The PVP community has spoken...how does Keith respond?

[Andryah]

I'm guessing they intended to do T5 all along with Galactic Command. But you know... we made it crystal clear what we think about RNGearing.

 

The one interesting precedent established in this tier 5 release ----> the ability to craft BiS gear with set bonus (albeit old set bonus already long in 5.x). It could be a one time thing.. or it could be a new path by the studio where BiS and crafting is concerned. I would have more expected they would allow crafters to approach this through some REing process.

 

Though the current recipes for this gear requires absurdly high material costs... but that may or may not last all the way to the patch going live. The current requirements on PTS may be set deliberately high to give the studio room to bring them down before live patch, based on player feedback. It's always easier (from a player expectation management perspective) for a studio to lower a cost rather than raise it. We will have to wait and see.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah

[Toraak]

It seems reasonable to do 3 crystals per toon per week. But if you wanted to full-out gear 1 toon in the first week you could do it with 14 toons and 21000 UC. And you have a month to save up 21000 UC. (assuming we aren't missing something and our maths are correct)

 

That said, I'm not sure why new gear is being added for 1 daily area + 1 NiM version of an operation. Is there some other new content? New gear should have been implemented with 6.0, in my opinion. That said, I personally won't mind the gear grind. It'll give me something to do in a game where I'm bored. And it'll go nicely with my Conquest mat farming.

 

More food for thought: If pulling 248 mods costs 48k to remove, how much will 258's cost?

 

 

Without paying massive amounts of UC's, you could use alts to get the 9 pieces from 9 different alts through legacy gear in theory, and 1 Earpiece, implant or relic on the main you play. However unless you pay a ton of UC's, you wouldn't be able to get all 14 pieces in the 1st week. Remember 5 pieces of gear can't be transferred through legacy gear (2 implants, 2 relics, and 1 eapriece) So in theory, you could use alts to get 10 of the 14 pieces (9 from alts and 1 from your main) the 1st week after you have the reputation, but it would take time to finish off the last 3 pieces.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Hmm true. So it'll take 5 weeks to gear your ear/implants/relics, unless you can craft and/or do NiM Gods. Thus only 9 alts plus the toon you are gearing. Interesting! Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[casirabit]

It will take over a year to gear a single character if you buy 1 shard per week.

 

Okay I am asking a question, if one shard gets you one piece of armor and there are 14 pieces of armor, that is not over a year, that is 14 weeks, so again how is that over a year? (52 weeks is a year, 14 weeks is about 3.5 months)

[Jdast]

Okay I am asking a question, if one shard gets you one piece of armor and there are 14 pieces of armor, that is not over a year, that is 14 weeks, so again how is that over a year? (52 weeks is a year, 14 weeks is about 3.5 months)

 

Currently on the PTS it is 4 Masterwork Shards to buy one piece of gear.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jdast

[KendraP]

Yo all - out of relevance i just did a bunch of number crunching. The total stat pool increase (not counting augments) is about 5%

https://imgur.com/a/CUmFDOp

 

For comparison, the 236 augments make a roughly 2.5% difference in your total stat pool (then 240 is 0.6% higher than that).

 

Ideas on the implication? I know i only have one toon fully 236 augmented and haven't bothered with 240 and i still am perfectly fine.

[FourPawnBenoni]

It seems reasonable to do 3 crystals per toon per week. But if you wanted to full-out gear 1 toon in the first week you could do it with 14 toons and 21000 UC.

 

This is so far off topic

 

1. It side steps the issue of the time you have to spend with 14 alts to play through everything (the grind)

2.) It side steps the issue of how in 4.0 people that just want to pvp could get their gear they need by just pvp'ing (they don't need progression for Ops)

3.) It side steps the issue that 5.10 is more in line with 5.0 ( a step backwards)

[Rion_Starkiller]

This is so far off topic

 

1. It side steps the issue of the time you have to spend with 14 alts to play through everything (the grind)

I think it's going to be 9 alts because you can't mail bound left side gear. Regarding grind, will spending 500-1500 UC per toon per week on T5 gear be slower than spending UC to upgrade 236-->242-->248 gear? I haven't done the math. @Kendra?

2.) It side steps the issue of how in 4.0 people that just want to pvp could get their gear they need by just pvp'ing (they don't need progression for Ops)

You needed multiple sets of gear if you did a variety of content. For example, if you played a Jugg, you would need a skank tank set for pvp, a regular tank set for pve, dps set for pvp, and a dps set for pve. This gearing system was great for pure pvp'ers.

 

I'm pretty sure pure pvp'ers are not the majority of pvp'ers because of the number of baddies I see daily in regs (Non-raider pve'ers are notoriously bad at pvp). So let me turn this around on you. Why are YOU against the QoL removal of expertise that a MAJORITY of players enjoy? i.e. non "pure" pvpers. And what system could be implemented that doesn't reintroduce expertise gear?

3.) It side steps the issue that 5.10 is more in line with 5.0 ( a step backwards)

5.0 was pure RNGesus crate drops. 5.10 is a grind.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Stellarcrusade]

Crickets... I hear crickets

 

When it’s something they don’t want to hear, they go silent.

 

 

You are half correct. They go silent when they do not want to hear, because they know they are wrong.

 

No-one likes to get dragged into an argument where you have no chance of being correct.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

You are half correct. They go silent when they do not want to hear, because they know they are wrong.

 

No-one likes to get dragged into an argument where you have no chance of being correct.

They are definitely observing the discussion. Threads have been deleted, threads have been renamed... We're yet to be graced with an appearance though. We're still motes of filth drowning in the chaos of the void...

Edited October 18, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[Khevar]

I think it's going to be 9 alts because you can't mail bound left side gear. Regarding grind, will spending 500-1500 UC per toon per week on T5 gear be slower than spending UC to upgrade 236-->242-->248 gear? I haven't done the math.

Based on this:

https://imgur.com/VNw0YK2

 

Unassembled Compoent costs are:

4,251 for 236

6,391 for 242

7,665 for 248

Total: 18,307

 

This assumes that one was so unlucky as to not have received a single piece of 236, 242 or 248 from as a command crate drop. Each drop of 236 gear reduces the total cost by 288-450 (depending on the piece), each drop of 242 gear reduces the total cost by 726-1125, and each drop of 248 gear reduces the total cost by 1251-1935.

 

Drop rates are anyone's guess. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the total cost to gear of a new level 70 character from Tier 1 to Tier 4 (under the post 5.6 galactic command system) to require from 6000-10000 UCs supplementing crate drops.

 

So I believe the answer is yes, the Tier 5 grind by itself is slower than the Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> Tier 3 -> Tier 4 grind combined.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Khevar

[FourPawnBenoni]

Why are YOU against the QoL removal of expertise that a MAJORITY of players enjoy? i.e. non "pure" pvpers. And what system could be implemented that doesn't reintroduce expertise gear?

 

5.0 was pure RNGesus crate drops. 5.10 is a grind.

 

I enjoy logging in to PVP and thats it.

 

As far as people that want to do both PVE & PVP and not have to deal with expertise then my suggestion as in the OP would be changing bolster so that instead of everyone being a minimum of 242 it would make it so that you are a minimum of 230 and it caps out at 242 (any gear stats over 242 would be ignored).

 

We should also be discussing the latest augments as well. They released 236 and 240 augments as "content" and were completely unnecessary. They are extremely pricey and also should only be for PVE Operation progression.

[FourPawnBenoni]

Based on this:

https://imgur.com/VNw0YK2

 

Drop rates are anyone's guess. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the total cost to gear of a new level 70 character from Tier 1 to Tier 4 (under the post 5.6 galactic command system) to require from 6000-10000 UCs supplementing crate drops.

 

So I believe the answer is yes, the Tier 5 grind by itself is slower than the Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> Tier 3 -> Tier 4 grind combined.

 

I've never spent any UC's prior to getting to 300. At 300 I have almost always been at least 240 or 242 at every slot, I'd say at least 12/14....so I think your calculation is pretty fair.

 

Also, we are calculating grind as in how many UC's you have to make. I am also considering the grind in how many game hours it takes to accomplish it. Running weekly's on 9-14 characters is time consuming AND BORING/REPETITIVE

Edited October 18, 2018 by FourPawnBenoni

[Andryah]

Without paying massive amounts of UC's, you could use alts to get the 9 pieces from 9 different alts through legacy gear in theory, and 1 Earpiece, implant or relic on the main you play. However unless you pay a ton of UC's, you wouldn't be able to get all 14 pieces in the 1st week. Remember 5 pieces of gear can't be transferred through legacy gear (2 implants, 2 relics, and 1 eapriece) So in theory, you could use alts to get 10 of the 14 pieces (9 from alts and 1 from your main) the 1st week after you have the reputation, but it would take time to finish off the last 3 pieces.

 

Week one is irrelevant since you need to build Hero faction on the new planet before you get to the vendors. If past is prologue... it will take either 2 weeks or 3 weeks to unlock Hero faction level... depending on where the studio sets the weekly cap on faction building. Of course they could break precedent and have no cap.. in which case... players will be grinding faction before they get to gear access.... they will just do more grind in the first week.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Week one is irrelevant since you need to build Hero faction on the new planet before you get to the vendors. If past is prologue... it will take either 2 weeks or 3 weeks to unlock Hero faction level... depending on where the studio sets the weekly cap on faction building. Of course they could break precedent and have no cap.. in which case... players will be grinding faction before they get to gear access.... they will just do more grind in the first week.

 

The weekly cap is is probably 12k like other rep. After re-reading about reputation, you will need 25k to reach Hero rank. This means it may not be possible to get 25k without 3 weeks unless you masterfully game the cap system with guild bonuses and purple rep at near-cap.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Andryah]

The weekly cap is is probably 12k like other rep. After re-reading about reputation, you will need 25k to reach Hero rank. This means it may not be possible to get 25k without 3 weeks unless you masterfully game the cap system with guild bonuses and purple rep at near-cap.

 

I agree.

[Lithdox]

GG BioWare. Unsubed. Also I wanted to bump this post.

[KendraP]

Ok update: DR seems to be dependant on 3 things:

The level of the armoring in question

The type of armor

The location of the armor

 

Assuming this relationship is of the form:

Armor rating = item level * location * type

I get that

Chest/helm/legs = 1.6 * gloves*boots*belt*gloves

Med armor = 1.417 * light armor

Heavy armor = 1.889 * light armor

 

To continue this I want to move to a spreadsheet, there are too many variables to predict with this sort of computation easily

 

I.e. i can take all the past values and use them to predict a future one by modelling it mathematically. But this is not the sort of thing i can readily sit around doing by hand.

 

https://imgur.com/a/Nll6x5G

[Fallensouls]

I think bioware should remove all gear in pvp and that way the fights will be all fair .The game can give you basic gear for everyone that way everyone has the same stats and pvp is by skill and not by gear. Just like they do for the low level pvp which is fun anyways. Edited October 19, 2018 by Fallensouls

[Totemdancer]

I think bioware should remove all gear in pvp and that way the fights will be all fair .The game can give you basic gear for everyone that way everyone has the same stats and pvp is by skill and not by gear. Just like they do for the low level pvp which is fun anyways.

 

It works well in lowbies and Mids because all the gear is bolstered to 242. They could easily do the same by bolstering all the gear to 258 for lvl 70 and be done with it. Problem solved.

[Totemdancer]

Okay I am asking a question, if one shard gets you one piece of armor and there are 14 pieces of armor, that is not over a year, that is 14 weeks, so again how is that over a year? (52 weeks is a year, 14 weeks is about 3.5 months)

 

It depends on how many shards you can get in a week.

 

It takes 4 shards to get one piece.

 

If for some reason you are only able to obtain 1 shard a week, that equals 56 weeks to gear 14 slots.

[mhobin]

Honestly we are looking at the end lifecycle of the game. They are setting up for pure maintenance mode. It is a long gear grind, very little content and a push to grab every dollar from the CM on the way out. At least the new planet has a great color scheme.

 

The guild challenge system would have been a cool thing if it was supported with rewards and a ladder system, but it looks like it is set up for PvPers who can’t get a game in queues. In a few months when ranked is gone, it will be the competitive mode where people will have to track their own progress.

 

The forums are basically dead at this point. It is the same 10 people talking about game mechanics, and a few others who talk about companions and cosmetics.

 

The game is what it is at this point. I have enjoyed it for a long time. A good game, with some huge flaws. Players always dreaming of what it could have been. The new gearing system sucks. Will they adjust it in the future? Maybe? Will they do it to service the PvP community....no. The PvP community at this point is like 4 guys and one of their little brothers who tag along. Not big enough to make a significant difference when planning game design. We got our last goodbye with the new huttball and the guild challenge system.

Edited October 19, 2018 by mhobin

[Batwer]

In typical BW fashion... they respond by not communicating.

 

There will be no PvP equipment. Otherwise they would not have abolished them. The question is, how do you get it to be fair for PvP and PvE? A PvP war zone takes about 8 minutes. You do not need to win. PVE must run OPs, etc. So PvPers should get less for what they do. Maybe they will get a crystal in the 2 Weekly. The UC should not always get higher. (Also for PvE)

[Celise]

The PVP community has overwhelmingly spoken out against the methodology of the next gear increase in 5.10. Literally, tons of well written, insightful posts over the past week. The grind is extremely burdensome, grindy and costly. This is all fine, for PVE players that are pursuing higher difficulties to progress.

 

In PVP, however, people are more interested in fair competition where gear matters less than skill. There is no level increase in this patch. There is literally ZERO difference in playing experience for PVP players in 5.10 vs 5.9. You're going to be playing the SAME maps. We do not have a new PVP equivalent to an Op that requires better gear.

 

This doesn't mean we should get gear for free. PVP players are ok with a fair system to improve gear. The 4.0 era was a perfect example of it, as many have noted. You had to get gear, but it didn't take too much time and allowed you to play more of your alts, which made it MORE FUN and less of a grind ending in burnout. The 4.0 era also had FAR MORE PLAYERS in PVP compared to now.

 

The community has outlined several good ideas, feel free to add if I missed any:

 

- Add expertise back in with a separate reward system similar to 4.0

- Cap gear level bolster to a fair level, which means stats higher than 242 would not be counted

- Allow the progression with the same system as in 5.6, which was grindy but more alt friendly than 5.0 or 5.10

 

After the past few months of pushing out content aimed for PVP players (new stronghold, new huttball map, etc) why would you introduce a gearing system that immediately pushes away your PVP base? Many people are saying they will be unsubbing with this system and just wait until 6.0 comes out to see if they come back. The problem is, sometimes people don't come back. Its like the lessons learned from 5.0 have been forgotten.

 

We've seen an increase of changes from feedback from Keith & the team, from PTS to forum discussions. It would mean a lot to see a response to the concerns from this part of your customer base and how you intend to address it, if anything. Thank you.

 

You can only speak for yourself and in that, you are just one voice and that is hardly grounds enough to get mentioned.. not unless the rest of the PvP community follow you and support the cause and then it can't be ignored.

 

Don't speak for others unless you got proof you do. (quoting from other links without anyone saying they want you to speak for them doesn't count)

[Fallensouls]

I guess you all need to learn to craft now instead of complaining. LOL Fortunately i have some crafters already thank goodness. Edited October 19, 2018 by Fallensouls