Haha fair enough, we still wouldn't agree on what they should do about it though. Cheers.

To be fair it took a huge back and forth to get at some sensible feedback. Even assuming this point of them messing it up for everyone is completely true, taking a hardcore stance in some sort of mental play to say removing skills is terrible and my point of view is 'objective' is hardly the best approach. Had some of the points in this thread been made instead I would have been with it from the beginning BUT both bioware and the forum majority were misleading about what was going on.

Yeah I get it, my bad. I wasn't trying to white knight, I was just hoping for a combat revamp that would make me enjoy it more, seems like they are ruining it for everyone.

yeah I'm with you, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's almost unbelievable they would go this route.

So you're saying they are making dumb decisions within their intended plan, thus making no one happy. Well good point sir, I guess if they stick to that then no one will play the game anymore.

My UI is highly customized my dude, every skill is keybound, I have a rzer orbweaver and logitech g600 mouse, I can handle stuff just fine. Again you're making assumptions like most people here that a different preference means stupidity or ignorance. you're just mad I don't have the same opinion as you and you want desperately for it to be invalid so there will be no risk to your preference. Your assumptions about costs to spruce up combat are incorrect, other MMOs do it all the time. But maybe you're right, previous reworks have been very hit and miss for bioware. Hate the most recent vanguard, the removal of mid range and channeled powers, lame.

I've gamed for decades, I've played dozens of MMOs, not to mention almost every game of note released on PC. Swtor is old and bloated, for someone who evolves with the times it just doesn't cut it combat wise. If you have to have 30 buttons, then FFXIV does that muuuuch better, swtor is essentially world of warcraft 8 years ago. I udnerstand some don't like change and they are very attached to their gameplay and like I've said that's perfectly valid. I only wanted to communicate that not every potential SWTOR player comes from that same place and so the majority of the feedback starts off with the wrong premise. Same goes for your answers, they ignore my point and where I'm coming from. Right now if I played PTS I think I'd enjoy loadouts but find the rotations boring, Bioware will have to introduce far more change or they will lose everyone. I'll test it when we have more classes ready and maybe we will discuss then but based on your attitude I suspect it would devolve then as well.

This thread is addressed to you and yours, not the devs. If I manage to get on the PTS and test I would put my feedback in the relevant thread.

Read the title and the OP, this is addressed to you and yours, not the Devs. My intent was to explain something to you, some of us are in favor of this design direction. Understanding that would help you. Instead of picking up little nuggets and burning strawmen.

It would be suspicious/dumb of a plant to admit they hadn't tried the changes. I didn't come here to comment on specific changes, I've mentioned several times that I am excited about the design intent behind the changes and wanted to point out that many are. The overwhelming feedback here is that the intent is dumb and they are just taking away buttons and how could they because it's so obviously objectively stupid to do so. Ironically if some people here would internalize my comments it would help them make better arguments and actually convince devs to leave their skills in, it's about constructive feedback vs ranting/raging.

Hi, I'm not arguing that they should take your ability away, I'm arguing that some players don't feel the same way as the forum majority and that it's subjective vs objective on both sides. So we don't disagree and you're arguing with a straw man. To give proper feedback to the devs it should be with the understanding that players have different preferences and just because a majority of forum posters feel one way it does not make that objective or even a true majority opinion. Your example is easily solved anyway, freezing force could be a choice competing against a smaller passive boost. You get your button, I get a smaller passive advantage. My OP is not about removing skills just to make the game fun for me, it's explaining that I prefer fewer buttons in general - there are many ways to achieve that. The responses to this thread just proves my point, the game is full of close minded people that assume people with different preferences are noobs or stupid or even Bioware plants.

You didn't actually read my post, the whole premise is people have different preferences, once you take that message in then of course when I say 'fun' it's in the context of the original premise which recognizes it's subjective. I only even went down that road because people kept trying to argue that I was wrong for having my preference so I'm simply explaining it further. I don't play the game RIGHT NOW, but have over a 1000 hours in it most likely. Played first when it came out then many long periods of time after. Got all classes maxed which I guess everyone does but still.

My argument is people have different preferences, you haven't countered that, instead you've had a different argument. I've also not at all 'been caught' not wanting to learn the game. I curved mythic nyalotha before I quit wow.

I don't care what you think is valid, objectively it's as valid as your opinion. What do certain players like and how much money are they sinking into the game, simple. And again you go with the 'rest of us' you have no idea how many players want to streamline this mess, the forums are vastly biased by some hardcore dinosaurs. Again dinosaur opinions are valid too, but there are other beasts on this planet too.

I'm the OP and you're in my thread talking about how I guess someone else is a plant. I guess I assumed wrong then. Wild Star did not fail due to the combat system, and even if it did it doesn't take away from the fact that there were players that enjoyed the gameplay style. Never talked about copying it anyway, just stated it was the sort of combat I enjoyed. That was my point about FFXIV, there are more abilities than swtor in most cases, certainly more that are needed to execute your job properly. It's not a game where you ca just 'not use some abilities' I brought it up to counter the claim that I can't handle buttons. I enjoy that game, they pull the nr of abilities off, swtor def does not.

I only based this post around the complaints I've seen, your is the first I personally agree with and understand more now. If they prune reactive abilities like kick that's silly compared to some of the others. But your post does overall contradict some stuff I've seen so i guess I'll have to see for myself by logging in. Would be hilarious if they left all the bloat but took inconsequential abilities out.

Completely fair. Only thing I will say is invoking rapid FPS etc is a strawman, it's still total classic tab targeting as far as I can see. You're on point. By trying to please everyone they may please no one. Some of us like the old way and some a newer way, - I made this post because I believe the forum is biased toward one kind of player, the old school don't like change player.

Way too oversimplified. This may apply to defensive cooldowns specifically but the rotations are a mess so it's not just skip ability x, because it breaks the whole rotation and you're left with almost no output. In the end I'm still a gamer, I'll use multiple buttons I don't like because it has better outcomes, I'd rather get those outcomes with a rotation that is tighter and that I enjoy. I'd rather have saber reflect with more impact than have to weave in enure. I'd also hope these changes will bring more options for the core rotation, something that didn't exist at all before.

You can do that without death but not without everything taking ages. And again, it's a tradeoff, what players do you cater to in the end. i'm saying there is a player they are catering to, me, doesn't make either side wrong or right. From a business perspective is will more people like it vs not, a lot of dinosaurs here and they need to understand they are not the be all end all of this game.

It's a new era, for a game to be competitive or get better it has to change. Again people have different preferences but to capture subs like mine you can't stay 1999 everquest forever.

I don't think my point is invalid but I hear what you're saying and that's basically what I'm doing but have to do it solo, no one tolerates that approach in groups. I'd also like to kill stuff faster. Playing suboptimally will mean you feel less powerful and with many specs the gap between whack a mole 20 abilities and fun is just too wide.

Yeah but that's not fun though, it's not playing a game in a visually rich world anymore it's a hotbar game. I can play it too, but all gameplay involves the rotation vs actually enjoying class fantasy.

Greetings! I resubbed earlier than planned just to make this post. I need to state right away that I recognize opinions are valid even if I disagree with them, it's about what type of gameplay you enjoy and I respect that. However, it's very clear that many many individuals don't see that, they write arrogantly as if their opinion is the only one that matters and is 'obvious' and 'objective'. I feel the need to come here and show it's not that black and white, it's not a bunch of devs doing crazy things and taking your abilities away - there are actually gamers out there that this caters to and I'm one of them. Once again this is opinion it's not meant to convince you or say you're wrong, I'm only posting so you will see there are those of us who feel differently. I've spent thousands on this game and I'm coming back because of these changes or overall the strategic goal behind the changes. Enure and force freeze (or whatever it's called) are incredibly boring skills. These are relics of MMOs past, they only feel impactful in certain content (which everyone seems to forget can be rebalanced) and aren't conducive to fantasy at all. They were only added because other MMOs had similar skills. Thank god I won't have to use them any more just to pass certain content, instead I could just go saber reflect which actually feels impactful and fits the fantasy. Clearly so many of you see this as vital because you look at it in the context of current balance, you like to click lots of things and again i can respect that. I however want to be a Jedi, I want abilities to be flashy and support my class fantasy not just reduce damage taken by a % in a rotation vs a boss. To me swtor has become incredibly bloated, I ended up playing solo almost exclusively in the end so I could play the way I wanted and not have to play whack a mole with buttons that do nothing except increase your numbers in the log. To me that's not gameplay. I'd rather choose skills I like and have fewer skills so my fantasy isn't tainted by things I don't want to look at. To me it's more important that my Bounty hunter uses his pistol in a visual sense than that he keeps all his buttons for mathematical output. So if I ever play tank spec I use basic attack all the time even if it's inefficient because it looks so stupid if I don't. There are tons of players like me out there. Bit of a tangent but still. I couldn't be more excited about the dev teams plans, I wish they would have gone down this path long ago, I may not have unsubbed if they had. We don't all think alike guys, you will make better inroads giving feedback if you stop assuming that you're all correct and the devs are doing this for no reason. From a business perspective I guess it's all about how many like the changes vs how many don't. I wouldn't mind an option where you get to keep all your buttons with stats as they are and those players like me get to make a choice and thus get a buffed version of the chosen skill. maybe by opting out of enure I could get a second or two added to my saber reflect. Maybe by option out on some BH skills I can get a buffed basic attack. Either way if they backtrack to much on what they're doing I'm not coming back to the game, and I'm a player too just like all of you but my voice isn't as represented because most like me won't resub just to post in the forums.

Some good suggestions here but I feel a certain flair for actual customization is missing. Too much binary thinking of 'defense' vs 'dps'. I would hope these tactical items are more about changing game play flair than min maxing numbers in ops. I'd rather have tweaks that are 'cool' for general combat than dps or even permanent rotation changes. Some examples. 1. Dominant Force Lightning Force Lightning channels for twice as long, does 250% more damage, cooldown is doubled flair: damage increased by 25% for ever other skill on cooldown flair: channels until target is dead or Force Lightning damage increases by 25% and channel duration increases by 15% after casting lightning bolt / chain lighting. stacks 3 times. ?WHY? - well how fun would it be to actually throw FL in here and there as a single target finish off that last mob, this is the goal whether the numbers I made up are on point or not. FL becomes a flair finisher or even a rotational replacement for ST. - 2. Afflicting Bolt Lightning bolt now adds/refreshes affliction ?WHY? I hate casting affliction Just two examples

I admit, I am utterly amazed that anyone can enjoy ESO, especially if they've played other MMOs or TES games. All of the other games you mentioned I have enjoyed and preferred over ESO, it's literally the only MMO I played that I found no value in (Although TERA just had no soul, great combat though). I wish you the best of luck though, suggest you keep an eye on Wildstar and EQNext, those are likely to be the next good MMOs.