Planned Class Changes for 7.3

[eabevella]

6 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

Why would you ever take Ruthless Efficiency in pve? I take the movespeed boost over a damage increase on an ability I basically never use anytime.

That said, the push doesn't bother me in the slightest. If an enemy can be pushed, it probably doesn't matter if they get pushed. 

Ruthless Efficiency is, well, efficient when you need to burn adds down fast.

You also don't want to knock an add out of people's AOE or when they need to be positioned.

That's why I use PvE (raids) because you're right, it doesn't really matter in solo PvE contents. I find Cover Pulse more than handy.

Move speed boost isn't really important for me because big area damage in raids that need the player to move such as the Izax map-wide bombs and Kanoth ghosts all have enough reaction time with practice. Plus the roll should be enough if you are 1 sec away from the safe spot.

This is why the original perks are better: sniper in PvP need speed + knock back so Reestablishment is great. While speed boost can be nice, but Ruthless Efficiency makes Supressive fire pretty op and helpful in PvE, which makes it a better option when knockback will be an issue. Essentially it's 1 must have for PvPer and 2 for PvEer to pick from.

But what BW wants to do is to seperate the 2 PvP buffs, force 1 to everyone and the other 1 to a PvE perk, essentially cripple the perk for both PvP and PvE players. That's bad.

By the way, I'm not sure I want speed boost with my DcD/threat drop but *sigh*

[steveerkcanjerk]

4 hours ago, eabevella said:

Ruthless Efficiency is, well, efficient when you need to burn adds down fast.

You also don't want to knock an add out of people's AOE or when they need to be positioned.

That's why I use PvE (raids) because you're right, it doesn't really matter in solo PvE contents. I find Cover Pulse more than handy.

Move speed boost isn't really important for me because big area damage in raids that need the player to move such as the Izax map-wide bombs and Kanoth ghosts all have enough reaction time with practice. Plus the roll should be enough if you are 1 sec away from the safe spot.

This is why the original perks are better: sniper in PvP need speed + knock back so Reestablishment is great. While speed boost can be nice, but Ruthless Efficiency makes Supressive fire pretty op and helpful in PvE, which makes it a better option when knockback will be an issue. Essentially it's 1 must have for PvPer and 2 for PvEer to pick from.

But what BW wants to do is to seperate the 2 PvP buffs, force 1 to everyone and the other 1 to a PvE perk, essentially cripple the perk for both PvP and PvE players. That's bad.

By the way, I'm not sure I want speed boost with my DcD/threat drop but *sigh*

Its almost like its not the defacto pve choice. Having movement speed was really nice to avoid mechanics, reposition etc. But to say its the defacto pve choice is not accurate as another poster has said. If you like to take it in PvE thats awesome and nothing wrong with that. But to say its "the pve choice" is not true. There are many fights where movement speed is clutch and you have to move alot. Great you time the mechanic perfectly or i can just be faster and get another shot in etc. Or i am playing engineering and i already have enough aoe cleave. If adds are a huge issue on a pull there are plenty of ability mods on the tree i can swap to for that pull but i am having to move alot more then cleaving adds down tbh. But thats the magic of tree right. But its not a auto pve pick for many people. 

[steveerkcanjerk]

11 hours ago, meddani said:

lightning sucks right now....what's with all these tiny buffs? are you scared lightning could be decent again like during the 6.X era? reminds me of concealment nerf back at launch and after that conc didn't get a buff until 2.6....

halted offensive got a buff, stormwatch has 100% up time now, and now they got another buff to lightning flash. I would say they gotta a pretty solid buff. 

[eabevella]

17 minutes ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

Its almost like its not the defacto pve choice. Having movement speed was really nice to avoid mechanics, reposition etc. But to say its the defacto pve choice is not accurate as another poster has said. If you like to take it in PvE thats awesome and nothing wrong with that. But to say its "the pve choice" is not true. There are many fights where movement speed is clutch and you have to move alot. Great you time the mechanic perfectly or i can just be faster and get another shot in etc. Or i am playing engineering and i already have enough aoe cleave. If adds are a huge issue on a pull there are plenty of ability mods on the tree i can swap to for that pull but i am having to move alot more then cleaving adds down tbh. But thats the magic of tree right. But its not a auto pve pick for many people. 

But we can all agree that Reestablish Range IS the PvP option.

I mean, at least we can argue which one is the better "PvE" buff but the PvP players can't. They won't even have 1 good option if this "balance" is set in 7.3.

[AdjeYo]

8 hours ago, eabevella said:

Ruthless Efficiency is, well, efficient when you need to burn adds down fast.

You also don't want to knock an add out of people's AOE or when they need to be positioned.

That's why I use PvE (raids) because you're right, it doesn't really matter in solo PvE contents. I find Cover Pulse more than handy.

Move speed boost isn't really important for me because big area damage in raids that need the player to move such as the Izax map-wide bombs and Kanoth ghosts all have enough reaction time with practice. Plus the roll should be enough if you are 1 sec away from the safe spot.

This is why the original perks are better: sniper in PvP need speed + knock back so Reestablishment is great. While speed boost can be nice, but Ruthless Efficiency makes Supressive fire pretty op and helpful in PvE, which makes it a better option when knockback will be an issue. Essentially it's 1 must have for PvPer and 2 for PvEer to pick from.

But what BW wants to do is to seperate the 2 PvP buffs, force 1 to everyone and the other 1 to a PvE perk, essentially cripple the perk for both PvP and PvE players. That's bad.

By the way, I'm not sure I want speed boost with my DcD/threat drop but *sigh*

Reestablish Range is the everything option. If you're using Suppresive Fire for AoE you're probably doing something wrong. Bring Engineering or Virulence, or rely on your teammates to bring a class with some cleave. You're almost always better off using single target damage and letting cleave deal with adds. Adding a 25% damage increase on an ability you should never use to cripple your movement is a bad idea on every operation ever made. In solo content I might consider it to do some AoE, in raids never.

That said, I'm fine with keeping the knockback where it is, it has never in all my years playing been an issue in any raid. It requires me to be within 10m of something that can even be knocked at all, and other players are AoE damaging or otherwise should be moved that I want to use SoS or PB on for some reason. I can't think of a single example of where that might happen.

Essentially for PvE this change changes basically nothing. For PvP it's a straight nerf since you'll have to choose between your movespeed and your knockback. So it doesn't make much sense with the reason they're giving. They're "fixing" a non-issue in PvE to nerf Sniper in PvP. It'd make more sense if they were trying to nerf sniper in PvP.

Also, I like the movespeed on the Threat Drop just fine, I'd just love for the defensive benefit to get moved out of there with Evasion again.

Edited May 5, 2023 by AdjeYo

[supertimtaf]

Some interesting bits here and there to note. Let's get over them and give some feedback :

PT Changes :
- I overall like some of the propositions. The removal of ccs on Neural Trigger was long overdue and it's nice to finally see it here.
- The new "stealth scan" is... Interesting, but I have yet to see if it is not overly targetted against a single playstyle. You also didn't mention the duration of the accuracy debuff, which could be very, very strong if it lasts for 20sec straight. I'm afraid that you're maybe putting *too much* value into this ability while maybe designing another passive altogether could be more interesting on the long term.
- Thank you for the changes to ability learning curve. In the hopes that it improves the new player experience

 

AP Changes :

- More heat/energy management is gud, but isn't it *still* a bit too low ? Is the goal of this change to make AP "energy neutral" or "slightly less energy consuming" while being played optimally ?
- The new tactical seems... Really strong for PvP. Maybe *too much* especially now that everyone will let go of Neural Trigger. "Stacks up to 4 times" seems excessive. Really, really excessive when you look at what a good AP can already do in terms of Burst Damage. Please watch closely the impact of this on PTS for PvP.

Mercenary Changes :

- Thanks again for smoothing out the leveling experience.

- Again for the stealth scan, maybe try to not put "too much" value into this ability and instead design a new passive ? It seems slightly less strong than Powertech's version, so it seems more "balanced" at least. 

- The new Legendary seems better than Random Charge. Why not. I have yet to see its impact on actual gameplay.

 

Arsenal Changes :

- Overall some slight buffs, though again, if you intend to buff it more, please nerf some of its defensive options first. As some have already stated, the level of most Arsenal (or just Merc players) in general is abyssimal, due to them relying too much on the defensive and not enough on the need to improve. I would be curious to get some overall data about winrates depending on class and specs, to help justify X or Y changes. 

Bodyguard Changes :

- ...Ok ? Sure, why not I don't mind it to be honest. More fluff and lore in the name of spells is nice.

 

Sniper Changes :

- The Knockback effect being moved onto Suppressive Fire feels really weird. You're putting PvP players in a weird spot where they lose a defensive ability, because no one is going to bother casting a whole suppressive fire. Definitely try to move it somewhere else, please. Unless you mean that the knockback is still on the same abilities ? Meaning that Ruthless Efficiency now also makes SoS/PB do a knocback ? Your wording is a tad bit confusing here @Shabir_Dhillon !
- I do welcome the return of Vital Regulators, they were indeed missed.

Marksman Changes :

- Nice, a small window of effect is always best for these kind of abilities ! 

Virulence Changes :

- Yay, more energy ! Wouldn't that be slightly overkill though with Cull proccing the DoT effects ? Just wondering.

 

Medicine Changes :

- Yes please ! Interrupt Immunity is what the spec lacks in PvP. 

Lethality Changes :

- I have no idea how good or bad Lethality is atm, so I can't give you any insight.  

Concealment Changes :

- How big is the improvement ? I'm betting that this has to do with the mod not being used at all, so I take it that the healing was probably doubled ?

 

Hatred Changes : 

- I take it that this was probably targeted at PvE, which is fair in all honesty. I have no issues with it, except maybe once I see the potential impact this has on PvP.

Deception Changes :

- Increasing the execute damage of the class is smart, but I think that you could revert some more nerfs from the 5.X period without making too much of an impact. Unless you think that Decep is good where it is, which is the case at least for PvP.

 

Madness Changes :

- Thank you for the slow nerf, lifesteal nerf and bugfix. Still, I believe that the "Plague Master" mod still converts the remaining DoT damage into another damage type. Pretty sure you should look at that, unless it's made specifically like that for a reason.

Lightning Changes :

- I see no reasons to complain about these, as long as there isn't more slow and roots involved. Unsure if it'll make lightning good or unfun to play against. Will see once the changes are live.

 

Annihilation Changes :

- Yay, more consistent rage generation ! I see this as an absolute win, as it smoothes out the rotation across every level range.

Edited May 5, 2023 by supertimtaf
Improved readability

[StrikePrice]

On 5/3/2023 at 12:48 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Hey everyone, after looking through the feedback I wanted to update everyone on the following changes and clarify some details on a couple of the changes. I will also update the original post as well with the new changes. 

So first up we have some additional changes we want to roll out to the coming PTS when it opens at a later time: 

Mercenary/Commando: 

• Hunter Killer Droid/Advanced Recon Droid - Fires off probes that scan the area for stealth opponents for 15 seconds and grants Droid Overwatch which increases your damage reduction while stunned by 30%.  Revealed targets are immobilized and all enemies within the field are slowed by 30%.
• Stealth Scan has its cooldown increased to 20 seconds up from 15.
  • This is the full tooltip for the Stealth Scan change for Mercenary/Commandos, hopefully this clears up any confusion anyone has on the effects of the ability. 

Arsenal/Gunnery:

• Increase the damage for Blazing Bolts/Boltstorm by 2.3%. 

Sniper/Gunslinger: 

• Vital Regulators will have its healing increased to 3% of your maximum HP every 2 seconds while in cover. 
• The knockback effect that used to be Reestablished Range will be placed on Ruthless Efficiency. 
  • Our intent for the change to the knockback was primarily done so that players in PVE would not accidentally move mobs out of the group's range or into dangerous spots that could potentially kill the group. 
  • We shifted this effect to the utility Ruthless Efficiency, so that players can opt into the previous playstyle with the knockback, the heal while in cover, or Damage Reduction. 

Powertech/Vanguard:

• Terminator Droid/Suppression Droid - Fires off a Terminator Droid to scan the area for 15 seconds, revealing stealthed opponents and immobilizing them for 3 seconds. In addition, all enemies inside the field of the Terminator Droid have their accuracy reduced by 20% and are slowed by 30%.
• Stealth Scan has its cooldown increased to 20 seconds up from 15.
  • This is the full tooltip for the Stealth Scan change for Powertechs/Vanguards, hopefully this clears up any confusion anyone has on the effects of the ability. 

Sorcerer/Sage: 

• Lighting/Telekinetics: 
  • Lightning Flash/Telekinetic Gust’s damage is increased by 5%. 

Madness/Balance: 

• Death Brand/Shifted Balance’s Slow Effect should no longer reapply to players that have been defeated and respawn. 

Following those changes, I wanted to clarify some changes for the Mercenary/Commandos new legendary item Overcharged Cells. The first thing I wanted to cover was that the Thermal Detonator applies the 3 charges of Supercharge when it deals direct damage. Also the rate limit will adjust to the abilities cooldown for Priming Shot and Thermal Detonator.  

The next question I wanted to address in relation to the Mercenary/Commando is their new version of Stealth Scan “Hunter Killer Droid.” The damage reduction while stunned is designed to have a lengthy uptime for the following reasons: 

• The other options it is competing with are all also strong. 
• We wanted this mod to be a anti-stealth choice for players and provide some additional benefits beyond revealing a stealth player and a slow that does not apply any hindrance to the target. 
• The immobilization effect only occurs if the Mercenary/Commando reveals the target. 

This change is also targeted at making Stealth Scan less of a niche option and have more application in more scenarios in PVP.

Similarly the Powertech/Vanguards effects are also being applied with the same goal of making Stealth Scan less niche and provide more benefits in a wider variety of scenarios. Powertech/Vanguards lean more toward a support buff with the reduced accuracy because of their class identity as a tank. In addition, “Terminator Droid” is competing with fairly strong defensive and offensive choices across the skill trees for the Powertech/Vanguard. The accuracy reduction will not apply to Operation Bosses. 

We appreciate all the feedback everyone has taken the time to give and look forward to seeing the various changes being tested on pts. 
 

Don't add another AOE slow and reduce accuracy. This is the opposite way you should go. Have it reduce armor from everyone in the affected area by 25%. Make TTK lower, not higher. Change like this make so a node will never be capped. 

[sithBracer]

17 hours ago, meddani said:

lightning sucks right now....what's with all these tiny buffs? are you scared lightning could be decent again like during the 6.X era? reminds me of concealment nerf back at launch and after that conc didn't get a buff until 2.6....

omg its been like 9 years already, get over it. Concealment has been amazing in PvE and PvP since 3.0 and was OP in PvP all throughout 6.X. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by sithBracer

[Drokisannath]

Quote

3% Heal every 2 secs is kind of pitiful, I'd change it to around 3-5% heal every second in cover.  Again I'd also add back the Roll heal into this passive. Sniper/Slingers cannot withstand some of the insane burst in the game right now, PT's/VG's melt this class, and Deception/Infiltration can chew you over. 

3% heal every 2 seconds is about 6100+ HPS, its actually quite crazy in both pve and pvp, what you propose with the 5% health per second would translate to 20.500 HPS, that would mean that a guarded sniper is literrally impossible to kill and would finish with higher HPS than healers. It would legit make sniper the best class to stack in any content. And you want the roll heal on top of that ? I don't mean to be rude but this would be the most stupid change since the addition of cut to pieces in the game.

However, I'd argue that I'd rather have a lower amount of heal while cover if it meant we can have access to roll heal as a deliberate mean to heal self. Having 100% of survivability baked into staying immobile is not great.

On the topic of feedback, Sniper have been asking for their cover barswap since release of 7.0 at least as an option, why is it not here still ?


 

[sithBracer]

2 hours ago, Drokisannath said:

3% heal every 2 seconds is about 6100+ HPS, its actually quite crazy in both pve and pvp, what you propose with the 5% health per second would translate to 20.500 HPS, that would mean that a guarded sniper is literrally impossible to kill and would finish with higher HPS than healers. It would legit make sniper the best class to stack in any content. And you want the roll heal on top of that ? I don't mean to be rude but this would be the most stupid change since the addition of cut to pieces in the game.

However, I'd argue that I'd rather have a lower amount of heal while cover if it meant we can have access to roll heal as a deliberate mean to heal self. Having 100% of survivability baked into staying immobile is not great.

On the topic of feedback, Sniper have been asking for their cover barswap since release of 7.0 at least as an option, why is it not here still ?


 

I agree with you, snipers are whining too much and just want to be ridiculously OP at this point. They are getting 12k heals every 2s for doing nothing more than sitting, I think that is pretty good and better than hatred which doesn't even get half that while it is supposed to be a leeching spec with no defenses.

This all started when people were complaining about snipers specifically in Solo ranked, because they honestly had trouble with survivability there. Then the average person who never stepped into solo ranked, just jumped on the bandwagon and never stopped. Solo ranked is gone, and snipers are amazing in warzones; well except marksman, but their problems are damage not heals.

Edited May 5, 2023 by sithBracer

[Zunayson]

People are acting like snipers are losing the movement speed boost on countermeasures. If you go back to read the original post that has been edited, it is very clear that ALL snipers get the movement speed on countermeasures. This means that your current playstyle, using the movement speed boost and the knockback, is still possible. The changes as suggested now are a strict upgrade. Snipers will even get 25% suppressive fire buff, admittedly kind of useless.

I suppose if you want the knockback AND the self-heal then that's not possible, presumably because the ability tree choice would be a no-brainer.

I agree having the knockback on the suppressive fire talent is kind of silly, it's not very thematic. It would be more thematic for the knockback to be on pillbox sniper, but then you'd have to choose between ballistic dampeners. I think it's reasonable to have to make hard choices, that is after all what the ability tree is for.

3% every 2 seconds seems very reasonable. Another person suggested 3%-5% every second, which at a 400k health pool is 12KHPS-20KHPS. I think the key here is that poster suggested every second which is ridiculous. 

[LukasLukasLukas]

17 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

PT's/VG's melt this class, and Deception/Infiltration can chew you over. 

Oh which reminds me @Shabir_Dhillon any news on fixing d/r on evasion which is not working?

[meddani]

7 hours ago, sithBracer said:

omg its been like 9 years already, get over it. Concealment has been amazing in PvE and PvP since 3.0 and was OP in PvP all throughout 6.X. 

?? way to miss the point, genius.

Edited May 5, 2023 by meddani

[SentinalMasterWW]

5 hours ago, sithBracer said:

I agree with you, snipers are whining too much and just want to be ridiculously OP at this point. They are getting 12k heals every 2s for doing nothing more than sitting, I think that is pretty good and better than hatred which doesn't even get half that while it is supposed to be a leeching spec with no defenses.

I think snipers are asking to just not die in 5 Secs. You want OP? Play VG/PT and melt a class in an arena in 10 Secs, Play Deception and CC the other team constantly. Play Madness and have the DPS of a DPS while being able to have the healing of a dedicated healer spec. In the current state, Snipes cannot "sit" for long they constantly have to readjust and reposition to not die. 

9 hours ago, supertimtaf said:

Arsenal Changes :

- Overall some slight buffs, though again, if you intend to buff it more, please nerf some of its defensive options first. As some have already stated, the level of most Arsenal (or just Merc players) in general is abyssimal, due to them relying too much on the defensive and not enough on the need to improve. I would be curious to get some overall data about winrates depending on class and specs, to help justify X or Y changes. 

Arsenal needs them though, the Only Reason Arsenal/Gunnery are playable in its current PVP state which I'd say is around Average Tier. Is their defensives, Echoing Deterrence, Shield heal, and Adrenaline rush are key, because most often than not they get focused heavily, the current trade off right now for this spec is that it has no mobility. 

I alternate between a main Gunnery commando and playing Assault Specialist and a Smart Gunnery player can do a lot in Arena's/WZ's, same goes for AS. AS especially requires a bit of skill with not botching your energy cells and following a certain rotation to do so. 

TBH though, their defensives are pretty easily countered. ED should be hit with AOE attacks or don't hit into them at all, Shield heal only heals them when it expires and when you hit into them and adrenaline rush is kind of a one time thing (It has a pretty long cooldown). 

 

7 hours ago, sithBracer said:

omg its been like 9 years already, get over it. Concealment has been amazing in PvE and PvP since 3.0 and was OP in PvP all throughout 6.X. 

Concealment is terrible right now, Since the nerf it got hit with a while back, its outclassed by lethality. Lethality does everything Concealment does and better. 

[sithBracer]

1 hour ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Play Deception and CC the other team constantly. 

Do you even know the difference between a mezz and a stun? Do you know what resolve is? If you think Low slash is OP and can somehow keep an entire team CCed for the entire game, the problem is and always was you. Just because something annoys you doesn't mean it is OP. Deception assassins are annoyed when they are rooted, knocked back, stunned during opener, netted, slowed. It doesn't mean any of these things are OP. I said this to you many times, and I'll say it again as nicely as I can, you do not understand even the PvP basics of most classes. I strongly recommend you practice playing classes/specs like deception, PT, sorc and learn how to counter them.

 

1 hour ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Arsenal needs them though, the Only Reason Arsenal/Gunnery are playable in its current PVP state which I'd say is around Average Tier. Is their defensives, Echoing Deterrence, Shield heal, and Adrenaline rush are key, because most often than not they get focused heavily, the current trade off right now for this spec is that it has no mobility. 

Mercs never needed it for anything other than solo ranked-which is gone now. I hated playing on my merc after the 5.X buffs because it became too boring. The class became so insanely easy I actually fell asleep playing it. I wish it could go back to the 4.X days but keep responsive safeguard and get double rocket out again. All these training wheels do is keep players from learning the basics of PvP movement and keeps them bad. There is a reason why the skill gap on merc specifically is so wide between the good players and everyone else.

 

1 hour ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Concealment is terrible right now, Since the nerf it got hit with a while back, its outclassed by lethality. Lethality does everything Concealment does and better. 

Yeah, I'm going to guess that you don't actually play concealment and are just listening to whiners like snave and his friends. While I would like them to return countermeasures, everything else about concealment is fine, especially in warzones. It has good defenses, very high burst phases, is still amazing at stalling, strong rotational burst, good sustained damage and nice self heals. It is still the best 1v1 class and the best node guard. 

Also complaining that it is not as good as lethality is pretty weak as lethality is one of the best specs in PvP right now. Lots of specs are outclassed by lethality, not sure what your point is.

Edited May 5, 2023 by sithBracer

[SentinalMasterWW]

29 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

I said this to you many times, and I'll say it again as nicely as I can, you do not understand even the PvP basics of most classes. I strongly recommend you practice playing classes/specs like deception, PT, sorc and learn how to counter them.

I've played every spec in PVP from tank to healer, to DPS. I generally know the ins and outs of every spec. I've played Deception on my main Jedi toon and I generally don't play it. Why? Because it turns fun into Ez mode, I can dominate and control Arenas. There is no skill to be had with Deception, I've gotten focused by the other team in Arenas and still came out on top. Madness I've gone on insane streaks in Arena's and Warzones, I play Lightning more because its not the meta and is more fun. As for PT, I play Pyro its more fun than just unloading and playing the Kamikaze style that is AP. 

Point is that I don't play those specs because there is no challenge to be had or skill based gameplay. I have more fun trying to stay alive as a hatred sin than nuking people as Deception. 

29 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

The class became so insanely easy I actually fell asleep playing it. I wish it could go back to the 4.X days but keep responsive safeguard and get double rocket out again

So you want the spec to be harder, but want to keep an ability that was added in 5.0 to give the spec more defensives and make it easier? You are counteracting your own point. 

29 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

All these training wheels do is keep players from learning the basics of PvP movement and keeps them bad. There is a reason why the skill gap on merc specifically is so wide between the good players and everyone else.

I mean Gunnery/Arsenal is the entry level DPS class, but when Mastered can be played very well in the hands of a skilled Merc/Commando. I don't mind that Gunnery/Arsenal is simplistic, it is the ideal starter class for new players joining the game, Great Defensives and Solid DMG, and a general simplistic rotation. 

Yeah I dumpster on other Mercs/Commandos but that is because I have been practicing the ins and outs of it, Know when to pop Defensives, how to maximize burst windows, etc. Basically its easy to learn the basics but it takes skill and time to master it. I don't gloat against them as they may be new to PVP and are still learning the ins and outs. 

36 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Yeah, I'm going to guess that you don't actually play concealment and are just listening to whiners like snave and his friends. While I would like them to return countermeasures, everything else about concealment is fine, especially in warzones. It has good defenses, very high burst phases, is still amazing at stalling, strong rotational burst, good sustained damage and nice self heals.

It still gets outclassed by lethality, Lethality has the Roll heal with kolto injection, With Corrosive gernade it has good ability to hit multiple people. Has greater burst DMG, etc. 

Concealment is good at guarding nodes I'll give you that, but because it is so single mindedly focused it cannot do a 1v2, Lethality can do that. Concealment does have some tricks up its sleeve, but when they use it up, it really gets outclassed by every other spec. 

41 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Also complaining that it is not as good as lethality is pretty weak as lethality is one of the best specs in PvP right now. Lots of specs are outclassed by lethality, not sure what your point is.

Point is, is that Why would players want to play a weaker spec like Concealment when they can play the easier and much better spec lethality? It's why everyone moved to Madness sorc after Lightning got hit with the nerf bat, It's easier and does generally everything better. The people who still main Concealment do so more out of the enjoyment of the spec rather than it being the meta. 

[sithBracer]

16 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I've played every spec in PVP from tank to healer, to DPS. I generally know the ins and outs of every spec. I've played Deception on my main Jedi toon and I generally don't play it. Why? Because it turns fun into Ez mode, I can dominate and control Arenas. There is no skill to be had with Deception, I've gotten focused by the other team in Arenas and still came out on top. Madness I've gone on insane streaks in Arena's and Warzones, I play Lightning more because its not the meta and is more fun. As for PT, I play Pyro its more fun than just unloading and playing the Kamikaze style that is AP. 

Yeah you might have dabbled in it, but even reading this and all your other posts, I can easily tell that you do not know the PvP basics of any of these classes. But, you can always prove me wrong. DM me your SF character and lets play together. If I'm wrong I will publicly admit it and apologize.

18 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

So you want the spec to be harder, but want to keep an ability that was added in 5.0 to give the spec more defensives and make it easier? You are counteracting your own point. 

See, it is statements like these that constantly prove my point. One 6s "get off me" button that has a long CD does not change the spec that much. And we all agreed during 4.X that mercs did need a "get off me" button. I don't think I've ever complained about responsive safeguards in any way other than some of the default abilities should be in a talent instead of default (this was in 5.X of course, not now). Responsive safeguards is fine. The trauma regulators and Kolto overload buff need to go, and merc should have its burst buffed and given back double rocket out.

 

22 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I mean Gunnery/Arsenal is the entry level DPS class, but when Mastered can be played very well in the hands of a skilled Merc/Commando. I don't mind that Gunnery/Arsenal is simplistic, it is the ideal starter class for new players joining the game, Great Defensives and Solid DMG, and a general simplistic rotation. 

Yeah I dumpster on other Mercs/Commandos but that is because I have been practicing the ins and outs of it, Know when to pop Defensives, how to maximize burst windows, etc. Basically its easy to learn the basics but it takes skill and time to master it. I don't gloat against them as they may be new to PVP and are still learning the ins and outs. 

Its not arsenal that is the problem. It is the insane defenses that allow people to stand and face tank that is the problem. As I said, I want arsenal back to how it was in 4.X with responsive safeguards and double rocket out. I never said anything about changing the rotation of the spec.

that is great. I've played against MANY arsenal mercs and all but 1 are terrible (and to be fair he was IO). Maybe you are that 1, or maybe I never played against you, but based on what I read so far, I'm going to assume neither are the case.

26 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

It still gets outclassed by lethality, Lethality has the Roll heal with kolto injection, With Corrosive gernade it has good ability to hit multiple people. Has greater burst DMG, etc. 

Did you just say that Lethality has greater burst than concealment? Ok I'm done. have a good day.

[AdjeYo]

8 hours ago, Zunayson said:

People are acting like snipers are losing the movement speed boost on countermeasures. If you go back to read the original post that has been edited, it is very clear that ALL snipers get the movement speed on countermeasures. This means that your current playstyle, using the movement speed boost and the knockback, is still possible. The changes as suggested now are a strict upgrade. Snipers will even get 25% suppressive fire buff, admittedly kind of useless.

I suppose if you want the knockback AND the self-heal then that's not possible, presumably because the ability tree choice would be a no-brainer.

I agree having the knockback on the suppressive fire talent is kind of silly, it's not very thematic. It would be more thematic for the knockback to be on pillbox sniper, but then you'd have to choose between ballistic dampeners. I think it's reasonable to have to make hard choices, that is after all what the ability tree is for.

3% every 2 seconds seems very reasonable. Another person suggested 3%-5% every second, which at a 400k health pool is 12KHPS-20KHPS. I think the key here is that poster suggested every second which is ridiculous. 

Hmm good point, the edit makes this abundantly clear. In that case it's totally fine I guess. It's a bit of a strange combo, AoE dps increase and a knockback, but it's fine enough I suppose. 

Nice to have the movespeed baseline, but I'd still really like for the defensive elements of Countermeasures to be seperated out into Evasion again. Ah well. 

[AdjeYo]

23 hours ago, sithBracer said:

omg its been like 9 years already, get over it. Concealment has been amazing in PvE and PvP since 3.0 and was OP in PvP all throughout 6.X. 

Concealment is hot garbage in PvE right now. And that's not exactly new, Concealment certainly hasn't been amazing in PvE since 3.0. It was okay at times.

Compare it to, let's say Hatred for instance, and you'll see why no one ever brings Concealment if they want to clear things. 

[sithBracer]

1 hour ago, AdjeYo said:

Concealment is hot garbage in PvE right now. And that's not exactly new, Concealment certainly hasn't been amazing in PvE since 3.0. It was okay at times.

Compare it to, let's say Hatred for instance, and you'll see why no one ever brings Concealment if they want to clear things. 

Well according to your own precious parse statistics, that is not the case https://parsely.io/parser/stats

According to this, the average is right in line with pyro PT and it is about 1k less than ruffian/dirty fighting which is getting nerfed. Is it the best? No. Is it hot garbage? No, in fact the % is still in the green. And remember, this is using metrics that you believe should be taken seriously.

  

On 4/29/2023 at 9:50 PM, AdjeYo said:

 So dummy parses absolutely do matter as well. They are not the end all, be all, but they should be taken seriously. (that said vengeance and specifically cut to pieces absolutely needs a nerf).

 

Anyway that being said, I was mostly talking about 3.0 until 6.X in which concealment actually was amazing most of the time and at some times it was the highest parsing spec on not only dummies, but many bosses as well. In 6.X it was OP in PvP; I know I played it as a main and I didn't even use the double stun/lower CD on roll gear set. Right now, it is fine in PvP, and fine in PvE, but I will right now admit that it is not meta in either.  I would like to see the old countermeasures back to help with mobility in PvP.

[starbuckone]

On 4/20/2023 at 4:52 PM, mrgoo said:

Can you clarify this? Is the revealed person going to take reduced damage or are you saying that if the Merc who deploys the Hunter Killer will take less damage if also stunned? The person who deploys an anti stealth is not always gettign stunned so this benifit would not impact the one that used the skill very open it sounds like.

The person who deploys it is the caster who less damage.

[starbuckone]

Looks like some copyright infringement going on here. Terminator and Hunter Killer Droid all part of the Terminator franchise.

[Nee-Elder]

45 minutes ago, starbuckone said:

Looks like some copyright infringement going on here. Terminator and Hunter Killer Droid all part of the Terminator franchise.

Yeah i was wondering the very same thing.

And i still don't understand why  @Shabir_Dhillon  ( or whomever at BioWarEA ) decided to change the skill title names in the first place after all these years.   Just doesn't make any sense imo.

[AdjeYo]

7 hours ago, sithBracer said:

Well according to your own precious parse statistics, that is not the case https://parsely.io/parser/stats

According to this, the average is right in line with pyro PT and it is about 1k less than ruffian/dirty fighting which is getting nerfed. Is it the best? No. Is it hot garbage? No, in fact the % is still in the green. And remember, this is using metrics that you believe should be taken seriously.

Should be taken seriously, but also properly interpreted and never in isolation. For instance you conveniently leave out that Pyro gets a lot of reactive damage (Thermal Yield uptime and stacks). Concealment is, together with Deception (which is getting an admittedly very slight buff), probably the worst melee spec to bring into an Operation right now. If we also consider Operations statistics, things get even bleaker. On Council there's not even a single Concealment parse (wonder why), on Brontes it is competing for the worst dps with Arsenal, Marksmanship and Fury. It's bad out there for Concealment. 

If we can complain about a slight nerf to Hatred execute, then we can also very much complain about the state of Concealment. Even after the nerf Hatred will be lightyears ahead of Concealment.

[sithBracer]

5 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

Should be taken seriously, but also properly interpreted and never in isolation. For instance you conveniently leave out that Pyro gets a lot of reactive damage (Thermal Yield uptime and stacks). Concealment is, together with Deception (which is getting an admittedly very slight buff), probably the worst melee spec to bring into an Operation right now. If we also consider Operations statistics, things get even bleaker. On Council there's not even a single Concealment parse (wonder why), on Brontes it is competing for the worst dps with Arsenal, Marksmanship and Fury. It's bad out there for Concealment. 

If we can complain about a slight nerf to Hatred execute, then we can also very much complain about the state of Concealment. Even after the nerf Hatred will be lightyears ahead of Concealment.

What are you talking about? It is middle of the road on brontes and it is in line with all the others when you look at the spread: https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/dread-master-brontes/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/ . And also, you and I both know that for brontes the most important thing is not the overall parse but the burst phases to take care of the clock phase and fingers phase, both of which scrapper excels in. lets not forget it can cheese the orbs phase (we both know how much you like to point out cheeses).

And of course it isn't there on council, ruffian/lethality is just so amazing there and can take care of so many phases, why would you not use it? What is it you are trying to prove, that it is not meta? I admit it already. I also admit it could use a small sustained buff (maybe extend acid blade and raise damage a bit). But it is still far from "hot garbage", even on brontes like you said.

As for hatred, this has been explained to you already and proven with many different examples. Hatred does not need a nerf because it is not at the top of any of the harder boss parses, not even the single target ones. As it stands, even based on BWs on words, hatred SHOULD be at the top. Why? lets go over the reasons.

1. It is the squishiest spec in the entire game, making it more of a burden for healers (and the "sustained" self heals you talk about are useless).

2. It is a melee spec so it requires special positioning in order to do dps which leads to things like downtime, and a bigger burden on some bosses where space is limited, usually more mechanics it has to deal with, and more damage it has to take.

3. It is a DoT spec. which means it requires setup time for the damage to ramp up. So because of that it can't take care of some phases that require quick burst.

4. It brings nothing to the raid group in terms of utility, not even a debuff that 5 other specs have.

All of these things combined make it a bigger burden to bring than many other classes/specs, therefore in order to compensate, it needs to have the highest dps. Does it? I believe I have more than proved that it doesn't, at least not where it counts. So why is it getting nerfed? Well, I think anyone rational would say that it shouldn't be.

INB4 "but muh jugg muh jugg"

No one is asking jugg to be nerfed and I am perfectly fine with hatred staying even beneath it like it is in many boss parses at the moment. I am just asking for hatred to not get a needless nerf, unless BW wants to compensate it with more defenses, raid utility or even range-which isn't happening and history says it never will.

Also, the person I was replying wasn't complaining about concealment as it is now, he was complaining about the 1.4 PvP nerf which is something concealment mains haven't shut up about for 9 years (#nerfOperatives amirite). They need to get over it already. Concealment was OP in PvP all throughout 6.X while deception (since you mentioned it) was nerfed into the ground after 2 months, and then nerfed 4 times more for fun. And don't even get me started on severing slash. Do I need to talk about 5.X PTs? 4.X sins being the least mobile melee spec in the game? 3.X maras being complete garbage until 3.3? Concealment had it good for a while, especially in PvP. They need get over that one nerf 9 years ago already.