The PVP community has spoken...how does Keith respond?

[Jdast]

Totem vs. Olag,

 

This might take a while.

 

Dasty

Edited October 27, 2018 by Jdast

[olagatonjedi]

And what if you can’t play MM ops?

I would ask WHY you cant PLAY MM ops? There are very few reasons why someone cant play MM ops. Thats not to say they would be successful either, though. But math guarantees a player will fail something 100% of the time if they dont attempt that something.

 

Why should that allow you to be disadvantaged in pvp?

Self inflicted disadvantage. Like someone who doesnt use their skills in PvP. You dont get mad at BW for the winning team using their skills, abilities, and resources to win during a PvP match, right? But BW, omf, they clicked skills and stuff and I didn't - thats so unfair and needs to be changed.

 

Honestly, I think you are just being contentious for the sake of it, like you usually are,

You obviously don’t care about pvp or pvpers having a skill vs skill experience.

You are welcome to believe what you want - like the earth being flat, but wont make it true. Good luck with that, though.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I would ask WHY you cant PLAY MM ops? There are very few reasons why someone cant play MM ops. Thats not to say they would be successful either, though. But math guarantees a player will fail something 100% of the time if they dont attempt that something.

 

This is where you lost the argument.

 

There's a very good reason why people can't play NiM who aren't NiM worthy and that is because they will be kicked out of that group in 1 pull when people see that the player can't meet the checks and they will see that in live time because everyone will not only be in Star Parse and able to see what everyone elses numbers are and because they will also mandatorily be in voice chat in NiM they will get told some very not nice things for wasting thier time.

 

Truth be told, it would never even get that far to begin with because people don't pug NiM because you can't pug NiM and even if a HM/NiM Progression group was looking for a replacement because one of their members couldn't make it and the player responded to the person looking for a replacement with their interest the very first thing they will do is check your achievements. You can't hide achievements and you can't fake the. The will see you are not NiM worthy [assuming the person in question isn't] and they send you packing in two seconds, you won't even get to walk in the door of that NiM.

 

She is absolutely right in stating that will not be an option for 90% of the player base.Even NiM worthy players wipe. I was a HM/NiM Progression Raider up until 5.0, I certainly wasn't one of the better NiM Raiders, quite honestly I hated NiM it's disgusting and as far as I am concerned you can't have fun doing it unless you are a true Elitest or your a masocist.

 

If you are not already a HM progression raider, if you don't have a lot of experience, if you can't get top numbers ranges, if you are unwilling to be in a parsing program with the group and using voice chat, and if you are not in a HM/NiM Progression group, you are not clearing that content. Also, just because you may be NiM worthy doesn't mean you can farm all NiM, maybe 5% are good enough for that, maybe not even. I certainly never was, not by a long shot.

 

I have no doubt even if I tried NiM again now I would fail at it, I haven't raided in over a year and god only knows how long it would take me to get back to form [and I was never all that great at NiM to begin with]

 

I do agree with you on one point though. I do think that people who are NiM worthy and able to clear the content with a decent amount of regularity should gear up faster than any other player playing any other content because it is the hardest content in the game by a mile. Now I don't tend to think there are enough people who will be able to clear NiM so fast that they are fully geared quickly and than who may go into WZs with the better gear. It's a valid concern in theory, and if it did happen with any real frequency [which I am not of the opinion it likely will] their concerns would be made real.

 

The people sitting on 50-60k in UCs, they're the ones that if I understand the PTS findings correctly will be gearing the fastest. I may not be understanding it perfectly tho, people who are actually on the PTS Like Totem have the first hand knowledge could correct me I am wrong. We also don't know actually how it will be until it goes live. They've changed things that had already finished being play tested and changes after it ended and than went live. We won't know anything for sure til than.

Edited October 27, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Andryah]

This is where you lost the argument.

 

There's a very good reason why people can't play NiM who aren't NiM worthy and that is because they will be kicked out of that group in 1 pull when people see that the player can't meet the checks and they will see that in live time because everyone will not only be in Star Parse and able to see what everyone elses numbers are and because they will also mandatorily be in voice chat in NiM they will get told some very not nice things for wasting thier time.

 

 

I have been reading your detailed comments on this topic with interest. I have found you to be generally objective and reasonable throughout.. though I do think you are too deferential to some of the negative behaviors of the PvPers here.

 

The things is.. in this particular comment I quoted... two points of feedback:

 

1) I really wish people would avoid conflict statements as much as possible.... like declaring the party you quoted as "losing the argument". That approach prolongs the divisiveness in my view.

 

2) more importantly..... what you say with regard to a player being kicked for their first mistake on the first part of the encounter.... this context only applies in PuG OPs. Frankly... the hardest OPs content should not be PuGable in my view. It should require an organized and persistent group of players... either a guild, or a close circle of friends, who trust each other, support each other, and are willing to pull together even in the reality that not all players in the group are all of equal top skill, gear, and ability. This is what is wrong with OPs groups in this game.. and some other MMOs.... players thinking they can and should be able to PuG the hardest of the hardest content.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Andryah

[AlrikFassbauer]

Do I understand this correctly ? PvP players who are trying to get casuals out of ranked believe they can't do MM or / and NIMH OPs & FPs ?

 

Or have I mixed up things now ?

[Lhancelot]

Do I understand this correctly ? PvP players who are trying to get casuals out of ranked believe they can't do MM or / and NIMH OPs & FPs ?

 

Or have I mixed up things now ?

 

I am pretty sure there are many PVE players who are not interested in doing NIMH OPs and FPs, it just so happens this thread was created by a PVPer expressing their opinion on the topic of the future gearing system.

 

If you notice across the forums, there are many types of players who are not exactly happy about the future gearing grind.

[kukumburr]

I did hardcore progression raiding in WoW for years before I played SWTOR. When I started played SWTOR I didn't care for the raiding as much but got really into the PvP, so I ended up staying for that and the story. I later went back with a smaller core group of people I used to raid with in WoW to do some mythic raids, but ended up just wanting to come back to SWTOR.

 

I've done plenty of raiding. I don't want to do it anymore. Not because I'm not capable, but because it's a massive time and scheduling commitment. Also saying anyone can do NiM Ops is absolutely not true and it has nothing to do with whether or not they can hit buttons correctly. Lots of people have small kids they have to take care of or have on call jobs where they can't make the commitment to be on and fully paying attention for 3+ hours several times a week. They might have to leave at any moment. And every serious raid group I've been apart of, unless it's a close knit group of real life friends, won't be bringing that person to raids for long if they keep having to leave or go afk. Plus there are plenty of people who can only play at non-primetime hours which would make finding a raid group very difficult.

 

In comparison a PvP match only requires your attention for 15-20 minutes and you can pretty much play whenever you want. The exception being sometimes you won't get ranked pops at certain times of the day. But ranked still requires BiS gear if you really want to be competitive.

[JattaGin]

Do I understand this correctly ? PvP players who are trying to get casuals out of ranked believe they can't do MM or / and NIMH OPs & FPs ?

 

Or have I mixed up things now ?

 

I wished I could answer your question. At this point, I don't have an effing clue anymore what's going on.

[olagatonjedi]

This is where you lost the argument.

 

There's a very good reason why people can't play NiM who aren't NiM worthy and that is because they will be kicked out of that group in 1 pull when people see that the player can't meet the checks and they will see that in live time because everyone will not only be in Star Parse and able to see what everyone elses numbers are and because they will also mandatorily be in voice chat in NiM they will get told some very not nice things for wasting thier time.

 

Truth be told, it would never even get that far to begin with because people don't pug NiM because you can't pug NiM and even if a HM/NiM Progression group was looking for a replacement because one of their members couldn't make it and the player responded to the person looking for a replacement with their interest the very first thing they will do is check your achievements. You can't hide achievements and you can't fake the. The will see you are not NiM worthy [assuming the person in question isn't] and they send you packing in two seconds, you won't even get to walk in the door of that NiM.

 

She is absolutely right in stating that will not be an option for 90% of the player base.Even NiM worthy players wipe. I was a HM/NiM Progression Raider up until 5.0, I certainly wasn't one of the better NiM Raiders, quite honestly I hated NiM it's disgusting and as far as I am concerned you can't have fun doing it unless you are a true Elitest or your a masocist.

 

If you are not already a HM progression raider, if you don't have a lot of experience, if you can't get top numbers ranges, if you are unwilling to be in a parsing program with the group and using voice chat, and if you are not in a HM/NiM Progression group, you are not clearing that content. Also, just because you may be NiM worthy doesn't mean you can farm all NiM, maybe 5% are good enough for that, maybe not even. I certainly never was, not by a long shot.

 

I have no doubt even if I tried NiM again now I would fail at it, I haven't raided in over a year and god only knows how long it would take me to get back to form [and I was never all that great at NiM to begin with]

 

I do agree with you on one point though. I do think that people who are NiM worthy and able to clear the content with a decent amount of regularity should gear up faster than any other player playing any other content because it is the hardest content in the game by a mile. Now I don't tend to think there are enough people who will be able to clear NiM so fast that they are fully geared quickly and than who may go into WZs with the better gear. It's a valid concern in theory, and if it did happen with any real frequency [which I am not of the opinion it likely will] their concerns would be made real.

 

The people sitting on 50-60k in UCs, they're the ones that if I understand the PTS findings correctly will be gearing the fastest. I may not be understanding it perfectly tho, people who are actually on the PTS Like Totem have the first hand knowledge could correct me I am wrong. We also don't know actually how it will be until it goes live. They've changed things that had already finished being play tested and changes after it ended and than went live. We won't know anything for sure til than.

The majority of the barriers you mention regarding nim availability are also player-imposed barriers. Players and guilds were clearing nim content long before achievements and starparse were available, and many of those ops failed regularly until their players learned the mechanics and improved their gameplay. Aside from knowing the mechanics (a modifiable element) and knowing the class rotations (also modifiable - and btw, a player doesnt even need to 100% perfectly perform their rotations), none of that other stuff has any true relevance to running NIM content. Also, with the number of different ops available, and the varying degree of difficulties of each boss, it is possible to gear up without clearing entire NIM ops, and instead hitting the "easier" bosses from various NIM ops.

 

If a group or guild doesnt let player A join because they dont have SP or the achievement, or because he cant meet the dps check or perform the mechanics, that is their choice, but that attitude and those requirements are not from BW.

 

Not all players agree with SP and achievement requirements either. In addition, many guilds have open spots for learning HM/NIM content, so there are opportunities out there for people to join in and improve. If they choose not to join and attempt to improve, they will be applying any gearing (and skill) detriment to themselves - self-imposed. And they should accept that as such. And since we are talking about PVP detriments, lack of skill will always have a bigger impact than the small gear disparity between 248 and 258. So its a moot point.

[Lithdox]

In typical BW fashion... they respond by not communicating.

 

Well. This is so true!!!!!

[Totemdancer]

They’ve just added another nail in the pvp coffin

 

Hey folks,

 

The current plan is that in 5.10 bolster will have the following item ratings:

• Gear - 248 (up from 242)
  
• Augments - 236 (up from 208)
  

As always this is subject to change and I will let you know of any other adjustments. Thanks!

 

-eric

[darthscotty]

I did hardcore progression raiding in WoW for years before I played SWTOR. When I started played SWTOR I didn't care for the raiding as much but got really into the PvP, so I ended up staying for that and the story. I later went back with a smaller core group of people I used to raid with in WoW to do some mythic raids, but ended up just wanting to come back to SWTOR.

 

I've done plenty of raiding. I don't want to do it anymore. Not because I'm not capable, but because it's a massive time and scheduling commitment. Also saying anyone can do NiM Ops is absolutely not true and it has nothing to do with whether or not they can hit buttons correctly. Lots of people have small kids they have to take care of or have on call jobs where they can't make the commitment to be on and fully paying attention for 3+ hours several times a week. They might have to leave at any moment. And every serious raid group I've been apart of, unless it's a close knit group of real life friends, won't be bringing that person to raids for long if they keep having to leave or go afk. Plus there are plenty of people who can only play at non-primetime hours which would make finding a raid group very difficult.

 

In comparison a PvP match only requires your attention for 15-20 minutes and you can pretty much play whenever you want. The exception being sometimes you won't get ranked pops at certain times of the day. But ranked still requires BiS gear if you really want to be competitive.

 

 

Totally agree with you. I used to do a lot of raiding and I just do not want to make the time commitment anymore. This is also why I like CXP and how they have things set up right now. I have a path to the best gear, it is slower, as it should be, but I have a path to get it in time. I usually do the pvp daily and weekly on one toon and maybe two toons and I have several very well geared toons. In fairness I stay out of ranked, I am not that into pvp and I would only be a hinderance to those who are serious about their ranked score.

[TUXs]

They’ve just added another nail in the pvp coffin

You've got to be kidding me...

[Lhancelot]

They’ve just added another nail in the pvp coffin

 

Is this coffin a deliberate design goal, do you think? It has to be, right?

 

I have a ton of respect for creators of all art and I consider game developing an art. These guys are highly intelligent and talented people.

 

That being said, how are changes like these making it through quality control? My concern with these changes is they are really just narrowing down the type of player that can and want to play the game...

 

This is going to have a direct impact on population.

[mhobin]

Is this coffin a deliberate design goal, do you think? It has to be, right?

 

I have a ton of respect for creators of all art and I consider game developing an art. These guys are highly intelligent and talented people.

 

That being said, how are changes like these making it through quality control? My concern with these changes is they are really just narrowing down the type of player that can and want to play the game...

 

This is going to have a direct impact on population.

 

Anyone else want to believe me that it is a pure financial descion? They want everyone who is not a NiM raider to get the new gear via credits and crafting. They want the CM sales bump. Cause this ish is going to be expensive.

[TUXs]

Is this coffin a deliberate design goal, do you think? It has to be, right?

 

My concern with these changes is they are really just narrowing down the type of player that can and want to play the game...

 

This is going to have a direct impact on population.

It has to be...and you're correct...it's going to have a negative impact on the population (again), with zero benefit to players.

[kodrac]

Anyone else want to believe me that it is a pure financial descion?

 

Nope. Better to quit than pay more.

Edited October 30, 2018 by kodrac

[KendraP]

Anyone else want to believe me that it is a pure financial descion? They want everyone who is not a NiM raider to get the new gear via credits and crafting. They want the CM sales bump. Cause this ish is going to be expensive.

 

Oh i believe this. Doesn't make it any less stupid, however.

[Andryah]

Oh i believe this. Doesn't make it any less stupid, however.

 

So you are buying in to his running pay-2-win conspiracy that this is being done to drive CM sales so people have to buy CM items and then resell them to convert to credits so they can buy the effectively unobtainable crafted gear (based simply on materials costs currently on PTS)

 

really? Personally, I don't see you as a conspiracy theorist backer.

 

Note: the conspiracy theory is completely irrelevant to acquiring the gear via token currencies and the equipment vendors.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

So you are buying in to his running pay-2-win conspiracy that this is being done to drive CM sales so people have to buy CM items and then resell them to convert to credits so they can buy the effectively unobtainable crafted gear (based simply on materials costs currently on PTS)

 

really? Personally, I don't see you as a conspiracy theorist backer.

 

Note: the conspiracy theory is completely irrelevant to acquiring the gear via token currencies and the equipment vendors.

 

Because EA has no track record of putting P2W mechanics in their games?

 

Your right it has never worked for them in the past.

[Lhancelot]

Anyone else want to believe me that it is a pure financial descion? They want everyone who is not a NiM raider to get the new gear via credits and crafting. They want the CM sales bump. Cause this ish is going to be expensive.

 

I like to remind people of The Coca Cola Story.

 

How Coca Cola in the 80s created New Coke and it was met with resentment and outright rage. So like any smart business would do when the customers revolted over the product change, they went back to making Coke Classic and ditched the New Coke formula.

 

BW/EA keeps recreating New Coke formulas only making them worse each time instead of going back to what they did best which was earlier formulas.

 

Stop making disgusting new formulas that taste awful. Listen to the people. Bring back Classic swtor.

[mhobin]

I like to remind people of The Coca Cola Story.

 

How Coca Cola in the 80s created New Coke and it was met with resentment and outright rage. So like any smart business would do when the customers revolted over the product change, they went back to making Coke Classic and ditched the New Coke formula.

 

BW/EA keeps recreating New Coke formulas only making them worse each time instead of going back to what they did best which was earlier formulas.

 

Stop making disgusting new formulas that taste awful. Listen to the people. Bring back Classic swtor.

 

Without New Coke we might not have gotten Crystal Pepsi....and who wants to live in that world!

[KendraP]

So you are buying in to his running pay-2-win conspiracy that this is being done to drive CM sales so people have to buy CM items and then resell them to convert to credits so they can buy the effectively unobtainable crafted gear (based simply on materials costs currently on PTS)

 

really? Personally, I don't see you as a conspiracy theorist backer.

 

Note: the conspiracy theory is completely irrelevant to acquiring the gear via token currencies and the equipment vendors.

 

Not CM so much, but craft being BoE so it can be sold on the gtn and act as a credit sink, definitely.

Edited October 31, 2018 by KendraP

[Totemdancer]

I like to remind people of The Coca Cola Story.

 

How Coca Cola in the 80s created New Coke and it was met with resentment and outright rage. So like any smart business would do when the customers revolted over the product change, they went back to making Coke Classic and ditched the New Coke formula.

 

BW/EA keeps recreating New Coke formulas only making them worse each time instead of going back to what they did best which was earlier formulas.

 

Stop making disgusting new formulas that taste awful. Listen to the people. Bring back Classic swtor.

 

Great analogy.

 

Also coke was taking a big hit in sales, but at least they had other products to make money off till they fixed the problem.

Bioware don’t have anything. Anthem isn’t released yet and feed back in social media is it’s not going to that great.

When you only have one product with a revenue stream, you don’t endanger that revenue stream by taking risks or cut it intentionally. Business practices like this are what lead to bankruptcy in other industries.

Players (customers) are protesting before the changes, not after, so Bioware have a chance to turn this decision around. None of us want the game to fail or we wouldn’t bother posting our feed back.

[Totemdancer]

So you are buying in to his running pay-2-win conspiracy that this is being done to drive CM sales so people have to buy CM items and then resell them to convert to credits so they can buy the effectively unobtainable crafted gear (based simply on materials costs currently on PTS)

 

really? Personally, I don't see you as a conspiracy theorist backer.

 

Note: the conspiracy theory is completely irrelevant to acquiring the gear via token currencies and the equipment vendors.

 

Sure, why not. When you stop and actually think about it, it’s actually quite ingenious if Bioware are doing it deliberately.

People willing to pay to win will always find a way if they can.

The crafted gear will be really expensive on the GTN and buying CM items

Buying and selling CM items to get credits is a ledgitmate way to make in game credits.

So if you can’t get the armour fast enough for your liking and you are willing to pay, there is a de facto way to pay2win.

Everyone knows the backlash EA and other companies got from introducing P2W in games last year. This could just be a round about way to bring it back into games.

That’s not a conspiracy if it’s true. It’s actually a theory that is totally plausible.

Even if it’s not intentional, some people will use this type of system to pay real mo eye to gear up.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Totemdancer