asiasusanna Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The wait and see line of thought seems to be most applicable then! If only people could leave the "and preach doom and gloom in the meanwhile" out of the "wait and see" that would be truly wonderful. I was never one to go for the extremes, or to fight needlessly (could explain why I mostly do neutral characters in terms of Light/Dark decisions). Anyway, conversations like this thread are pointless, at least until we get to 5.10 and beyond. Good luck and happy hunting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Don't get me wrong, I think it's the best way to do it given what we have...I was just pointing out the flaw I see in it vs. an in-game poll...not that that's really possible either, not practically at least. I still think ingame polls would give the devs much insight to the general feel of their playerbase on any particular issue. But since we don't have that and likely won't ever have that, we must do with what we can have. And I am not saying the poll I made is flawless and perfect, but I believe it does give an estimate representation of how players generally feel about this particular subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreget Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Too bad the decided to go back to fractions.I liked the Alliance thing. To be practical.To recruit people needeed for victory no matter republic or empire. My sith warrior has changed pragmatic guy from hateful psychopath. And now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IoNonSoEVero Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 If you have a city of 250.000 inhabitants and you only poll 2.500 people, then you have 247.500 people who have not spoken. And yet, we hear daily about such polls, we daily trust such polls to be an estimate representative of how people generally think and feel about a specific subject. Why then can't it be the same here? Because it doesn't suit your line of thought? Because in those cases the poll is closed and is only answered by a chosen sample; it's not left open to all to respond if they're interested. Actually, I don't think anyone trusts them as "an estimate representative of how people generally think and feel." They are a curiosity. The only widespread polls that are usually considered valid as overall all have strict controls on integrity, such as the Gallup polls and Nielsen ratings. I know you're very happy that this poll result fits your own narrative about what you think people in this game want, but you'll have to forgive others if they don't feel that an anonymous poll with no integrity standards that only had 675 respondents that agree with you, out of 80K registered users and countless SWTOR forum users who saw it, means much of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodrac Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I'm planning to go on PTS, to make my final decisions on anything, because really they will have to make something for people of the Alliance or lose some Subs, and have some people just not take part in anymore of this terrible Empire vs. Republic storyline. The story won't be on PTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) Because in those cases the poll is closed and is only answered by a chosen sample; it's not left open to all to respond if they're interested. Actually, I don't think anyone trusts them as "an estimate representative of how people generally think and feel." They are a curiosity. The only widespread polls that are usually considered valid as overall all have strict controls on integrity, such as the Gallup polls and Nielsen ratings. I know you're very happy that this poll result fits your own narrative about what you think people in this game want, but you'll have to forgive others if they don't feel that an anonymous poll with no integrity standards that only had 675 respondents that agree with you, out of 80K registered users and countless SWTOR forum users who saw it, means much of anything. In that case, let us wait and see how successful Jedi Under Siege is going to be, because I am really done with this arguing. I am convinced the return to the Empire vs Republic is going to bring SWTOR much needed good, because happiness about the return to that theme is the most widespread commentary I have heard across various platforms, including these forums, Reddit and Discord, the poll only reaffirming my initial thoughts. Edited October 18, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IoNonSoEVero Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 In that case, let us wait and see how successful Jedi Under Siege is going to be, because I am really done with this arguing. I am convinced the return to the Empire vs Republic is going to bring SWTOR much needed good, because happiness about the return to that theme is the most widespread commentary I have heard across various platforms, including these forums, Reddit and Discord, the poll only reaffirming my initial thoughts. Yes, a Discord of Empire traditionalists is happy, who would think. *eyeroll.* Anyway, I hope you're right that it will bring good to the game, and that it's able to weather those of us who will no longer be giving Bioware our business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) Yes, a Discord of Empire traditionalists is happy, who would think. *eyeroll.* Anyway, I hope you're right that it will bring good to the game, and that it's able to weather those of us who will no longer be giving Bioware our business. You have a general Darth Malgus Server RP Discord, you have a Republic RP Discord, you have a Jedi RP Discord, you have a Neutral Side RP Discord, you have a Pirate RP Discord, you have a Mandalorian RP Discord, you have Sith RP Discord, do I need to continue the list? Or perhaps I should invite you to all these Discords so you can see for yourself, hmm? Across all those Discords I have seen the same general sentiment expressed, not only in the Spheres of Influence Discord. But, I already can guess you won't believe me anyway, so I am wasting my fingers. Edited October 18, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBaal Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I can accept the alliance going down, i can even accept becoming some kind of second in command. As long as it is well written, class specific and gives us the choice to do it either willingly or begrudgingly. The most extreme example from the imperial side would be the Sith Inquisitor / ET - Dark side combination becoming just another lonely Sith, doing the dirty works for the Sith leftovers. After beeing a member of the dark council and emperor of the alliance it'd be a slap in the face and i'd hate it to the core, no matter how great the rest of the story would be. But if the player gets the choice, for example during a conversation with Lana, to express that the decimated alliance teaming up with the empire is just the first step to at least regain the the seat on the dark council (Alliance as the new powerbase) i could live with it. Especially if this promise would be fulfilled within 2019, with the player, no matter which class, getting a powerfull position within the empire (for example a minister for non force users, dark council member for force users). This would work for all imperial classes and require only two different titles. Also i expect Accina to be dead, either she died on Iokath or offscreen and gets mentioned in case the player teamed up with her. One way or another the Sith empire most likely has some serious infighting going on and the alliance commander / former emperor might play a role in this during 6.0 (imperial story line, works for loyalist and saboteur path) On the republic side i think it is more complicated. Not so much if the player became a peacekeeper, but i can't picture the republic taking back a tyrant into their ranks. Propably they will go down the "the republic is desperate for help no matter from who" route and the former dark side pub sees this as an opportunity to seize control and make the new chancelor (who i expect to meet during the pub story line in 6.0) his puppet. While the peacekeeper route is just the former commander returning to his roots and saving the republic...again and again and again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I've given up. Those who want to return to Empire vs. Republic will win anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) In that case, let us wait and see how successful Jedi Under Siege is going to be, because I am really done with this arguing. I am convinced the return to the Empire vs Republic is going to bring SWTOR much needed good, because happiness about the return to that theme is the most widespread commentary I have heard across various platforms, including these forums, Reddit and Discord, the poll only reaffirming my initial thoughts. You are absolutely entitled to your own convictions and conclusions. However, no informal polling, or sampling of discussion across the internet, will validate your convictions and conclusions for others. Most of the push back you are getting over your poll is derived from this fundamental fact. Your own personal convictions and conclusions should be sufficient for you personally. Even if everyone else disagrees with you, that does not invalidate your personal views in your personal context (which honestly is all that matters). I'm glad to see you excited and positive about the shift in story theme. I really am. But I encourage you to stop trying to over sell it to others as all it will get you is grief from the less positive minded forum members. In any community.. "it takes a village applies". AND.. every village has positive voices, negative voices, neutral voices, and even the obligatory "village idiot" to make a village whole and complete. Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyFlynn Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 At the end of the day, people are going to feel the way they feel and the more you try and prove their sentiments aren't widely shared in other branches of the community, the more they'll dig their heels in. Besides, it's fine for them to not be happy with this situation, just as it's fine for others to be happy about this but neither side should assume their stance is a majority. On top of that, each section of the community has its own regular crowd and tone. On Twitter, I'm seeing mostly enthusiasm. Posts of people who bailed on KOTFE/ET due to the storyline but who are now happy to return with the premise of Empire vs. Republic. It would seem the majority of the Reddit crowd shares those sentiments. On these forums, however, there is a more vocal group of players who are unhappy with these changes, which isn't surprising; while for the whole of the internet and life it's true that people are quicker and louder to speak up when they're unhappy about something, that is especially true on these forums, always has been. None of the groups are more representative of the community than others though. Different crowds, different voices, but none of them any less valid. I guess in the end the numbers BW receives will show whether this is a good or bad move. I personally believe it is a good move, even if some are unhappy, and I do think there is a majority that prefers to go back to 'traditional' Star Wars, thus Empire vs. the Republic. That's just my opinion and I may very well be proven wrong. Yll, I share your enthusiasm and I look forward to 5.10 but whatever battle is going on in this thread, it's a lost one. Celebrate your excitement and share it with the likeminded crowd, and leave the rest for what it is. I get it, you're thrilled and you'd love to see every other SWTOR player feel as fantastic as you do about this (I would too, I like it when people are happy) but that won't happen and, honestly... remembering that you weren't hyped about KOTFE/ET, I don't think any amount of polls, opinion pieces, communities praising that expac etc. would have changed your mind about that. Just as you won't change the minds of these folks no matter what 'proof' and examples you bring forward. We'll have our fun with the patch and at best we can hope others will give it a chance before condemning it fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) Yll, I share your enthusiasm and I look forward to 5.10 but whatever battle is going on in this thread, it's a lost one. Celebrate your excitement and share it with the likeminded crowd, and leave the rest for what it is. I get it, you're thrilled and you'd love to see every other SWTOR player feel as fantastic as you do about this (I would too, I like it when people are happy) but that won't happen and, honestly... remembering that you weren't hyped about KOTFE/ET, I don't think any amount of polls, opinion pieces, communities praising that expac etc. would have changed your mind about that. Just as you won't change the minds of these folks no matter what 'proof' and examples you bring forward. We'll have our fun with the patch and at best we can hope others will give it a chance before condemning it fully. Very much agreed, hence why I understand now why so many people I know steer clear from the SWTOR forums. Best is to follow their example and celebrate with those who are happy and express a positive attitude to what is coming! No need to sully my own good mood by the gloom of others ^_^ Even if everyone else disagrees with you, that does not invalidate your personal views in your personal context (which honestly is all that matters). If it were everyone else disagreeing with me, I might have taken a step back and rethought my position. But it's blatantly clear the opposite is actually the case. Nonetheless, perhaps I could put in a good word for the pro-Alliance people next time I ask Charles Boyd a lore question over Twitter! He's been a great sport answering those questions and seems to listen to the players Edited October 18, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 If it were everyone else disagreeing with me, I might have taken a step back and rethought my position. But it's blatantly clear the opposite is actually the case.Right?! Someone has been busy today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Right?! Someone has been busy today. Too busy if you ask me xD Might have spent the time more productively, but ah well, what to do when you're enthusiastic about something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Too busy if you ask me xD Might have spent the time more productively, but ah well, what to do when you're enthusiastic about something Not you silly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Not you silly... Oh, oops, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracofish Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 For me it depends. If current companions and LIs are essentially ignored in order to bring in new blood and have nothing to do with the story ill get bored fast. I hate nothing more then constant pushing aside of already trusted allies and being forced to go on adventures with new ones. I want to adventure with my chars LIs and friends and for them to have a voice not just be mute standing around in cut scenes etc. This is one of my many concerns as well... Well, I posted the poll on the SWTOR forums multiple times as well. So votes from here also must have come in. I don't know if it changes anything, but it should create a more random sample group in my opinion. I'm still waiting for the "I could be open to it...if it's done well" option...which I suspect more than a few of your respondents would have chosen. So, until that happens, consider me Not Voting. You have a general Darth Malgus Server RP Discord, you have a Republic RP Discord, you have a Jedi RP Discord, you have a Neutral Side RP Discord, you have a Pirate RP Discord, you have a Mandalorian RP Discord, you have Sith RP Discord, do I need to continue the list? Or perhaps I should invite you to all these Discords so you can see for yourself, hmm? Across all those Discords I have seen the same general sentiment expressed, not only in the Spheres of Influence Discord. But, I already can guess you won't believe me anyway, so I am wasting my fingers. Just wanted to point out that I'm part of a Discord server too...and we're not happy with the changes for the exact reasons I've said over numerous threads. We could be down with it...if the story made a lick of sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) I'm still waiting for the "I could be open to it...if it's done well" option...which I suspect more than a few of your respondents would have chosen. So, until that happens, consider me Not Voting. That is understandable, but the poll can't be edited at this point anymore (I think). Besides, it has given the answers it needed to give, albeit I do understand the point you make and find myself in agreement. If the return to the Empire vs Republic narrative or a return to our original faction is handled with bad writing, then naturally I won't be pleased with it either. But to me it seems that good story is something that we expect for all the story content we get anyway, hence why I didn't think it would be necessary to state it explicitly but, I do understand the point you're making and agree with it. Just wanted to point out that I'm part of a Discord server too...and we're not happy with the changes for the exact reasons I've said over numerous threads. We could be down with it...if the story made a lick of sense... Didn't say that all the Discords were happy about it, I was merely countering the point that it was one Discord server who was happy with the return to the Empire vs Republic narrative. As I have found that roleplayers (the type of roleplayers that take on roles within this fictional universe and play out story their own stories with their guildmates or other players with their own made up characters, events and plots that are not tied to the main story of SWTOR) generally, and I stress generally so it doesn't naturally apply to all roleplayers, seem to be happy about the return to the game's core theme. Hence why I was listing those RP Discord servers, as you'll find the sentiment there is generally the same. Edited October 18, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlameYOL Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 If it were everyone else disagreeing with me, I might have taken a step back and rethought my position. But it's blatantly clear the opposite is actually the case. Nonetheless, perhaps I could put in a good word for the pro-Alliance people next time I ask Charles Boyd a lore question over Twitter! He's been a great sport answering those questions and seems to listen to the players I have a few questions I really wish I could ask him about KOTFE/KOTET and the Traitor Story arc, is he responsive on Forum PMs as well or only on Twitter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) I have a few questions I really wish I could ask him about KOTFE/KOTET and the Traitor Story arc, is he responsive on Forum PMs as well or only on Twitter? Your best bet would be asking him over Twitter, but if you'd like I could ask the questions on your behalf! If you wish, you can post them here in a reply or otherwise send them to me in a PM If you're interested in a list of all the questions I asked and got answered by Mr. Boyd so far, here you go: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=955096 But I now realise you saw the list already Edited October 18, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallensouls Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) I wont be i just unsubbed. I loved the KOTFE and KOTET and was looking forward to fighting more of the old enemies of Zakkul . Now we got to go back to jedi vs sith. The new expansion is about going to a ancient planet with old jedi ruins, hmm just like Tython , how JJ Abrams of Bioware, to replay tython over again in a new shell.Total bull crap. I unsubbed im not paying for what I already did in this game years ago. But the absolute worst part is how Bioware has them just want to give up and crawl back to the Empire or Republic? Are you kidding me?? And how do you put the Outlander back into a conflict that is over theology which you learn in the eternal throne is all wrong? The jedi are wrong, the Sith are wrong, Valkorian , Marr and Satele showed him/ her that the power of the force is not light or dark so how do you go back with the story to fighiing over whether light or dark is better? That is why i totally disagree with him or her returning to the previous factions, your character is beyond them now. That will ruin what is already established for your character. Its making us go back 12 steps from our Ruling the galaxy. And I am not fine with that. IF anything you would fight both factions for betraying you and conquer them as a Emperor would. Also why the heck would my followers leave? Just because my fleet got magically blown up by a ship that barely worked? No those people left their previous faction because they believed in you there is no way they would return to the factions they left for joining the outlander. Plus why cant you use Iokath to make a whole new fleet just like the Star Forge you would have a new fleet in very little time? That is a huge plot hole. The whole thing isn't thought out well and Bioware might have killed the experience for more than a few of us this time. And they blew up my odessen throne which really ticked me off. Edited October 19, 2018 by Fallensouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracofish Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I wont be i just unsubbed. I loved the KOTFE and KOTET and was looking forward to fighting more of the old enemies of Zakkul . Now we got to go back to jedi vs sith. The new expansion is about going to a ancient planet with old jedi ruins, hmm just like Tython , how JJ Abrams of Bioware, to replay tython over again in a new shell.Total bull crap. I unsubbed im not paying for what I already did in this game years ago. But the absolute worst part is how Bioware has them just want to give up and crawl back to the Empire or Republic? Are you kidding me?? And how do you put the Outlander back into a conflict that is over theology which you learn in the eternal throne is all wrong? The jedi are wrong, the Sith are wrong, Valkorian , Marr and Satele showed him/ her that the power of the force is not light or dark so how do you go back with the story to fighiing over whether light or dark is better? That is why i totally disagree with him or her returning to the previous factions, your character is beyond them now. That will ruin what is already established for your character. Its making us go back 12 steps from our Ruling the galaxy. And I am not fine with that. IF anything you would fight both factions for betraying you and conquer them as a Emperor would. Also why the heck would my followers leave? Just because my fleet got magically blown up by a ship that barely worked? No those people left their previous faction because they believed in you there is no way they would return to the factions they left for joining the outlander. Plus why cant you use Iokath to make a whole new fleet just like the Star Forge you would have a new fleet in very little time? That is a huge plot hole. The whole thing isn't thought out well and Bioware might have killed the experience for more than a few of us this time. And they blew up my odessen throne which really ticked me off. Really good points here. I'm not ready to unsub yet because of my writing...but just wanted to say you have some great points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingkittie Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 And they blew up my odessen throne which really ticked me off. Oh my - I haven't been in there since Nathema. They DID blow it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 I wont be i just unsubbed. I loved the KOTFE and KOTET and was looking forward to fighting more of the old enemies of Zakkul . Now we got to go back to jedi vs sith. The new expansion is about going to a ancient planet with old jedi ruins, hmm just like Tython , how JJ Abrams of Bioware, to replay tython over again in a new shell.Total bull crap. I unsubbed im not paying for what I already did in this game years ago. But the absolute worst part is how Bioware has them just want to give up and crawl back to the Empire or Republic? Are you kidding me?? And how do you put the Outlander back into a conflict that is over theology which you learn in the eternal throne is all wrong? The jedi are wrong, the Sith are wrong, Valkorian , Marr and Satele showed him/ her that the power of the force is not light or dark so how do you go back with the story to fighiing over whether light or dark is better? That is why i totally disagree with him or her returning to the previous factions, your character is beyond them now. That will ruin what is already established for your character. Its making us go back 12 steps from our Ruling the galaxy. And I am not fine with that. IF anything you would fight both factions for betraying you and conquer them as a Emperor would. Also why the heck would my followers leave? Just because my fleet got magically blown up by a ship that barely worked? No those people left their previous faction because they believed in you there is no way they would return to the factions they left for joining the outlander. Plus why cant you use Iokath to make a whole new fleet just like the Star Forge you would have a new fleet in very little time? That is a huge plot hole. The whole thing isn't thought out well and Bioware might have killed the experience for more than a few of us this time. And they blew up my odessen throne which really ticked me off. Ossus, a great planet with amazing lore that fans of the Knights of the Old Republic series love and cherish. I am amazingly happy that we're finally going to see that planet ingame. Also, Jedi Under Siege is only a story update, not an expansion. But luckily the expansion will continue with the Empire vs Republic war, which is amazing and wonderful. After all, that's the core theme of SWTOR The Outlander should have never received the opportunity to claim any throne, they never should have been given the option to become Emperor or Empress. From a story writing perspective that is putting yourself into a corner you barely can get out of. So many people criticised this point and therefore I am very happy that Bioware corrected their mistake by destroying the Gravestone (an OP superweapon, blegh), the Eternal Fleet (even worse than the Gravestone) and the throne in the Nathema Conspiracy FP. Yes, the Outlander (what a ridiculous title btw) should go back to the core theme of SWTOR, which is the story of the war between the Jedi and the Sith, the Galactic Republic and the Sith Empire. That is what players fell in love with and with the tons of criticism that KotFE and KotET got, that's what players want to see. I am staying Subbed, because I am excited and happy with where the story is going and I know there are many, many players who feel likewise. I am sorry that you have felt the need to unsub, but at least I am comforted by the thought that I know that for every single player that unsubs because of the return to Empire vs Republic, 2 old players will return Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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