Jedi Guardian Feedback

[tunewalker]

I am going to talk about what I think an ability prune SHOULD be. The biggest factor of an ability prune should be to simplify the rotation. The current rotation for vigilant guardians include sundering strike, plasma brand, overhead slash, blade barage, lightsaber throw, whirling blade, vigilant thrust and blade storm. That is a total of 8 abilities that the spec is juggling. We also want to trim the fat. The abilities that are rarely if ever used such as Force Freeze, Awe and for damage specs Riposte all of which are highly niche abilities. Finally, yes I do agree with trimming down defensive abilities for damage specs. When 1.0 launched we had enure and saber ward at that was it. Making enure a little stronger and then giving you a choice between ward, reflect (with reflect seeing a buff) or Focused defense on damage specs should be more than enough for them to survive content, as long as that content is properly tuned.

 

Let's talk about what the ideal rotation should be for vigilant guardians and what the total prunning, i believe, should look like. First plasma brand is wrapped into Overhead slash and Overhead slash's cooldown is changed to 6 seconds (every other Overhead slash would do force damage, apply a 12 second burn and reset blade barrage with a refund of focus). LIghtsaber throw and whirling blade would be rolled into a single ability with procs causing a damage increase and ability reset. Cooldown on Lightsaber throw is lowered. Cooldown on Blade Storm is lowered. Damage on vigilant thrust is lowered to make it good for AOE and not a part of the main rotation. Strike and Slash are both buffed to be viable single target filler.

 

Abilities lost Force Freeze, Awe, Riposte becomes defense only, Plasma brand is wrapped into other abilities, Whirling blade is wrapped into other abilities, AOE Rotation created and more seperate from single target rotation, Defensive cooldowns returned to 2 buttons for offensive specs. Defensive specs keep defensive cooldowns as rotating through them during a boss fight is a skill, they loose more offensive abilities but keep riposte.

 

 

TL: DR An ability prune I feel does not work unless you are simplifying the rotations of the classes. If you still have 8 or 9 abilities you utilize on the regular and you are simply pruning the less used abilities all you are doing is removing utility. That said less used abilities should be removed as they are taking up unneeded space, there just isn't much of a point if you aren't also simplifying other aspects.

 

Ideal rotation for Vigilant guardian Saber throw-force leap, Overhead, Blade Storm, Blade Barrage, Sundering strike, Overhead, blade storm, blade barrage, Saber Throw/(turned into whirling blade by procs).

Edited December 31, 2021 by tunewalker

[WaywardOne]

I am going to talk about what I think an ability prune SHOULD be. The biggest factor of an ability prune should be to simplify the rotation. The current rotation for vigilant guardians include sundering strike, plasma brand, overhead slash, blade barage, lightsaber throw, whirling blade, vigilant thrust and blade storm. That is a total of 8 abilities that the spec is juggling. We also want to trim the fat. The abilities that are rarely if ever used such as Force Freeze, Awe and for damage specs Riposte all of which are highly niche abilities. Finally, yes I do agree with trimming down defensive abilities for damage specs. When 1.0 launched we had enure and saber ward at that was it. Making enure a little stronger and then giving you a choice between ward, reflect (with reflect seeing a buff) or Focused defense on damage specs should be more than enough for them to survive content, as long as that content is properly tuned.

 

Let's talk about what the ideal rotation should be for vigilant guardians and what the total prunning, i believe, should look like. First plasma brand is wrapped into Overhead slash and Overhead slash's cooldown is changed to 6 seconds (every other Overhead slash would do force damage, apply a 12 second burn and reset blade barrage with a refund of focus). LIghtsaber throw and whirling blade would be rolled into a single ability with procs causing a damage increase and ability reset. Cooldown on Lightsaber throw is lowered. Cooldown on Blade Storm is lowered. Damage on vigilant thrust is lowered to make it good for AOE and not a part of the main rotation. Strike and Slash are both buffed to be viable single target filler.

 

Abilities lost Force Freeze, Awe, Riposte becomes defense only, Plasma brand is wrapped into other abilities, Whirling blade is wrapped into other abilities, AOE Rotation created and more seperate from single target rotation, Defensive cooldowns returned to 2 buttons for offensive specs. Defensive specs keep defensive cooldowns as rotating through them during a boss fight is a skill, they loose more offensive abilities but keep riposte.

 

 

TL: DR An ability prune I feel does not work unless you are simplifying the rotations of the classes. If you still have 8 or 9 abilities you utilize on the regular and you are simply pruning the less used abilities all you are doing is removing utility. That said less used abilities should be removed as they are taking up unneeded space, there just isn't much of a point if you aren't also simplifying other aspects.

 

Ideal rotation for Vigilant guardian Saber throw-force leap, Overhead, Blade Storm, Blade Barrage, Sundering strike, Overhead, blade storm, blade barrage, Saber Throw/(turned into whirling blade by procs).

 

Other than vague feelings, why do you think guardians had "too much defense" in 2013 (that's when they had enure, saber ward, reflect and focused defense)? Since then how many times has a non-D guardian been on the top of the ranked leaderboards? Maybe in season 2 or season 3 right before the nerf to focused defense, otherwise they have been pretty much the class for people that like the idea of playing a single saber fighter no matter the cost; they haven't remotely exceled at pvp or pve. The class has always had its haters, fighter types are literally/comically hated by certain sorts of players in every rpg; I don't get it but I could recite numerous stories - some have always called them overpowered no matter what evidence they are presented. But on the list of classes that needed a nerf they have been at the bottom for at least 95% of this game's history, at least from what I have seen.

[tunewalker]

Other than vague feelings, why do you think guardians had "too much defense" in 2013 (that's when they had enure, saber ward, reflect and focused defense)? Since then how many times has a non-D guardian been on the top of the ranked leaderboards? Maybe in season 2 or season 3 right before the nerf to focused defense, otherwise they have been pretty much the class for people that like the idea of playing a single saber fighter no matter the cost; they haven't remotely exceled at pvp or pve. The class has always had its haters, fighter types are literally/comically hated by certain sorts of players in every rpg; I don't get it but I could recite numerous stories - some have always called them overpowered no matter what evidence they are presented. But on the list of classes that needed a nerf they have been at the bottom for at least 95% of this game's history, at least from what I have seen.

 

I personally played the class all the way through until after Revan when I first stopped playing the game. Now I am not saying that they have too much defense as of now. I am saying that during an ability prune a melee dps spec doesn't NEED more than 2 defensive abilities to be balanced. In PvE if you are having to rotate through that many defensive abilities at all times there is an issue with how you are playing the mechanics of the fight, and in PvP there are other nobs to pull and other things to tweak on ALL classes to create that balance. The ability prune doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

 

Edit: this said, having not really played the other classes or felt what the PvP balance is, and while acknowledging balance AND gearing is very much still out of whack still. Going to talk about what we ARE getting if they fix the scaling and the numbers. Going to talk about specifically vigilance, because again this is the one I largely play and largely played since launch.

 

Branding Burst: Nice additional help with AoE mob pulls and with lower kill times, by doing this you are not losing plasma brand burn when applying it to a low health target.

 

Cauterizing Brand: AWKWARD. 2 seconds is 1 GCD + a little extra and feels like a very awkward amount. I personally would love if this was a full 3 seconds. This would return Plasma Brand to it's 1.0/2.0 CD which I remember very fondly as it added some flexibility to the abilities up time and re-application time.

 

Cyclone slash being gone and needing to be taken, It kind of takes away our only AOE rotation, but other classes have always been better at AOE anyway and, from what I remember in operations, there aren't a lot of AoE moments that are really needed, but there are still enough in NM operations that you could be a detriment to your team for not having good AoE. Thankfully other spec options do seem to Add some AoE back to the fray so this is a bit of a mixed back for me.

 

Awe being gone unless taken, I was never much of a fan of this ability outside warzones so it being an option and something i can completely ignore if I want to do other content. Yes please thank you.

 

Unyeilding justice, ironically fixes one of the biggest issues I always had with the blade storm range increase. By also increasing force push damage AND having it ignore the damage reduction after doing so you have added some more ranged capability for guardian, which is nice.

 

Now the part where I get hung. Enure, vs Saber Reflect vs blade blitz. I hate blade blitz, I have forever. Yes it is a mobility option, but it has always been a clunky and awkward ability to use. Yes I know skilled players have gotten used to it, and with it being out 5 years or more people are probably throwing themselves off cliffs with it less often, but that does not change the fact that it is clunky and weird to use and takes away directional control from your character. I play GSF I get enough Self destruct moments out of Power Dive and bad Barrel Rolls in 3d space, I don't really need that on the ground. Enure, I do not get peoples love for this ability, it has existed since the dawn of the game, and has consistently been one of the worst defensive cooldowns, the temporary health goes away so it just gives healers a false sense of safety. It helps in a pinch, but I am not popping this ability on CD in just about any situation. Finally Saber Reflect, again very short duration, very niche ability and personally my favorite of the bunch and I am taking it, but this is my point none of these abilities were particularly super powerful to begin with and all had decently long CD's that made their use limited. Only 1 has existed since the start of the game and it was considered very weak it's entire span. To call all 3 "Necessary" is a stretch. Again we can't compare post ability prune balance to pre-ability prune balance. They are 2 separate balance issues. This is the definition of non-core abilities/ weak niche abilities, being pruned to create more player choice while also giving them a more focused way on improving balance as a whole. If 1 of these 3 becomes the overwhelming favorite, they will look to buff the other 2, if the class as a whole is weak they can look outside of the spec and to the actual core defensive abilities like Saber Ward or Force leap and guardian leap for mobility, but this is just a returning players view point.

 

 

That said, balance in the whole game is still very much out of whack, but that doesn't mean the concepts of the ability prune aren't being done alright. Just really need to fix the scaling and the gearing.

Edited January 1, 2022 by tunewalker

[velvet_illusionZ]

I personally played the class all the way through until after Revan when I first stopped playing the game. Now I am not saying that they have too much defense as of now. I am saying that during an ability prune a melee dps spec doesn't NEED more than 2 defensive abilities to be balanced. In PvE if you are having to rotate through that many defensive abilities at all times there is an issue with how you are playing the mechanics of the fight, and in PvP there are other nobs to pull and other things to tweak on ALL classes to create that balance. The ability prune doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

 

Edit: this said, having not really played the other classes or felt what the PvP balance is, and while acknowledging balance AND gearing is very much still out of whack still. Going to talk about what we ARE getting if they fix the scaling and the numbers. Going to talk about specifically vigilance, because again this is the one I largely play and largely played since launch.

 

Branding Burst: Nice additional help with AoE mob pulls and with lower kill times, by doing this you are not losing plasma brand burn when applying it to a low health target.

 

Cauterizing Brand: AWKWARD. 2 seconds is 1 GCD + a little extra and feels like a very awkward amount. I personally would love if this was a full 3 seconds. This would return Plasma Brand to it's 1.0/2.0 CD which I remember very fondly as it added some flexibility to the abilities up time and re-application time.

 

Cyclone slash being gone and needing to be taken, It kind of takes away our only AOE rotation, but other classes have always been better at AOE anyway and, from what I remember in operations, there aren't a lot of AoE moments that are really needed, but there are still enough in NM operations that you could be a detriment to your team for not having good AoE. Thankfully other spec options do seem to Add some AoE back to the fray so this is a bit of a mixed back for me.

 

Awe being gone unless taken, I was never much of a fan of this ability outside warzones so it being an option and something i can completely ignore if I want to do other content. Yes please thank you.

 

Unyeilding justice, ironically fixes one of the biggest issues I always had with the blade storm range increase. By also increasing force push damage AND having it ignore the damage reduction after doing so you have added some more ranged capability for guardian, which is nice.

 

Now the part where I get hung. Enure, vs Saber Reflect vs blade blitz. I hate blade blitz, I have forever. Yes it is a mobility option, but it has always been a clunky and awkward ability to use. Yes I know skilled players have gotten used to it, and with it being out 5 years or more people are probably throwing themselves off cliffs with it less often, but that does not change the fact that it is clunky and weird to use and takes away directional control from your character. I play GSF I get enough Self destruct moments out of Power Dive and bad Barrel Rolls in 3d space, I don't really need that on the ground. Enure, I do not get peoples love for this ability, it has existed since the dawn of the game, and has consistently been one of the worst defensive cooldowns, the temporary health goes away so it just gives healers a false sense of safety. It helps in a pinch, but I am not popping this ability on CD in just about any situation. Finally Saber Reflect, again very short duration, very niche ability and personally my favorite of the bunch and I am taking it, but this is my point none of these abilities were particularly super powerful to begin with and all had decently long CD's that made their use limited. Only 1 has existed since the start of the game and it was considered very weak it's entire span. To call all 3 "Necessary" is a stretch. Again we can't compare post ability prune balance to pre-ability prune balance. They are 2 separate balance issues. This is the definition of non-core abilities/ weak niche abilities, being pruned to create more player choice while also giving them a more focused way on improving balance as a whole. If 1 of these 3 becomes the overwhelming favorite, they will look to buff the other 2, if the class as a whole is weak they can look outside of the spec and to the actual core defensive abilities like Saber Ward or Force leap and guardian leap for mobility, but this is just a returning players view point.

 

 

That said, balance in the whole game is still very much out of whack, but that doesn't mean the concepts of the ability prune aren't being done alright. Just really need to fix the scaling and the gearing.

 

Rarely have I read so much nonesens! guardian mobility is trash as it is right now, making blade blitz a must have in all content, there is no debating on this. blade blitz should stay baseline with a lowered cd to bring it in line with other escape skills. reflect ist mandatory as well, no debating about it! enure should be buffed to be a flat 30 % heal, no fake heal nonesense....awe also is kinda must have in pvp...they totally destroyed guardian dps with their brainless pruning...

[tunewalker]

Rarely have I read so much nonesens! guardian mobility is trash as it is right now, making blade blitz a must have in all content, there is no debating on this. blade blitz should stay baseline with a lowered cd to bring it in line with other escape skills. reflect ist mandatory as well, no debating about it! enure should be buffed to be a flat 30 % heal, no fake heal nonesense....awe also is kinda must have in pvp...they totally destroyed guardian dps with their brainless pruning...

 

If you feel you need the mobility take Blade Blitz. You said Reflect was Mandatory with no reason why if they buff the other Defensives. And you just proved my point on both enure and Awe. Enure was always kinda weak and Awe is useful in Pvp and not so much in other content. So if you are doing PvP take it, if not ignore. So good job proving my point.