Jedi Guardian Feedback

[matthaxian]

I'm not gonna lie, reading these changes is heartbreaking.

As a player with 10,000+ hours invested in this game, It feels like you're asking me to choose which one of my kids I want to keep.

But I will do my very best to be constructive.

The addition of Loadouts is maybe the single best QOL improvement ever made to the game and I am so excited for it and all of the hours of gearswapping it will save me.

Please also make it clear to us that Utilities will be going away to be replaced by this new system and what you mean by "AP". Is that a new catchall term for class resource pools?

 

Vigilance/Vengeance has been my favorite spec to play in any video game for many years now because of how smooth the rotation is and how well rounded the mix of single target/aoe/survivability is.

It's not going to be the same after these changes. It will be a shell of its former self.

 

Please look back through the history of combat changes you have made in the game and why,

and realize it took a lot of hard work to get to the very good place you are currently in when it comes to both class balance and rotations, and don't underestimate the intelligence of your player base and the ability of new players who want to learn to learn.

 

~Level 20 - Choose one passive (applies to Focused Burst)

[A] Zenith - Increases critical chance after using Focused Burst

Focusing Strike - Focused Burst deals 15% more damage.

Unstable Focus - Focused Burst now hits in AoE.

 

This is an example of something you did right. You give us the option of a single target damage buff, an AOE damage buff, or a crit buff.

 

~Level 15 - Choose one ability or passive

Blade Burst - Blade Storm becomes AoE and slows.

Saber Throw - Gain the Saber Throw Ability.

[A] Energy Barrage - Adds Energy Damage to Blade Barrage and it now immobilizes the target.

~Level 35 - Choose one ability or passive

[A] Focused Mediation - Dealing damage with Force Energy generates AP.

Awe - Gain the Awe Ability.

Critical Conditions - Critical hits with Force Energy reduce the Cooldown of Combat Focus.

~Level 70 - Choose one Ability

Saber Reflect

[A] Blade Blitz

Enure

 

These are examples of things you did wrong. Making us choose between abilites is bad, but it also is going to seriously break endgame content for both PVPers and PVErs.

Also, utility choices that affect resource pools and cooldowns for dps are a bad idea in general because they break rotations or change the way they need to be played.

 

I get that you want to streamline things and reduce ability bloat, which allows you to add more abilities in the future.

Guardian is one of the least ability bloated classes, when compared to sentinel/gunslinger/commando.

I think making us choose between abilities is the wrong way to go. Its true dps and healers have too much survivability in pvp and way too many stuns and slows. If you want to prune one defensive ability, I get it, to make us choose one of 3 is too much.

 

 

I think there are better ways to accomplish this.

1. Make certain abilities discipline-specific. Example: only focus gets slash, only defense gets retaliation.

Vig gets vig thrust, focus gets force sweep, defense gets a buffed cyclone slash.

There is already a lot of this baked in like hew/dispatch and vigilant thrust/force sweep that should not be changed.

2. Roll "utility abilities" into other abilities as passives.

Chilling scream can become a passive of force sweep/cyc slash/vig thrust. Force Leap can be used on an ally from 0-30 Meters to replace guardian leap.

3. There are utility abilities across each class which you can't remove without badly breaking content..

These abilities are all also generally standardized across all classes and the ability to keybind them all to the same key across classes is a great benefit:

1. Interrupt

2. Stun Breaker

3. Threat Drop

4. Resource Generator

5. Hard Stun

6. Soft Stun/soft AOE stun

7. Movement boost

 

There are also abilities that are iconic to the advanced class, like saber throw and saber reflect that should remain.

 

I think a binary approach is preferable to giving us 3 choices because it sets things up better for you to standardize across classes. I would use this meta for a "binary choice approach":

1. Single target passive OR AOE passive (both for dps/tank and heal).

2. movement passive OR damage mitigation passive

3. (PVP-specific) Attack passive (root/slow etc) OR survivability passive (root/slow/stun immunity)

This is important for pvp balance, if you want to be that jerk globalling people with roots stuns and slows you should be a bit of a glass cannon too.

4. Offensive cooldown reduction OR defensive cooldown reduction

 

You can standardize these across classes as you make your other builds.

 

Please, I cannot stress this enough, do not make us choose between abilities in our path,

Imagine the confusion new tanks/heals/dps will have being asked to change their spec for every single fight of a fp/ops because of a change in mechanics. You will be making things much more complicated, not less.

 

I can live without enure and even saber ward but please dont touch my rotation, or iconic abilities like saber throw (very important to stop caps in pvp and pull mobs in PVE), saber reflect and focused defense.

 

Get rid of slash for Defense and make riposte have no CD by default. give 10% dam increase on riposte for the flawless riposte 4 pc set bonus instead.

[sipidous]

I was excited to hear about load-outs and the prospect of a year-long 10th anniversary SWTOR celebration, and I see the potential in the new advanced class arrangement. I've been playing since launch and like many others here, I have no doubt been playing more than I would ever admit. But if dumbing today's advanced classes and the gameplay of the last 10 years down to a 1-2-3-4 rotation is the 7.0 future of the game, then I'm afraid the game will no longer be for me.

 

I wonder: why make such sweeping and game-breaking changes, and why make them now? Why not make minor adjustments relative to 6.x, implement features we've been asking for for months/years, or even just polish the game by fixing some of the myriad of bugs in abilities/missions/items/gear/etc.? Please don't ruin the game.

[Elmviolin]

This new abilities set up is insupportable. We are missing almost all of our dcds and that makes it nearly impossible to dot successfully. I would rather have too many abilities and not enough time to use them then too few abilities and too much time.

[phalczen]

Just to append to my earlier statements: I have been on the receiving end of a “streamlining” in a Star Wars MMO, and it certainly did the opposite of making meaningful impactful choices, at least at the beginning and for several years after. I would have thought the industry had learned from SWG and its NGE and realized you cannot make such radical changes in a game that is this far in its life cycle.

 

Whenever you think about changes to core systems like this, you can’t just consider the nightmare raiders or top 96 ranked. You have to consider how the experience will change for a regular player, who plays many many content areas at end game, but is very content with his 16 alts in their chosen advanced classes, disciplines, set bonuses, tactical items, and utilities. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that plus or minus a couple of abilities here and there, or changed utilities, the flow of combat for my characters should not change much, if at all, should I choose not to take advantage of the combat styles system and instead stick with what I KNOW WELL. Especially not after 10 years of playing some of these characters. Everything I have read thus far is that people’s Guardians feel radically different.

 

Do not confuse enforced limitations as encouraging meaningful choices. If a plane is crashing I can choose to stay where I am, or I can choose to put on a parachute. That is a meaningful impactful choice but it doesn’t justify sabotaging the airplane in the first place.

[Savej]

Testing PvP wouldn't help much either way as you'd be playing against an overweight of Guardians. Even if any other classes are present, you'll be fighting classes that haven't been "nerfed" yet.

 

It wouldn't be -very- useful but I'd get a feel for the changes/spec if I used them in wzs. Doing dailies on Onderon not so much.

[ZionHalcyon]

Then they need to explain just a tiny bit why all these new class ability choices are a thing. Why do the classes need new ability choices at certain levels. Don't give us the condescending "This is super high level" (ie it's too big brained for you to understand the macrodetails)

 

Yeah....uh ...high level...I do not think it means what you think it means... /inigoMontoya

[Dimetro-don]

Having now looked at all 6 of the load outs provided and done some testing in an open pvp area both 1v1 and 2v1, while I was on tank, this is awful. I was looking at this as "I don't have all my defensive abilities I wont be able to tank as well."

 

But after this pvp test, I never lost 1v1 even when I was not trying and even messing up on purpose or just letting them hit me a bit, while they were dps focus, and in the 2v1 I killed 1 and got the other, dps vigilance, to 2% health before I died.

 

This honestly nerfed the dps far more then it did the tank, as in pvp dps will die far too fast to make a difference and tanks will stand tall above all.

 

All of our interrupts and cc breaks are gone, lowering the viability in even pve content.

 

I understand that the guardian, especially the tank have a lot of abilities, but this is not what any of us imagined when we were told we'd have more control of our characters combat style. And honestly this is one of the worst case scenarios for me. I raid weekly right now and I can't imagine being able to pull off some of the boss fights in story mode let alone higher difficulties.

[butterflylover]

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

It feels like a cheap imitation, like a knock off version of a main brand product you pick up from the store. It feels incomplete and severely lacking, so few abilities I have to just stand there for a few seconds clicking on the enemy because I have nothing better to do while waiting for CD's. So no it does not feel like any class should let alone a Focus Guardian which would normally always have something to do.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

It feels like you gutted it, you took away so many abilities to implement a "Customizable system" that from the sounds of it is a straight Rip of Retail World of Warcrafts talent tree. It limits players and doesn't offer anything new it just takes what they used to have and locks it behind a "choice" to make players feel like they are special when in the end there is only really one proper option because it will dominate in their respective fields.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

I think in the tests me on a Focus (B) and a friend on Vigilant (B) fighting a Defense (A) we won by a hair. And the tank wasn't even trying, we just simply do not have the abilities to deal the damage to his defense. Fighting other enemies there is so much down time it is crazy, "Oh my rotation is done, time to go put on some tea and watch a quick netflix show before I can restart."

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

I absolutely do NOT enjoy this in the slightest, having been a pretty frequent player and a huge fan of Guardian/Juggernaut this is nothing like what it was before and none of the changes have been good. I hope you all can sort this out and listen to the community and realize making the game more like WoW is not the way to go.

Edited July 10, 2021 by butterflylover

[captainbladejk]

First I'm going to say that I have been here with this game since closed beta and that I am a founder in this game. I have seen every patch and change you guys have made, some that were absolutely amazing content, and a few bits that weren't so good. In the nearly 10 years I've been playing this game, I never felt the need to come onto these forums for stuff like this as I saw the game going in a mostly positive direction. I no longer see the game going in a positive direction and see myself no longer playing this game I have loved for nearly 10 years if this stuff goes live as is right now. In fact I am dreading this expansion based on what I am seeing.

 

-Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

No it does not feel like a Jedi Guardian. First up there is the unnecessary removal of quite a few abilities from my character, such as the removal of my interrupt on my tank. It feels like I've been asked to rebuild an entire car engine but only been given a single sized rusted out wrench, that's going to break the first time I try to use it, and told to have the engine rebuilt in 5 minutes. The character feels empty and out of place, like a fish being asked to climb a tree. The abilities and the like that made me feel like a powerful guardian and protector are no longer there. The character feels like little more than a glorified NPC with the illusion of actual choice.

 

-Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

Yes. The entire rotation went from feeling like a well oiled machine that can deliver extra power when needed, to a broken down engine ready for the scrap heap that can't move faster than the speed of smell. There is plenty of dead space where I'm just doing nothing or waiting on things to cool down, where as before I could throw in an off ability or two so it doesn't seem so dead. On the live server, I may not use every ability I have in every fight, but this doesn't mean the ability never sees use, or that the ability is somehow bad. It simply means that ability wasn't needed for that particular fight.

 

-What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

My initial thoughts are that I'm wasting my time playing this character. If this were to hit the live servers as is right now, I may as well move anything of value off my guardians and delete them. The toon feels like he's swinging a wet noodle, then just staring at the enemy for a long period of time before he tries to swing again, never actually getting anything done. At this juncture, Guardians may as well be deleted from the game since they will no longer useful for anything beyond cleaning toilets.

 

-How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

Right now on the live servers, this is my second most played class next to my shadow tank, and has been for the nearly 10 years I've played the game. If what's on the PTS is any indication of the final product, I will be retiring my guardians and will not be playing them again. On live the character feels like a true Guardian of peace and a protector. On PTS the character feels like someone putting on a costume and playing with a flashlight. The abilities and feel that made the character feel like a guardian of the peace as described by Obi-Wan no longer exist.

 

-If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

My feedback overall would be to completely scrap this system and go back to the drawing board, because this is an insult to players that I'm witnessing on the PTS and is FAR FAR below the standard of content and gameplay I have come to expect from SWTOR and from Bioware. For years I have held this game in high praise for its story content, and gameplay. It's been something I can pick up and play solo, or do group content with friends. If this goes live as is right now, I would be embarrassed to say I ever recommended this game with the absolutely subpar and pitiful product that I'm seeing on PTS.

 

As is right now it feels like you're trying to dumb the game and the classes down to little more than a 5 button type situation, and trying to turn this game into a Diablo clone with a Star Wars skin on it. If I wanted to play a game where I only have 5 buttons to pick from, I would go play Diablo. Right now it feels like my wallet was stolen while I had $100 in it, and the person who stole it is offering to give me back $10, and pretending like they're doing me a favor, even though my wallet is still gone, and i'm out $90. It feels like some of the uniqueness that set SWTOR apart from other games is gone. I've not always agreed with some of the decisions that have occurred in game, as most of the things I didn't agree with have been minor annoyances. However this is the first time that I've legitimately been angry with this game and I am strongly considering leaving this game behind for good. This is an insult to long time players and new players alike, and is FAR FAR below the standard of what a Bioware game should be.

 

I am angry because for years Bioware has been what I considered the golden standard of what story telling with games should be, and this does not meet that standard. I am angry because I know you guys can do better than this. I have enjoyed this game for many years, and I would like to keep enjoying it for many more.

 

Furthermore, choosing between passive abilities is one thing we've done since launch and is nothing new. Being able to use the weapon(s) we want is also something cool. For that matter a Jedi Sage using Sith Sorc abilities isn't that large of a stretch either, as it's the same concept, but simply with different names and visuals. However what I find wholly disturbing is that we could potentially see a Juggernaut running around with Assassin type abilities, or a Trooper using Smuggler type abilities. At that point there is little to no need to create alts or have different classes at all, further destroying some of the uniqueness of the game.

 

In conclusion I find what I'm seeing on the PTS to be a cruel joke and an insult to players. I'm a firm believer in the saying, if it isn't broke don't fix it. Being able to use weapons we like and similar is a welcome addition, having to give up half our abilities and the things that make each class unique is not. Enhancements to better the classes can be made without having to completely remake who and what they are. I am no longer excited for this expansion and I am actually dreading it as it means the death of my characters and potentially an end to my time in a game I have enjoyed for nearly 10 years. This is so far below the standard of what a Bioware product should be that it's frankly insulting, because you guys can do better.

[casirabit]

Vigilance Sustained DPS (Loadout A)

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

For me yes as I have always played the Viglance spec on the guardian as I prefer playing DPS. It plays like my DPS guardian that I am used to playing.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

Honestly, I think there are a few things missing but I am hoping that you will add those when you add the additonal testing for the guardian.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

From what I tested I had no problem but: (a) I went and got the same gear I have on my DPS on live and then went to Odesson and got the items I need to get the 306 mods so with that said I had no trouble when doing some of the missions. I will test it further this weekend on specific weeklies that I do to see how it does compared to the my original one on live.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

For me yes I am still enjoying this class but again I played the Sustained DPS. (Also note: I do not play pvp and will not so how this functions in pvp I don't know as it is not something I will ever do)

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

I really don't play the other disciplines but from my understanding there is a problem with the tank discipline and this needs to be looked into considering that the tank needs to be able to keep enemies off the healers in the higher flashpoints and operations.

 

Below is a list of (a) my spec on live (b) the spec I am using on PTS © items missing (d) new items

 

A. Jedi Guardian-Vigilance (on Live now)

Blade Barrage

Blade Storm

Cyclone Slash

Force Clarity

Force Kick

Force Leap

Force Might

Force Stasis

Introspection

Resolute

Saber Ward

Slash

Strike

Blade Turning

Challenging Call

Combat Focus

Enure

Focused Striking

Force Push

Guard

Guardian Leap

Overhead Sash

Plasma Brand

Riposte

Saber Reflect

Saber Throw

Singe Saber Mastery

Sundering Strike

Taunt

Vigilant Throw

Visionary

Whirling Blade

 

B. Jedi Guardian-Vigilance Sustained DPS (Loadout A)

Blade Barrage

Blade Storm

Blade Turning

Burning Storm

Burn Master

Combat Focus

Commanding Awe

Effluence

Enure

Focused Striking

Force Leap

Force Might

Force Push

Force Stasis

Guard

Introspection

Master Focus

Overhead Sash

Peaceful Focus

Plasma Brand

Riposte

Saber Ward

Single Saber Mastery

Slash

Smoldering Saber

Taunt

Vigilance

Vigilant Thrust

Visionary

Whirling Blade

 

 

C. Missing: (9)

Awe

Blade Blitz

Force Clarity

Force Kick

Focused Defense

Resolute

Guardian Leap

Freezing Force

Saber Throw

 

D. New: (7)

Burning Storm

Burn Master

Commanding Awe

Effluence

Master Focus

Peaceful Focus

Smoldering Saber

Edited July 10, 2021 by casirabit

[Nee-Elder]

very wel said Nee-Elder !

 

Thanks , although i just sure hope BioWare not only read my post but also feels the same about as you did

 

I'm trying very hard to reserve too much of my QQ'ing until at least a few more weeks of PTS testing & feedback (as well as, hopefully, some further replies, explanations, & adjustments from the BioWare Developers) .

 

---

First I'm going to say that I have been here with this game since closed beta and that I am a founder in this game.

 

. I'm a firm believer in the saying, if it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

Being able to use weapons we like and similar is a welcome addition, having to give up half our abilities and the things that make each class unique is not..

 

Nice post overall , but especially wanted to QFE those parts ^^ since i'm a beta/founder too

 

./fingers-crossed we're all just jumping to sky-is-falling conclusions too soon and BioWare Devs come in on Monday after reading all these PTS threads and settle us players down with the opposite of what we're all dreading

Edited July 10, 2021 by Nee-Elder

[ZionHalcyon]

Just to append to my earlier statements: I have been on the receiving end of a “streamlining” in a Star Wars MMO, and it certainly did the opposite of making meaningful impactful choices, at least at the beginning and for several years after. I would have thought the industry had learned from SWG and its NGE and realized you cannot make such radical changes in a game that is this far in its life cycle.

 

Whenever you think about changes to core systems like this, you can’t just consider the nightmare raiders or top 96 ranked. You have to consider how the experience will change for a regular player, who plays many many content areas at end game, but is very content with his 16 alts in their chosen advanced classes, disciplines, set bonuses, tactical items, and utilities. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that plus or minus a couple of abilities here and there, or changed utilities, the flow of combat for my characters should not change much, if at all, should I choose not to take advantage of the combat styles system and instead stick with what I KNOW WELL. Especially not after 10 years of playing some of these characters. Everything I have read thus far is that people’s Guardians feel radically different.

 

Do not confuse enforced limitations as encouraging meaningful choices. If a plane is crashing I can choose to stay where I am, or I can choose to put on a parachute. That is a meaningful impactful choice but it doesn’t justify sabotaging the airplane in the first place.

 

As a fellow nge survivor, I understand your hesitation, but you can't equate the two.

 

The nge didn't just remove class complexity. It removed customization from the whole game.

 

What bioware is doing now, is actually needed. The ability glut is a barrier for entry and a common complaint of many newer players. As I said before, I expected pvp and raiders to complain because of having to relearn rotations.

 

The issue here, is that the abilities given need to feel worthwhile and different, but still achieve the goal of the class (DPS, tank, crowd control, heals).

 

High level players have high level expectations, and this was kind of thrown out there with little guidance.

 

I think the devs have the right idea. But they balanced this first go round poorly and failed to properly set expectations.

[captainbladejk]

Thanks , although i just sure hope BioWare not only read my post but also feels the same about as you did

 

I'm trying very hard to reserve too much of my QQ'ing until at least a few more weeks of PTS testing & feedback (as well as, hopefully, some further replies, explanations, & adjustments from the BioWare Developers) .

 

---

 

 

Nice post overall , but especially wanted to QFE those parts ^^ since i'm a beta/founder too

 

./fingers-crossed we're all just jumping to sky-is-falling conclusions too soon and BioWare Devs come in on Monday after reading all these PTS threads and settle us players down with the opposite of what we're all dreading

Believe me I hope I'm wrong, but I was there during the ability purges that happened over in World of Warcraft when they tried this same stunt. They pruned so many abilities they actually had to bring alot of them back just to keep people playing. I don't want to see SWTOR get to the same state that WoW is in, but I see that happening if they keep going with this mess. So far based off what we see here, I'm absolutely dreading this expansion

[sirytachi]

First I'm going to say that I have been here with this game since closed beta and that I am a founder in this game. I have seen every patch and change you guys have made, some that were absolutely amazing content, and a few bits that weren't so good. In the nearly 10 years I've been playing this game, I never felt the need to come onto these forums for stuff like this as I saw the game going in a mostly positive direction. I no longer see the game going in a positive direction and see myself no longer playing this game I have loved for nearly 10 years if this stuff goes live as is right now. In fact I am dreading this expansion based on what I am seeing.

 

-Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

No it does not feel like a Jedi Guardian. First up there is the unnecessary removal of quite a few abilities from my character, such as the removal of my interrupt on my tank. It feels like I've been asked to rebuild an entire car engine but only been given a single sized rusted out wrench, that's going to break the first time I try to use it, and told to have the engine rebuilt in 5 minutes. The character feels empty and out of place, like a fish being asked to climb a tree. The abilities and the like that made me feel like a powerful guardian and protector are no longer there. The character feels like little more than a glorified NPC with the illusion of actual choice.

 

-Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

Yes. The entire rotation went from feeling like a well oiled machine that can deliver extra power when needed, to a broken down engine ready for the scrap heap that can't move faster than the speed of smell. There is plenty of dead space where I'm just doing nothing or waiting on things to cool down, where as before I could throw in an off ability or two so it doesn't seem so dead. On the live server, I may not use every ability I have in every fight, but this doesn't mean the ability never sees use, or that the ability is somehow bad. It simply means that ability wasn't needed for that particular fight.

 

-What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

My initial thoughts are that I'm wasting my time playing this character. If this were to hit the live servers as is right now, I may as well move anything of value off my guardians and delete them. The toon feels like he's swinging a wet noodle, then just staring at the enemy for a long period of time before he tries to swing again, never actually getting anything done. At this juncture, Guardians may as well be deleted from the game since they will no longer useful for anything beyond cleaning toilets.

 

-How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

Right now on the live servers, this is my second most played class next to my shadow tank, and has been for the nearly 10 years I've played the game. If what's on the PTS is any indication of the final product, I will be retiring my guardians and will not be playing them again. On live the character feels like a true Guardian of peace and a protector. On PTS the character feels like someone putting on a costume and playing with a flashlight. The abilities and feel that made the character feel like a guardian of the peace as described by Obi-Wan no longer exist.

 

-If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

My feedback overall would be to completely scrap this system and go back to the drawing board, because this is an insult to players that I'm witnessing on the PTS and is FAR FAR below the standard of content and gameplay I have come to expect from SWTOR and from Bioware. For years I have held this game in high praise for its story content, and gameplay. It's been something I can pick up and play solo, or do group content with friends. If this goes live as is right now, I would be embarrassed to say I ever recommended this game with the absolutely subpar and pitiful product that I'm seeing on PTS.

 

As is right now it feels like you're trying to dumb the game and the classes down to little more than a 5 button type situation, and trying to turn this game into a Diablo clone with a Star Wars skin on it. If I wanted to play a game where I only have 5 buttons to pick from, I would go play Diablo. Right now it feels like my wallet was stolen while I had $100 in it, and the person who stole it is offering to give me back $10, and pretending like they're doing me a favor, even though my wallet is still gone, and i'm out $90. It feels like some of the uniqueness that set SWTOR apart from other games is gone. I've not always agreed with some of the decisions that have occurred in game, as most of the things I didn't agree with have been minor annoyances. However this is the first time that I've legitimately been angry with this game and I am strongly considering leaving this game behind for good. This is an insult to long time players and new players alike, and is FAR FAR below the standard of what a Bioware game should be.

 

I am angry because for years Bioware has been what I considered the golden standard of what story telling with games should be, and this does not meet that standard. I am angry because I know you guys can do better than this. I have enjoyed this game for many years, and I would like to keep enjoying it for many more.

 

Furthermore, choosing between passive abilities is one thing we've done since launch and is nothing new. Being able to use the weapon(s) we want is also something cool. For that matter a Jedi Sage using Sith Sorc abilities isn't that large of a stretch either, as it's the same concept, but simply with different names and visuals. However what I find wholly disturbing is that we could potentially see a Juggernaut running around with Assassin type abilities, or a Trooper using Smuggler type abilities. At that point there is little to no need to create alts or have different classes at all, further destroying some of the uniqueness of the game.

 

In conclusion I find what I'm seeing on the PTS to be a cruel joke and an insult to players. I'm a firm believer in the saying, if it isn't broke don't fix it. Being able to use weapons we like and similar is a welcome addition, having to give up half our abilities and the things that make each class unique is not. Enhancements to better the classes can be made without having to completely remake who and what they are. I am no longer excited for this expansion and I am actually dreading it as it means the death of my characters and potentially an end to my time in a game I have enjoyed for nearly 10 years. This is so far below the standard of what a Bioware product should be that it's frankly insulting, because you guys can do better.

 

 

 

 

I agree with every line written in this post

[captainbladejk]

As a fellow nge survivor, I understand your hesitation, but you can't equate the two.

 

The nge didn't just remove class complexity. It removed customization from the whole game.

 

What bioware is doing now, is actually needed. The ability glut is a barrier for entry and a common complaint of many newer players. As I said before, I expected pvp and raiders to complain because of having to relearn rotations.

 

The issue here, is that the abilities given need to feel worthwhile and different, but still achieve the goal of the class (DPS, tank, crowd control, heals).

 

High level players have high level expectations, and this was kind of thrown out there with little guidance.

 

I think the devs have the right idea. But they balanced this first go round poorly and failed to properly set expectations.

I'm sorry but heaven forbid people actually have to learn what their abilities do and have to actually take a moment to read what they do. They've already removed a ton of abilities before, they don't need to remove anymore. As much as I hate to say it, if someone only want to push 4-5 buttons and call it a day, Diablo is down the hall and to the left.

 

I have played every class and spec in this game and this is far more than simply a PVP issue and goes towards what has made the game unique. It's unreasonable for folks to expect to be experts on their first day learning to play a game. Also in today's day and age there are tons of resources people can look up to learn how to play a game if they're serious about it. As I pointed out previously, I was there for the WoW ability prunings, and trust me you don't want to go down this road. Simply because an ability isn't used in every fight does NOT mean it's a bad ability or never gets used, and is NOT a valid reason for removing said ability from the game. It got so bad over in WoW they had to bring abilities back just so certain classes felt like there was some depth to them. For a time Arcane mages only had to push 2 buttons for a full DPS rotation. You don't need a spell book the size of War and Peace to have character depth and uniqueness, but you need more than 5 buttons. Otherwise you end up with a cheap Diablo clone using a Star Wars skin.

 

As is right now tanks do not have their interrupt and I am missing several abilities that I should have baseline. What you fail to see is that they're basically stealing abilities from you that you've had baseline for years, and then letting you pick from 2-3 abilities to get one back, and calling it new and improved. As I said in my previous post, it's like someone stealing my wallet that had $100 in it, offering to give me back $10 or my social security card, then acting like they've done me a favor. Yet in reality I'm still losing $100 and my wallet; or i'm losing $90, my wallet, and my social security card. That's not a choice, but an illusion of choice. You can't have uniqueness if you keep giving away everything unique or removing it.

 

If folks are having an issue learning their classes, there are plenty of people who are willing to help if they need it. I've spent many an hour helping folks learn their stuff. However if they're not willing to listen or learn, no amount of help will ever benefit them and will only be a detriment.

 

EDIT: for the record I want people to be able to play and enjoy the game. But in order to do that, there needs to be some uniqueness there for them to enjoy, or the game becomes another flavor of the month game that'll be dead in a week.

Edited July 10, 2021 by captainbladejk

[Sounders_Fan]

does this feel like a jedi guardian; in short NO. it feel incomplete. feels like what a low level guardian feels like when leveling on the live server.

 

do I enjoy it; absolutely not. this isn't a fun class play as currently represented on PTS. and if the other classes are revised in a similar manner, this will cease to be fun game to play.

 

what is on the PTS currently feels like a waste of time to test and judge; because without knowing what changes are coming to other classes it is impossible to judge if this is a good change. however, this feels like a huge step in the wrong direction.

 

i play SWTOR for 2 reason, star wars and that fact it is NOT World of Warcraft. making the same decisions WOW dev team made is the wrong direction in my opinion.

[MordredSJT]

As a fellow nge survivor, I understand your hesitation, but you can't equate the two.

 

The nge didn't just remove class complexity. It removed customization from the whole game.

 

What bioware is doing now, is actually needed. The ability glut is a barrier for entry and a common complaint of many newer players. As I said before, I expected pvp and raiders to complain because of having to relearn rotations.

 

The issue here, is that the abilities given need to feel worthwhile and different, but still achieve the goal of the class (DPS, tank, crowd control, heals).

 

High level players have high level expectations, and this was kind of thrown out there with little guidance.

 

I think the devs have the right idea. But they balanced this first go round poorly and failed to properly set expectations.

 

As another fellow NGE survivor who has played this game since launch...

 

I'm ok with cutting down on the number of necessary abilities. However, you need to do it in a way that actually retains the overall functionality that we have within the current system. Unless they are doing a complete redesign of the fundamentals of combat in the game...which...yeah... Combat Upgrade, that went well too.

 

I'm sorry, but if I load up a new expansion to a game I've played for a long time and I am suddenly lacking part of my existing toolkit, and feel less powerful and useful, that is not going to be a good experience for me. You can't expect me to be happy as a Defense Guardian if I'm forced to choose between added mobility (which was given to me in a previous expansion), a reflect (which used to be exclusive to our class, but was then passed out to a bunch of others), and a temporary hp pool...also, potentially not having saber throw (which has been part of the class since day one). I'll feel gimped, and not because I won't have as many buttons to push on my fancy MMO mouse. I'll feel gimped because there will be situations that will arise where I would have used those abilities in the past and they will not be available to me anymore.

 

Also, as a long time subscriber, this just further fuels my frustrations with the seemingly schizophrenic design philosophies from one expansion to the next. I get that the turnover in the dev team and leadership will do that...but last expansion we got a move towards a kind of horizontal progression with the gear sets and tacticals as opposed to just pumping up stat numbers that just bump into diminishing returns most of the time anyway. Now, first appearances are that a lot of that is getting rolled into this redesign of the combat classes. So, instead of taking the already existing foundation and building on the things that work while discarding or minimizing things that don't...we get another sudden left turn and we'll just see what happens next. We could have had some new and interesting gear sets or tacticals that could truly alter the style of gameplay (go look at ESO and all the diverse gear set effects they have and use your Star Wars imagination a little), but instead I will get to "choose" passives or abilities that will inevitably not be an actual choice. One of the paths will be optimal or necessary to tank, and that's the one I will choose, or I won't be a very good tank.

 

TLDR: don't give your players cool toys to play with and then yank them away...and if you do, don't be surprised when they stop having fun and leave

[Eriathwin]

To me, the focus guardian (A) has does feel like a jedi knight, as it should. The abilities are watered down compared to how I've normally played my focus guardian, but overall the rotation is mostly smooth. A couple key abilities, such as saberthrow being the minimum should be something for every choice. It's a key ability to help start build focus (for example). Otherwise, the playstyle is good.

[YodaMFC]

So my main on the live servers is a Jedi Guardian, so I tried to recreate my character by picking Vigilance Path A. Here are my thoughts:

 

Q: Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not

A: In terms of rotation, yes. But with the Jedi Knight abilities missing it felt very weird.

 

Q: Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

A: As I mentioned earlier, the lack of cooldowns like Resolute, Force Kick and Awe was a bit of a let down. Force Clarity is also missing. Very strange to play a DPC spec without a proper offensive cooldown.

 

Q: What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

A: Having just two defensive cooldowns at most doesn't seem very effective. If you're fighting a tough enemy and you already used your Saber Ward and Enure you're RIP. You can't even kite properly because you don't have Blade Blitz because you picked Enure and if you're slowed you can't even use your stun breaker because you guys apparently removed it.

 

Q: How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

A: On Live it's my favorite. It's fun doing flashpoints and warzones but I also like him for being such a good solo class. For example I really enjoyed soloing the Star Fortresses to get the "The One and Only" title because it required me to play as efficiently as possible, but with all the limitations due to the missing abilities and having to choose between Blade Blitz, Enure and Saber Reflect things like that aren't going to be fun to do anymore in my opinion.

 

General Feedback:

As of right now, I am very disappointed. It doesn't feel like the teased great customization experience at all. It feels more restricted than before. My suggestion: Don't reduce the number of abilities. Instead, just add more options for certain "ability categories". For Example: Let players choose between Blade Blitz or some other movement spell like a second Leap but don't limit us to having either a movement spell or a second defensive cooldown. That's not very fun.

[ceickerman]

Will we be able to level from 1 to see how this thing looks from the git?

[Silvio_O]

Please don't remove Preparation utility. This ability brings so much fun in solo gameplay in open world.

[The_Hightower]

I refer to Guardian tank.

 

"Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not."

As an emasculated Guardian perhaps.

 

top: current skills in bar, mid and bottom: 7.0 layouts

 

missing:

- Blade Blitz in both 7.0 layouts, according to the spoiler, it appears that having only one of Blade Blitz, Enure or Saber Reflect is possible;

- Awe in both layouts, according to the spoiler it appears possible to select this on Guardian tank, but other skill(s)/passive(s) will need to be sacrificed therefor; Awe still remains a defensive CD for Guardian tanks: Awe;

- Saber throw, again according to the spoiler it appears possible to have that skill, when sacrificing others or passives;

- As regards interrupt, stun break, dispatch, freezing force and force clarity, I assume that these skills have simply been forgotten; BUT(!) what about the speed buff to freezing force (currently a utility)

 

"Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?"

dispatch and saber throw (focus generation!) is missing; furthermore, saber throw is a viable range filler in case staying in melee range of the target is not possible due to voids etc.

 

freezing force and force clarity: I assume these skills return? Otherwise, they are definitely missing

 

defensive CDs are significantly reduced... Having to select between Enure, Blade Blitz and Saber Reflect is defintiely trash...

 

for example, currently Brontes nim final phase (after both hands are gone), Guardian tank was able to kill spheres with low amount of stacks using saber reflect, blade blitz AND(!) enure (if using fulminating defense set)...

 

Not having Enure makes Fulminating defense and flawless riposte set useless...

 

7.0: use shadow tanks for Brontes? Maybe the same problems in case they are ripped down in the same manner (which is to be expected).

 

"What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?"

with two of three defensive CDs lacking (cf. above) and the need to sacrifice skills/passives for Awe, the effectiveness as tank will be significantly reduced...

 

"How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?"

 

To be polite: I'M *********** PISSED OFF!

 

Casual players currently make mistakes in their rotation and will still do them even in case the available skills are reduced and utilities are eliminated (which seems to be the case due to the spoiler). Furthermore, they will still make mistakes when selecting between the three possibilities at levels 15, 20, 30, 35, 50, 60, 70 and 80, as they now do when selecting their utilities.

 

Skilled players (i.e., nim/Mastermode players) are deprived of using all current, i.e., pre-7.0 skills of the class as the fight demands.

 

Furthermore, ripping tanks (and DPS(!)) of defensive CDs punishes the healers (as the tanks and DPS will take more damage), or is it planned to simplify the operations as well?

 

"If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it."

 

Guardian tank, cf. above.

[Death-Hammer]

After more testing, I'm still very unhappy. You seem to advertize more choices but nobody was expecting those choices to be what they are. The choices being offered are the current Advanced classes being cut in half and you making the choice of which to play. The biggest problem is everything now feels incomplete. How are you supposed to solo anything. There are no words for the level of disappointment I feel with these changes.

[Mubrak]

Not sure what the point of this test run even is. You picked the class that has many abilities that seem to exist twice, so is this the prime candidate for ability-pruning or will it feel even worse on other classes?

 

Do you want a measure of how bad the feedback will be, before you put any more work/money into new UI and stuff? Then yeah. First: wise choice. Second: very bad feedback. Grrrr.

 

If the changes are already set in stone, then tell us your design philosophy, and present a class when its complete, and we can actually make our own ability choices.

 

 

From what I get, you're removing the base class abilities, divide them among disciplines and make us chose between them. But some classes already lost a lot of abilities in the past. Are you remembering old skills? Will there be a way to get Unload back on a Powertech? Phasewalk on an Assassin, Flyby on a Scoundrel? Flamethrower on a Merc? Maybe even bring back stuff like Slice Droid that was completely removed?

 

 

Does it feel like a guardian?

 

Playing a jugg, but not as a main, it took a while to identify a random bunch of abilities thrown at me, having to figure out whether I'm not finding something, or you removed it by intend or accidentally.

 

Essential stuff like interrupt and stunbreak is missing, I doubt you are reworking all existing encounters so that must be a bug, yes? The base dummy-rotation feels the same, but what makes the class is not the rotation but the defensive abilities, mobility options and stylish moves. So yeah, it technically still is a guardian, but lacks some of the flair that distinguishes the class from others. But well, you could say it feels more like a "combat style" now, than an actual class.

 

The question is will you add class-identity abilities on top of what is being tested here. Will a Guardian-Style Consular play any different than a Guardian-Style Knight?

Edited July 10, 2021 by Mubrak

[Mcboyo]

Keep in mind that my answers may not be as accurate as others who have submitted feedback due to my lack of experience playing as a Jedi Guardian, but I have tried my best to give an honest opinion after doing some dailies on Onderon.

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

 

From what I have seen after playing a Vigilance (A) Jedi Guardian on the PTS, it feels fine and I like the more streamlined rotation. It's important that you adjust future content to the pruning because players will die more and deal less damage without the additional defensive and offensive cooldowns to assist them.

 

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

 

Definitely. We need a way to interrupt and break out of CC because playing MMOs without doing so is almost impossible.

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

 

They seem to deal a decent amount of damage and so far I have no problem killing enemies. The variety of AOE you get is nice and there isn't much bloat for my rotation, unlike Live.

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

 

I enjoyed playing a Sentinel on Live and they are similar in rotation, so yes I've been having fun trying out the new Jedi Guardian. Personally, fewer utilities and similar abilities are a good thing because I never had a reason to use them most of the time, but it would be nice to have a DCD that had a shorter cooldown than Saber Ward to bridge the gap while waiting for the 3-minute cooldown.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Mcboyo