Planned Class Changes for 7.3

[Nee-Elder]

49 minutes ago, Faltun said:

I mean its nice you try to adjust something in every 8 months.... but i guess its not frequent enough nor big enough to make any difference pvp wise..

Bingo ^

i continue to be flabbergasted by EA's apparent lack of support for SWTOR.  ( not counting Cartel Market  of course )

@Shabir_Dhillon is only one person doing the best he can with what little resource$ he has and seems like the only Dev ( coder ) who posts & interacts on these forums anymore.

The amount of committment & development cycles from say ESO  compared to our SWTOR is truly staggering.

Anyways, i'm getting off-topic here and i've already made my specific gripe on page 2 .  Thanks for at least engaging with us, Shabir.

[SteveTheCynic]

1 hour ago, UinixLP said:

Besides the Ling and AP changes, wich are good (but prob not enough to change the standing of the class) these patchnotes are a joke.

They aren't patchnotes.  They are rough descriptions of the things BioWare has in mind for 7.3, and nothing more than that.

[Samcuu]

Can we get some clarification regarding the viral elements tactical reworking? Nowhere on the tactical does it say that point blank shot hits twice on the primary target (of course it does) it just says it does additional damage to all enemies standing in Bushwhack. So my question is, will pbs still do aoe damage or is that being removed completely?

I've played leth operative since patch 3.0 and the last few years thanks to the tactical it has probably been the best damage dealing class for overall numbers in game, however taking away the tactical is going to take a lot of viability out of the class. My solution would be just to make the Bushwhack diameter smaller. As is it's like 10m I think which is massive, if it were to be 5m intead, you'd cut the overall dmg numbers down but would still throw a bone to the class that has no burst whatsoever besides viral elements. Gonna hit like a wet noodle. 

Btw this is a very pvp shaded opinion, not sure how the class performs in pve but I assume it does well.

Tldr: A 50% damage reduction on the leth ops best damage dealing ability seems like overkill to me tbh.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Samcuu

[LD_Little_Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Samcuu said:

 As is it's like 10m I think which is massive, if it were to be 5m intead, you'd cut the overall dmg numbers down but would still throw a bone to the class that has no burst whatsoever besides viral elements. Gonna hit like a wet noodle. 

Can we not?  It's hard enough getting adds in the 10m range for a full aoe rotation in pve, there's no need to make it worse.

If bioware just separated the way classes/abiltites worked for pve and pvp then it woudl be fine, but that's beyond bioware's capabilities.   Unfortunately if they make changes for pvp then it will change pve as well (and vice-versa).

 

 

[Samcuu]

23 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

Can we not?  It's hard enough getting adds in the 10m range for a full aoe rotation in pve, there's no need to make it worse.

If bioware just separated the way classes/abiltites worked for pve and pvp then it woudl be fine, but that's beyond bioware's capabilities.   Unfortunately if they make changes for pvp then it will change pve as well (and vice-versa).

 

 

Yeah again it's hard to balance between pvp/pve no arguments there. It just seems like a massive nerf to basically cut down the best damage ability the class has by 50%. Going to nuke the class and send it from s tier to d tier. Gotta be a middle ground there right? Of course the argument about this class is where does all its damage come from the aoe or the dots? I'm not a big enough theory crafter to be able to test out the answer to that. And just a side note cut to pieces is just as broken as viral elements if not worse and it remains untouched 😂😂

Edited April 21, 2023 by Samcuu

[Shwarzchild]

I don't understand why the super charge stacks go on thermal det.  Why can they not be built from unload? In my opinion, the class plays significantly better in terms of smoothness incorporating unload instead of some amalgamation of power shot and rapid shot.  Adding the stacks of supercharge to unload just makes way more sense to me.  

[Skolops]

Overall the changes look fine or reasonable, but the removal of the knockback from Re-establish Range is awful. Snipers are already in a very rough spot in PvP (the only place this change will matter) because of being the least mobile/hardest to avoid damage class. 

Is the idea here is to try to buff Snipers by giving them this talent for free now, but to avoid making it too strong by removing the knockback? If so, this won't be a minor or moderate buff, but a pretty significant nerf. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Skolops

[Zechalakazam]

Idk, maybe I don’t realize the bad because MY FRIKIN SNIPER MAIN NOW HAS ITS SELF HEAL BACK WOOHOOO

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Skolops said:

Overall the changes look fine or reasonable, but the removal of the knockback from Re-establish Range is awful. Snipers are already in a very rough spot in PvP (the only place this change will matter) because of being the least mobile/hardest to avoid damage class. 

Is the idea here is to try to buff Snipers by giving them this talent for free now, but to avoid making it too strong by removing the knockback? If so, this won't be a minor or moderate buff, but a pretty significant nerf. 

Agreed. The knockback should NOT be removed. 

[AwesomeTacoCat]

14 hours ago, Shwarzchild said:

I don't understand why the super charge stacks go on thermal det.  Why can they not be built from unload? In my opinion, the class plays significantly better in terms of smoothness incorporating unload instead of some amalgamation of power shot and rapid shot.  Adding the stacks of supercharge to unload just makes way more sense to me.  

This is actually a really good suggestion. The no-load rotation has always been a bit janky imo, this would make the class much smoother. 

[Exocor]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb LD_Little_Dragon:

Can we not?  It's hard enough getting adds in the 10m range for a full aoe rotation in pve, there's no need to make it worse.

If bioware just separated the way classes/abiltites worked for pve and pvp then it woudl be fine, but that's beyond bioware's capabilities.   Unfortunately if they make changes for pvp then it will change pve as well (and vice-versa).

 

 

 

With tacticals, relics and legendary options we have, it's actually not that hard. You could put more decisive effects on those items than just something that generally only amounts to a damage boost in most cases (one good example was the Neural Triggers tactical for PT). You obviously also have to compensate for the effects in the skill tree. Give the players a choice between a tactical that gives you something like an 8% DPS boost or, let's say, Carbonize for PT DPS. Give tanks the choice between an additional DCD or reduced CD on Taunts (I would imagine the latter would be more impactful in PvP). Ultimately, you can also bring back certain PvP stats (we had Expertise back in the day) on Legendaries that you don't need in PvE - and give us the option to take more DPS for PvE content. That would also allow the devs to properly scale the DPS along the Range-Melee-Dot-Burst range, while also not having a style of a class lead to an imbalanced situation in PvP - AP PT's for example will always be very strong in PvP if they are sitting at their supposed DPS spot on that balance range as a Melee Burst DPS.

 

[SteveTheCynic]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:14 PM, LD_Little_Dragon said:

If bioware just separated the way classes/abiltites worked for pve and pvp then it woudl be fine, but that's beyond bioware's capabilities. 

The only thing that's remotely hard in concept about that is defining the exact boundaries between zones that are in PvP mode and zones that are in PvE mode (as far as abilities are concerned).

In Guild Wars 1, it was easy, because each area had a clear, unambiguous, definition of whether it was PvE or PvP.  Explorable areas were obviously PvE, and PvP arenas of all kinds, including GvG battles, were obviously PvP.  Towns and Outposts were (pedantically speaking) neither, since player characters were unable to fight in those areas.(1)

It's easy in Guild Wars 2 as well, for much the same reason.  There is no PvP in the general world, not even duels, so PvP zones are limited to World-v-World and Structured PvP, and everything else is PvE mode.

In SWTOR, it's a little harder.  Which mode for abilities should the game use in PvP instances?

(1) Which led to some hilarity when the "Minion Apocalypse" mode (player killed in PvP auto-spawned an unattached (and therefore hostile) necromancer minion) turned out to work in PvP Outposts, and a player was banned (or just suspended) while actually standing around in one of those outposts.  When that happened, even without Minion Apocalypse active, Dhuum, the deposed evil god of death, would appear and kill the offender, and this triggered the minion spawn effect in any PvP area, including in PvP outposts.  Unfortunately, it could happen in the PvP outposts as well, and players in those areas were (a) frequently AFK or at least not paying attention, and (b) unable to fight back.  It was the closest that GW1 ever got to WoW's Corrupted Blood incident.

[septru]

On 4/20/2023 at 5:43 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

here is the list of 7.3 balance changes.

 

PvP class balance changes, after you kill the PvP community. lol

 

Thanks Shabir. On behalf of all the 3 PvPers left in the game, I want to say we are very grateful for these meaningless class changes. 

[Venjirai]

From a PvP perspective those are really lackluster changes.

The Neural Trigger nerf was urgently needed, but now you buff them with this new tactical that increases their damage and burst of about 20% on all their important abilities? Sorry, but this is a joke, AP is already the best burst class in the game. This change will make other burst classes not even come close.

Then the Hatred nerf. Really, what are you smoking? Just because it is overperforming in damage in PvE you decide to nerf it for PvP as well? Hatred is the squishiest spec of all with little defensive cooldowns and no passive damage reduction.
It feels like playing Lethality Operative with just one leg, but instead of giving the spec crutches, you decide to cut off a little finger.
Make Shroud baseline, give it 5 seconds duration or come cd reduction when hit or give them at least another strong defensive cooldown or passive damage reduction.

Also no damage nerf to PT/Jugg skank tanks, lol

[mccgus]

I just really wish you would bring back the old animation for immolate for PTs. It’s such a high damage ability. And it’s now smaller than flame burst. It used to be so cool with the huge burst of flame that engulfed dudes. Please bring it back. Been a loyal PT since 2013. 

[Evolen]

If we are working on PTs can we please, for the love of god, give Shield Tech a self cleanse. It's embarrassing being the only tank class in the game that can't take care of themselves on a fight like Apex.

[Exocor]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Venjirai:

From a PvP perspective those are really lackluster changes.

The Neural Trigger nerf was urgently needed, but now you buff them with this new tactical that increases their damage and burst of about 20% on all their important abilities? Sorry, but this is a joke, AP is already the best burst class in the game. This change will make other burst classes not even come close.

 

That is not correct. Currently, Pyrotech is the best Burst Class in the game. And if you think about that, the reason why we get an AP buff will become apparant.

 

[eabevella]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:31 AM, Skolops said:

Overall the changes look fine or reasonable, but the removal of the knockback from Re-establish Range is awful. Snipers are already in a very rough spot in PvP (the only place this change will matter) because of being the least mobile/hardest to avoid damage class. 

Is the idea here is to try to buff Snipers by giving them this talent for free now, but to avoid making it too strong by removing the knockback? If so, this won't be a minor or moderate buff, but a pretty significant nerf. 

They should simply return the self heal passive as a "free" skill while letting Re-establish remaining where it is now: as one of the 3 optional kills to pick.

This way PvP-er won't lose this very important buff and people like me won't get the knockback effect I don't want in PvE. It will be win-win for everyone.

[Zunayson]

Are we sure the knockback removal is to avoid gimping pve players? It's not a balance thing? It would be hard to know without hearing more from BW during the PTS phase.

If they want reestablish range to be free, but not gimp pve players, they could add a new passive, call it "Re-establish range" or something, and have it be a toggleable passive with a little bubble, like how sprint is, so that snipers could turn on and off the knockback as they please.

Cons:

• Slight rework of abilities and effects, much harder than copy + pasting the talents into "all snipers get this" ability package.
• Makes class more complicated for newbies, arguably goes against the 7.0 pruning philosophy.
• Even more flexibility for pvp snipers is potentially OP, although this one is a stretch

Pros:

• it would be awesome

[Foxunleashed]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:31 PM, UinixLP said:

on another note:
Deception nerfs are far too little (like 1% dps increase?)

you mean Deception Buff right ? 

[eabevella]

On 4/25/2023 at 1:10 AM, Zunayson said:

Are we sure the knockback removal is to avoid gimping pve players? It's not a balance thing? It would be hard to know without hearing more from BW during the PTS phase.

If they want reestablish range to be free, but not gimp pve players, they could add a new passive, call it "Re-establish range" or something, and have it be a toggleable passive with a little bubble, like how sprint is, so that snipers could turn on and off the knockback as they please.

Cons:

• Slight rework of abilities and effects, much harder than copy + pasting the talents into "all snipers get this" ability package.
• Makes class more complicated for newbies, arguably goes against the 7.0 pruning philosophy.
• Even more flexibility for pvp snipers is potentially OP, although this one is a stretch

Pros:

• it would be awesome

I got the feeling that they remove it because you don't want knock back in your rotation in pve, especially raids.

As I said before, they could simply give the sniper self heal back like it did in 6.0 and keep re-establish as an option. But that simple solution is apparently out of their thinking process.

Your idea is not bad, but you ask too much from them. They can't do anything creative that actually solve the pvp vs pve balance like some other people had said before, just separate pvp and pve skill function: they can have the same skill tree but the skills have minor adjustment to fit the needs of pvp and pve. Yes it's a lot of work (you'll have to fortify pvp spot like on tatooine etc.) but that'll at least make "balancing" easier.

[Drokisannath]

Yes, it is probably the reasoning, when it was a choice it was fine to have a rotational ability have baked in Knockback, but because the trait is now baseline it's not good if you can screw an encounter because you are doing your rotation normally and it happens to knockback a mob that needs not be.

Arguably the solution is to place this effect on another choice in addition to its previous effect, maybe use the opportunity to tentalize toward a currently undesirable talent.

But yes, you are right, the VERY obvious way to fix it is to just give cover healing on sniper baseline.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Drokisannath

[Maceman]

If they are going to change anything they need to change the space combat system let the players fly the missions the way they want to not the way someone else wants us to 

[sithBracer]

On 4/20/2023 at 5:43 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Powertech/Vanguard:

• Stealth Scan has been redesigned and renamed “Terminator Droid”. In addition to revealing stealthed enemies it also slows them and decreases their accuracy

Question about this. Does the slow and accuracy reduction only apply to classes revealed from stealth? Or does it apply to any enemy that stands in it? Also exactly how much does it slow them, how much is the accuracy reduction and how long does it last? This ability could be insanely OP or nothing at all.

 

On 4/20/2023 at 5:43 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Assassin/Shadow:
Hatred/Serenity:

• Reduced the damage bonus given from Inevitable Demise / Aching Mind from 30% to 25%.

Can you explain the reasoning for this? Hatred doesn't even parse as high as jugg and doesn't even come close when it comes to DCDs. It is the squishiest spec in the game, has to be in melee range for almost all of its attacks including DoT spread, offers no team support, has pitiful self heals, and has absolutely nothing to offer to a raid other than its parse and AoE damage. I'm not even going to get started on how horrible it is in PvP. I understand that you don't want the damage to be too high, but can you at least give some QoL or defensive buff to not make them completely useless in pvp? Something like make death field and discharge 30m, or make shroud last 5s ... or you know, actually fix phantom stride so that we don't just stay in one place when we use it and actually end up next to our target consistently?

[steveerkcanjerk]

2 hours ago, sithBracer said:

Question about this. Does the slow and accuracy reduction only apply to classes revealed from stealth? Or does it apply to any enemy that stands in it? Also exactly how much does it slow them, how much is the accuracy reduction and how long does it last? This ability could be insanely OP or nothing at all.

 

Can you explain the reasoning for this? Hatred doesn't even parse as high as jugg and doesn't even come close when it comes to DCDs. It is the squishiest spec in the game, has to be in melee range for almost all of its attacks including DoT spread, offers no team support, has pitiful self heals, and has absolutely nothing to offer to a raid other than its parse and AoE damage. I'm not even going to get started on how horrible it is in PvP. I understand that you don't want the damage to be too high, but can you at least give some QoL or defensive buff to not make them completely useless in pvp? Something like make death field and discharge 30m, or make shroud last 5s ... or you know, actually fix phantom stride so that we don't just stay in one place when we use it and actually end up next to our target consistently?

Hatred is one of the best parsing specs in the game, a nerf should honestly not come as a shock. And in terms of offering things to a raid there are plenty of times where shrouding a mechanic is not bad. We literally on NiM TFB have a hatred sin rotate a shroud in for a slam so the tank takes basically no dmg. But I would not call hatred sin horrible in pvp. Is it the best spec ever in pvp nah but is it the worst nah. But the nerf is probably coming from a PVE angle, because their numbers are actually pretty crazy.