The changes you all hate are the reason I'm coming back to the game

[Meurik]

Gotta admit the number of plants is bigger this time. They tend to come out of their little holes everytime BW makes a horrid decision (like with them combat styles) and start creating little noises in favor of the changes.

 

I can definitively say, I am not a Bioware plant.

 

But I'll ask you: Why should anyone come to these forums to give feedback on changes, if the feedback is "in favor of" of the changes. Seems to me, anyone who likes the changes, or the idea of the changes gets shouted down as a "Bioware plant"

[KnightTyler]

Enure and force freeze (or whatever it's called) are incredibly boring skills. These are relics of MMOs past, they only feel impactful in certain content (which everyone seems to forget can be rebalanced) and aren't conducive to fantasy at all. They were only added because other MMOs had similar skills. Thank god I won't have to use them any more just to pass certain content, instead I could just go saber reflect which actually feels impactful and fits the fantasy.

 

Enure may seem boring in its current iteration but when I use it I always think about a Jedi Knight, Guardian more specifically, using their sheer will to stay alive and protect their friends. Protect their allies. Protect the Republic. Enduring in the face of death to buy your allies more time is part of what a Jedi is. There is nothing wrong with using "relics of MMO's past". You can take from the past, learn from it, and improve upon it. Don't do away with it entirely.

 

Clearly so many of you see this as vital because you look at it in the context of current balance, you like to click lots of things and again i can respect that. I however want to be a Jedi, I want abilities to be flashy and support my class fantasy not just reduce damage taken by a % in a rotation vs a boss.

 

Look at New World. Not really much lore that most of us know about. Nothing to really connect to the universe. Most of us are just going to be playing it and trying it out because its new. They have 2 weapon bars which allow 3 abilities per bar. Do you honestly believe you could capture the theme of a Jedi Knight with 6 abilities? Even going further, could you capture the theme of a Jedi Sentinel, Jedi Guardian, Jedi Shadow, Jedi Sage, and make them all feel unique and iconic to the role and specialization with so few abilities? Its just not possible. We want to feel like heroes and villains using a vast array of abilities that stem from our characters knowledge and prowess, not some generic character with 3 abilities that doesn't capture the essence of what the class is.

 

I agree I want abilities to be flashy and support class fantasy! Reducing damage taken is mechanically part of what allows a character to feel heroic. If we all died in 1 hit like a hardcore mode FPS then we wouldn't have that heroic feeling. Fights need to be drawn out to feel cool and rewarding when you defeat the enemies. Nobody wants to be One Punch Man always bored because you insta kill everything.

[Savej]

I can definitively say, I am not a Bioware plant.

 

But I'll ask you: Why should anyone come to these forums to give feedback on changes, if the feedback is "in favor of" of the changes. Seems to me, anyone who likes the changes, or the idea of the changes gets shouted down as a "Bioware plant"

 

And your list of "everyone that's been shouted down" right now is one person?

[Meurik]

And your list of "everyone that's been shouted down" right now is one person?

 

Of course I'm on that list, but I am not the only one. Does it matter?!? Does Feedback need to agree with yours for it to be valid? Or is all feedback that contradicts your own, automatically from a "Bioware plant" ?

[zorngodofall]

Of course I'm on that list, but I am not the only one. Does it matter?!? Does Feedback need to agree with yours for it to be valid? Or is all feedback that contradicts your own, automatically from a "Bioware plant" ?

 

No, for feedback to be valid it needs to be objective, not subjective, reality based and meaningful

[alucinorm]

Pretty sure I didn’t accuse you or even insinuate you were. Funny you would think I was talking about you personally unless I hit an unexpected nerve?

 

Now as for your other points.

Wild star failed, so I’m not sure we want to copy their failed game.

And FFXIV has nearly the same amount of abilities or more as some swtor classes, I’m not sure where you are going with that comparison?

 

I'm the OP and you're in my thread talking about how I guess someone else is a plant. I guess I assumed wrong then.

 

Wild Star did not fail due to the combat system, and even if it did it doesn't take away from the fact that there were players that enjoyed the gameplay style. Never talked about copying it anyway, just stated it was the sort of combat I enjoyed.

 

That was my point about FFXIV, there are more abilities than swtor in most cases, certainly more that are needed to execute your job properly. It's not a game where you ca just 'not use some abilities' I brought it up to counter the claim that I can't handle buttons. I enjoy that game, they pull the nr of abilities off, swtor def does not.

[alucinorm]

No I don't think it was. I dont find your opinion valid and I dont think the rest of us should deal with the consequences of it.

 

I don't care what you think is valid, objectively it's as valid as your opinion. What do certain players like and how much money are they sinking into the game, simple. And again you go with the 'rest of us' you have no idea how many players want to streamline this mess, the forums are vastly biased by some hardcore dinosaurs. Again dinosaur opinions are valid too, but there are other beasts on this planet too.

[JCDenton]

Obvious bait, but in this place it'll still work. Four pages in already, obviously it did.

 

"I'm coming back to the game because an optional ability may be removed in several months." More people should consider, before replying to things, whether what they're replying to sounds like something a real human being would say in real life, or does it sound like an exaggerated caricature.

[suuperzachary]

I mean you pretty much say "Yeah ok I'm a casual, I play solo in a MMO, my daily routine consists of doing heroics 2, solo levelling my 70 characters and I'm cool with only using my rapid shots auto hit on my tank because it's how it's supposed to be, I'm glad they're removing buttons", you remind me of people blaming the game for being way too easy but the only content they've ever done are chapter and story mode old operations.

 

Yeah so you basically play 10% of the content proposed by the game where you're always alone, but, there are some people like me who really enjoy the harder content such as MM ops.

 

Those buttons you find "useless" are what we need to think about when elaborating our strategies to take down bosses. Just because you don't like using something doesn't mean the others don't feel the need for the same button too.

"Oh this boss puts a dot on everyone, so for melees you can stay with your jugg because you can dispell yourself with enure", those tiny details are what makes each classes, streamlining everything completely deletes any depth from the game and IMO, solo players and casuals are NOT what games should aim their changes for.

 

If everyone was like you, we would have only our melee hit for each class and healers would just shoot lasers that heals with one button and we're done. Bosses would be dummies we hit for 5 minutes and we're done.

 

Complexity and depth define the game, "old relics of the past" are what make classes unique and useful, pruning everything is not a good thing.

Edited August 3, 2021 by suuperzachary

[omaan]

You can already do that. In fact after 6.0 you can do every single content in the game with just using whatever abilities you find cool. The only place you need to use more abilities is the same content at artificially harder difficulty modes (HM, MM) , which means only the players who choose to do those. There is NOWHERE in this game that requires you to use Enure or Freezing Force. Your whole point is invalid.

 

i FACe-tanked through all story content with using only main damage abilities. Didn't even watched on defensive cooldowns or slowing/stun abilities. So yeah, OPS point is really invalid

[zorngodofall]

I don't care what you think is valid, objectively it's as valid as your opinion. What do certain players like and how much money are they sinking into the game, simple. And again you go with the 'rest of us' you have no idea how many players want to streamline this mess, the forums are vastly biased by some hardcore dinosaurs. Again dinosaur opinions are valid too, but there are other beasts on this planet too.

 

No, it's not. Just because I pay a sub and you pay a sub don't give equal validation to our arguments. And no, the forums aren't filled with 'Hardcore dinosaurs". They are people who know the game intricately and play the game intricately at a high level. Hell, even just a competent level. They actually do the content where the abilities all become relevant.

 

And let's not dodge accountability here. You've been caught saying you can't be bothered to learn the game because it's too complex and you don't understand what abilities do, but also haven't done the thing that teaches you to do this. That's like taking a job IRL, not going to the training for it, then complaining to your boss your job needs to be made simpler because you don't understand how to do it.

 

That screams entitlement

[alucinorm]

No, it's not. Just because I pay a sub and you pay a sub don't give equal validation to our arguments. And no, the forums aren't filled with 'Hardcore dinosaurs". They are people who know the game intricately and play the game intricately at a high level. Hell, even just a competent level. They actually do the content where the abilities all become relevant.

 

And let's not dodge accountability here. You've been caught saying you can't be bothered to learn the game because it's too complex and you don't understand what abilities do, but also haven't done the thing that teaches you to do this. That's like taking a job IRL, not going to the training for it, then complaining to your boss your job needs to be made simpler because you don't understand how to do it.

 

That screams entitlement

 

My argument is people have different preferences, you haven't countered that, instead you've had a different argument.

 

I've also not at all 'been caught' not wanting to learn the game. I curved mythic nyalotha before I quit wow.

[alucinorm]

What is defined as fun here? like that's a horrible argument. That is a thing completely subjective and unique to everyone with Like why is it not fun to hit enure? I love being healed to full in pvp because of a mistake my opponent made. What is a fun factor, like all of this is entirely subjective to every unique person and honestly it has less concrete arguments than the guy you criticized above.

 

From what I understand you don't even play the game, so how can you even say. From what I can tell it's "less abilities is more fun" - For whom. Because it makes the game a lot more boring and a lot less interactive to me.

 

You didn't actually read my post, the whole premise is people have different preferences, once you take that message in then of course when I say 'fun' it's in the context of the original premise which recognizes it's subjective. I only even went down that road because people kept trying to argue that I was wrong for having my preference so I'm simply explaining it further.

 

I don't play the game RIGHT NOW, but have over a 1000 hours in it most likely. Played first when it came out then many long periods of time after. Got all classes maxed which I guess everyone does but still.

[DeannaVoyager]

 

I don't play the game RIGHT NOW, but have over a 1000 hours in it most likely. Played first when it came out then many long periods of time after. Got all classes maxed which I guess everyone does but still.

 

That explains a lot.

[tharlainmar]

LoL, except said twitch players don’t even take the time to learn a proper rotation or gear and then complain they have too many buttons to press and TTK is too high. Then they up and leave the game after complaining about it.

 

Money would be better spent on real commercials and content development instead of pandering to these twitch streamers who won’t stick around once their next pay check comes along.

 

No one on twitch is getting paid to play SWTOR trust me lol. Twitch bounties require them to put #sponsored to let everyone know they are getting money from streaming the game, everyone that is streaming and have been streaming aren't getting anything out of it aside from ads or donates/subs, even big name streamers that come to play with their 3k-30k viewer base aren't getting paid to stream it, Bioware doesn't have it in them to do that

[HamadKyron]

Greetings!

 

Enure and force freeze (or whatever it's called) are incredibly boring skills. These are relics of MMOs past, they only feel impactful in certain content (which everyone seems to forget can be rebalanced) and aren't conducive to fantasy at all. They were only added because other MMOs had similar skills. Thank god I won't have to use them any more just to pass certain content, instead I could just go saber reflect which actually feels impactful and fits the fantasy.

 

See, but why does your hate of a "boring skill" need to dictate my fun when we could just keep them? Most people don't like Freezing Force, but it's one of my favorite abilities when combined with the utility that gives it a speed boost. I run a lot of NiM ops as a tank, and while most people don't need it, I think having an on-demand speed boost that isn't tied to a DCD is really nice in a lot of fights. I enjoy being able to click that skill, do a cool little animation around my character, and then be faster than I was before. If you want to take that fun away from me because you don't think having choices matters, that's just weird.

[casirabit]

I can definitively say, I am not a Bioware plant.

 

But I'll ask you: Why should anyone come to these forums to give feedback on changes, if the feedback is "in favor of" of the changes. Seems to me, anyone who likes the changes, or the idea of the changes gets shouted down as a "Bioware plant"

 

Incorrect, Trixxie and I have a difference of opinion but I have yet to be called a plant. We have discussed the difference and even though we disagree neither of us has called either a plant. It get suspcious when someone comes to the forum to one forum and post things and yet they haven't tried out the PTS to see how it works. While there are some good things I like there are also some abilities that need to be added back.

 

I have a problem with anyone who makes a complaint about the abilities without testing them. While I may disagree with those that have a different view than mine, I respect those that have actually took the time to test the changes instead of just coming to the forums and either complaining or liking the changes when they haven't even tried the changes.

Edited August 7, 2021 by casirabit

[alucinorm]

See, but why does your hate of a "boring skill" need to dictate my fun when we could just keep them? Most people don't like Freezing Force, but it's one of my favorite abilities when combined with the utility that gives it a speed boost. I run a lot of NiM ops as a tank, and while most people don't need it, I think having an on-demand speed boost that isn't tied to a DCD is really nice in a lot of fights. I enjoy being able to click that skill, do a cool little animation around my character, and then be faster than I was before. If you want to take that fun away from me because you don't think having choices matters, that's just weird.

 

Hi,

 

I'm not arguing that they should take your ability away, I'm arguing that some players don't feel the same way as the forum majority and that it's subjective vs objective on both sides. So we don't disagree and you're arguing with a straw man.

 

To give proper feedback to the devs it should be with the understanding that players have different preferences and just because a majority of forum posters feel one way it does not make that objective or even a true majority opinion.

 

Your example is easily solved anyway, freezing force could be a choice competing against a smaller passive boost. You get your button, I get a smaller passive advantage. My OP is not about removing skills just to make the game fun for me, it's explaining that I prefer fewer buttons in general - there are many ways to achieve that.

 

The responses to this thread just proves my point, the game is full of close minded people that assume people with different preferences are noobs or stupid or even Bioware plants.

[alucinorm]

Incorrect, Trixxie and I have a difference of opinion but I have yet to be called a plant. We have discussed the difference and even though we disagree neither of us has called either a plant. It get suspcious when someone comes to the forum to one forum and post things and yet they haven't tried out the PTS to see how it works. While there are some good things I like there are also some abilities that need to be added back.

 

I have a problem with anyone who makes a complaint about the abilities without testing them. While I may disagree with those that have a different view than mine, I respect those that have actually took the time to test the changes instead of just coming to the forums and either complaining or liking the changes when they haven't even tried the changes.

 

It would be suspicious/dumb of a plant to admit they hadn't tried the changes. I didn't come here to comment on specific changes, I've mentioned several times that I am excited about the design intent behind the changes and wanted to point out that many are. The overwhelming feedback here is that the intent is dumb and they are just taking away buttons and how could they because it's so obviously objectively stupid to do so.

 

Ironically if some people here would internalize my comments it would help them make better arguments and actually convince devs to leave their skills in, it's about constructive feedback vs ranting/raging.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

It would be suspicious/dumb of a plant to admit they hadn't tried the changes. I didn't come here to comment on specific changes, I've mentioned several times that I am excited about the design intent behind the changes and wanted to point out that many are. The overwhelming feedback here is that the intent is dumb and they are just taking away buttons and how could they because it's so obviously objectively stupid to do so.

 

Ironically if some people here would internalize my comments it would help them make better arguments and actually convince devs to leave their skills in, it's about constructive feedback vs ranting/raging.

 

You are not supposed to give feedback based in intent, but on what is actually on the PTS.

 

The PR people are only repeating what they have been told, they do not know what the coders are doing anymore than we do.

 

Proof? I pointed out that the jedi sentinal was missing the hard stun on the PTS. this is what the PR people claimed:

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9961292#edit9961292

 

They were WRONG.

 

Base your feedback on what is actually showing up on the PTS, not on PR and pipedreams.

[TrixxieTriss]

Hi,

 

I'm not arguing that they should take your ability away, I'm arguing that some players don't feel the same way as the forum majority and that it's subjective vs objective on both sides. So we don't disagree and you're arguing with a straw man.

 

To give proper feedback to the devs it should be with the understanding that players have different preferences and just because a majority of forum posters feel one way it does not make that objective or even a true majority opinion.

 

Your example is easily solved anyway, freezing force could be a choice competing against a smaller passive boost. You get your button, I get a smaller passive advantage. My OP is not about removing skills just to make the game fun for me, it's explaining that I prefer fewer buttons in general - there are many ways to achieve that.

 

The responses to this thread just proves my point, the game is full of close minded people that assume people with different preferences are noobs or stupid or even Bioware plants.

 

And you can’t give proper feedback because you’ve not tried the PTS. Your argument is nonsensical and not proper because you’ve not tried PTS.

[alucinorm]

And you can’t give proper feedback because you’ve not tried the PTS. Your argument is nonsensical and not proper because you’ve not tried PTS.

 

Read the title and the OP, this is addressed to you and yours, not the Devs.

 

My intent was to explain something to you, some of us are in favor of this design direction. Understanding that would help you. Instead of picking up little nuggets and burning strawmen.

[alucinorm]

You are not supposed to give feedback based in intent, but on what is actually on the PTS.

 

The PR people are only repeating what they have been told, they do not know what the coders are doing anymore than we do.

 

Proof? I pointed out that the jedi sentinal was missing the hard stun on the PTS. this is what the PR people claimed:

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9961292#edit9961292

 

They were WRONG.

 

Base your feedback on what is actually showing up on the PTS, not on PR and pipedreams.

 

This thread is addressed to you and yours, not the devs. If I manage to get on the PTS and test I would put my feedback in the relevant thread.

[TrixxieTriss]

Read the title and the OP, this is addressed to you and yours, not the Devs.

 

My intent was to explain something to you, some of us are in favor of this design direction. Understanding that would help you. Instead of picking up little nuggets and burning strawmen.

 

How can you know if you’re in favour of something that you haven’t even looked at or seen. That’s why your posts come across as nonsensical and non genuine.

It’s pointless even trying to have an educated conversation with you because you won’t even download and check out the changes.

How can you understand or talk about something from an educated point of view if you have no reference of the subject. So I’m going to stop replaying to your posts until you actually test the content.

[alucinorm]

How can you know if you’re in favour of something that you haven’t even looked at or seen. That’s why your posts come across as nonsensical and non genuine.

It’s pointless even trying to have an educated conversation with you because you won’t even download and check out the changes.

How can you understand or talk about something from an educated point of view if you have no reference of the subject. So I’m going to stop replaying to your posts until you actually test the content.

 

I've gamed for decades, I've played dozens of MMOs, not to mention almost every game of note released on PC. Swtor is old and bloated, for someone who evolves with the times it just doesn't cut it combat wise. If you have to have 30 buttons, then FFXIV does that muuuuch better, swtor is essentially world of warcraft 8 years ago. I udnerstand some don't like change and they are very attached to their gameplay and like I've said that's perfectly valid. I only wanted to communicate that not every potential SWTOR player comes from that same place and so the majority of the feedback starts off with the wrong premise.

 

Same goes for your answers, they ignore my point and where I'm coming from. Right now if I played PTS I think I'd enjoy loadouts but find the rotations boring, Bioware will have to introduce far more change or they will lose everyone. I'll test it when we have more classes ready and maybe we will discuss then but based on your attitude I suspect it would devolve then as well.