Plz Don't Assume My Combat Style...

[BigBack]

Wow I never imagined this thread blowing up like it has when I started it! LOL!

 

The existing toons being stuck with their original advanced class and it auto converting to our primary combat style is disappointing for sure. I am glad the devs did originally intend for us to be able to switch. Maybe this is something that we can look forward to in the future? I did get some good mileage outta my Vangard but its time for him to die I know I could technically just add PowerTech to him but that seems like a waste of a combat style if I am also stuck with Vangard. Perhaps I will recreate my Trooper when the expansion drops as a dark side PowerTech full of hate and frustration with life LOL.

 

I also gotta be honest here the mirror switching really feels designed backwards to me. Existing toons that have done the story and have gotten the chievos are effecting punished for playing the game while new toons who haven't finished the story and haven't done the chievos are rewarded with the mirror choice? Does anybody else feel like this is the exact opposite of how it should be?

 

Cheers,

Jeremy

[Farferello]

You will have access to a second combat style right away with that character, because you've presumably finished chapter 3 on at least one character in the past (which unlocks the second combat style for your legacy). Since you have LSV/DSV in your legacy, you can choose Juggernaut for it.

 

You just can't switch your primary style to Juggernaut and then choose Assassin for your secondary, as an example. That's the restriction they've put in place here.

 

That's good to know but the restriction sucks and feels like it punishes older players who have done certain things/earned certain achievements and it's still ridiculous that all this information comes from a Discord instead of being posted on the actual forum where most people go to looking for information. The lack of communication and then this sudden change has made an expansion I was already dreading, much worse.

[mentalmackem]

Hi all,

 

For transparency and context for those who are reading the dev tracker only, the choosing your Combat Style for existing characters text being referenced in this thread is from the Separating Story and Gameplay article that was published a while go.

 

There's been an update to this. We originally planned to allow players to switch their primary combat style with existing characters upon loading up 7.0, unfortunately we discovered some technical hurdles that will prevent us from supporting that. So upon login, existing characters will maintain their existing Advanced Class, which will be converted into their first Combat Style. And eligible players will still be free to choose their second Combat Style.

 

The original article has been updated to reflect this.

 

Not being funny but you guys have clearly known this for a while so when was this actually going to be communicated to the player base? Or where you just hoping we would all login on the 14th and not realise?

 

Why has it took a player calling bioware out for you to tell us this?

[NashtheGreat]

Not being funny but you guys have clearly known this for a while so when was this actually going to be communicated to the player base? Or where you just hoping we would all login on the 14th and not realise?

 

Why has it took a player calling bioware out for you to tell us this?

 

Asking the real questions here.

 

I work in software development myself, specifically on the business side where we define new features and explain what they will offer to clients in terms of user experience. It is ESSENTIAL to put everything on the table and leave zero doubt when it comes to functionality. If you leave the slightest inkling of information vague around how something will work, you allow people to make assumptions and ultimately be disappointed in YOU.

 

Bioware - You definitely have known about this issue for a while, yet all communications from streams to forums until this thread have allowed the player base to misinterpret how the class feature would work:

1. People have been spending hours leveling new characters with the intention of switching classes, which they now cannot do. They can 'deal with it', or reroll and consider all that time spent a sunk cost. Some of these players have also probably spent Cartel Coins on in-game purchases, which they also need to now accept as a sunk cost.
   
2. Subscribers get a secondary class that F2P players don't get, so in essence you've inadvertently made accessing a new class on an existing character a paid feature. It was NEVER communicated that playing new classes on existing characters would cost money.
   
3. It sounds like the limitations around switching between 'mirror classes' for force users are tied to story progression, so this even impacts people that just wanted their character's aesthetic to feel correct for their character.
   
4. Generally, when you create a new character, even though you get to pick your class from a wider range, you're stuck with it. Many of us assumed we would get to try out everything on a single character and stick with what we like.
   

 

So, to summarize, regardless of what your statements in this thread say, the way it reads to the players is "You can't do the thing you thought you could do for free, but if you give us money you might be able to."

 

Since I'm not sure, I'm going to apply Hanlon's Razor here, and assume you missed all of this out of ignorance and not malice. What I am sure about though, is if in my career I managed to disappoint to this extent with a new feature it would cost my company financially due to disappointed clients seeking business elsewhere. This was your most touted new feature, It's very much a big deal that you missed the mark by as much as you did, and whatever the 'technical hurdle' you encountered was, I hope for the health of this game you do right by its loyal playerbase.

[BHWolf]

I find myself wondering which is the lesser of the two evils here.

That this is a reflection of the quality of Bioware's programming staff, or that the players were consciously misled for a considerable period of time.

 

One aspect of this that I do not think has been mentioned so far is the Commander Token. Will Bioware make it clear in the description of the restrictions on force using characters, before people spend cartel coins purchasing them?

[Bengartrell]

That's correct, except that if the Force user's legacy *does* have the mirror-alignment rank V cheevo, the switch to mirror option will not be present.

 

(That is, a DS Jedi can switch to the Sith mirror style if the legacy does not have the Dark V cheevo, and an LS Sith can switch to the Jedi mirror style if the legacy does not have the Light V cheevo. Meeting the other requirements for unlocking the mirror style will still allow you to pick the mirror as your second style if you *do* have the Alignment V cheevo.)

 

Are you serious? So just because I have all light and dark side alignment cheevo's from previous characters, I can't switch to my mirror class?!

 

That's a deal breaker.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Bengartrell

[TonyTricicolo]

I'm going to be extremely upset if the solution to fixing the locked primary styles comes from a token off the cartel market. If that is the plan then that is mad shady.

[CrazyScruffy]

I'm going to be extremely upset if the solution to fixing the locked primary styles comes from a token off the cartel market. If that is the plan then that is mad shady.

 

I asked Chris if the technical issues can be changed at a later date and allow existing toons to have the option to change their original combat style as planned. His response:

as of right now we do not see a way around the technical limitation. of course that could change with time, but we don't currently see a path forward there

 

So I believe our best hope is having the ability to choose more than two combat styles in the future, which I feel like they will have to do if they really are going to add new combat styles (which has been implied in the live stream and Chris)

[phalczen]

I asked Chris if the technical issues can be changed at a later date and allow existing toons to have the option to change their original combat style as planned. His response:

 

Scenario:

 

• I have a level 75 Sith Juggernaut.
  
• The character has completed the entire vanilla origin class story through act 3, all the expansion stories up to Echoes of Oblivion.
  
• The character is currently Light V
  
• Dark V and Light V achievements complete in the Legacy.
  

I am to understand that this character cannot and will never be able to set their PRIMARY combat style as Guardian, Sentinel, Sage, or Shadow. They will have to burn a combat style slot. This limitation does not exist for characters who have not completed Act 3, or who do not have Dark V or Light V as legacy achievements. Veteran characters are being penalized for having longstanding accomplishments in game. Correct?

[NashtheGreat]

Scenario:

 

• I have a level 75 Sith Juggernaut.
  
• The character has completed the entire vanilla origin class story through act 3, all the expansion stories up to Echoes of Oblivion.
  
• The character is currently Light V
  
• Dark V and Light V achievements complete in the Legacy.
  

I am to understand that this character cannot and will never be able to set their PRIMARY combat style as Guardian, Sentinel, Sage, or Shadow. They will have to burn a combat style slot. This limitation does not exist for characters who have not completed Act 3, or who do not have Dark V or Light V as legacy achievements. Veteran characters are being penalized for having longstanding accomplishments in game. Correct?

 

Correct. And you actually won't be able to select Guardian, Sentinel, Sage, or Shadow as your secondary, since you're 'dark locked' at this point.

[CrazyScruffy]

Scenario:

 

• I have a level 75 Sith Juggernaut.
  
• The character has completed the entire vanilla origin class story through act 3, all the expansion stories up to Echoes of Oblivion.
  
• The character is currently Light V
  
• Dark V and Light V achievements complete in the Legacy.
  

I am to understand that this character cannot and will never be able to set their PRIMARY combat style as Guardian, Sentinel, Sage, or Shadow. They will have to burn a combat style slot. This limitation does not exist for characters who have not completed Act 3, or who do not have Dark V or Light V as legacy achievements. Veteran characters are being penalized for having longstanding accomplishments in game. Correct?

 

I would not say penalized, but yes what you said is correct. and new players will have the opportunity to do it once on 1 imp and 1 pub toon. and even then they'll have to be very careful not to make them ineligible. So yes you'll need to use your second combat style if you want your mirror class (or another force style).

[CrazyScruffy]

Correct. And you actually won't be able to select Guardian, Sentinel, Sage, or Shadow as your secondary, since you're 'dark locked' at this point.

 

that is false. if you have ligh/dark 5 legacy achievements unlocked, you can pick your mirror class as the second style. he is not forced to only choose dark side

[NashtheGreat]

that is false. if you have ligh/dark 5 legacy achievements unlocked, you can pick your mirror class as the second style. he is not forced to only choose dark side

 

According to the dev posts you can't change it if the achievements are unlocked. Essentially, at that point you've passed the stage where you would have been able to choose this, unless I'm interpreting that wrong.

[Exly]

Since I'm not sure, I'm going to apply Hanlon's Razor here, and assume you missed all of this out of ignorance and not malice. What I am sure about though, is if in my career I managed to disappoint to this extent with a new feature it would cost my company financially due to disappointed clients seeking business elsewhere. This was your most touted new feature, It's very much a big deal that you missed the mark by as much as you did, and whatever the 'technical hurdle' you encountered was, I hope for the health of this game you do right by its loyal playerbase.

 

I'm not sure if I agree that they acted out of ignorance. They have done similar things too often in the past to make me believe that.

 

I also think that one of the sunk costs that you missed was the subscription fees paid by customers who based their decision of whether to pay them or not on the statements made by the devs. For those people, I can understand why they may feel like they were baited into subscribing, and are not going to get what they thought they were paying for.

[CrazyScruffy]

According to the dev posts you can't change it if the achievements are unlocked. Essentially, at that point you've passed the stage where you would have been able to choose this, unless I'm interpreting that wrong.

 

That is for new/er players. They have a small window of opportunity to SWAP their primary style to the mirror class (as long as they haven't unlocked light/dark 5 for their legacy or finished chapter 3 yet)

 

For most everyone else we have to burn our 2nd combat style on our desired style (only limitation is tech-to-tech and force-to-force)

[NashtheGreat]

I'm not sure if I agree that they acted out of ignorance. They have done similar things too often in the past to make me believe that.

Fair enough. I'm viewing this situation as primarily ignorance in the sense that Bioware absolutely knew about this before today. I'm assuming they either:

1. Assumed the community's interpretation of how the class system would work fit with the implementation prior to this thread. (Ignorant)
   
2. Vastly underestimated how the community would feel about the change and thus didn't communicate it sooner. (Ignorant)
   
3. Knew the technical issues would ultimately lead to disappointment, and decided to ignore the issue and let it be discovered on day 1 of 7.0, unless it got questioned first. (Malicious, also fairly Ignorant)
   

 

I also think that one of the sunk costs that you missed was the subscription fees paid by customers who based their decision of whether to pay them or not on the statements made by the devs. For those people, I can understand why they may feel like they were baited into subscribing, and are not going to get what they thought they were paying for.

 

This is absolutely a good point, and frankly the community needs to be compensated for this somehow. It sounds like clearing the technical hurdles aren't possible, but they need to explore expanding beyond 2 specs, and they absolutely need to give free players 2 slots.

[phalczen]

I would not say penalized, but yes what you said is correct. and new players will have the opportunity to do it once on 1 imp and 1 pub toon. and even then they'll have to be very careful not to make them ineligible. So yes you'll need to use your second combat style if you want your mirror class (or another force style).

 

I would completely characterize this as a penalty. I've watched the YouTube videos of the Force vision of the selection. I am being deprived of that because of so-called technical hurdles that have likely existed since the moment PTS opened, if not earlier. The developers managed to solve a supposedly unsolvable problem, namely, separating your class story from your advanced class and allow an advanced class swap. The developers managed to solve another supposedly unsolvable problem, namely, weapons in Outfit Designer. The developers managed to solve another supposedly unsolvable problem allowing us to have many more strongholds and legacy materials storage and all sorts of things. This isn't a case of Scotty telling Kirk he needs 8 weeks to complete the Enterprise refit when its needed in 2. The developers are capable of solving all sorts of problems but they seem unwilling to explain why depriving long time veteran players of an important immersive experience, let alone the functional usefulness of changing your primary combat style, could not be solved in time for this expansion or why the expansion couldn't be delayed for this to be fixed. This is one of maybe only three or four things for which I was actually excited about in the expansion, and its literally the only thing I was happy about regarding Combat Styles, given the ability pruning and 2-style "hard limit" for subscribers.

 

People retort with the response, well, you can always roll a new alt to experience this, it's just a cutscene. Hey, I've probably used that excuse to the players begging for a solo-version of the Dread Master operations on Oricon. Well, I don't want to roll a new alt. I've invested time into the ones I do play including the ones I wish to swap to light side Combat Styles, to experience that immersive moment. I am already facing lots of potential re-rolls thanks to bugs that didn't recognize certain romance choices. I shouldn't have to roll a new alt to experience what is literally the defining gameplay feature of this Game Update. Bioware has gone to great lengths in 7.0 with their gearing and conquest changes to ensure maintaining multiple alts at endgame is difficult, so why would I be motivated to roll a new alt that I won't be able to use at endgame like my others?

 

I actually do apologize if this sounds like a temper tantrum, but my emotions are pretty hot right now. I've been playing since closed beta and subscribed continuously, and for the first time in ten years I'm seriously considering canceling. I'm old enough to remember the Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer, I don't need this kind of aggravation in my life.

[casirabit]

I would completely characterize this as a penalty. I've watched the YouTube videos of the Force vision of the selection. I am being deprived of that because of so-called technical hurdles that have likely existed since the moment PTS opened, if not earlier. The developers managed to solve a supposedly unsolvable problem, namely, separating your class story from your advanced class and allow an advanced class swap. The developers managed to solve another supposedly unsolvable problem, namely, weapons in Outfit Designer. The developers managed to solve another supposedly unsolvable problem allowing us to have many more strongholds and legacy materials storage and all sorts of things. This isn't a case of Scotty telling Kirk he needs 8 weeks to complete the Enterprise refit when its needed in 2. The developers are capable of solving all sorts of problems but they seem unwilling to explain why depriving long time veteran players of an important immersive experience, let alone the functional usefulness of changing your primary combat style, could not be solved in time for this expansion or why the expansion couldn't be delayed for this to be fixed. This is one of maybe only three or four things for which I was actually excited about in the expansion, and its literally the only thing I was happy about regarding Combat Styles, given the ability pruning and 2-style "hard limit" for subscribers.

 

People retort with the response, well, you can always roll a new alt to experience this, it's just a cutscene. Hey, I've probably used that excuse to the players begging for a solo-version of the Dread Master operations on Oricon. Well, I don't want to roll a new alt. I've invested time into the ones I do play including the ones I wish to swap to light side Combat Styles, to experience that immersive moment. I am already facing lots of potential re-rolls thanks to bugs that didn't recognize certain romance choices. I shouldn't have to roll a new alt to experience what is literally the defining gameplay feature of this Game Update. Bioware has gone to great lengths in 7.0 with their gearing and conquest changes to ensure maintaining multiple alts at endgame is difficult, so why would I be motivated to roll a new alt that I won't be able to use at endgame like my others?

 

I actually do apologize if this sounds like a temper tantrum, but my emotions are pretty hot right now. I've been playing since closed beta and subscribed continuously, and for the first time in ten years I'm seriously considering canceling. I'm old enough to remember the Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer, I don't need this kind of aggravation in my life.

 

/this 100000 (minus the last comment-I don't remember that computer)

[NashtheGreat]

The developers managed to solve a supposedly unsolvable problem, namely, separating your class story from your advanced class and allow an advanced class swap. The developers managed to solve another supposedly unsolvable problem, namely, weapons in Outfit Designer. The developers managed to solve another supposedly unsolvable problem allowing us to have many more strongholds and legacy materials storage and all sorts of things. This isn't a case of Scotty telling Kirk he needs 8 weeks to complete the Enterprise refit when its needed in 2. The developers are capable of solving all sorts of problems but they seem unwilling to explain why depriving long time veteran players of an important immersive experience, let alone the functional usefulness of changing your primary combat style, could not be solved in time for this expansion or why the expansion couldn't be delayed for this to be fixed.

 

Not sure if anyone here plays Total War, but a few years ago development hit a snag with one of their game updates, which would ultimately delay new content for about 8 months. When Creative Assembly came to the community with this information, they followed it up within a week with a blog post, what was a transcript of their PR person interviewing the game director and the lead developer, explaining what went wrong and how they were going to make it right.

 

I'm not sure why Bioware seems to be incapable of transparency, but that really needs to change.

Edited December 3, 2021 by NashtheGreat

[TrixxieTriss]

Not sure if anyone here plays Total War, but a few years ago development hit a snag with one of their game updates, which would ultimately delay new content for about 8 months. When Creative Assembly came to the community with this information, they followed it up within a week with a blog post, what was a transcript of their PR person interviewing the game director and the lead developer, explaining what went wrong and how they were going to make it right.

 

I'm not sure why Bioware seems to be incapable of transparency, but that really needs to change.

 

There is zero transparency at BioWare and they hardly ever admit to simple mistakes. I can’t see them ever doing anything like this.

But there’s a first for everything. Maybe they’ll surprise us cynics and do something different for a change. JackieKo ??

Edited December 3, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[ChrisSchmidt]

Hi all,

 

I wanted to jump in and try and clarify some of the potential confusion in this thread.

 

There are two different topics here: The ability for existing players to change the Combat Style upon logging in to the 7.0 Game Update, and the rules around characters with Force Origin Stories when they are offered an option to swap Combat Styles with their opposite-aligned mirror.

 

Existing Characters and Combat Styles

• As Jackie posted, we fully intended for current characters to be able to choose a preferred Combat Style upon logging in for Game Update 7.0. We have worked for some time to try and make this happen, but recently ran into some technical hurdles that unfortunately prevents us from supporting this. So, as a result, when you log into the game after 7.0, your primary Combat Style will be your current Advanced Class. Choosing your Advanced Class was designed to be a permanent choice, and we will continue this with Combat Styles. We have no current plans to introduce a method to change one of your Combat Styles.
  
• As we previously stated, the ability to have a second Combat Style and the additional Loadouts that come with it are features for active subscribers. Related to this topic, we did see a question being asked of “what happens to my second Combat Style if my subscription lapses?”. In short, your “second” Combat Style will become unusable including its Loadouts. Note the quotations around the word second. If your subscription lapses, your useable Combat Style will be the one you last logged out on when the cancellation hits your account. This means that if you log out on your primary Combat Style, you will continue to be able to play with that one and its Loadouts. If you log out on your secondary Combat Style, you will continue to be able to play with that one and its Loadouts. Essentially, whichever Combat Style is active when your sub lapses is the one you will continue to use when you log back in.
  

 

Force Origin Story Considerations

• Force Origin Stories have some special considerations, since there are some restrictions in Combat Style choice that Tech Origin Stories do not share.
  
• To a brand new player, or a player who has not unlocked their Dark V/Light V achievements in their Legacy (Legacy of Sacrifice and Legacy of Unity), they are not presented with the option to choose an opposite-aligned Combat Style at character create nor when they unlock their second Combat Style, with one exception:
  
  • If a player without these unlocks has been playing their character with opposite aligned morality, such as a Jedi Origin Story as a Dark Side character, or a Sith Origin Story as a Light Side character, they will receive the option to swap their current Combat Style to the opposite alignment equivalent upon completing their Act 3 story. In addition, when they are prompted to select their second Combat Style, they will have all Force Combat Styles available to them.
    

  [*]Force Origin Story players who have already unlocked Light V/Dark V achievements will not see any restrictions, and all Combat Styles are available to them at both character create and when choosing their second Combat Style

 

There has been no change in the design of the Force Origin Story Considerations, which was first shared in this post. You can listen to me talking about all of these restrictions, and expand on why and the philosophy behind these decisions in the linked podcast in the post.

 

However, to build upon Jackie’s clarification post here, we wanted to give Force Origin Story players some choice when the 7.0 update releases. So all pre-7.0 Force characters that have opposite alignment to their current class will be given the option to swap their primary combat style to the opposite aligned equivalent upon logging in post-7.0.

 

This means if you are a Jedi Knight or Jedi Consular, and have at least 1 Dark Side point away from 0, you will be given this choice. Likewise, if you are a Sith Warrior or Sith Inquisitor, and have at least 1 Light Side point away from 0, you will be given this choice. This will be regardless of any Legacy unlocks or otherwise. Once that character is in the game, and the swap choice has been made or refused, the rules as described above will still apply.

 

Finally, I wanted to address some comments around my clarifications in Discord about the above topic. What I stated in this post is still true. I have recently been trying to clarify confusion around swapping Force Combat Styles by repeating the same information we revealed in the podcast and linked in the official forums. I will typically include a link to the official sources to reinforce where this information originated from. Any new information around Combat Styles or any other topic will be shared through official channels such as our blogs, the forums, our livestreams, etc… and those mediums will be used to reinforce or clarify any questions being answered elsewhere.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

 

[JackieKo]

Hi all,

 

I wanted to jump in and try and clarify some of the potential confusion in this thread.

 

 

 

Hi everyone,

 

I wanted to take a moment to address some points/thoughts I believe will be made in response to Chris' post, so I hope you'll allow me to have a more heart to heart moment with you all. I recognize how late this post is being made and what day it's being made on. This is not an attempt to bury information or hope that no one will notice it. We were working on reading the various posts about this topic, taking in the feedback, and making sure that the message was concise and clear. I recommended the post be made today rather than let the weekend pass because we felt this clarification would be beneficial to players reading it.

 

I know how passionate this player base is because you all love this game very much. And I know that difference of opinion tends to happen as does debate, especially on these forums. I just ask that you continue to be civil with one another and also with us and be mindful of the guidelines of these forums. Thank you.

 

Best,

Jackie

[Randor]

Hi everyone,

 

I wanted to take a moment to address some points/thoughts I believe will be made in response to Chris' post, so I hope you'll allow me to have a more heart to heart moment with you all. I recognize how late this post is being made and what day it's being made on. This is not an attempt to bury information or hope that no one will notice it. We were working on reading the various posts about this topic, taking in the feedback, and making sure that the message was concise and clear. I recommended the post be made today rather than let the weekend pass because we felt this clarification would be beneficial to players reading it.

 

I know how passionate this player base is because you all love this game very much. And I know that difference of opinion tends to happen as does debate, especially on these forums. I just ask that you continue to be civil with one another and also with us and be mindful of the guidelines of these forums. Thank you.

 

Best,

Jackie

 

And this is why you're the best Jackie! SO MUCH BETTER getting this info on a Friday than on a Monday.

 

Also proves you all work to the bitter end of the work week like the rest of us plebs. heehee

 

Thanks Jackie & Chris!!!!

[Toraak]

Chris 1 question.

 

If force characters can choose the opposite faction combat style. Sage to sorc at the beginning of 7.0 if you have the Dark V achievement, will the tech characters have an option to choose the mirror class as well? I'm not saying fully swap to any other combat style, but just to that classes mirror.

[Revan-the-knight]

Chris 1 question.

 

If force characters can choose the opposite faction combat style. Sage to sorc at the beginning of 7.0 if you have the Dark V achievement, will the tech characters have an option to choose the mirror class as well? I'm not saying fully swap to any other combat style, but just to that classes mirror.

 

This to me sounds like a smart idea, even if it isn't perfect it increases our options.