I didn't miss the especially pvp part, if I was talking pve I'd explain why sin tanks are broken. As they are the best pick for basically every single boss (usually two sin tanks is the best setup even). The parses are just the only real source of data we have on damage. AoE damage is the last problem sin tanks have, be it in pve or pvp. A Wither, DV, Discharge is going to hit like a truck in pvp just as well as it does in pve.

Tank dps is all incredibly close at the moment. With AoE Depredating Volts sin tanks have nothing to fear from the other two tanks in the AoE department. Seriously take a look through some top tank parses on parsely: On Brontes highest is jugg, but less than a 100 dps over the next parse which is a Sin. On Dread Council, Sin provides the highest parse. This being straight up boss parses, not just dummy parsing. Sin tanks don't need any more damage either. They keep up with the others just fine, and with DV, Wither and Discharge can pack impressive AoE.

I feel like the upper end to this is a bit too much. With just Depratdating Volts and Discharge (which you can use immediatley after devour) you're already consuming all stacks on the off targets and 5 on the main target. That already scales up to 40% healing every other Wither (so every 20 seconds). Obviously that is a highball number, but even if we're only hitting 4 targets it's 20%, which is way too much. It also encroaches onto Ancient Tome of Exar Kun's territory by being another tactical that scales defensives by number of target you can hit. Essentially if you make this tactical, you can more or less get rid of Ancient Tome of Exar Kun altogether, which did become a fair bit stronger with its fairly recent buff. I do like the idea of adding some self healing, so perhaps something a little more straightforward. Back in the day Force Lightning (now replaced by Depradating Volts) used to heal 2% max health per tick with 3 stacks of Harnassed Darkness. The problem was that this couldn't really be balanced between PvE and PvP. For it to be good in PvE, it had to be OP in PvP. So eventually that was changed to granting 1% DR stacking up to 4 stacks (as we have now). I say why not bring this back as a PvP focused tactical for Sin tanks? It's clean, simple and provides a fair amount of regular self healing. My suggestion would be simple: Each time you gain a stack (or refresh your stacks) of Dark Protection, you also heal for 2% of your maximum health.

It is energy damage, which is equivalent in every way to kinetic damage. (that is why force lightning and telekinetic throw are equivalent, even though one is energy and one is kinetic). White damage means it's melee or ranged (in this case ranged). All melee and ranged damage is kinetic or energy. And all kinetic and energy damage benefits from armour break (because it is mitigated by armor). Only internal and elemental damage, which is always force or tech (yellow) doesn't benefit from armor break. (Because internal and elemental damage aren't mitigated by armor)

It's got sustained damage and AoE pressure. What you'd expect from a dot spec. Obviously it doesn't hold a candle to AP when it comes to burst, but that's kind of the point, it shouldn't.

Burst used to be fantastic with Superheated Fuel making all fire damage guaranteed crits. It's definitely less since that was nerfed, but it's a sustained spec and brings very good AoE as well, it shouldn't have amazing burst. Your suggestion wouldn't really help in any way, since elemental damage (which Immolate is) is superior to energy damage (what you suggest to change it to) even with an armour break active, since it completely bypasses armour already. Chaning Immolate to Energy damage would be a straight up nerf. And armour break makes no sense for Pyro, since almost all of your damage bypasses armour anyway.

Damage reduction passive increases are all additive, so I very much doubt that. The proof is in internal/elemental DR. That's 13% for Rage, and 15% for Vengeance. (10+3 and 10+5). So it looks like either the damage reduction from Shien or the always active damage reduction from Defening Defense is bugged. Edit: Or easier yet, just take off the armour and check the values of Kinetic/Energy DR. 3% for Rage, 5% for Vengeance, something is bugged.

AP could do with a bit more damage perhaps, but Pyrotech is perfectly fine as far as dps is concerned. Dummy parses don't do them justice, as in actual fights you'll get a lot more damage. Here's a couple of reasons why: - Thermal Yield actually gets to stack up in fights, giving you a 10% damage boost with a 50% uptime (rather than 2% damage boost with ~16.7% uptime on dummy). - Pyro Shield makes you deal damage when you take damage. Great for getting some extra damage in. - Close and Personal makes you vent heat when taking damage, leading to less basic attacks and more flame bursts, so more damage. All these things together means dummy parses are a poor reflection of Pyrotech's damage potential in raids, which is quite high. Which is why it is quite a popular class in raids. Its biggest downside has nothing to do with damage, but is its lack of a self-cleanse.

It just doesn't have miserable single target damage. Yes, parsely does mean something, it shows how specs perform on long term sustained dps. That does not always translate perfectly into raids, but it is definitely something. And when looking at actual boss parses, we can again see Anni performing just fine. Anni's sustained damage is not its problem. If Anni performs so poorly in pvp, and I'll fully take your word for that, that's not my area of expertise, then surely your suggested CC immunity seems like a great help. Maybe buff some other PvP related options perhaps? In PvE Annihilation is already very, very good. It brings great sustained single target damage, coupled with frankly insane raid healing and great raid utilities. All I've said, and you've brought me nothing to dispute this, is that Anni already has great single target sustained damage in PvE, which translates to solid damage in raid settings and brings great utility. Anni doesn't need anything to buff it in PvE right now. So CC immunity is fantastic. Strong in PvP, mediocre in PvE. Great way to help Anni in PvP without impacting PvE too much. And will also help translate Anni's theoretical sustained damage into actual damage, since CC immunity guarantees you better uptime in PvP. But you can't just keep claiming Anni's single target is bad just because you say so. It just isn't.

Pure AoE healing sorc has nothing on Operative. Revivication tickles compared to Kolto Waves, and Roaming Mend is more of a burst heal than an AoE heal. You can add Toxic Haze with tactical if you want (though I much prefer surgical) and the Kolto Injection AoE thingy. Sorc comes nowhere near the same AoE healing, but has other strengths.

Parsely parses might not be perfect, but for measuring single target sustained dps, they're pretty okay. Better than just you claiming oh I parse 28k on Anni and 35k+ on Ling. As for skill factor, the top parses are from the top players of each specs (or top parses anyway), so that more or less evens out. Unles you think that people playing Anni are just better at doing high dps than people parsing Lightning as a group, which is a pretty dubious assumption. You wondered why people consider Anni to be a top dps. It's because it's near the top in sustained damage, with great utility. Giving it more AoE damage is just silly from a pve perspective. The CC immunity you suggested seems like a great way to specifically address some pvp related weaknesses without impacting pvp, and I've been all for that from the start. I just see no reason to buff smash. If anything to help in pvp maybe make it easier to build/maintain some stacks (maybe just get rid of Annihilator stacks alltogether and reduce Annihilate's CD to what it is with stacks now?)

Even without DS it parses more than fine. And in ops too parses very solidly. It generally doesn't beat Pyro (which has just been nerfed a fair deal) and specs with better cleave like Vengeance and Virulence. But more than fine. Keeping up DS is a minor dps difference. Most important is to hit Berserk for every Rend, which is actually easier in ops because of Brazen. Not to mention you can always greed some damage with Cloak of Pain. Anni is more than okay right now. It's very good, so it's no surprise how often it's brought to some of the hardest bosses in the game.

Just look back on parsely. Only Hatred, Lethality and Virulence have higher parses on 10 million dummy during 7.3.1 (latest patch before current) and I don't see any reason why that would change with 7.4. Anni's single target sustained dps is excellent. It's its burst that is lacking (as one would expect from a dot spec) and its AoE that is okayish (which is fine for a spec with such high single target and great utility). Anni absolutely needs no buffs for PvE.

Because it literally is not the second lowest parsing spec, it's the 4th highest (before 7.4 at least, we'll need a little while to wait if and what changes with 7.4). And Madness also parses more on single target than lightning. Are you parsing on 2 million dummies and using your own personal parses to compare or something? You play every spec, sure. But if you're only hitting 27k-28k dps on Anni that's a you problem. You can parse, far, far higher than that on Watchman. More than with Rage for sure, more than most specs. And 35k+ on lightning, that's several thousand dps higher than the top lightning parse anywhere. Again, what in the hell are you parsing on?

I can't speak for pvp, but Anni has excellent sinlge target damage, on dummy parse it is literally the fourth highest parsing spec, certainly above Rage and Lightning, and it does quite well on ops parses as well. And it gets played a ton in pve, because it is so good. It's got top tier single target damage, great raid utility and passable AoE (it's main weakness). For instance, if we look at the amount of parses on R4 HM, it's at 3001. There's only 3 dps specs that get played more. There;'s Pyro and Vengeance. Both have ridiculous AoE, and both are getting nerfed (though Pyro significantly more than Vengeance admittedly). And there's Madness, arguably the best ranged dps spec right now. To say almost no one is playing it, is just factually wrong. At least as far as PvE is concerned. It is one of the most popular specs, and with good reasons. It's very strong. There's absolutely no reason to buff it for PvE. A CC immunity would help it in PvP, while barely impacting PvE, so that'd be a great buff. Buffing its AoE, not so much.

CC immunity for pvp seems good, not so sure about buffing smash though. Anni already has excellent single target damage and great utility, with okayish AoE. I feel like if you buff their AoE you take away their one real weakness.

It's old gear. Back when 75 was the max lvl it was BiS and you got it. Now level cap has increased the old gear has been rendered irrelevant.

Oh, you're right it's one there. It's 1% max health when you deal damage to a taunted target. That does just about nothing in fights without adds, but I guess you can heal a little when there's adds. Still, I think the alternative is almost always going to be better. I'd much rather have a lower Enrage CD, a rootbreak on Enrage and 10% M/R Defense when I use Enrage for the same price. But it does explain where the numbers come from.

I don't know, for my reflect really is much more iconic. Mad Dash actually feels more in direct conflict with the whole class concept. You got the whole heavily armoured bruiser kind of setup, inspired in no small part by Vader himself, it feels kinda wrong to be zipping around with Mad Dash. With Reflect having been a core ability for Juggernauts since 2.0. And the whole absorb damage to deal damage feels very Juggernaut.

I'd be nice to have again on Brontes. Strictly need is a big term, it would help a lot though. I like reflect because in burn you can take multiple orbs with it (AoE taunt 2 or 3 that are together, single target taunt and charge one that is further), but it does mean after that you're a lot less effective taking orbs. And Dash is great against slams. And of course Saber Reflect is a pretty signature ability, it feels bad to take Mad Dash over it so often. I think I've made threats on wanting Reflect to be usable on melee abilities before (like merc reflect). But that's all a bit off topic. The thread isn't about buffing or nerfing Juggs per se, moreso that I think the design of Hord's Makashi Strike is pretty wack.

So recently the Hord's Makashi Strike tactical got a buff (which is great), so I feel this is relevant to bring up again. The tactical has a fundamental problem. For those who don't know how it works, I'll describe it here. If you use Retaliation while Aegis Assault's buff is active (3% DR, 3% Absorb rate) you gain 7% DR, but lose the buff from Aegis Assault. Overall that is a pretty good tradeoff, but there is a fundamental problem with this tactical. It is very possible (and indeed even best) to maintain both buffs. Simply use Retaliation right before you reapply Aegis Assault's buff, this way you consumse the Aegis buff, gain 7% DR, and immediately reapply the Aegis buff for a combined 10% DR and 3% Absorb rate. Pretty good. So what's the issue? Well this way of playing is in direct contradiction with how Retaliation was always used, and more importantly in direct conflict with one of the only two tank legendary items for Juggs. That is the Retaliatior Package, which removes Retaliation's cooldown, clearly incentivising us to use Retaliation as much as possible. So how do we fix it? I have several ideas that could work: The easiest fix, simply remove the consuming effect of this tactical, so both buffs can exist simultaneously without a problem, while we spam away Retaliation. If this provides too much DR, a small nerf would be acceptable. Make a new legendary item that somehow synergizes with this playstyle. Perhaps make Retaliation only useble after Crushing Blow (same CD as Aegis, so could line up perfectly for CB + Retaliation -> Aegis Assault), but gain some extra damage on Retaliation, or some defensive benefit, or some utility benefit. Could also be made part of the tactical, but this would still make the Retaliator Package useless. Make it impossible for both buffs to exist at the same time. Perhaps if the Retaliator buff is active, Aegis Assault simply refreshes its duration, but doesn't apply its own buff. Or Aegis Assault does nothing, but using Retaliation refreshes the buff's duration. My least favourite option, make a new legendary item that does something different altogether. That way at least we don't have to run a legendary item that we won't make any use of at all. In conclusion I think that Hord's Makashi Strike is very much intended to be the main single target tactical for Juggs, and I do like the idea of it. However in its current state it is just incredibly annoying to use, and it invalidates one of our legendary items (that we're paying heaps of tech fragments for mind you), that just feels bad.

Overcharge Saber already grants 25% damage reduction for tanks, that is much more important than the healing it does. It's plenty fine as it is. In endgame pve self healing is meh anyway, and in pvp sins are the only tanks with stealth out. Sin tank dcds are plenty fine as they are. They could use a bit more damage perhaps, not a buff to dcd's.

It shouldn't, are you sure it's Marked for Death? Those sound more like Enraged Defense healing numbers.

4 blocks of 6 GCD's basically. But if you have the basic 6 GCD system down, the whole rotation will flow smoothly.

It's a repeating block of 6 GCD's Impale Filler* Force Scream Filler* Vengeful Slam Filler* Shatter moves across the Filler slot. Starting in the first slot and then showing up in the next Filler slot in the next block, until it skips a block and starts in the first slot again. Ravage between every two Shatters, if possible after Scream so you refresh all dots. The other fillers are mainly to maintain Rage, but with Enrage off cd you can greed a bit with Vicious slash or unprocced Hews. Open with Charge Enrage or Charge Sunder to get the early armour debuff. This is more or less what the Vengeance rotation has been since 3.0 up until 7.0 introduced lower CD on Shatter. I find it much nicer because all important damaging abilities (Shatter, Impale, Scream and Slam) are used on cooldown. Whereas currently for the optimal rotation you delay 3 of those by a GCD.