The PVP community has spoken...how does Keith respond?

[Jdast]

Things I am tired of:

 

1) People presuming to speak for me; (that's sarcasm by the way)

 

2) Because I only PvP 20% of the time, I don't care about the PvP community;

 

3) Being called a "White Knigh" when I am nothing of the sort. I play all aspects of the game, but apparently, because I don't meet the "PURE PVP" test, I am not allowed to comment.

 

Right now on the PTS, PvP-ers have it pretty well. That is math.

 

LOOK AT THE CRAFTING CHARGES. Or don/'t. And ride your pedestal of Dasty is a White Knight trying to defend the current costs.

 

Mathematically, absent changes to the PTS, PVP is flat out the second fastest way to gear. The fastest is to do a combo of all three (NIM OPS, PVE Dailies, and PvP).

 

#shocker

 

Dasty, the Grey Knight

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jdast

[KendraP]

I'll be honest with you bro, it's almost certainly from my raider days. That's part of the pull for a lot of Raiders I believe, taking gear by force, Not earning, not buying it, having some enemy standing between you and the gear and the only way you get that gear is by killing it. If you can't kill that boss, than you don't deserve that gear heh.

 

when i was raiding, my goal was completion - i wanted to beat the hardest bosses possible. the gear was just a means to that end. It wasn't, persay, the objective in and of itself. you could do some of the easier bosses to get the better gear and eventually beat the harder bosses (where the gear was at least useful).

 

without bosses that need the gear to beat it - why add more grind? I'd be fine with it despite this, if PvP and PvE weren't so intertwined that it's giving the puny MM community an inherent advantage in the opposing game mode.

 

I also feel like the carrot on the end of the stick is an important part of MMOs. It could be partially because I was a table top RPGer for so long and alot of mmos do tend to incorporate a similar mentality into the design. Getting better, getting bigger, getting stronger, getting more powerful.

 

I'm sure there are different reasons for different people as well naturally, but I find that when I am gearing, it doesn't really matter what I am doing, even if it's the same old thing, knowing that I'm working towards an improvement of some kind [even if the improvement isn't really all that big] it just makes everything more exciting.

 

Even now that I'm strictly a PVPer, I don't know why, but I still feel the same exact way. That said, however, I fully recognize that I am the odd man out, and that my opinion is safe to say in the vast minority.

 

i was never into the table top rpgs- i came from single player rpgs (primarily KOTOR 1 and 2) and got into the mmo aspect veerrry slowly.

 

Personally, I can do grinds... that have a point. my issue with the gear isn't even really the grind (that's a pain in the butt, and I think should be mitigated a bit because the players pvping are probably NOT the ones who enjoy prolonged grindfests to be competitive) but that the grind serves no purpose. I'm not going to stay BECAUSE OF a grind. In fact, it hurts my desire to stay. i can go to games that realize I have a 5 am - 3 pm job and can't necessarily be online for 15 hours a day grindfesting, but still want to have noticeable progress (not as much as someone who does have 15 hours mind you).

 

This last point is why I think other game types are on the rise in comparison to MMOs - the gamers that have money to spend are also those of us who have lives and commitments outside of the game.

 

At the end of the day, gearing or not, we're still going to be doing Warzones and Arenas, right? I was fully 248 geared out within about 2 weeks of it coming out, and all that time there has been no real way to improve, and yet, I'm still PVPing,but the more time that has passed, the less and less I feel the urge to play. Somedays I only do a few wzs and that's it. Part of that is due to cross factioning, that did take alot of the fun out of it for me, but I was already slowing down the game well before that.

 

I have no objection at all to going PVP gear, in fact I think it's the best way to go given the overwhelming prefernce in gearing that PVPers tend to hold. They don't want BIS gearing. For the sake of PVPers I hope they go with PVP gear or bolster. But, if they don't and it stays this way in terms of gearing, I may very well be the only PVPer who will be fine with it and actually get some real added enjoyment out of it. But, I'm not selfish enough to hope that's the way it goes. I want PVPers to be happy and what makes me happy isn't what makes them happy.

 

I cannot argue with your reasoning. I'm just a weirdo I guess heh

 

cross factioning didn't necessarily take the fun out of it for me - it was more the new "rating" system that did that. And yeah your last paragraph is what I was getting at in my first - I couldn't care one tiny bit about BiS. I only care about performing the bast I can in the time I have. You're no weirder than me - I just don't see the point in chasing after a carrot when I'm not hungry. Make me hungry (i.e. should this prove necessary to be competitive, which I highly doubt personally) and I'll chase it (unhappily though it may be).

 

To me, the carrot feels stale because there are plenty of things they could be doing rather than adding grinds that will be unnecessary at best and population decline inducing at worst.

Edited October 26, 2018 by KendraP

[Khevar]

Right now on the PTS, PvP-ers have it pretty well. That is math.

 

...

 

Mathematically, absent changes to the PTS, PVP is flast out the second fastest way to gear. The fastest is to do a combo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take your point to be that the grind is more or less shared between players, so it's "fair" in the sense that that almost everyone will need to take the long way around.

 

I haven't spent time on the PTS and cannot speak to this, so let's say that you're correct.

 

Completely separate from that point, don't you think it would be better if the introduction of a new tier of gear in 5.10 had a less extreme grind ?

 

Napkin math suggests that the grind from 248->258 is greater than the grind from 230->236->242->248. Seeing as how we're nearing the end of the 5.x lifecycle, there are going to be people that will say "eh, why bother" and skip it, choosing instead to wait for the 6.0 gear reset.

 

Yet, if some of the more onerous aspects of the new system were alleviated (e.g. the per-week increasing UC costs, the sky-high crafting resource costs, no upgrade path from 248, etc), it would have a side effect of "feeling less grindy" to the players. Which would have the effect of more people participating.

 

Wouldn't this be a better implementation of "new gear" during the waning end of 5.x?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Khevar

[Jdast]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take your point to be that the grind is more or less shared between players, so it's "fair" in the sense that that almost everyone will need to take the long way around.

 

I haven't spent time on the PTS so cannot speak to this, so let's say that you're correct.

 

Completely separate from that point, don't you think it would be better if the introduction of a new tier of gear in 5.10 had a less extreme grind ?

 

Napkin math suggests that the grind from 248->258 is greater than the grind from 230->236->242->248. Seeing as how we're nearing the end of the 5.x lifecycle, there are going to be people that will say "eh, why bother" and skip it, choosing instead to wait for the 6.0 gear reset.

 

Yet, if some of the more onerous aspects of the new system were alleviated (e.g. the per-week increasing UC costs, the sky-high crafting resource costs, etc), it would have a side effect of "feeling less grindy" to the players. Which would have the effect of more people participating.

 

Wouldn't this be a better implementation of "new gear" during the waning end of 5.x?

 

I can and do agree with 100% of what you say. But so-called "pure PvPers" are trying to have it both ways.

 

On one hand they say the grind is horrrific. On the other hand, that shouldn't matter as long as there is parity because of Ilvl grind. Let's just take CMT's. It currently costs 25 CMTs for the lowest level of upgrade of 0.3%.

 

Do I think the grind should be less? Depends on when 6.0 arrives. But for PvPers to say that they got the short end of the stick vis a vis PvE-ers-- is flat out false as of the current costs on the PTS.

 

Dasty

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jdast

[Khevar]

Do I think the grind should be less? Depends on when 6.0 arrives. But for PvPers to say that they got the short end of the stick vis a vis PvE-ers-- is flat out false as of the current costs on the PTS.

I get what you're saying.

 

Although, it would be fair to say that anyone that PvPs and runs NM ops will be able to get an early gear advantage. This is one of the unfortunate side effects of expertise being removed -- gear grind cannot be separately balanced.

 

Hopefully bolster is raised to 248 (or even 252) -- it would pretty much alleviate this issue.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Khevar

[Jdast]

I get what you're saying.

 

Although, it would be fair to say that anyone that PvPs and runs NM ops will be able to get an early gear advantage. This is one of the unfortunate side effects of expertise being removed -- gear grind cannot be separately balanced.

 

Hopefully bolster is raised to 248 (or even 252) -- it would pretty much alleviate this issue.

 

Fair point. I'm on record as saying PvP bolster should be increased to 252!

 

You're such a softie.

 

Dasty

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jdast

[TUXs]

The current producer has not only continued but expanded upon the previous producer's pyramid tier scheme known as "Galactic Command". Under the current producer the following was rolled out:

 

1. Expensive new augments which required farming Ranked PVP for crafting materials or purchasing cartel store gear to auction for credits to purchase the materials and/or the augments themselves.

 

2. Update 5.5. United Forces which saw all West Coast servers merged into a East Coast server then waited to the last possible moment to inform everyone about it.

 

3. Upcoming Update 5.10: This Holiday Season grind for more rep, more currencies, and attempt to complete a master (nightmare) mode version of an existing operation. All for the carrot incentive in the form of higher level gear.

 

Granted, Galactic Grind became easier, although unintentionally in the form of a daily and weekly bug which saw certain planetary missions yield 1133cxp each.

All valid and good points...I'm just trying to be nice...

[Andryah]

I get what you're saying.

 

Although, it would be fair to say that anyone that PvPs and runs NM ops will be able to get an early gear advantage. This is one of the unfortunate side effects of expertise being removed -- gear grind cannot be separately balanced.

 

Hopefully bolster is raised to 248 (or even 252) -- it would pretty much alleviate this issue.

 

Bolster most likely will be raised to 248-252. The studio being silent on what they plan for bolster adjustments is just begging to be trolled by PvPers in the forum and elsewhere. It also leaves them open for broadband trolling.. because in the absence of this small piece of information... we have a small number of PvPers (and a few PvEers) doing their very best to troll the studio over the gear by conflating disaster scenarios that actually only exist in their heads, and demand the studio step back and follow player demands.

 

As to your earlier comment above about is it appropriate to make the grind for 252/258 gear worse then it was for 246/248....... well.. it is always debatable if a new tier of gear is needed/wanted late in the life cycle of an expac (in this case 5.x). That said... it is fairly normal for BiS tiered gear to subject players to diminishing returns in MMOs... so I really don't see the issue with this (other then at this point on PTS... clearly from an effort and resources perspective crafted gear is by far a bigger grind then any other route). I'm with Grim on the BiS degree of difficulty perspective.... it should NOT be easy to get a new tier of BiS gear in an MMO. That is simply not normal unless the MMO is essentially gearless to begin with (which does not apply to this MMO, or most MMOs).

 

People seem to continue to forget that this gear is not actually needed... just craved and desired by some. And you know what.. for the player that assesses the gear is not a good return on effort... they simply don't chase it. And for the player who craves or desires it... the pathways are multiple, are pretty clearly defined (though apparently not properly tuned yet on PTS), and is there for the cravers to chase.

 

When a given MMO player complains, rants, and demands new gear be easier for them personally to acquire personally (with faux declarations that they are speaking for every other player) , and that they simply must have said gear (even though their is not clear technical need for it so far).... THAT is behaving in an entitled manner. For the player who loves to play this card of gimme gimme.... I have no sympathy.

 

And to be clear.. my assessment is this gear is not worth the grind. In fact... this is a discussion in our guild right now as we are trying to size the actual need for our members, vs the effort and distraction from other activities it produces in a group setting like a guild. We are about 50/50 on it right now, guild wise..... mainly because we know junk greens from a new expac will be better (except for set bonus) as soon as 6.0 drops. Even if 6.0 is many months away... it does not change our analysis... because again.. no content in game actually requires this new gear, which is at best about 5% better then the current BiS.

 

In summary... yes.. BiS gear should be difficult to earn, not fall from trees. Further, each player needs to assess for themselves if said gear is worth the time and effort to obtain... just like every other similar case in the last almost 7 years. Just because something is released into an MMO.. does not mean every player needs it or will chase it.. in fact that is pretty much the norm in MMOs.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Andryah

[Khevar]

In summary... yes.. BiS gear should be difficult to earn, not fall from trees. Further, each player needs to assess for themselves if said gear is worth the time and effort to obtain... just like every other similar case in the last almost 7 years. Just because something is released into an MMO.. does not mean every player needs it or will chase it.. in fact that is pretty much the norm in MMOs.

I don't disagree with this idea in general. It's just that their implementation is poor.

 

Difficult to earn can be "challenging and interesting", it can be "fun and rewarding", or can be "lengthy and time consuming". What we have here is an example of the latter.

 

You're quite correct about the value of the gear and it's diminishing returns. I'm happy to skip the 258 grind. I'll be playing more or less as I would as without a new tier of gear. It's not something I'm worried about.

 

That said, I do find myself critical of the decision on the part of the studio. How many other players are going to say "meh", when it comes to this new gear grind and skip it? Wouldn't it be a better if such a system were added that were either "challenging and interesting", or "fun and rewarding"?

 

Wouldn't it be better if more people wanted to participate?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Khevar

[Andryah]

That said, I do find myself critical of the decision on the part of the studio. How many other players are going to say "meh", when it comes to this new gear grind and skip it? Wouldn't it be a better if such a system were added that were either "challenging and interesting", or "fun and rewarding"?

 

Wouldn't it be better if more people wanted to participate?

 

Well.. fun is always a subjective metric with MMO players... One persons fun is another persons nightmare... so I would not evaluate the new gear on this basis.. precisely because in general in MMOs.. BiS gear is never held by anywhere near a majority of players. If anything SWTOR has been too generous with BiS gear mechanics in the past.

 

Challenging .... again a subjective metric.. but I am positive there will be players who love the challenge of new gear, even if it is rigorous by design. And others will hate it because they have very narrow and specific views on what = challenge. Case in point.. the PvP only player who sees competitive PvP as the only true challenge for them, and will rail on anything that disturbs their status quo.

 

As for people participating..... 5.10 is not simply a new gear tier... so maybe players should keep their eye on the other aspects of what is coming in 5.10, rather then fixate angst on some new gear that is not even compulsory for any of the content in the game as of 5.10.

 

When gear is not needed, but is added to the game... that is specifically to give a narrow set of players something to grind and feel challenged on. Clearly... getting this gear will be a challenge... and we have some players that love one kind of challenge, hate another kind, and want the world of their MMO to revolve around them I guess... hence much arguing and disagreement between players on unfinished content only now being revealed on PTS.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Andryah

[TUXs]

When gear is not needed, but is added to the game... that is specifically to give a narrow set of players something to grind and feel challenged on.

"Narrow" meaning everyone that does any group activity at all as well as every person who PvPs?

[Khevar]

When gear is not needed, but is added to the game... that is specifically to give a narrow set of players something to grind and feel challenged on.

Which is exactly my point.

 

Why not provide a system that would interest a WIDER set of players?

Edited October 26, 2018 by Khevar

[Andryah]

Which is exactly my point.

 

Why not provide a system that would interest a WIDER set of players?

 

Actually.... most of 5.10 will have appeal to a wide range of players, so I really don't see the problem... especially with the change in bolster coming in 5.10 ** ... which should largely mitigate PvP concerns, except for those that simply won't PvP unless they have the best of the best at all times. I'm just not going to get on the "gimme gear" band wagon when discussing BiS in an MMO. Most players in MMOs never actually need BiS... "want" =/= "need" ... but some will go over mountains, in the snow, barefoot... to chase it though.. and for them... this addition will be of interest.

 

** http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=955569

Edited October 26, 2018 by Andryah

[Khevar]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=955569

Glad to see a response on that topic.

 

Hopefully more details are forthcoming soon.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Khevar

[Lithdox]

Who gives a S**t what the PvP community has to say. This is a story driven MMO, not a first person shooter. The Devs have spent the better part of the last year trying to placate the PvP community, much to the detriment of the game. Endless Nerfs, the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% drop rate for gear from Command Crates, just to name a couple of the changes implemented because of the PvP moaners. What they need to do is get back to creating an excellent story, and stop trying to please the PvP community, because it is impossible to do so. Their favorite past time is b**ching.

 

 

Wow this is one of the most triggered forum posts I have ever seen.

[Lhancelot]

Who gives a S**t what the PvP community has to say. This is a story driven MMO, not a first person shooter. The Devs have spent the better part of the last year trying to placate the PvP community, much to the detriment of the game. Endless Nerfs, the .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% drop rate for gear from Command Crates, just to name a couple of the changes implemented because of the PvP moaners. What they need to do is get back to creating an excellent story, and stop trying to please the PvP community, because it is impossible to do so. Their favorite past time is b**ching.

 

In reality every facet of the game and all types of players feel cheated. Just ask them.

 

Story-mode people cry the story is stupid and stale/lacks depth now compared to the original chapters.

 

PVE players hate how no new FPs have been created, and PVPers hate how there's no incentives for lower tier PVP and the lack of gear customization and the steep gear grind sucks.

 

You have to live in a fairly small rabbit hole if you feel as if only your particular area of the game is suffering.

 

You ought to open your eyes and recognize the entire game's population feels neglected, not just your story-mode single player pals and yourself.

 

The majority of changes to the gear had nothing to do with PVPers btw, in fact most PVPers left the game after 5.0 dropped because it was so grindy and alt-unfriendly. You don't know what you are talking about tbh.

[olagatonjedi]

I get what you're saying.

 

Although, it would be fair to say that anyone that PvPs and runs NM ops will be able to get an early gear advantage. This is one of the unfortunate side effects of expertise being removed -- gear grind cannot be separately balanced.

 

Hopefully bolster is raised to 248 (or even 252) -- it would pretty much alleviate this issue.

Gasp - people who play all content available have a speed advantage vs those who self-impose a limitation.

 

Thats SO unfair, right? /sarcasm

[Totemdancer]

Gasp - people who play all content available have a speed advantage vs those who self-impose a limitation.

 

Thats SO unfair, right? /sarcasm

 

Not everyone is capable of doing MM ops. I would say less than 10% of the player base are capable, maybe less than 10%.

So why make a whole gearing system for them at the detriment of pvp or other players who are in the majority

Edited October 27, 2018 by Totemdancer

[olagatonjedi]

Not everyone is capable of doing MM ops. I would say less than 10% of the player base are capable, maybe less than 10%.

So why make a whole gearing system for them at the detriment of pvp or other players who are in the majority

Its not at the deteiment. Its a reward for doing ALL content. Most players dont do certain content by choice, not because its not available.

[Totemdancer]

Its not at the deteiment. Its a reward for doing ALL content. Most players dont do certain content by choice, not because its not available.

 

So, if a MM player who also pvps, walks into a pvp match and decimates people because of better gear, that’s not detrimental?

[olagatonjedi]

So, if a MM player who also pvps, walks into a pvp match and decimates people because of better gear, that’s not detrimental?

Are there two completely seperate worlds of PvE and PvP, or are they intertwined? They are both part of the same game, and have been since the games release. PvPers come into the game knowing they can PvE and PvP if they so choose, so the only detriment is self-created by not player both parts of the game. I dont expect to build up my stronghold and be tops in prestige if i CHOOSE not to collect decorations, or run the content or spend the currency to collect decorations. I cant fault BW for that, only myself.

Edited October 27, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[Totemdancer]

Are there two completely seperate worlds of PvE and PvP, or are they intertwined? They are both part of the same game, and have been since the games release. PvPers come into the game knowing they can PvE and PvP if they so choose, so the only detriment is self-created by not player both parts of the game. I dont expect to build up my stronghold and be tops in prestige if i CHOOSE not to collect decorations, or run the content or spend the currency to collect decorations. I cant fault BW for that, only myself.

 

You asked a question and I answered. Now answer mine please. If a MM player walks into pvp and destroys people because he’s been able to get a gear advantage that’s not available to most people, how is that not detrimental to pvp?

[olagatonjedi]

You asked a question and I answered. Now answer mine please. If a MM player walks into pvp and destroys people because he’s been able to get a gear advantage that’s not available to most people, how is that not detrimental to pvp?

1. MM content is available to everyone at level 70.

 

2. Yes, its fair that someone who completes more content has more opportunities to gain resources faster than someone who does not, or chooses not to.

 

Your question in a sinpler form:

Should a player who completes a quest get more money than a player who does nothing?

The answer is yes.

 

You dont agree?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

cross factioning didn't necessarily take the fun out of it for me - it was more the new "rating" system that did that. And yeah your last paragraph is what I was getting at in my first - I couldn't care one tiny bit about BiS. I only care about performing the bast I can in the time I have. You're no weirder than me - I just don't see the point in chasing after a carrot when I'm not hungry. Make me hungry (i.e. should this prove necessary to be competitive, which I highly doubt personally) and I'll chase it (unhappily though it may be).

 

To me, the carrot feels stale because there are plenty of things they could be doing rather than adding grinds that will be unnecessary at best and population decline inducing at worst.

 

Bro, I totally respect your opinions on all of it, like I said, I can't argue your reasoning. I don't blame anyone for any of it. Everyone has their own perspectives, their likes and dislikes, and their purposes aren't always the same. Someone who just does story and heroics, they have zero need for BIS gear so why should they concern themselves with that side of things if they don't want to?

 

From everything you have expressed on the forums, I totally respect why you feel the way you do, you are a group player, you care about maximizing the guild to play opportunities, you want to be able to take your people with you and have options open for that kind of style of play and emphasis. I know you are not against this because you think things should come easy, your a get what you earn kinda guy I think, you just want to be able to do it with your people and have their ability to progress not be tied to things that you are they simply just not care to do or about. You're a leader and you want to be able to lead your people in an environment not detrimental to your playstyle that forces you to play aspects of the game you are your people are not about or that will lead to a disadvantage if you don't.

 

Far as the raiding thing goes, I think perhaps I worded some of my statements poorly as I did not mean to suggest that raiders only care about gear. You don't do NiM for gear, you do it for the accomplishment and bragging rights, or as in my case you don't have a choice because that's what your raid leader tells you you are doing But I do think it is something that to a lot of raiders is a classic part of it.

 

raid·er

a person who attacks an enemy in the enemy's territory; a marauder.

synonyms: robber, burglar, thief, housebreaker, plunderer, pillager, looter, marauder; More

attacker, assailant, invader / a person who attacks business premises in order to steal.

 

Different players have different preferences and likes and dislikes. There's no one size fits all when it comes to that.

 

If ya like carrots, ya don't mind going after em!

Edited October 27, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Totemdancer]

1. MM content is available to everyone at level 70.

 

2. Yes, its fair that someone who completes more content has more opportunities to gain resources faster than someone who does not, or chooses not to.

 

Your question in a sinpler form:

Should a player who completes a quest get more money than a player who does nothing?

The answer is yes.

 

You dont agree?

 

And what if you can’t play MM ops?

Why should that allow you to be disadvantaged in pvp?

 

Honestly, I think you are just being contentious for the sake of it, like you usually are,

You obviously don’t care about pvp or pvpers having a skill vs skill experience.

 

I’m not going to keep arguing with you so you.

I’ve spat the hook out. Good luck fishing.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Totemdancer