7.4 GTN Preview Live on PTS

[Darkestmonty]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:10 AM, Darthjantom said:

I have never heard of anyone "accidentally" buying an item for 3 billion, people don't buy stuff "accidentally" listed at those amounts. Certainly not cheap crap like crafted dyes etc. And even if this was a thing, which it wasn't, the new GTN already fixes this because all listings for an item are shown together with the cheapest always at the top.

I did a search in armor, weapons, dyes, and they all had trash items and player made items listed at 3 billion credits. Not just one or two items but pages of listings. This tactic has been going on for years since inflation made it common for people to carry billions on their characters and thanks to category listings like Name, Level, Time, Seller, Price, Unit Price being buggy it works.

7.4 eliminates this exploit. Players will always buy the lowest priced possible item even though they can see the prices of the following items. This is an improvement over the current GTN system.

 

On 10/31/2023 at 10:10 AM, Darthjantom said:

And what is stopping them from listing all their dark projects on the new GTN just a few credits cheaper then the other current listings? The only difference now is if someone (or multiple someones) lists a crap ton of the same item AFTER you have listed yours, just cheaper then yours, and yours don't sell before your listings run out, you will basically have lost credits on it. As the dev post states: "You’ll always get the best available listing when you click purchase." Undercutting will continue to be the norm because the lowest listings will be the top listing and sell first.

Instead you get to pay credits to GTN even if your stuff doesn't sell, so now you are paying a "tax" regardless if stuff sells or not.

The new posting fees for the GTN are going to cost more to post, cancel, and repost repeatedly. With the current GTN pricing to post being both insignificantly low and refundble, people cancel and repost their auctions multiple times a day undercutting anyone with cheaper prices. I've done it myself when selling resources and the primary reason I can do this is it only costs a few thousand, not tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands but less than 5,000 credits to cancel and repost pages of resources.

7.4 maybe too costly for a lot of players to continue this behavior.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[LadyAdmiral]

 

• When I click the bar / name of the item in the buy listings - I want it to open the same window as when I hit the teeny-tiny green credits button
• When I went to try and buy a hypercrate. I saw that there was 5 listed and their different prices. I wanted to buy all 5. So I tried to type in 5 in the Quantity box and it kept resetting to 1 and it was very confusing. I was later informed that it was because if the item is not stackable, you can only buy 1 at a time. The text box for quantity should be visible but disabled (can't type or trigger typing bar sign) to make this clearer. This got even more confusing, when I found an item that was not stackable, but had 2 of the same item listed at the same price, and I still couldn't type "2" in the quantity box. 
• In the box on the right of an opened listing, you can see "1" and the price in a list. Please put labels at the tp to make it clearer that these are quantity and price, and a title above the labels saying something like "items listed for sale". It's not super clear what that box is.  
• Recent range is what, a week? or more or less?
• Historic range - is this a month? a year?
• For the ranges, what do the colors of the boxes on the slider mean? I've seen red and green.
• When I was selling an item, I understood the concept of the buyers tax, but i wasnt sure what number would show up for the buyer in the listing. I see now the "buyers price" is what shows up in the listing, but i couldn't figure that out from just looking at the list-an-item page.
• I want to sell my [Desh Armor Assembly Component] for 1 credit less than the lowest one currently listed on the GTN. When I search for  [Desh Armor Assembly Component] i see that there are 8 listed at 5,300 credits as the lowest price. So, I want my item to be listed as 5,299. When I go to list it, I can't type in 5,299, because with the buyers tax, this will raise the listed price to 5,617 credits. I can't figure out an easy way to make it the right price because I don't even know exactly what % it's being taxed at and I don't feel like doing algebra right now. The only way I could figure out how to get it to list at 5,299 was by randomly lowering the price in the unit price until the buyers price matched (4,999 by guess and check)

@Darkestmonty thanks so much for posting the screenshots! It was really helpful.

[Darkestmonty]

11 minutes ago, LadyAdmiral said:

• I want to sell my [Desh Armor Assembly Component] for 1 credit less than the lowest one currently listed on the GTN. When I search for  [Desh Armor Assembly Component] i see that there are 8 listed at 5,300 credits as the lowest price. So, I want my item to be listed as 5,299. When I go to list it, I can't type in 5,299, because with the buyers tax, this will raise the listed price to 5,617 credits. I can't figure out an easy way to make it the right price because I don't even know exactly what % it's being taxed at and I don't feel like doing algebra right now. The only way I could figure out how to get it to list at 5,299 was by randomly lowering the price in the unit price until the buyers price matched (4,999 by guess and check)

If there were two fields when posting an auction "Price" and "Price with Taxes" players could use the "Price with Taxes field" to undercut the lowest listing since we only see prices with taxes included when viewing listings.

You are welcome for the screenshots, I'm on the PTS posting items and testing how the GTN works so taking screenshots is easy for answering questions.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Darthjantom]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

The new posting fees for the GTN are going to cost more to post, cancel, and repost repeatedly. With the current GTN pricing to post people cancel and repost their auctions multiple times a day undercutting anyone with cheaper prices. I've done it myself when selling resources and the primary reason I can do this is it only costs a few thousand, not tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands but less than 5,000 credits to cancel and repost pages of resources.

There is a simple solution for this then, don't refund the listing fee if people intentionally cancel their listings. Do refund if a listing expires normally after the set time/days when it doesn't sell.

Rest of the GTN changes seem good to me, this is my only real negative thing for me is the fees not refunding if a listing expires and doesn't sell (for the reasons myself, VegaMist & TrixxieTriss already mentioned earlier in this thread). People listing stuff at rediculous prices isn't an issue, I never heard of anyone falling victim to those, and even if it was 7.4 already fixes it anyways by having people automatically buy the cheapest listings of the chosen item they are buying.

[Darkestmonty]

7 minutes ago, Darthjantom said:

There is a simple solution for this then, don't refund the listing fee if people intentionally cancel their listings. Do refund if a listing expires normally after the set time/days when it doesn't sell.

Rest of the GTN changes seem good to me, this is my only real negative thing for me is the fees not refunding if a listing expires and doesn't sell (for the reasons myself, VegaMist & TrixxieTriss already mentioned earlier in this thread). People listing stuff at rediculous prices isn't an issue, I never heard of anyone falling victim to those, and even if it was 7.4 already fixes it anyways by having people automatically buy the cheapest listings of the chosen item they are buying.

or keep the posting fees non-refundable since sellers no loner pay taxes and we need more credit sinks in the game.

The only issue I have, and that is tentative because I don't know the current growth of inflation, is a 14.95% sales tax to buyers for higher priced items. It feels a bit high to me.

I think not refunding posting fees is a smart choice.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

7.4 eliminates this exploit. Players will always buy the lowest priced possible item even though they can see the prices of the following items. This is an improvement over the current GTN system.

 

Not true. Not all people buy lowest price first. I always skip instant undercutters, credits sellers, sale runners, GTN whales and GTN players because I don't want to support those low lifers. 

This system will force us to support credit sellers and other exploiters, if the seller name stays hidden. It needs to be visible. 

 

12 minutes ago, Darthjantom said:

There is a simple solution for this then, don't refund the listing fee if people intentionally cancel their listings. Do refund if a listing expires normally after the set time/days when it doesn't sell.

I like this idea. 

[Darkestmonty]

43 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Not true. Not all people buy lowest price first. I always skip instant undercutters, credits sellers, sale runners, GTN whales and GTN players because I don't want to support those low lifers.

I have been caught paying more for an item than the lowest price listed because the category details didn't change like they were suppose to. I would click Low to High but it wouldn't change and I would end up buying the item for more than the lowest listed price. Mostly I blame myself because I know the category listings (Rarity, Name, Level, Time, Seller, Price, Unit Price) can be bugged and I didn't double check. But the fact still remains, a lot of people end up purchasing more expensive options by mistake.

43 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

This system will force us to support credit sellers and other exploiters, if the seller name stays hidden. It needs to be visible.

Are credit sellers are undercutting everyone so their auctions are the cheapest price?

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Sarova]

I'm not seeing much difference other than the options being re-ordered. 

I was hoping for a one-word general search option but it's not possible. For example: typing "ore"  will not allow you to click search; it remains inactive. You must be very specific about what you want to look for.  

[OlBuzzard]

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

I did a search in armor, weapons, dyes, and they all had trash items and player made items listed at 3 billion credits. Not just one or two items but pages of listings. This tactic has been going on for years since inflation made it common for people to carry billions on their characters and thanks to category listings like Name, Level, Time, Seller, Price, Unit Price being buggy it works.

7.4 eliminates this exploit. Players will always buy the lowest priced possible item even though they can see the prices of the following items. This is an improvement over the current GTN system.

 

The new posting fees for the GTN are going to cost more to post, cancel, and repost repeatedly. With the current GTN pricing to post people cancel and repost their auctions multiple times a day undercutting anyone with cheaper prices. I've done it myself when selling resources and the primary reason I can do this is it only costs a few thousand, not tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands but less than 5,000 credits to cancel and repost pages of resources.

7.4 maybe too costly for a lot of players to continue this behavior.

Closer.   This is what I was saying about cleaning up the excessive one liners.  It absolutely clogged up the GTN with a lot of unnecessary posting. This aspect of the GTN is positive if it consolidates all of the same listing for the same person on one line.  BY that I mean:  Say one person has a quantity of 500 of one item and wants to sell them individually at 1,000,000 credits each.  Then there should be a column that indicates the TOTAL number of units available from that person.  (I hope that makes sense).

 I'm not trying to be negative in this particular reply.  I'm just suggesting that cleaning up the GTN entries and making it easier to see multiple listings (and the prices) makes it easier for someone who is purchasing any item to see what is available.

(BTW...  kudos on the screen shots) 

[Balameb]

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

We want your feedback and need your help to improve this feature further.

Hello Joe, is good to finally see how the new GTN is taking shape. I'm a full supporter on the way you interact with this community and love seeing you regularly reading all over the forums. 

You asked for feedback and here will be mine. I'm not playing PTS as i had donde in the past and got burned badly. Not an experience i would like to repeat even if i have more faith in your way of working. I'm however a heavy user of GTN and have (and still do) played other MMOs with markets very similar to this new design(LA, NW and BDO). So my opinion of what 'may or may not happen' or what i consider 'good or bad' is based on actual experience.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

Searching

• Search now returns a list of items with all available items per type collapsed down into a single listing.
• Each of these listings shows the item, the quantity available on the market, and the lowest available price.
• Clicking on the item/credit button will now open a new window showing each available listing of that item.

 

Seems good, similar to BDO.

Question, to you or any kind soul that is on PTS. What happens if there is no item listed currently? Let's imagine a rare limited mat as was the case when 6.X lauched. We know the item exists but is on so high demand while limited supply that was hard to spot. Other games with similar search/list do show the item and you can even see trends in value and volume.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

Buying

• Seller’s names are now obfuscated from the sale. This is largely due to the amount of information in the new listing page.

Unpopular opinion. I'm not against obfuscation, most games do implement it to avoid drama and make RMT more difficult.

I do get why some want it to stay as some arguments in favor of having it look ok like spotting odd behaviors. That could be a tool as long a BW would like to actually act on that. Sadly we all know that rarely happens, and when it does it takes sooo long. The 'Dye Gate' a few years ago, went for weeks with trixxie and a couple more rising alarms and people calling her crazy before it was actually acknowlege as dup exploit. We had constant bot farmers(that we know feed credit sellers) being too obvious on the GTN and no one does ever anything. The only actual consistent use of having the name published is so people could track their GTN nemesis and undercut them after they post. So i would actually ask to go one step further and remove the 'made by' of crafted items, crafting is kind of dumb easy in this game to have any pride on those brands that are even lost once used. That would also allow better stacking: Win-Win.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

Claiming

• Claiming now has its own window within the Galactic Trade Network!
• Mail is only used in cases of alerts about sales or expirations.
• Opening the claim page you will see a list of claimable sales and purchases.
• You have a limit on purchases of 10 Buy Slots. Buy slots can be increased as necessary up to a maximum of 50.
• Sale Slots are the same as our current slots. These can be increased to 100.
• Slots become used when you create a listing or make a purchase.
• Slots become available again after you claim all of the associated credits and items within that slot.
• There is still a 30 day time limit to claim the item, make sure you claim your items!

 

Here i will have the biggest complain and i will try to not be too harsh on you Joe as i do like you, but..... That bolded line means you guys are about to make a cardinal sin in terms of game monetization: Creating a problem in order to sale us a solution.

What makes it even worst is that games usually launch with such things to grab some cash and then then lowering the barriers to keep/attract more players. But you are creating a new problem on a 13year old game were there was none. I know people will say 'just claim every 10 items or less', but right now i have no such inconvenience. Even as an almost retired crafter i can still make 30+ purchases if i find good offers in mats, then a single checkbox in mail allows me to claim everything in one go.

Is not that i'm against charging for features or extras, games do need to earn money; but do it from giving convenience not by making an inconvenience. Example: The new favorites feature; sell me more slots for that as character/account unlocks and i will more than happily spend CCs.

This will be difficult to correct but i do encourage the team to rework it as right now it does hints at 'cash grab before manteinance' as it encourage people to pay to keep what they already have now and not for something new. One way would be to make it 50 slots (at least for subscribers) and then sell a 'Non expiration unlock', like coverting it in a new storage....

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

Selling

• Fees:
  • A buyer’s fee is added to the purchase price. This means the amount you put into the unit price is the amount you will receive.
  • The buyer’s fee is dependent on the unit price and is progressive starting at 6% (lower than current) but scaling up from there. Below is a chart that lays out the rates:

Like most opinions i read on the subject. i'm not keen on the shift from seller to buyers. It just feels off.

But kudos on the progressive tax. It is nice to see someone understanding how to calculate each bracket/marginal. I wish polititians (and HR personel) in my country knew how that works, it is sad how some people here prefer not working overtime because they would actually loose money by going over the next bracket because of bad design in our progressive taxes.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

Deposits have been adjusted to be fees. This is to encourage folks to list their items at prices that are more likely to move. Below is a chart that shows the minimum and maximum fee depending on the Buyout Price and the Duration.

I hate undercut wars as much as any decent crafter, but this do not feel correct and i don't think will work as intended.

Why not just increase the deposits so is expensive to cancel? As pointed by others that could help discourage cancels while not making it unfriendly for selling in general.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

New Features:

• Favorites
  • Favorites is a Subscriber feature.
  • You can now mark an item as a Favorite! Click the `star` to set this.
  • There is a limit of 5 Favorites.
  • Clicking on the Quick Search button for Favorites will quickly show only these items you’ve selected.
• Newly Listed
  • You can see up to 30 of the most recently listed items with this search. It’s not real time, but should update when you perform the search.
• Popular
  • This is based on recent sales volume.
  • Up to 30 of the most purchased items.
• Cartel Rarity Filter
  • You can now filter based on the Cartel Rarity of an item:
    • Bronze
    • Silver
    • Gold
    • Platinum
  • Having this set will filter out any non-Cartel items and show only items of the selected Rarity.
• Market Data
  • We have some more information coming to the purchase page that shows the current median value and its recent high/low values as well as a more historical version of that value.
  • Recent looks at a smaller subset of time to give you an idea of the trend.
  • Historical is a larger time frame but is not lifetime.
  • We plan on expanding on this section in the future, details to come when we have them.

Oh Yeah!!!!

'Favorites' is my favorite (pun intended) thing about new GTN.

In general all nice things here, i would say that Market data should also be visible in Sell page, not just Purchase.

On 10/27/2023 at 1:52 PM, JoeStramaglia said:

Some general questions to answer in your feedback:

• Is there any functionality of the existing system that you don’t see in the new system that you would prefer we preserve?
• What do you like about the new system? What do you dislike?
• Are there any specific filters, searches, or ways of finding items that you wish existed?
• Do you have any concerns with how the new system feels to use?

I think that for the most part the feedback already reflect those questions. And before i go to the next issue i will reitarate that i do my feedback, even the nicest parts. But i do have one MAJOR concern about this improved GTN:

Why now? What would i use it for?

The need GTN feels like it missing something. There is absolutely ZERO new things to trade besides the couple CM items released every several months. Not even new crafted dyes, much less new gear. Without a crafting overhaul (or at least grade 12) the needs for GTN are less and less. I have stocked a few billions, packs, hypercrates, cosmetics and an insane amount of mats. And that is from ocassional play, i have skipped 6.X for the most part.

As much as i like the new GTN as a concept, i feel it will hurt more than help if there is nothing to go along with it.

Every time the max item rating is increased and crafting is left with nothing is a huge missed opportunity.

My suggestion from the bottom of my heart, even if 99% players will hate me, is: make 7.4 a small story update only and leave gear and new GTN for a few months after. Change the new gear to require crafting in some degree and then release both. Of course would be nice if you can make all that by 7.4, but we know that is unlikely as Crafting topic has been avoided like plague more that 16m and MM Operations.

If BS don't really plan on giving more use/need for GTN, then i will have to go with the crowd and say: Why bother changing it then?

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Balameb

[Darkestmonty]

On 10/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, Balameb said:

Here i will have the biggest complain and i will try to not be too harsh on you Joe as i do like you, but..... That bolded line means you guys are about to make a cardinal sin in terms of game monetization: Creating a problem in order to sale us a solution.

This is an obvious cash grab and a poorly thought out one.

Devs want to create a better cash grab? Put work into the game and create new features players want, don't add blocks to a newly designed system just to sell unlocks to something we already had (unlimited buying).

Creating a BUY limit just to sell us the ability to expand is crap move.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[OlBuzzard]

16 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

This is an obvious cash grab and a poorly thought out one.

Devs want to create a better cash grab? Put work into the game and create new features players want, don't add blocks to a newly designed system just to sell unlocks.

Creating a claim limit just to sell us the ability to expand is crap move.

out of reaction thingies again .. I owe ya one!

[/unworthy emote]

[TrixxieTriss]

7 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

7.4 maybe too costly for a lot of players to continue this behavior

And too much for many to continue listing at all. Which will mean less stock on the GTN. Then demand will outstrip supply & put upward pressure on prices. 
 

The best solution to people having undercutting wars by listing & cancelling to be the cheapest, is not turning the deposit system into a fee system & making it non refundable. It’s applying these same proposed fee amounts to the current deposit system that is still refundable if an item doesn’t sell. But is non-refundable if an item is cancelled. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

Closer.   This is what I was saying about cleaning up the excessive one liners.  It absolutely clogged up the GTN with a lot of unnecessary posting. This aspect of the GTN is positive if it consolidates all of the same listing for the same person on one line.  BY that I mean:  Say one person has a quantity of 500 of one item and wants to sell them individually at 1,000,000 credits each.  Then there should be a column that indicates the TOTAL number of units available from that person.  (I hope that makes sense).

 I'm not trying to be negative in this particular reply.  I'm just suggesting that cleaning up the GTN entries and making it easier to see multiple listings (and the prices) makes it easier for someone who is purchasing any item to see what is available.

(BTW...  kudos on the screen shots) 

This part I agree with. Especially if someone lists 20 dyes of the same colour. If the GTN then shows them collectively, then that makes it much easier to browse. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darkestmonty]

35 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

And too much for many to continue listing at all. Which will mean less stock on the GTN. Then demand will outstrip supply & put upward pressure on prices. 

if a player can't afford the non-refundable 100 credit posting fee, the 7.4 system will be cost prohibitive.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[ElariaSing]

I can't even use the PTS GTN "Unquality of Life Economy Not-Fixes" because my inventory keeps rearranging itself automatically... hence the following:::

This "New" feature of automatically sorting inventory every time on open/close is another example of useless "QOL" additions that no one asked for. Devs with too much time on their hands trying to come up with crafty ways to screw things up while not actually addressing issues or fixing problems is exactly what this game does not need.

DEVS:: YOU ARE LITERALLY ADDING FEATURES AND FEES/TAXES THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS GAME UNPLAYABLE AND NO AMOUNT OF "NEW" CONTENT OR STORY IS GOING TO OVERRIDE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE DESTROYING THE GAME SO MANY PEOPLE LOVE > WE WANT A GAME WE CAN PLAY AND ENJOY NOT ENDLESS GRINDS TO GIVE YOU OUR TIME FOR USELESS AND PETTY "REWARDS" AND TO HAVE YOU SLOW THE GAME, PUNISH/PENALIZE PLAYERS, PREVENT F2P/PREF PLAYERS FROM PARTICIPATING, AND BASICALLY MAKING A BEAUTIFUL GAME DYSFUNCTIONAL WITH TIME, CREDIT AND IRL DOLLAR SINKS. < PLEASE JUST STICK TO MAKING GREAT CONTENT AND NOT DISRESPECTING YOUR PLAYER BASE...

 

SO:: Here is the fix.. Dev's Please Pay attention to this simple fix... make a toggle switch(check box) to disable Automatically Sorting of Any Inventory - Personal, Cargo, Legacy, or Guild Banks...

Simple fix.. then you can add as many new useless features as you want and we have a choice to let them ruin our game play...

I will post a detailed opinion on the specifics of the GTN 7.4 but already besides the inventory debacle I can see that you can not even SHFT Click an item in your inventory to search for it specifically ... so this GTN "update" seems like a very bad Idea Poorly Implemented to destroy the economy all together to force people to just use Cartel Coins for real $$ instead of an in game trade system that everyone enjoys and can use....

To Be Continued...

 

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

if a player can't afford the non-refundable 100 credit posting fee, the 7.4 system will be cost prohibitive.

But we aren’t talking about 100 credits we are talking about 10,000-250,000 credits.

We don’t need the current refundable deposit system to become a non refundable system to achieve said goals.

All they need to do is apply their suggested credit amounts to the current  deposit system on live. Because if people cancel a current listing on live, the deposit becomes unrefundable already. But if something doesn’t sell, the deposit will be refunded. 

I don’t know how many ways people need to explain this too you so that you might understand that the version on the PTS is going to cause harm to the market.

And the simplest & most elegant solution to resolve all the issues you’ve brought up (that won’t harm the market) is to just apply their suggested credit amounts for fees to the current deposit system. 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darkestmonty]

40 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But we aren’t talking about 100 credits we are talking about 10,000-250,000 credits.

We don’t need the current refundable deposit system to become a non refundable system to achieve said goals.

All they need to do is apply their suggested credit amounts to the current  deposit system on live. Because if people cancel a current listing on live, the deposit becomes unrefundable already. But if something doesn’t sell, the deposit will be refunded. 

I don’t know how many ways people need to explain this too you so that you might understand that the version on the PTS is going to cause harm to the market.

And the simplest & most elegant solution to resolve all the issues you’ve brought up (that won’t harm the market) is to just apply their suggested credit amounts for fees to the current deposit system. 

 

we are talking about 100 credits because that is the minimum amount to post an item for 12 hours. Sellers also don't pay the 8% GTN tax in 7.4 but you keep failing to mention that while trying to panic people over the non-refundable posting fees.

In 7.4 sellers can pay a non-refundable posting fee of 10,000 to 250,000 credits to start a 3,000,000,000 credit auction while paying no GTN tax when it sells. In the current system, sellers pay a refundable posting fee 250 credits and get taxed 240,000,000 credits on that same 3,000,000,000 credit sale.

Lose a possible 10,000 to 250,000 credits or lose 240,000,000 credits. I'm going to go with losing a possible 10,000 to 250,000 credits over losing 240,000,000 credits.

Why should sellers panic over spending 10,000 to 250,000 credits when they no longer have to pay the 8% GTN tax?

Non-refundable listing fees are much better than the current 8% GTN taxes we currently play. If a seller can not afford to gamble with 10,000 credits to sell a 3 billion credit item, the seller may need to arrange the sale in /trade first then post it on the GTN or if they are 80 do a single heroic which awards around 28,000 credits and can be done in less than 2 minutes.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

17 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

we are talking about 100 credits to post since that is the minimum amount to post an item for 12 hours. Sellers also don't pay the 8% GTN tax in 7.4 but you keep failing to mention that.

In 7.4 sellers can pay a non-refundable posting fee of 10,000 to 250,000 credits to start a 3 billion credit auction while paying no GTN tax. Or, using the current system,  pay a refundable posting fee 250 credits and get taxed 240,000,000 credits.

Lose a possible 10,000 to 250,000 credits or lose 240,000,000 credits.

Why should sellers panic over spending 10,000 to 250,000 credits while having a net gain of almost 240,000,000 because they no longer have to pay taxes in 7.4.

It’s pointless talking to you. Back on ignore.

[Swuuutor]

Everybody is talking about the fees and prices, but what do u guys think about the fact that they limit the favorites section to 5 pieces. I think, it is a great feature, but it shouldn't be limited.

This should get more attention imo.

[Balameb]

9 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

we are talking about 100 credits because that is the minimum amount to post an item for 12 hours. Sellers also don't pay the 8% GTN tax in 7.4 but you keep failing to mention that while trying to panic people over the non-refundable posting fees.

In 7.4 sellers can pay a non-refundable posting fee of 10,000 to 250,000 credits to start a 3,000,000,000 credit auction while paying no GTN tax when it sells. In the current system, sellers pay a refundable posting fee 250 credits and get taxed 240,000,000 credits on that same 3,000,000,000 credit sale.

Lose a possible 10,000 to 250,000 credits or lose 240,000,000 credits. I'm going to go with losing a possible 10,000 to 250,000 credits over losing 240,000,000 credits.

Why should sellers panic over spending 10,000 to 250,000 credits when they no longer have to pay the 8% GTN tax?

Non-refundable listing fees are much better than the current 8% GTN taxes we currently play. If a seller can not afford to gamble with 10,000 credits to sell a 3 billion credit item, the seller may need to arrange the sale in /trade first then post it on the GTN or if they are 80 do a single heroic which awards around 28,000 credits and can be done in less than 2 minutes.

1- You are going to max sale value vs max fee that is achieved way sooner, like 30 times earlier.

2- Who pays the tax is semantics. It does matter because it changes perspective and complicates things, but it does not take a cost out, it just changes when it is calculated. And considering the progressive tax, we can clearly see the cost of the TRANSACTION will actually be higher in average.

3- With current setup on live, paying 8% tax does not mean you loose 8% because you actually sold an item and earned 92% of what buyer was charged.

4- The problem is not 'not being able to sell ONE item ONE time', the problem is 'not being able to sell SEVERAL items, SEVERAL times'. This thread already has the clear examples that 100% relate to how swtor market works:

A- Dyes: The nature of this market shows spikes here and there and crafters post in BULK. You may sell a lot and need to repost 3 times a day the same color or you may end not selling your batch for several repost stright because there was less demand or because you were undercut.

B- Decos, mounts, pets: There are of different kind, but i will say there are two very large groups: the desired ones but expensive/temporal saturation, and the low quality repeats that no one really want and is constantly saturated. The first one with patience can give profit but it will still be annoying to keep paying and loosing at 250k at a time per piece. Now the second group is the biggest problem as It can take weeks or months to sale all the extra bits you get from a single hypercrate and is likely you will still have a lot extra junk after one month. Cannot gift to newbies because of trade fees, your GM does not want your junk in the guild storage, you don't that junk in your storage and now you cannot even cycle it on GTN until someone buys it because that and burning credits would be practically the same thing.

*removed, bad math*

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Balameb

[Darkestmonty]

3 hours ago, Swuuutor said:

Everybody is talking about the fees and prices, but what do u guys think about the fact that they limit the favorites section to 5 pieces. I think, it is a great feature, but it shouldn't be limited.

This should get more attention imo.

I'm fine with limited favorites. It's not a feature we had before and not something most players will need a lot of. Favorites is the perfect feature to sell additional unlocks for on the Cartel Market.

Limiting players to 10 purchases, something which we had no limits on before, just to sell us back our purchasing power is a crap move.

1 hour ago, Balameb said:

1- You are going to max sale value vs max fee that is achieved way sooner, like 30 times earlier.

2- Who pays the tax is semantics. It does matter because it changes perspective and complicates things, but it does not take a cost out, it just changes when it is calculated. And considering the progressive tax, we can clearly see the cost of the TRANSACTION will actually be higher in average.

3- With current setup on live, paying 8% tax does not mean you loose 8% because you actually sold an item and earned 92% of what buyer was charged.

4- The problem is not 'not being able to sell ONE item ONE time', the problem is 'not being able to sell SEVERAL items, SEVERAL times'. This thread already has the clear examples that 100% relate to how swtor market works:

A- Dyes: The nature of this market shows spikes here and there and crafters post in BULK. You may sell a lot and need to repost 3 times a day the same color or you may end not selling your batch for several repost stright because there was less demand or because you were undercut.

B- Decos, mounts, pets: There are of different kind, but i will say there are two very large groups: the desired ones but expensive/temporal saturation, and the low quality repeats that no one really want and is constantly saturated. The first one with patience can give profit but it will still be annoying to keep paying and loosing at 250k at a time per piece. Now the second group is the biggest problem as It can take weeks or months to sale all the extra bits you get from a single hypercrate and is likely you will still have a lot extra junk after one month. Cannot gift to newbies because of trade fees, your GM does not want your junk in the guild storage, you don't that junk in your storage and now you cannot even cycle it on GTN until someone buys it because that and burning credits would be practically the same thing.

In both examples we are talking about potentially loosing millions per week, not a few k for a single item.

A lot of people have the misconception is that items have a fixed value. That certain items like a player crafted "Light Grey and White dye module" can only be sold for a total of 350,000 credits on Star Forge.

The reality is that no items have a fixed value and price is only determined by inflation along with supply and demand. Prices can fluctuate drastically in a day because of supply and demand.

How does what I just stated effect your following points 1, 2, and 3?

Since items do not have a fixed price all three of these points are meaningless. Most buyers are not going to refuse to buy a dye sold last week for 350,000 credits because this week it is 371,000 credits. If buyers want the dye, most won't care about the additional 21,000 credits. That type of fluctuation happens all the time now and players still buy and sell. Why would it matter in 7.4?

Your point 4 I don't understand. You can still flood the market in 7.4 with 30 of the same dye blocking out other players who posted before you from ever selling. The consequence of doing that is that each time you post, there is a non-refundable posting fee. And every single person you blocked from making a sale by flooding the market undercutting them... they can do the same, only it will cost them the posting fee of 1-2 dyes versus the 30 you posted trying to be the only one making sales.

In 7.4 there will be consequences to flooding markets trying to block other players from making sales. Not harsh enough consequences to fully stop this behavior, but enough to make some players think a bit more.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Ahwassa]

I like that you can post now for 7 days - very nice QoL change

The rest of the changes seem great and modern - keep up the good work.

[Balameb]

Question:

Probably missed someone already posting about it. How does the sell fees work with stacked items like augment kits and crafting mats? Is it once per stack or one per item?

 

[Darkestmonty]

40 minutes ago, Balameb said:

Question:

Probably missed someone already posting about it. How does the sell fees work with stacked items like augment kits and crafting mats? Is it once per stack or one per item?

 

listing fee is based on total price for the single posting be it a stack or single item. Buyers tax is based on the total amount purchased.