Why Macros belong in TOR.

[YpaWinz]

Your analogy insists that macros give the player a PASSIVE advantage, as would a faster car in a nascar race. Macros, in fact, give the player anything but a passive advantage, as they require player reaction and thought process (skill) to use correctly.

 

This^

[Xerks]

Quite the opposite. Unskilled lazy people crying they need macros to be on par with not phisically and mentally handicapped people.

 

Its like WoW crowd whining in AoC " why the hell should i click 5 buttons in combo to activate an attack? i should only be needing to click 1! when combo system was the greatest part of the game...

 

You know, i would like Starcraft 2 to have a build in full functional scripting language. It would make playing it so much easyer and of course, it would only raise the competitiveness bar!

 

Yet another flawed example...

Edited April 10, 2012 by Sireene
quote of edited post

[_compton_]

Without focus macros, facing two players (particularly a damage dealer and a healer) given that the two opposing players are even somewhat competent does not put you at a disadvantage.

 

It renders you, essentially, incapable of doing ANYTHING productive.

 

I am not of course suggesting that a player should be able to defeat two opposing players in a 2v1 scenario. I am suggesting that the single player should be given the opportunity to have any impact at all.

 

The benefit of focus does not only apply to 2v1s - it applies to Warzones in general, in that it allows a team at a disadvantage from a healing standpoint to have a reasonable opportunity to manage the opposing team and enhance balance.

 

To those arguing that manually targeting a healer, while engaged with another player, (which would require keeping them within your limited FOV/peripherals the entire time, something which can easily be exploited through movement) is feasible, you are quite simply wrong.

 

Even considering you could register the spell being cast, stop what you are doing, manually target them with a click, and then use an interrupt before the spell cast is completed, the time you would expend doing that would give your first target an unreasonable amount of time to function unopposed.

 

In short, in that scenario, trying to manage both targets would be effectively gimping yourself.

 

You'd have to resort to maintaing focus on a single target and delaying it for a moment before an inevitable death.

 

In conclusion, I'll concede that arguing schematics is ultimately fruitless.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Highfives]

It's like you guys have been driving automatic all your life and now you have to drive manual you are like OMG wth is this gear stick thingy?!!

 

Tough break, adapt.

[Nijraw]

Guys WHO CARES?

 

I mean if you don't like macros don't use them.

 

Macros are needed for the ones that want them it's not going to effect the non macros users at all.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Nijraw

[Bundrov]

Best news so far. I fully support NO MACRO at the end we have a game that is played by it self with macro...Macro are for lazy players! Edited December 28, 2011 by Bundrov

[KorwinOfAmber]

Your analogy insists that macros give the player a PASSIVE advantage, as would a faster car in a nascar race. Macros, in fact, give the player anything but a passive advantage, as they require player reaction and thought process (skill) to use correctly.

 

As someone who in his time wrote full fledged macro programs for competitive pvp in different MMOs or complexety most people dont even think about when speaking "macros, i kindly ignore your opinion.

 

Macro is a cheat. End of. The only difference is weather the specific MMO devs fight them, or cant restrict and forced to include in their own games since people use them anyway.

 

And before you argue that "if people would use them anyway,why not include them?" is that they infact ruin most of competitive aspects for gameplay for people that dont use them.

 

I rather see cheaters banned, then devs telling its ok to cheat and giving up.

[Groncho]

PVE players/clickers hate macros. Who cares.

Swtor badly needs macros.

 

no man

*keybind ur abilities

*use TS or ventrilo or something

*learn to use LOS

*coordinate a few things with ur team

macros are good i cant denied it, but this game is ok without em

now is all bout skill, lnowing ur prof abilities and weakness and coordination

if u add macros is about who has the better chained macros so nay to macros

[CoreofexisteNz]

I think people opposed to the idea of macros believe that it is some magical way for people to get skill.

 

 

To be honest whether I press 4 buttons to kill you, or 1 makes no difference to you. You still die and you will still cry. It makes a difference to me because I dont have to waste 4 keystrokes on you.

 

I am not sure I see how macros can magically give people skill. That is the reason why I will not take this discussion seriously.

 

If I cant kill you by using keybinds, I wont be able to kill you by using macros. Prove to me that it makes a huge difference by using actual examples of situations and I might take your opposition to macros more seriously.

 

For now its just a joke.

 

I honestly dont see ANY WAY that you people can say: NOW ITS MORE SKILL BASED! CAUSE WHEN I STUN HIM THEN HE WILL BE ALL LIKE: UUUUH WHAT DO I USE!?.

 

Please do not delude yourself in the idea what using more than 1 keystroke in anyway constitutes skill. You already know which sequence/rotation you are going to use for a given situation. There is absolutely no difference in using 1 keystroke instead of 5. Not to the person getting their *** handed to them anyway.

Edited December 28, 2011 by CoreofexisteNz

[Highfives]

Without focus macros, facing two players (particularly a damage dealer and a healer) given that the two opposing players are even somewhat competent does not put you at a disadvantage.

 

It renders you, essentially, incapable of doing ANYTHING productive.

 

I am not of course suggesting that a player should be able to defeat two opposing players in a 2v1 scenario. I am suggesting that the single player should be given the opportunity to have any impact at all.

 

The benefit of focus does not only apply to 2v1s - it applies to Warzones in general, in that it allows a team at a disadvantage from a healing standpoint to have a reasonable opportunity to manage the opposing team and enhance balance.

 

That's funny because I beat two players, I recognised I was at a disadvantage and immediately retreated to a better position. When the first player caught up I stunned him and forced pushed him off the edge, the second guy I used a lot of cc and interrupts to finish him off.

 

I won through thinking through the situation, I didn't stand there like a dodo and try to micromanage them.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Highfives

[KorwinOfAmber]

Guys WHO CARES?

 

I mean if you don't like macros don't use them.

 

Macros are needed for the ones that want them it's not going to effect the non macros users at all.

 

Haha, oh wow... i can bring you lots of example of macros i can make right on a spot not using ingame functionality but only G15 or say Autohotkey (including say, instantly checking every team members health and healing him or applying instant sorc Affection on all targets is range) that sure as hell have effect on the gameplay.

 

Macros in pvp are mainly used not to "automate tedious processes and improve flaws of interface" as you people try make others to belive, but exactly that - gain an edge over the opponents.

[Vlaid]

I'm all for macros. I just dont' want mods.

 

Stuff like a recruitment macro, a macro to yell at my teammates a strategy, a macro to use my debuff remover on my focus target....heal my focus target...

 

That's all I really want. Macros.

 

Nobody should be afraid of macros, just keep mods out of the game. I like not having to go searching for the 20 different mods I need to play correctly.

[Xerks]

As someone who in his time wrote full fledged macro programs for competitive pvp in different MMOs or complexety most people dont even think about when speaking "macros, i kindly ignore your opinion.

 

Macro is a cheat. End of. The only difference is weather the specific MMO devs fight them, or cant restrict and forced to include in their own games since people use them anyway.

 

And before you argue that "if people would use them anyway,why not include them?" is that they infact ruin most of competitive aspects for gameplay for people that dont use them.

 

I rather see cheaters banned, then devs telling its ok to cheat and giving up.

 

Fact of the matter is the OP isn't asking for super complex macros that can play the game for him, he is asking for SIMPLE macros such as focus and mouse-over macros. Both of which only provide an advantage if the player is able to use them efficiently and correctly.

[Nijraw]

no man

*keybind ur abilities

*use TS or ventrilo or something

*learn to use LOS

*coordinate a few things with ur team

macros are good i cant denied it, but this game is ok without em

now is all bout skill, lnowing ur prof abilities and weakness and coordination

if u add macros is about who has the better chained macros so nay to macros

 

*no could also say, no voice chat

*no programmable keybords and mice

 

there are many out of game items and programs that help aid players better play there game so a in game macro system is no different then a player that uses a Razer Naga, macros help players that don't have those tools or skills of a 19 year old virgin with sticky palms see my point?

[Highfives]

It's got to be bad if you need macros to stay competitive with average players.

 

Get on our level!

[CoreofexisteNz]

*no could also say, no voice chat

*no programmable keybords and mice

 

there are many out of game items and programs that help aid players better play there game so a in game macro system is no different then a player that uses a Razer Naga, macros help players that don't have those tools or skills of a 19 year old virgin with sticky palms see my point?

 

Yea I wasnt gonan raise that for fear of getting jackhammered due to using advantages they cant but...

 

There are a million miles of programs out there for keyboard and mouse binds, not to mention gaming keyboards and mice usually already have these features.

 

The reason I didnt bring them up is because the people here probably cant afford them and believe that without macros they have more skill.

[manvsdead]

Focus target is lazy. Do it over vent. Deal with clicking or tab targetting to your focused target that is called by whoever is leading your group - you can do that outside of the game don't be lazy and make a focus-train. That is unrewarding to everyone involved and if you seriously consider that a part of competitive PVP you're a sooky carebear who doesn't wanna make the effort to click their target, or hit tab 3 or so times. Are you rationing "minimum effort" cause it's not that demanding.

 

Takes more skill to make the effort to find the character you've been told to attack then just press a button and smash the crap out of your keybinds.

 

Macros can have their place sometimes but again it can be argued that it takes more skill and understanding of your class and the ability to use your keyboard to sort out all the necessary stuff you wanna do.

 

I'm all for no macros and no focus target option. you lazy kids have been spoon fed too much by other games. if you're any good at PvP you should be able to acquire your target manually instead of hitting a button so you can have a bukkake party all over them and not care that you can't focus target with one button.

[Polly_Pocket]

Wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

 

I'm dying for macro support. Here's to hoping they implement it within a patch or two.

 

Just ignore the trolls, they are abundant on these forums.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Polly_Pocket

[_compton_]

People continue to post in ignorance. Macros are not addons. I am not advocating for castsequence macros - merely focus macros, which essentially allow a team lacking healers facing a team with healers to have a reasonable chance, and Mouseover macros, which make healing large groups feasible and much, much less clunky.

 

Ignorant people will continue to make baseless, unsubstantiated statements, as they always will.

 

@Highfive - Further argument is purposeless, we have conflicting opinions at a fundamental level, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

However, I believe I've provided more coherent examples and scenarios, a list of benefits, and more information in general.

 

People are ultimately free to formulate their individual opinions, and come to their own conclusions. All I ask is that people try to refrain from making broad statements in ignorance - gather information on a subject before making an absolute statement.

 

I appreciate the constructive discourse, both those in support of macros and those in opposition.

 

That this thread has not yet devolved into flaming is a great victory, I think.

 

In the end, the purpose of this thread was to raise awareness and to facilitate discussion.

 

Bed time for me, thank you all for your contributions to the discussion, and please, keep it civil.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Xerks]

That's funny because I beat two players, I recognised I was at a disadvantage and immediately retreated to a better position. When the first player caught up I stunned him and forced pushed him off the edge, the second guy I used a lot of cc and interrupts to finish him off.

 

I won through thinking through the situation, I didn't stand there like a dodo and try to micromanage them.

 

Would you beat two EQUALLY SKILLED enemy players 2v1, or would you be stun-locked for the duration of your life draining 100 - 0? The answer is the second one buddy, your example of "random (probably made up on the spot) pvp scenario" has no backing, and is therefor irrelevant.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Xerks

[Vlaid]

Wow. It's making my brain hurt a little with all the people in this thread that adamantly don't want macros but don't even know what they do. Allow me to explain and hopefully shed some light on the issue for the confused....

 

Some things you should know

 

1) Macros do not play the game for you

 

2) Macros are not cheating

 

3) Macros don't let you do things you couldn't normally do. They just let you combine multiple effects into one keypress.

 

4) A focus target is not a "calling out a kill target" over vent. A focus target is someone you have set as a kind of "Secondary" target. It defaults to the F key I believe.

 

Some examples of macros

 

1) A macro that uses your debuff remover on your focus target without having to focus that player manually

 

2) A macro that lets you use an ability on whatever target your mouse is hovering over instead of having to target them

 

3) Using an expertise pot+a DPS buff ability at the same time, instead of having to press two keys at the same time (virtually the same thing, just saves a keybind or two)

 

4) A macro that casts a CC at your focus target so you don't have to switch targets to use your CC/stun on them.

 

This is just a short list of examples. None of them are cheating, they all raise the skill cap, and they don't require you to go off and download a large number of addons or do a large amount of research.

 

Macros just make doing things less annoying. That's all. It allows you to do, what you want to do, more efficiently and with less keystrokes. Let's not force the UI to flatten the skill cap for everyone so everyone is equally bad simply because there's not much way to distinguish yourself as a more skilled player by using your abilities more efficiently.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Vlaid

[Krondorf]

As someone who in his time wrote full fledged macro programs for competitive pvp in different MMOs or complexety most people dont even think about when speaking "macros, i kindly ignore your opinion.

 

Macro is a cheat. End of. The only difference is weather the specific MMO devs fight them, or cant restrict and forced to include in their own games since people use them anyway.

 

And before you argue that "if people would use them anyway,why not include them?" is that they infact ruin most of competitive aspects for gameplay for people that dont use them.

 

I rather see cheaters banned, then devs telling its ok to cheat and giving up.

 

QFT

 

I was thinking about macros in pvp.

Auto target your damage dealing buddy wherever he may be near to you, even if he is not in front of your monitor, but actually at the back of you.

Heal him while you have him in target.

One button in sequence to heal, remove any nasty effects, buff him up, heal and whatever..

Just keep spamming that one button, and he'll be alright.

 

Now put that function in war zone like huttball, you have a force to be reckoned with.

 

To me, that's not competitive.

 

That's like driving a manual compared to driving auto, like a guy has mentioned before in this thread.

[Highfives]

Would you beat two EQUALLY SKILLED enemy players 2v1, or would you be stun-locked for the duration of your life draining 100 - 0? The answer is the second one buddy, your example of "random (probably made up on the spot) pvp scenario" has no backing, and is therefor irrelevant.

 

I was stunned during the fight and then I used my cc breaker and ward lol.

 

It wasn't made up at all, it happened on Tatooine and both guys were on the same level as me and had companions.

 

Sounds like you on the other hand would have just stood there and got beat up on, maybe you should stop relying on macros.

[Vlaid]

QFT

 

I was thinking about macros in pvp.

Auto target your damage dealing buddy wherever he may be near to you, even if he is not in front of your monitor, but actually at the back of you.

Heal him while you have him in target.

One button in sequence to heal, remove any nasty effects, buff him up, heal and whatever..

Just keep spamming that one button, and he'll be alright.

 

Now put that function in war zone like huttball, you have a force to be reckoned with.

 

To me, that's not competitive.

 

That's like driving a manual compared to driving auto, like a guy has mentioned before in this thread.

 

You can already do that by clicking their frame in the UI and it AUTO targets them wherever they are. You don't need to know direction distance or placement to heal, buff, or dispel a target, you only need to able to target him.

 

Your complaint that it allows people to auto-target someone (which it doesn't, unless it's your focus target your setup before hand in preparation of them taking heavy beatings....which is called skill) is just.....silly.

 

Macros don't let you auto-target anyone, they just let you target them faster without always having to lose your primary target and try to click through a spam of red healthbars to target the correct guy again.

[ajjw]

Excellent post OP, agree with everything.