Planned Class Changes for 7.3

[Zunayson]

2 hours ago, sithBracer said:

Question about this. Does the slow and accuracy reduction only apply to classes revealed from stealth? Or does it apply to any enemy that stands in it? Also exactly how much does it slow them, how much is the accuracy reduction and how long does it last? This ability could be insanely OP or nothing at all.

It almost certainly only applies to stealthed enemies that were revealed. Firstly, the "them" pronoun grammatically refers to "stealthed enemies," and secondly the way stealth scan works today is it immobilizes enemies that are revealed, not just all enemies.

[sithBracer]

4 hours ago, steveerkcanjerk said:

Hatred is one of the best parsing specs in the game, a nerf should honestly not come as a shock. And in terms of offering things to a raid there are plenty of times where shrouding a mechanic is not bad. We literally on NiM TFB have a hatred sin rotate a shroud in for a slam so the tank takes basically no dmg. But I would not call hatred sin horrible in pvp. Is it the best spec ever in pvp nah but is it the worst nah. But the nerf is probably coming from a PVE angle, because their numbers are actually pretty crazy. 

I know it is one of the highest parsing specs in the game. It SHOULD be the highest. the simple reason is that it is melee, it is a DoT spec, it has no defenses, the lowest passive defenses, and now even stealth rez is gone. It has nothing else to offer a raid. It doesn't have a raid buff, it doesn't have a raid defense, it doesn't have a raid speed boost, it can't even off guard to lower threat anymore.

As for the shroud thing, being able to cheese a couple of simple mechanics is not the same as consistently bringing something extra to every raid that benefits the entire raid. Other classes have different kinds of cheese mechanics that hatred doesn't have. Jugg can reflect the rods against the tanks, PT can hydraulic knockback mechanics, ranged classes don't have to worry about bombs/circles/placement as much. This is honestly one of the weakest arguments people make.

And yes, hatred is one of the worst classes in PvP because it melts so fast. If you don't have a tank/healer guarding and healing you, you better hope the enemy just ignores you while you take your time spreading those DoTs.

Also I'm not against a nerf to overall dps if they just gave a few QoL/defensive buffs, which literally anyone in PvP will agree hatred desperately needs. Make death field and discharge 30m so it is easier to start setting up DoTs. Allow DoT crits to raise your passive defense by 5% per crit, make shroud 5s, make deflection less useless. Something. Melee DoT specs should not be this squishy.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

30 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

I know it is one of the highest parsing specs in the game. It SHOULD be the highest.

It definitely shouldn't be the highest and currently it is.

https://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard

You say it's a melee spec and than complain it has to be in melee range.

You want it to have the highest DPS, better heals, more range, better defenses, better movement, and better raid utility. 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

4 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Learning to read will help you a lot in life.

"Can you explain the reasoning for this? Hatred doesn't even parse as high as jugg and doesn't even come close when it comes to DCDs. It is the squishiest spec in the game, has to be in melee range for almost all of its attacks including DoT spread, offers no team support, has pitiful self heals, and has absolutely nothing to offer to a raid other than its parse and AoE damage."

I did.

Hatred parses higher than Jugg and everything else.

https://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard

[sithBracer]

10 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

It definitely shouldn't be the highest and currently it is.

https://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard

You say it's a melee spec and than complain it has to be in melee range.

You want it to have the highest DPS, better heals, more range, better defenses, better movement, and better raid utility. 

 

1. Learn to read, it will seriously help you a lot in life.

2. Please point to us on the doll where the hatred sin touched you.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 minute ago, sithBracer said:

2. Please point to us on the doll where the hatred sin touched you.

It touched me on the Parsley DPS Leaderboard.

[sithBracer]

4 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

It touched me on the Parsley DPS Leaderboard.

You take dummy parses seriously? Lol. I was referring to Boss parses, you know the stats that actually matter? Like https://parsely.io/parser/operations/lady-dominique/8/VM/dps/all/all/all/live/0/ and https://parsely.io/parser/operations/izax/8/MM/dps/all/all/all/live/0/ and https://parsely.io/parser/operations/nahut/8/MM/dps/all/all/all/live/0/ and https://parsely.io/parser/operations/dread-council/8/MM/dps/all/all/all/live/0/ and https://parsely.io/parser/operations/dread-master-styrak/8/MM/dps/all/all/all/live/0/

Edited April 26, 2023 by sithBracer

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

And if you think that boss fights are about class and not about player skill that speaks to your understanding and skill.

They parsed higher because they're better players. In the case of Vengeance, in some instances that's because they have insane fluff damage potential.

Boss fights are never about any one player.

Edited April 26, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[sithBracer]

9 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

And if you think that boss fights are about class and not about player skill that speaks to your understanding and skill.

They parsed higher because they're better players. In the case of Vengeance, in some instances that's because they have insane fluff damage potential.

So you think a parse on a dummy that doesn't fight back and just stands there is the end all and be all, while also thinking that literally all the highest parsing hatred sins in actual ops are all just bad and that all those high parsing PTs and Juggs are all ultra mega skilled?

Just stop you're embarrassing yourself at this point.

Edited April 26, 2023 by sithBracer

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Just now, sithBracer said:

Just stop you're embarrassing yourself at this point.

Quite the counter-argument.

I'm not the one that should be embarrassed.

[afwhoefuwov]

I dont play Merc or Commando but I find the new naming to be quite a mouthful lol: "Hunter Killer Droid" , "Terminator Droid".  Why not just keep it as "Stealth Scan" so it's easier and just modify the effects? 

[Venjirai]

23 hours ago, sithBracer said:

I know it is one of the highest parsing specs in the game. It SHOULD be the highest. the simple reason is that it is melee, it is a DoT spec, it has no defenses, the lowest passive defenses, and now even stealth rez is gone. It has nothing else to offer a raid. It doesn't have a raid buff, it doesn't have a raid defense, it doesn't have a raid speed boost, it can't even off guard to lower threat anymore.

As for the shroud thing, being able to cheese a couple of simple mechanics is not the same as consistently bringing something extra to every raid that benefits the entire raid. Other classes have different kinds of cheese mechanics that hatred doesn't have. Jugg can reflect the rods against the tanks, PT can hydraulic knockback mechanics, ranged classes don't have to worry about bombs/circles/placement as much. This is honestly one of the weakest arguments people make.

And yes, hatred is one of the worst classes in PvP because it melts so fast. If you don't have a tank/healer guarding and healing you, you better hope the enemy just ignores you while you take your time spreading those DoTs.

Also I'm not against a nerf to overall dps if they just gave a few QoL/defensive buffs, which literally anyone in PvP will agree hatred desperately needs. Make death field and discharge 30m so it is easier to start setting up DoTs. Allow DoT crits to raise your passive defense by 5% per crit, make shroud 5s, make deflection less useless. Something. Melee DoT specs should not be this squishy.

This guy knows what's going on.
Read my post on page 3 where I basically write the same conclusion.
Force shroud should be a basic skill for assassins at least and the talent choice instead could be a 20% DR on deflection coupled with a cd reduce when taking damage or a whole new defensive cd with a 1 min cd.

[AdjeYo]

On 4/26/2023 at 3:48 PM, sithBracer said:

Can you explain the reasoning for this? Hatred doesn't even parse as high as jugg and doesn't even come close when it comes to DCDs. It is the squishiest spec in the game, has to be in melee range for almost all of its attacks including DoT spread, offers no team support, has pitiful self heals, and has absolutely nothing to offer to a raid other than its parse and AoE damage. I'm not even going to get started on how horrible it is in PvP. I understand that you don't want the damage to be too high, but can you at least give some QoL or defensive buff to not make them completely useless in pvp? Something like make death field and discharge 30m, or make shroud last 5s ... or you know, actually fix phantom stride so that we don't just stay in one place when we use it and actually end up next to our target consistently?

Hatred is the highest parsing class when it comes to single target damage. A small knock on its damage won't change much for it. It'll probably still parse the highest out of all specs. Compared to Vengeance it has the same raid utility (I guess there's intercede for Juggs but in practice intercede basically never does anything except being a movement skill) more single target damage, less AoE. 

I don't necessarily disagree with your suggestions, but to say it parses lower than Juggs is insane, it's the single highest parsing spec there is. 

 

 

[sithBracer]

17 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

Hatred is the highest parsing class when it comes to single target damage. A small knock on its damage won't change much for it. It'll probably still parse the highest out of all specs. Compared to Vengeance it has the same raid utility (I guess there's intercede for Juggs but in practice intercede basically never does anything except being a movement skill) more single target damage, less AoE. 

I don't necessarily disagree with your suggestions, but to say it parses lower than Juggs is insane, it's the single highest parsing spec there is. 

 

 

So as I explained already, I was not talking about dummy parses. I don't take them seriously and I don't even look at them to be honest. I was specifically talking about boss parses, especially bosses that require good AoE damage which is hatred and jugg specialty like dommy mommy. Those are the parses that actually matter because they take into account ACTUAL fights, actual downtime, actual use of non attacking abilities, actual positioning. Dummy parses are just used to get a rough idea of where you think your class is compared to others, it is not the end all and be all and should never be taken seriously. I posted a few of the harder fights up and hatred is nowhere near the top of the list in any of them (you can scroll up, I don't want to look for them again).

As for jugg not having a unique raid utility, I believe it should have one as well. However you can't deny how big reflect is for dps on certain bosses, nor can you deny that defensive-wise in both raids and especially PvP jugg beats hatred by a lot.

As for the "A small knock on its damage won't change much for it." comment, well then why nerf it in the first place? If the change is insignificant and wont matter much, just don't do it right? Or is the problem that literally everyone and their mother are bringing nothing but 4 hatred assassins to raids these days?

[AdjeYo]

8 hours ago, sithBracer said:

So as I explained already, I was not talking about dummy parses. I don't take them seriously and I don't even look at them to be honest. I was specifically talking about boss parses, especially bosses that require good AoE damage which is hatred and jugg specialty like dommy mommy. Those are the parses that actually matter because they take into account ACTUAL fights, actual downtime, actual use of non attacking abilities, actual positioning. Dummy parses are just used to get a rough idea of where you think your class is compared to others, it is not the end all and be all and should never be taken seriously. I posted a few of the harder fights up and hatred is nowhere near the top of the list in any of them (you can scroll up, I don't want to look for them again).

As for jugg not having a unique raid utility, I believe it should have one as well. However you can't deny how big reflect is for dps on certain bosses, nor can you deny that defensive-wise in both raids and especially PvP jugg beats hatred by a lot.

As for the "A small knock on its damage won't change much for it." comment, well then why nerf it in the first place? If the change is insignificant and wont matter much, just don't do it right? Or is the problem that literally everyone and their mother are bringing nothing but 4 hatred assassins to raids these days?

The same thing can be said for boss parses, it's not the raw numbers that'll matter, a lot of it is fluff. Boss dps will be much, much more important than a little bit of extra damage on adds, though the latter will result in a higher parse. So dummy parses absolutely do matter as well. They are not the end all, be all, but they should be taken seriously. (that said vengeance and specifically cut to pieces absolutely needs a nerf).

As for why the change, it's a small adjustment to bring it in line a little bit, it's by no means a major nerf. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing, Hatred is over performing in the single target damage department.

As for defensives, in raids at least they are quite close. They get the same AoE DR iirc. Jugg gets it self healing more in bursts than Hatred's more sustained self healing. Saber Ward is more generally applicable than Deflection, but Deflection has a minute shorter cooldown. The difference between Dash/Reflect and Shroud is pretty small and very fight dependant. 

[raikme]

While we're at it can you add ONE thing that will help Pyro Powertech a lot? 

Make it so Rocket Punch refreshes incendiary missile duration.

[ZUHFB]

3 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

The same thing can be said for boss parses, it's not the raw numbers that'll matter, a lot of it is fluff. Boss dps will be much, much more important than a little bit of extra damage on adds, though the latter will result in a higher parse. So dummy parses absolutely do matter as well. They are not the end all, be all, but they should be taken seriously. (that said vengeance and specifically cut to pieces absolutely needs a nerf).

As for why the change, it's a small adjustment to bring it in line a little bit, it's by no means a major nerf. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing, Hatred is over performing in the single target damage department.

As for defensives, in raids at least they are quite close. They get the same AoE DR iirc. Jugg gets it self healing more in bursts than Hatred's more sustained self healing. Saber Ward is more generally applicable than Deflection, but Deflection has a minute shorter cooldown. The difference between Dash/Reflect and Shroud is pretty small and very fight dependant. 

The problem with hatred isn't, and never will be, the damage output. It is the pure fact that hatred (and lethality) add NOTHING to a raid. Both classes are useless and just pyro/anni but worse. Assassins have to do more damage than a PT or Marauder or Sniper, because... they do not bring anything else. The things not mentioned yet in jug vs sin is that jug just takes less damage in general, it also brings an armor break. As @AdjeYo mentioned its passive cleave that is good on bosses, not active cleave. Not only that but slam spamming is also funneling single target dps! Hatred (and leth, lets be real they are the same) loses single target, but it doesn't do useful cleave, it only does so much because it is stealing dps from other people, there is no need for this much dps on adds. Jugg can do it without losing damage on the target that matters, sin and op cannot. (technically op can but it might be on cd or you have to delay it etcetc, not as practical as jug)

[JamesMijkael]

On 4/21/2023 at 7:43 AM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Assassin/Shadow:
Hatred/Serenity:

• Reduced the damage bonus given from Inevitable Demise / Aching Mind from 30% to 25%.

This really isn't necessary at all. You've finally got Hatred/Serenity to a point where it's playing well, it's accessible, it's versatile and does really good damage, but does so at a cost, of being one of the biggest glass cannons in the game. It's basically balanced. There really is not rationale to reducing its damage as it's supposed to be near the top as a melee dot class. The execute phase of Hatred/Serenity is one of the main reasons people play this spec in pve, it's what makes it what it is. I understand the urge to nerf classes that are doing really good damage, but it's supposed to be. 

[JamesMijkael]

15 hours ago, sithBracer said:

As for the "A small knock on its damage won't change much for it." comment, well then why nerf it in the first place? If the change is insignificant and wont matter much, just don't do it right? Or is the problem that literally everyone and their mother are bringing nothing but 4 hatred assassins to raids these days?

100%. People play Hatred, but its by no means a flavour of the month like Death Knell deception was at the start of 6.0.

[AdjeYo]

5 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

The problem with hatred isn't, and never will be, the damage output. It is the pure fact that hatred (and lethality) add NOTHING to a raid. Both classes are useless and just pyro/anni but worse. Assassins have to do more damage than a PT or Marauder or Sniper, because... they do not bring anything else. The things not mentioned yet in jug vs sin is that jug just takes less damage in general, it also brings an armor break. As @AdjeYo mentioned its passive cleave that is good on bosses, not active cleave. Not only that but slam spamming is also funneling single target dps! Hatred (and leth, lets be real they are the same) loses single target, but it doesn't do useful cleave, it only does so much because it is stealing dps from other people, there is no need for this much dps on adds. Jugg can do it without losing damage on the target that matters, sin and op cannot. (technically op can but it might be on cd or you have to delay it etcetc, not as practical as jug)

What's the single target cost of dot spreading on Sin anyway? Thrash vs Lacerate once every 18 seconds is a pretty minimal DPS loss. Imo if they nerf Cut to Pieces a bit (in such a way that it doesn't do more single target damage than Hemophilic) Hatred will be just as viable bringing AoE damage to the raid. Since Jugg would then also pay (a small) single target dps tax to deal more AoE damage, just as Hatred does.

A bit of raid utility for Sins would be nice too.

[AdjeYo]

6 hours ago, raikme said:

While we're at it can you add ONE thing that will help Pyro Powertech a lot? 

Make it so Rocket Punch refreshes incendiary missile duration.

Please no, dot specs don't need refreshes on their dots. They're dot specs, they should be using them dots. We already have the travesty that is Spiteful Saber on Anni, let's not do the same thing to Pyro.

[sithBracer]

13 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

The same thing can be said for boss parses, it's not the raw numbers that'll matter, a lot of it is fluff. Boss dps will be much, much more important than a little bit of extra damage on adds, though the latter will result in a higher parse. So dummy parses absolutely do matter as well. They are not the end all, be all, but they should be taken seriously. (that said vengeance and specifically cut to pieces absolutely needs a nerf).

We have things to account for this. Things like spread and overall statistics. We also have statistics on bosses where it is hard to do "fluff" damage on. Is it perfect? No, is it lightyears better than dummy parsing? yes. Here are some harder boss fights where "fluff" damage is very hard to do, as all damage matters:https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/dread-master-styrak/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/dread-master-brontes/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/master-and-blaster/8/VM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/revan/8/VM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/nahut/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/scyva/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/,https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/apex-vanguard/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/huntmaster/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/firebrand-and-stormcaller/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/warlord-kephess/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/dread-council/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/lord-kanoth/8/VM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/ (I know this one is not hard, but its basically single target from r4) . Where are all these over-tuned hatred parses you spoke of? Also based on these statistics PT is the class that really needs dps nerfs. Where are they?

Also here are some extremely easy boss parses, where the boss is literally just a parsing dummy and hatred still isn't over-tuned when you look at overall statistics and spread https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/annihilation-droid/8/VM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/soa/8/VM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/tyth/8/VM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/, https://parsely.io/parser/operation-stats/nefra/8/MM/dps/live/25/50/75/100/ (I know nothing on MM is extremely easy, but we pugged this boss for gear in early 7.X with a 306 piece).

13 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

As for defensives, in raids at least they are quite close. They get the same AoE DR iirc. Jugg gets it self healing more in bursts than Hatred's more sustained self healing. Saber Ward is more generally applicable than Deflection, but Deflection has a minute shorter cooldown. The difference between Dash/Reflect and Shroud is pretty small and very fight dependant. 

Funny how you conveniently brush over my comment on the extreme difference they make in PvP and the dps aspect of reflect. Also love the spin on the "Deflection is almost completely useless, but you can use it more ..." argument. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by sithBracer

[ZUHFB]

5 hours ago, AdjeYo said:

What's the single target cost of dot spreading on Sin anyway? Thrash vs Lacerate once every 18 seconds is a pretty minimal DPS loss. Imo if they nerf Cut to Pieces a bit (in such a way that it doesn't do more single target damage than Hemophilic) Hatred will be just as viable bringing AoE damage to the raid. Since Jugg would then also pay (a small) single target dps tax to deal more AoE damage, just as Hatred does.

A bit of raid utility for Sins would be nice too.

and sin will compete with juggernauts aoe with a single lacerate, or maybe 2 lacerates for the bounce? or what are you saying? sin is bad bc it loses single target dps in fullcleave, while jugg even gains.

[AdjeYo]

35 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

and sin will compete with juggernauts aoe with a single lacerate, or maybe 2 lacerates for the bounce? or what are you saying? sin is bad bc it loses single target dps in fullcleave, while jugg even gains.

Jugg needs an AoE nerf is what I'm saying. It's over the top to the point where others bringing AoE can be detrimental and doing AoE shouldn't mean gaining single target dps imo. 

[Sarova]

Finally, Lightning is getting a buff.  Hooray!  That concludes my TED talk.