Why Macros belong in TOR.

[_compton_]

How do focus macros=crutch, but being able to target someone out of your UI and heal them without knowing their direction/having to click on them physically isn't?

 

Relativism. This "discussion" devolved into that ambiguous realm long ago, and I despair of salvaging it.

[CHRISGG]

And here you are, addressing precisely the topic that leads to the least productive discussion. Your opinion is that in all circumstances, exactly the same result can be reached through use of a focus macro, or alternatively, manually targeting. It is your opinion that it is entirely reasonable for a player to, after having identified a spell being cast while being engaged by another player simultaneously, manually click on that target (the small, inconsistent hitboxes in SWTOR need to be accounted for here) use your interrupt, then retarget your previous target who has had the opportunity to: attack you unopposed and move from his/her previous location and that this course of action is as efficient as pressing a single button?

 

You are not accounting for the fact that you have to drop and retarget your original target.

 

Again, there can be absolutely no argument that your preferred method is less efficient than the use of a focus macro. Now that the schematics are defined, can we possibly address the questions I raised in my previous post?

 

If you need any additional clarification as to what it is exactly I'm arguing, please let me know.

 

 

You don't have to "drop" your target... you just click the other target then click your original target. I do this extremely quickly. One of these uses the mouse, while using the actual spell uses the keyboard. There is no reason you can't do this. Also, a large part of what makes this hard in SW:TOR are bugs with tab and click targetting. If you couldn't accomplish this in WoW, where those two things are PERFECT and it's trivial to aim your tab targets, then I don't know what to say.

 

Who cares about efficiency? Obviously, focus was required in WoW and you were putting yourself at a big disadvantage without using it because it allowed you to ignore some very important PvP aspects and shift your focus to other ones. If you removed it the game would still function. Arena would still be popular. There would just be a higher skill gap. Is this a bad thing?

 

Mechanical skill is a large part of PvP skill. Focus macros remove the need for mechanical skill and make slow players (like yourself, apparently - not insulting you, but you said it takes you "2-3 seconds" to do what takes me a split second. If you didn't want me to say this, maybe you shouldn't have said that.) on equal level with me. No thank you.

 

Also, your posts are nothing but opinion, so it's kind of funny that you post your "opinion" accusations as if that's not everything in this thread.

Edited December 28, 2011 by CHRISGG

[Krondorf]

 

Also, your posts are nothing but opinion, so it's kind of funny that you post your "opinion" accusations as if that's not everything in this thread.

 

Exactly what came into my mind as well.

 

Thats like all said in this thread is an illusion.

 

Bio ware has served this game as it is. No macros and no add ons. The way I like it to be.

Now is that an illusion, or my opinion?

[YanksfanJP]

Fair enough. Could you elaborate on how exactly that eventuality would not benefit the game, though?

 

Arena hasn't benefitted WoW at all. If anything, it hurt the game, made balancing a roller coaster nightmare and had a major hand in fragmenting the community. I don't see any reason why this game would end up any different.

 

Yes, Arena can be fun for a handful of people, but it's not worth the cost.

Edited December 28, 2011 by YanksfanJP

[Frydoh]

So noobs thinking is : skill = i can click 60 buttons using my pro mouse.

 

ahahhahahahahahah

 

Just add macros and let the noobs click 'em all.

[kaelthun]

ITT: PEOPLE THAT NEED TO PLAY 30 MINUTES OF QWOP FOR CONTRAST

http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

 

See, now there's a game that needs macros. I think we can all agree that SWTOR's controls and general gameplay are quite smooth and nice Less buggy than most launch MMOs fer sure.

[_compton_]

You don't have to "drop" your target... you just click the other target then click your original target. I do this extremely quickly. One of these uses the mouse, while using the actual spell uses the keyboard. There is no reason you can't do this. Also, a large part of what makes this hard in SW:TOR are bugs with tab and click targetting. If you couldn't accomplish this in WoW, where those two things are PERFECT and it's trivial to aim your tab targets, then I don't know what to say.

 

Who cares about efficiency? Obviously, focus was required in WoW and you were putting yourself at a big disadvantage without using it because it allowed you to ignore some very important PvP aspects and shift your focus to other ones. If you removed it the game would still function. Arena would still be popular. There would just be a higher skill gap. Is this a bad thing?

 

Mechanical skill is a large part of PvP skill. Focus macros remove the need for mechanical skill and make slow players (like yourself, apparently - not insulting you, but you said it takes you "2-3 seconds" to do what takes me a split second. If you didn't want me to say this, maybe you shouldn't have said that.) on equal level with me. No thank you.

 

Also, your posts are nothing but opinion, so it's kind of funny that you post your "opinion" accusations as if that's not everything in this thread.

 

I merely emphasized opinion in my post because you were stating your opinions as fact - I concede that's something that many of us are guilty of in this thread. Eventually it comes down to whether you want to game to be faster, more fluid, and streamlined. I could make a completely valid argument that removing keybindings from the game and forcing all players to click their abilities would increase the skill cap. After all, it would require you to develop additional muscle memory, and your mouse can't be in 4 places at once - while your fingers can be directly on 4 hotkeys simultaneously.

 

To address what you said about not being required to drop targets... You do. There is absolutely no denying it. You have to move your mouse across the screen, click the player you want to interrupt, move the mouse back across the screen, and click on your previous target again, who in most situations will have moved. If you can anticipate a cast, you can do this very quickly, yes.. But it is not nearly that simple in many circumstances, for instance if the healer is clustered within a large group.

 

Addressing the last post, BW employees have stated that they will probably release macros at a later date and that they are in no way opposed to them.

 

The game was never "intended" to be played without focus macros. It is not against BWs design/development philosophy to implement said macros. It simply hasn't yet, and this thread's purpose is to advocate for that implementation to occur sooner rather than later.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Sentryx]

My concern with adding focus macros is depending on how it is done, it could lead to what in other games was called assist macros. Now you have an entire group running an assist macro off their target caller, all spamming abilities against a single enemy without having to do any targeting whatsoever.

 

I would rather see BW adopt the defensive target/offensive target setup like WAR and a few other games had.

 

I'm not hugely opposed to mousover macros, but the bottom line is macros are created to make playing the game easier. You can call it more "efficient" if you want but that's not entirely accurate.

[CHRISGG]

Dropping target would be de-targeting not swapping target. Also problems with targetting people in clusters are due to problems with the game. They should probably fix those before adding macros, as I said!!!!

[_compton_]

Dropping target would be de-targeting not swapping target. Also problems with targetting people in clusters are due to problems with the game. They should probably fix those before adding macros, as I said!!!!

 

You only addressed two of my statements, and even with those "problems" you cited being resolved, if your target is within a large cluster of others in many circumstances you would still not be able to target them quickly with 100% accuracy. And by "dropping target" I mean your current target is deselected and replaced as soon as you acquire another target, which requires you to subsequently re-target your original target once you've used your interrupt. This process, ideal conditions or not, undeniably requires more time and is less accurate than using a focus target in concert with a focus macro.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Eclipso]

Essentially what you want is this:

 

One button that does all the work for you.

 

I agree with this, sadly this type of behavior and train of thought has been creeping up in society for along time and I am glad they decided not to input them into the game.

[_compton_]

I agree with this, sadly this type of behavior and train of thought has been creeping up in society for along time and I am glad they decided not to input them into the game.

 

Yet another poster who neglected to actually read the post in question. Please refer to... Any page of this thread, peruse the posts and you will find that this concern has been addressed... Repeatedly.

 

Also, society?

[Sheneria]

competitive PvP player in WoW

 

i loled

 

learn to play the game dude.

 

you are no where near a competitive or good player if you ask the devs to simplify their game.

[Troge]

They went back to the basics. Example EQ day one. It makes you think what you need to do next. No insta win button. If this game it to hard for you Hello Kitty might be a better match for you.

[CHRISGG]

You only addressed two of my statements, and even with those "problems" you cited being resolved, if your target is within a large cluster of others in many circumstances you would still not be able to target them quickly with 100% accuracy. And by "dropping target" I mean your current target is deselected and replaced as soon as you acquire another target, which requires you to subsequently re-target your original target once you've used your interrupt. This process, ideal conditions or not, undeniably requires more time and is less accurate than using a focus target in concert with a focus macro.

 

And?

 

All you can say is "this would make the game easier, implement it."

 

I freely acknowledge that focus macros make the game easier. The point is, in the OP you tried to claim they increase the skill cap, as if they're something only pros can use, which is a joke.

 

The lack of macro support in tandem with focus functionality inhibits me, and many others I've spoken with, from playing as effectively as we feel that we are capable of

Edited December 28, 2011 by CHRISGG

[RJChief]

The only thing I would support is an option for a "2nd setup of toolbars" so that my JC Sage (healer) could run missions (I refuse to call the quests) and solo activity with my damage skills on the number bar and heals underneath and a PVP or Group Activity stuff with my heals on the number bar and my damage abilities underneath.

 

I know there are multiple toolbars but switching from dps to heals can get frustraiting

[riedeas]

I don't really understand why you would need focus macro when there is already focus modifier button built into the game that kinda works great already.

 

Smoother/working UI+mechanics(mainly targeting)+Smoother animations > no need for macros.

And for competitive play i would hate it, it's far better to have everyone playing on the same terms instead of actully forcing people to use macros to even compete.

Macro support just seems like a lazy easymode fix for the devs, rather than fixing the problem that causes the "need" for macros.

Stuff like mouseover setfocus/healing/action could be added through ui option instead.

[Eciso]

Autohotkey? Keyboard with macro function?

[Veala]

I'd like to see things like focus or mouseover macros. What I don't want to see are Rift-style fallthrough macros that allow you to map a 100% efficient dps rotation to one button. A Rift warrior could literally map 12 skills to a single key and mash it to do mathematically maximum dps =p

[moomtazz]

The OP and Websters definition of brevity do not match. TLDR

 

The game is fine without macros.

[_compton_]

And?

 

All you can say is "this would make the game easier, implement it."

 

I freely acknowledge that focus macros make the game easier. The point is, in the OP you tried to claim they increase the skill cap, as if they're something only pros can use, which is a joke.

 

You act as if you've caught some contradiction... You haven't. I feel that a fluid, faster-paced game is superior to the alternative, and I feel that the implementation of focus macros would facilitate an increase in non-artificial complexity on a more regular basis, as fully utilizing focus macros/frames optimally requires constant awareness of two targets, as well as solid situational awareness in general. It is my opinion that in a competitive setting manually clicking a healer while in heating combat and getting an interrupt off would be an occasional fluke, rather than a regular occurrence that had to be accounted for and anticipated, increasing complexity. It is my opinion that requiring players to manually click a target with a small, buggy hitbox while already engaged with another enemy, is at best an artificial increase of the skill cap, and one that has no place in a truly competitive setting.

 

Is that enough clarity?

 

@Moom

 

Concise and exact use of words in writing or speech.

Shortness of time.

 

Relative to reading the post in its entirety, the TL;DR I provide is a concise use of words, and reading it as an alternative to reading the entire post would indeed be brevity.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Battousaien]

I think people are missunderstanding a lot.

 

Some people come from Rift, where macros are absurd.

 

Some people (like me) come from WoW, where Macros are just about perfectly balanced and don't let you do anything enormously complex. This is the form of Macros I would want to see in TOR, not the Rift style. And I imagine most the pro-macro people in this thread are thinking along the same lines.

 

^ This.

 

I also agree 100% with OP.

[_compton_]

^ This.

 

I also agree 100% with OP.

 

Thank you for your support.

 

Unfortunately, many people have posted without reading the entire thread, or even the TL;DR, and as such are ignorant as to what I'm actually advocating for, and why.

[Redemphunter]

I've jumped to the last page, apologies if I have missed a reply that has better explained this topic or already states what I am about to.

 

 

I think the op needs to better explain his usage of macros, how he utilizes them in a normal pvp or pve setting and how he would like to use them in Swtor. There is a large portion of the competitive player-base who reads the word macro and immediately imagines a system such as Rift's where some classes where able to have 3-4 macros on their hot-bar which arguably automated the character. There are other mmo's which have utilized a macro system which can be as simplifying as Rift's but it seems the most fitting example of the typically feared macro system now-a-days. I used macros in WoW as well for competitive PvP , but those macros were nothing compared to the simplification of Rift's macros. I suspect you wish for macro's akin to a Warriors stance dance, item swapping, quick stuns etc. These types of macros are easily setup using any modern gaming keyboard and mouse, certainly utilizing an in-game system expedites and adds a fluidity to the system though. I already utilize a G13, its been completely programmed ; I also have a Naga full programmed, with my minor quick keys set to my G15. All of these tools serve a function in pvp and are routinely used, there systems are no different than the macro's World supported. These systems are vastly different than the macros Rift supported. I would not be opposed to macro's in the form World had them, something to that degree will not detract nor add to anyone's competitive skill. I am vehemently opposed to any elaborate macro/script which will remove the component of quick player reactions, correct ability selection, and proper ability placement/timing.

 

I also will give room to those who wish to utilize a mouse-over heal system, it detracts nothing that I can see. On the other hand ... there should be no systems added which simplify any play style . Which means an obnoxiously LOUD NO , to any of the plethora of healing assistance mods seen in WoW or many other games.

 

 

My two cents - Yes I play a healer, I have never and will never use any systems to simplify my healing. I have tried it a few times in some mmo's and it only serves to make me lazy in turn I lose my edge.

 

Smitten Apocalite

38 Sage

<Arc>

Sword of Ajunta Pall

[riedeas]

You act as if you've caught some contradiction... You haven't. I feel that a fluid, faster-paced game is superior to the alternative, and I feel that the implementation of focus macros would facilitate an increase in non-artificial complexity on a more regular basis, as fully utilizing focus macros/frames optimally requires constant awareness of two targets, as well as solid situational awareness in general. It is my opinion that in a competitive setting manually clicking a healer while in heating combat and getting an interrupt off would be an occasional fluke, rather than a regular occurrence that had to be accounted for and anticipated, increasing complexity. It is my opinion that requiring players to manually click a target with a small, buggy hitbox while already engaged with another enemy, is at best an artificial increase of the skill cap, and one that has no place in a truly competitive setting.

 

Is that enough clarity?

 

There is already built in focus modifer, set focus target, target previous enemy, target previous friend. You still need same awarness.

Or are you asking for macro that automaticly set focus to nearest healer or something?.

 

Whats needed is better working ui(maybe bigger hit boxes?) and smoother animations with no delay/self roots on instants etc.

 

I've realised thanks to SWTOR that it doesn't really take anymore keybinds to do focus interupts/set focus without macro compared to what i had in WoW, actully less because i remade my keybinds :X.