinted glasses play into this.

 

I raided for years in EQ1 with no addons and enjoyed it.

 

I raided for months in WoW before Addons became.... expected. Granted, CT_RaidAssist was mandatory to raid in early WoW at all because WoW didn't have default raid frames - yet, once damage meters and decursive began to get "big", it seemed to go downhill fast.

[Sythrasz]

I raided for years in EQ1 with no addons and enjoyed it.

 

I raided for months in WoW before Addons became.... expected. Granted, CT_RaidAssist was mandatory to raid in early WoW at all because WoW didn't have default raid frames - yet, once damage meters and decursive began to get "big", it seemed to go downhill fast.

That's funny, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx were the high points of raiding for me. Maybe I just happened to raid with sensible people. Out of interest, would you advocate the way bosses worked in EQ for todays raid enviroment? You can't deny that's part of the excitement in EQ. If everyone could just go and kill any boss (because it'd be instanced), would you have enjoyed the sea of basically tank n spank fo 40 minutes encounters?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Sythrasz

[Yazule]

personally i think organizing raids with 40 people was far more difficult than 25, so much moreso that even though the boss's in 25 may be harder, but 40 man raids were overall actually harder just due to the sheer number of people.

 

just my opinion

[Osnodon]

This just goes to show that you have not a single clue what you are talking about.

 

Heroic Ragnaros was THE HARDEST encounter ever implemented into the game. You can't even deny that.

 

That's ********. HLK at 0% buff (5% when we started work on him) was way worse than heroic rag. Atleast from my experience with a top 50 US 25 man guild.

[Rattius]

...most people who are arguing for addons just want proof of their skills and justification for being elite. Thats fine too but honestly, most people know whether they are good or whether they are bad and you should know too. Its fairly rare that you get someone who is clueless but doesn't realise it.

 

I think that for the most part, people are just set in their ways and refuse to learn a different way of doing things. They want their old game, but with lightsabers and blasters.

 

Example: As an infiltration-specc'd Shadow, I don't want a threat bar to tell me when I'm about to peel aggro. In the end, I'll (as will anyone) be a better player if I develop my own internal sense of when I'm about to peel. In my mind, that is part of being a good player; as is efficient targeting skills. With the addition of all these little hand-holding devices, good DPS becomes little more than a mindless 3 button shuffle.

 

 

 

IOW: If people really want to be considered awesome players, they should be eager to clear the content without their old crutches. L2P the game in front of you as it was designed rather than asking it to be made into the game you used to play.

 

...just my 2 credits

[Darthsepremous]

I would just like a bartender type add on and I'll be happy.

[MetallicaRulez]

Example: As an infiltration-specc'd Shadow, I don't want a threat bar to tell me when I'm about to peel aggro. In the end, I'll (as will anyone) be a better player if I develop my own internal sense of when I'm about to peel. In my mind, that is part of being a good player; as is efficient targeting skills. With the addition of all these little hand-holding devices, good DPS becomes little more than a mindless 3 button shuffle.

 

How exactly do you "get a sense" for when you're going to pull aggro? There are so many variables involved that it's practically impossible. Threat drop boss abilities, your own threat dumps, tank knockdowns and stuns, tank miss streaks... it's impossible to judge when you will pull aggro without a meter or voice chat so the tank can call out "hey I'm stunned and missing a lot".

 

People vastly overestimate how much effect addons actually have on the gameplay of an MMO. Most (if not all) addons are quality of life enhancements (mailbox, auction, UI addons) or provide additional information, or provide information in a better format (damage meters, threat meters, boss ability timers, cooldown timers). There hasn't been an addon that actually plays the game for you since vanilla WoW, and even that was quickly broken by Blizzard because it was retarded.