Changes to Gearing through Galactic Command

[Radzkie]

Its simple.

 

When I ding a level, I should get something. The randomness should be between something useful and something special.

 

The dichotomy between your game theory and the reality for me as a player is you think 'something' simply means 'anything'.

 

Orange shells are not something.

 

Greens and blues that are no better than my current 208/216 gear are not something.

 

Reputation tokens for things I maxed out 2 years ago are not something.

 

I agree with this part of the post.

 

The junk just rubs salt in the wound for me. "Oh you got a green? Well here have an ugly empty shell and a rep token you don't want...that makes everything better right?... right?"

Edited December 14, 2016 by Radzkie

[Perihelion]

I'm sure whatever change is upcoming will be inadequate and underwhelming. I lost faith.

[LordArtemis]

I tend to agree with those folks that want armor returned to hard content. I think there is little harm in doing so, and a great deal of benefit to it.

 

I think CXP is great for casual players and should remain in place with a few adjustments....but I think I am coming around to the thinking that it might be best to simply restore the "carrot", so to speak, for the most difficult content, hard mode flashpoints and Ops.

 

I do not participate in this kind of content. But the folks that do would likely appreciate the change IMO.

 

The command system would simply SUPPLEMENT their chance to get gear, and I feel that would be a win win for all.

[DanNV]

I tend to agree with those folks that want armor returned to hard content. I think there is little harm in doing so, and a great deal of benefit to it.

 

I think CXP is great for casual players and should remain in place with a few adjustments....but I think I am coming around to the thinking that it might be best to simply restore the "carrot", so to speak, for the most difficult content, hard mode flashpoints and Ops.

 

I do not participate in this kind of content. But the folks that do would likely appreciate the change IMO.

 

The command system would simply SUPPLEMENT their chance to get gear, and I feel that would be a win win for all.

 

Yep, it would. Add back the loot tables for bosses and gear tokens. Leave CXP for those who want to chase achievements these fools will take away and who don't regularly do end game content.

[Vinak]

Hopefully you guys are genuinely listening to feedback this time around.

 

We have games like ESO and FF14 that have floundered only to find there footing after launch.

 

Then we have SWTOR. A game that found huge success at launch only to flounder almost immediately afterwards.

 

The difference? ESO and FF14 devs took player feedback into consideration and adapted there games accordingly.

 

SWTOR devs on the other hand have flat out ignored player feedback almost entirely since beta.

 

Swtor has always had so much potential to be a truly great game but it's all been squandered. Either due to mediocre, uninspired content or incompetence.

[Zhedzaban]

Yep, it would. Add back the loot tables for bosses and gear tokens. Leave CXP for those who want to chase achievements these fools will take away and who don't regularly do end game content.

 

But is there really a need? With no new ops in years, just how many people are still doing HM or NM ops anyway?

 

I have no issues getting into SM ops, they are still popular (on Harb) and lots of people seem to enjoy them plus you don't need high end gear for it. But are there really lots of players out there desperate to do ToS NM again? Do we really need to bring back loot tables just to keep a hand full of people happy?

[Radzkie]

But is there really a need? With no new ops in years, just how many people are still doing HM or NM ops anyway?

 

I have no issues getting into SM ops, they are still popular (on Harb) and lots of people seem to enjoy them plus you don't need high end gear for it. But are there really lots of players out there desperate to do ToS NM again? Do we really need to bring back loot tables just to keep a hand full of people happy?

 

If they added back loot tables and started to regularly release Ops again, they might win back some raiders. In reality though, the devs have lost the trust of most of the hardcore(and perhaps the midcore) raiding community. Maybe trust is not the right word -- we KNOW the devs do not care about or want us. I accepted that long ago and am happy to do story and casual NiM raiding here(for nostalgia). My hardcore guild moved onto FF14 and most of us are completely happy.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Radzkie

[ZeroTypeR]

My sub will run out in the beginning of January, and I have no intentions of resubbing before the update. I'll wait for 5.1 to drop: if I like the update, then I'll re-sub, if not, then I'll stay preferred. Edited December 14, 2016 by ZeroTypeR

[DanNV]

But is there really a need? With no new ops in years, just how many people are still doing HM or NM ops anyway?

 

My group is. Several others were, but it's dried up since 5.0. Some of us didn't do ops until the last couple of years and some are relatively new to the game so we haven't completed everything in HM. Now, we may never do so as we're talking about other games we might go try. Until 5.0 dropped we could be short a person and always get more than one volunteer on fleet to fill in on whatever HM we were doing. Now, we can't even get into most of them. So, with 4.0 there were a good number, now many have already left and more are leaving as subs run out.

 

I have no issues getting into SM ops, they are still popular (on Harb) and lots of people seem to enjoy them plus you don't need high end gear for it. But are there really lots of players out there desperate to do ToS NM again? Do we really need to bring back loot tables just to keep a hand full of people happy?

 

Do you want to keep the players you have and maybe get some of the canceled subs back? The only reason they're even talking changes is because they can red the bottom line and it's shrinking. If it wasn't, they wouldn't care. Player feedback has never affected BW. Canceled subs gets their attention. Lots of cancelations gets them to actually move and do something, although they frequently do to little, too late.

 

I've subbed since a few days after launch. My sub runs out in Feb. If they haven't fixed this by then and done so in a way that keeps my friends in the game or brings them back, I'm out too. I'll give my money to some other company. I can guarantee it won't go to anything owned by EA once i leave SWTOR.

 

I expect that is the message they have gotten loud and clear. We don't like it and we're leaving and taking our money with us. The only question is, will they do something to make us happy and keep us or will they half-*** it and wonder why we all left. I am hoping for the former, but fully expect the latter.

 

The only good thing to SWTOR dying would be putting the fools who made the decisions to go the direction they did out of work. And I expect the onyl way to fix things now is to change management and get people who actually believe in listening to paying customers.

Edited December 14, 2016 by DanNV

[DanNV]

If they added back loot tables and started to regularly release Ops again, they might win back some raiders. In reality though, the devs have lost the trust of most of the hardcore(and perhaps the midcore) raiding community. Maybe trust is not the right word -- we KNOW the devs do not care about or want us. I accepted that long ago and am happy to do story and casual NiM raiding here(for nostalgia). My hardcore guild moved onto FF14 and most of us are completely happy.

 

FF14 is one of the games I was looking into, but don't know anyone who actually plays. Good to hear your happy there.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Increasing the amount of CXP from non-KP/EV HM ops by 3 three times could stop the bleeding and even reverse the damage.

[Ziddal_the_green]

" I just wanted to let you know that along with the changes we have already made in 5.0a and 5.0.1, your voices are being heard. We look forward to talking with all of you about the upcoming changes."

 

Like you heard your player base regarding phase walk & shadows/sins?

[omaan]

Hey folks,

 

Please keep all of your feedback coming on Command Crates, Command XP, and Galactic Command. The team is always looking over your feedback and looking for ways we can improve the system! We have been reading everything you sent our way, and there are couple of stand-out points (this is by no means everything):

• There needs to be a way to work towards a specific slot of gear to fill in gaps (especially set bonuses) for people who are unlucky with Command Crates.
  
• Gearing your other characters is too grindy.
  

 

With this in mind, the team has some important changes planned for Game Update 5.1 coming next month to address the above concerns! We are finalizing those changes now and will walk you through our plans during this Thursday’s Livestream, 12/15 so be sure to tune in. If you can’t make the stream we will be posting a recap on the forums. I just wanted to let you know that along with the changes we have already made in 5.0a and 5.0.1, your voices are being heard. We look forward to talking with all of you about the upcoming changes.

 

-eric

 

PS - I will be back on the stream this week so the stream dream team is back together again.

 

Wow it would be very nice if we could play our alts again! No opportunity to play alts without having an issue with forever-gearing up was the main Reason i cancelled my sub. I was so disgusted to play my main char (sentinel) for so long without any way to switch to other classes without being farmed on warzones by other players main chars who had better than my alts gear , so i just gave up on this game. I hope you will make cxp legacy wide or at least provide something else to give us an opportunity to play our alts!!!

[Transcendent]

Exactly. You just know they're going to goof it up and introduce something completely random that nobody wants. When have they ever NOT done that?

 

Sadly I think this will be the part that occurs. They'll say they're listening etc etc, then introduce something that no player asked for, which still doesn't resolve the original problem.

 

It's almost cringe worthy watching this occur, this time though I think it'll be the last time for some of us. They need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to rescue this system, GC itself isn't a bad idea and I like that players get a chance (albeit a very poor chance from what we've seen) to get BiS gear. As the only method of gearing (because crafting is essentially worthless) it simply isn't going to cut it.

 

" I just wanted to let you know that along with the changes we have already made in 5.0a and 5.0.1, your voices are being heard. We look forward to talking with all of you about the upcoming changes."

 

Like you heard your player base regarding phase walk & shadows/sins?

 

That's the thing though, they're not listening, otherwise they wouldn't be nerfing CXP gains and making this system even more of a grind than it was.

 

I still don't see the sense in removing PW from SIns by the way, sure remove it from Sorc, but not Sins.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Transcendent

[DarthFletcher]

* Command Crates should offer

- Pets, Rep Item, Mounts, Orange Items, Decorations, Titles and schematics, Relics, Implants, Ear Pieces, Main Hand and Off Hand

 

- An unique token should drop every 5-10 levels that can be used as a currency to buy set gear

- Amount of Tokens per piece depends on how many slots that item as

 

Head Piece 3 slots (Armour, Enhancement, Mod) 3 Tokens

Chest Piece 3 slots (Armour, Enhancement, Mod) 3 Tokens

Gloves 3 slots (Armour, Enhancement, Mod) 3 Tokens

Bracers 2 slot (Amouring, Mod) 2 Tokens

Belt 2 slot (Amouring, Mod) 2 Tokens

Legs Gloves 3 slots (Armour, Enhancement, Mod) 3 Tokens

Boots Gloves 3 slots (Armour, Enhancement, Mod) 3 Tokens

 

= 19 Tokens this would take the player to Lv 95 meaning you have made them grind enough, because you are looking at 3 tiers of gear the Tokens would be specific to that gear set. So Tier 1 Token would access T1 gear you get the picture

 

When you move on to Tier 2 the same level cap applies but we lower the cost of the Token gear by 1 Token so 3 piece sets are worth 2 and the 2 piece sets are worth 1 and finally once you get to the 200-300 stage all T3 gear is worth 1 token each

 

At this point you have given the player what they wanted and you have gotten your way of making them level up the bar. Now to aid and assist this long grind you have set them on CXP should be then made legacy with the Tokens being bound to legacy once the player reaches that 300 mark and can not longer gain a level rank the every 5-10 levels cap would be every 5 levels the RNG gods will either give the player a T1, T2 or T3 token in the crate because they have reach 300 and your system should know this and allow the unlocking all tokens in one go.

[majopucik]

Hmm I guess in the end, after countless months they will make the system as the people suggested when the system was introduced way before 5.0

[Wayshuba]

Here is why the system does not and will never work and why it is having such a negative effect on the player base.

 

It takes two known design metrics for extending content - time-gated and RNG - and combines them into one. As a result, it completely fails in every aspect.

 

RNG, on its own, is a gating and grinding mechanic. A good example are action RPGs like Diablo 3, Grim Dawn and Path of Exile. You get a lot of trash in the RNG, but occassionally you get greens, blues and purples. Additionally, certain bosses are known to have a certain drop - so you grind that boss again and again hoping to get that lucky drop. The thing is, if you use this mechanic then you have drops coming like candy, this is what makes the grind more tolerable, you are opening crates, so to speak, with each and every mob you encounter. The RNG is what makes the time pass on the content that developers want.

 

Then you have time based grind, commonly implemented in most games as leveling. These grinds require a certain amount of activity or achievement, but the end goal of that grind is KNOWN and may have a CHANCE (not complete RNG), such a a drop from a raid boss, but the time grind brings you to a targeted goal you know exists for that time. This time usually extends (in the form of more XP required for example), the longer you go with the system.

 

The thing is, usually one or the other is implemented in a game - not both. What you have today is a grind mechanic implemented on top of a grind mechanic. And that is why so many are frustrated. It is extremely poor game design, period. No matter how you adjust this system, it will never work because of the fundamental things I noted above.

 

If you insist on sticking with the CxP system, then you folks in Austin need to make one fundamental design decision - do you want a time gated grind, or an RNG grind? It will never work with both - ever.

 

If you go time based, then keep the crate system you have but add the classes complete gear selection to a dialog box on reaching the next level and let us pick the gear.

 

If you go with RNG, then have different crates in the game, with different chances, dropping like candy. Gold mobs drop a tiny crate with say a 0.05% chance of a green/blue. champion mobs drop a small crate with a 0.09% chance of a green/blue and 0.01% chance of a non-set purple, FP Bosses have increased chances over Champion Mobs, Normal Op Bosses have increases over FP Bosses, and Final Op Bosses have the best chances of all (and would encourage people to finish an OP.

 

Choose only One BW. You will never get two grind mechanics on top of each other to ever work.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Psychopyro]

It takes two known design metrics for extending content - time-gated and RNG - and combines them into one. As a result, it completely fails in every aspect.

But it brings in TONS of money on those mobile games.... They couldn't possibly be wrong... /sarcasmoff

[Ceinwyn]

My suggestions are as follows. Firstly, though, I would like to recommend that you consider every single suggestion put forward in this thread. Don't dismiss something out of hand because it doesn't fit into your vision of how you want us to play your game. GC isn't a terrible concept in theory. I get that you want to encourage players to do a bit of everything, or make it possible for a player who enjoys one particular kind of content to accrue command points and that's fine. As many have also said, my issue is the RNG aspect of the system (and also the anti-alt focus).

 

 

1. Don't RNG set pieces
   
2. Fix PVP so afk'ers don't get anything for turning up & abandoning their team
   
3. Make CXP gains relative to the time spent completing an activity. PVP vs. OPs seems unbalanced, for example.
   
4. Ensure we gain CXP for everything at Level 70 e.g. every mob killed, codex. The weekly Star Fortress is also lackluster. Datacrons, maybe (something I haven't tested so maybe they do). The overriding purpose of the system has to be to encourage us to play the game. This should include the smallest task to the most time intensive.
   
5. Make the system alt-friendly
   
6. Put green quality items on mobs or something. No one wants to open a crate and see that ****. Ditto for rep items and empty BOE shells.
   

[Wayshuba]

But it brings in TONS of money on those mobile games.... They couldn't possibly be wrong... /sarcasmoff

 

No it doesn't, there is a difference between the mechanics being implemented next to one another and then on top of each other. That is what SWTOR had pre-5.0.

 

Those mobile games can have a time-mechanic, wait 8 hours for your farm to build or spend coins to build right away - there is a time-mechanic. Or, buy this magical mystery chest and have a chance at a drop - there is an RNG mechanic. What they do not have is a buy this magical mystery chest and spend more coins to open it now or you have to wait 8 hours to open the magical mystery chest you just bought (grind on grind mechanic). Or, hey, buy a chance at your farm building instantly or, maybe you will get nothing - please spend more coins.

 

Tell me a game that implements both a time and RNG mechanic ON TOP OF EACH OTHER ON ONE SYSTEM, not next to each other in the game.

 

Secondly, mobile games have a completely different underlying game structure. They build a "Keep Up With The Joneses curve" that drives many to spend. They are quick gratification designs (all of them), an MMO, by its very nature, is the complete opposite.

 

But yeah, keep telling yourself that this system is working wonders for the game.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Wayshuba

[AscendingSky]

You should have listened to us *MONTHS* ago when we first told you this was going to be a problem. You weren't listening to us then, and your not listening to us now. What you are listening to is the click, click, click of people un-subbing.

 

At least be honest with us!

 

Quoting for truth. They were warned a long time ago this was a bad idea. By forum members, by the closed beta testers... but they did it anyways. And then they were somehow caught off guard by the fact a lot of people hate it and have unsubbed. So now they want to roll out changes... in a month, at the earliest. They're well known for pushing back content updates and patches, so it may well be longer than that.

 

They should have seen this all coming. A lot of their customers did. They should not now be going around nuking from orbit every slightly more efficient way to gain CXP because they somehow didn't anticipate people would actually grind in an MMO. They should have realized people wanted to be able to play and gear their alts, after running an entire event for months specifically involving making new alts. This isn't kriffing quantum mechanics here.

Edited December 14, 2016 by AscendingSky

[MegaTherions]

While I do appreciate that they know they messed up, this will hardly fix any issues.

Remove the whole system Bioware, there was nothing wrong with 4.0 gearing except maybe the highlighted ops.

 

No one ever wanted RNG and no one ever wanted to mindlessly grind.

 

Stop lying with things like "we're listening" when you did not for months after all the outrage on the forums regarding the new system. And instead say "up to 10 hours/crate" not 1 hour/crate. Just imagine guys how much time it will take to get from level 299 to 300 if it can take a few hours now.

 

There is no real way of "fine tuning" or "fixing" the system. It's purely bad and not something your player base wants.

 

And why do "casuals" need more than add dropped green gear with 210 rating? Even the concept that "the old gearing system was too complicated for casuals" is a lie. They don't need gear for SM chapters, planetary missions, RP, or whatever they do. Plus they will never get to a decent rank with the current system.

 

You guys are killing progression guilds, Ranked PVP, Space PVP.

 

#removeRNG

#removeGrind

#KnightsOfTheEternalGrind

[CrazyGrunzy]

Personally I am pretty frustrated with the endgame right now. The whole RNG gearing system is bad. For example you play PVP the whole day, you get like 5 Command Crates and there is not one piece in it u can use, because its either all green or blue or it has the wrong stats, its the wrong relic. I think I desintegrated about 90% of my Command Crates. It gets even more frustrating when you don't have much time to play the game. There are people who worky, study, go to school and they only have a few hours per day, maybe only the 2 days that the group is raiding depending on their workload. With drop rates like these.. how are they ever gonna get their gear? How are they ever gonna reach Command Rank 300? Which leads to my next point. I think every damn mob you kill should reward CXP. Just like when you're leveling u get XP for every mob you kill. The bigger the mob, the more XP they give. Therefore FP Bosses and OP Bosses should give more CXP than normal Mobs. Give the players the feeling that they get rewarded for everything they do. Right now I have the feeling you want us to grind all day... -.-'

[Psychopyro]

Tell me a game that implements both a time and RNG mechanic ON TOP OF EACH OTHER ON ONE SYSTEM, not next to each other in the game.

I can, and it's one of theirs.... Galaxy of Heros... You can save up crystals to buy the RNG box OR you can pay for crystals and buy the RNG box... And from what I hear, the game makes a ton of money....

[Wayshuba]

I can, and it's one of theirs.... Galaxy of Heros... You can save up crystals to buy the RNG box OR you can pay for crystals and buy the RNG box... And from what I hear, the game makes a ton of money....

 

Great. Now, do they require you to pay a monthly sub for that? No.

 

They have a monthly sub that gives 100 crystals/day for 21 days. Random character crystals, which you can grind in game, run at 80 crystals randomly distributed across characters. So every single day for your sub, you at least get something. So at least you will get 26 character RNG distributions for that.

 

This is where what they are doing here falls down. In GoH, if you want to grind, you can and NOT PAY A SINGLE CENT FOR THE GAME. SWTOR is requiring you to pay $15/month for a F2P grind. In fact, in this game if you stay F2P you won't be exposed to that grind. Better yet, you won't have access to the content that requires that grind. So you are doing a terrible job monetizing the F2P players.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Wayshuba