I think the primary issue is just how frequently Imperial players are forced into the battleground. Certain mechanics (knockbacks into pits, for example) and the small size of the map really detract from the enjoyment - particularly when you're playing it constantly without any variation.

@ Mack - I'd also be concerned about the slippery slope effect, that's why I'm advocating for limited implementation. @Mad - Clearly didn't read the OP, all you're accomplishing is making yourself look foolish and ignorant.

Heh, if you want anyone to consider any of your statements valid perhaps you should try to avoid contradicting yourself. It is also clear that you failed to read the OP, and have no concept of what this thread is actually advocating for. You say "macro usage separates the noobs from the "men" (lol), and then continue and say that macros only purpose are to widen the gap between "experienced PvP players" and "casuals". So, which is it? Are macros utilized by experienced PvPers, or the "noobs"? Also, please actually read the OP before making unsubstantiated statements in ignorance. Thanks. @Chris - the screenshot that you posted looks to be from season 1 - and unless you're hiding the binding text on your binds, it looks as though you clicked your way to Glad. Where were you playing? BG3? Also, considering the extent to which the game has developed and evolved since early BC, that screenshot is hardly relevant to the current discussion.

Going to repost this quote: "Macros are a pretty broad term for certain convenience and advanced user functions at this time. Some of those features are present as possible key binds in the game, others are not. We’re not opposed to macros, we don’t hate them, in fact we will probably add them, but probably not for launch." -Georg Zoeller It's more than likely that we'll see at the very least a limited amount of macro support implemented in the future. I assume you all know who Georg Zoeller?

Your argument AGAINST macro use is that it allows healers to maximize their healing efficiency and avoid damage (that's considered optimal play in a PvP environment), and your other argument is directly contradicting the primary argument of essentially everyone else who opposes macros - that it promotes mouse use.

Fully support this statement, it's essentially reiterating what many of us have been saying: our interest in the implementation of macros with official support is not self-interest, our interest is in the continued development and improvement of PvP in TOR.

You neglected to demonstrate any knowledge of the macros that are being discussed in this thread. The example you cited is not the type of macro that this thread or most of its proponents are advocating for the implementation of.

And now that they've proliferated, not to use them is effectively gimping yourself. No one can argue that macros are a more efficient way to accomplish certain tasks. This increases the speed and fluidity of combat. The key word is competitive. As a competitor, you use every advantage given to you, and do your best to perform in an optimal matter. Bottom line, if all variables are equal other than macro usage, the side using macros will have a distinct advantage. So if you want truly competitive PvP, macros are going to have to be involved. Particularly in the case of focus and mouseover macros, nothing changes tactically. It's simply a more efficient, more effective way of accomplishing the same task. Period. @Above poster, the level of precision in movement that can be attained through a combination of mouse turning and strafing is superior to that which can be attained through keyboard turning, assuming equal competency with both forms of movement.

Considering the majority of players I've encountered in warzones up to this point backpedal and keyboard turn, it wouldn't require any more than basic competence.

Please demonstrate your sound grasp of macro mechanics by explaining the function of both focus and mouseover macros, and how they "destroy combat, make gameplay lazy, and eliminate skill from the game."

I think you misinterpreted the type of macro that most of us are advocating for - I think that most of your ignorance has been alleviated at this point. I am not dealing in generalizations, most of those I've seen posting in opposition to the implementation of macros have been citing examples of either Mods/Addons (which are an entirely separate entity altogether) or ridiculously complex castsequence macros, similar to those seen in Rift or other poorly developed games. Statements like "all the competent WoW PvPers I know hate macros" illustrate the staggeringly lofty level of ignorance present here.

Honestly, the majority of the people I've seen post in this thread opposing macros are casual PvPers with no real concept of a macros actual function, and simply don't want to see them implemented because they could not use them effectively and it would only widen the disparity between the best, and everyone else. Arguing with them is fruitless, most of these completely negative posters will remain stubbornly obstinate regardless of the information you make available to them.

The accessibility of WoW is one of the aspects which make it popular, yes. Others are - the huge budget, the enormous player base, the established nature of it, the developer, crisp, responsive gameplay and animations, and a good engine. Yes, the gameplay is at this point stale for many. Nevertheless, it has many positive qualities - qualities you'll find reflected in SWTOR, because SWTOR derives a huge amount from WoW, and for good reason.

Highly vague, highly generalized, broad, bigoted, jaded, unsubstantiated, ignorant and for the most part, utterly irrelevant. Graphics =/= gameplay. You are stating opinion as fact and making statements you cannot possibly support. You've made a fool of yourself here, with no encouragement from anyone else. You clearly have not spoken with any competent WoW PvPers. And finally, the only person I accused of trolling said, essentially "Lrn2play, GG". That is the very definition of trolling. That is not constructive in any way, that is not a rational argument, that is not conducive to constructive discourse, that is trolling and I identified it as such. Next.

Again, you are utterly misinformed. Not sure why you're associating macro usage with keyboard turning/clicking, but in WoW, the more competent the player, the more likely said player uses macros, extensively. And WoW sets the standard for MMO hotkey PvP currently, and that's just how it is. SWTOR has the potential, but it will be unrealized potential if BW doesn't implement at the very least limited macro support.

Anyone playing above 2000 MMR in WoW, either Arena or RBG would absolutely dominate the majority of the SWTOR PvPing population that I've seen. 2000 MMR, by the way, is mid-range. I'm not sure where you associated Macros with keyboard turning, but the opposite is the truth. If you're talking about MMO PvP, WoW is the ONLY place you'll find it played at the highest level currently. The game is hugely popular, established over many years, has a huge population and PvPing community - and the most extensively developed competitive PvP scene in the MMO market, by far. The game also supports Macros, which are considered absolutely vital to compete at higher levels. WoW arena was a part of the MLG circuit a couple of years ago. I'd like to see SWTOR PvP be similarly popular/competitive or even more so, which is why I'm advocating for macros.

I in no way support that type of macro, I'm glad we got some clarification.

Couldn't agree more, and thanks for the support. All in all I think this thread has been constructive, and also been a good source of entertainment during a dull work day. Great success, all in all.

You still don't seem to understand what I'm asking for. Focus macro functionality to use with the focus frames that I believe are already within the game. Such a macro would look like this: /cast [target=focus] "abilityname" Here's a mouseover macro - /cast [target=mouseover] "abilityname" Devilishly complicated, right? @Boba - I may have exaggerated to emphasize my point - effectively, I might add. There is no possible way to argue that you can recreate more quickly manually clicking than another player could with a focus macro.

A limited, controlled implementation including only a few key features would not create any issues. I'm not advocating for a system that allows players to create any type of macro they want with impunity. The title of the thread is a little broad, but I provided clarification in the OP, and in the TL;DR to a lesser extent. I see now that I was wrong to assume that people would actually read any of that. :/ @Night, what serious macros do you think I'm advocating for in the OP?

Again, you and I have an entirely different concept of what a macro is, particularly in the context of this thread. I have absolutely no difficulties excelling in SWTOR PvP, but my overall enjoyment is decreased by the absence of official support for certain features that I feel are vital, and that add complexity to the game in relatively indirect ways. Not that this is relevant to the argument I'm trying to make, but you seem unable to move past the "automated" nature of macros and consider some of the deeper implications. @Ragg - thanks for making an effort to understand what I'm actually advocating here. I'd fully support a limited implementation, I also would not like to see things devolve into a situation similar to Rift, as I feel that would negatively impact the game as a whole. Bottom line here, my concern is for the state of the game and the enjoyment to be derived out of it, my motives are not selfish as I've pointed out, just want what I feel is best for the continued development and success of the game.

No, I was merely stating fact, and perhaps implying that you should be a bit less sensitive when it comes to implied disparagement on an online video-game forum, is all. In regards to my personal PvP performance - prior to the introduction of full macro support in WoW, I dealt with the combat as it stood. As SWTOR PvP stands now, I am playing near optimally as the systems in game allow me to - does that mean I don't think the game would benefit from the introduction of focus and mouseover macros? No, nor should it. Again, the type of automation you are using in your examples and arguments is not what I am advocating for, nor do I support it. A great deal of contention could be avoided if people would just read what's been posted prior to posting themselves.

Again, my motives are not selfish. I am currently at an advantage as things stand, the implementation of macro support within the game would remove that advantage, but positively influence the game overall. @Th - Our opinions differ fundamentally, and that's okay. I'm not sure what purpose further argument will serve, other than constantly reiterating things that have already been said multiple times. Also, I don't get why you continue to persist in saying I ever claimed that macros were not inherently automated. You posted the definition by your own volition in order to make some ill-defined point, it was hardly new information to me. @Night - I think you're still a bit confused as to what exactly this thread is in support of and what we're advocating for. I've been "attacked" multiple times much more overtly, didn't bother me. You haven't addressed my arguments for wanting the particular macros I am advocating for in the game yet, which leads me to believe there's a lack of clarity.

Was it ever even suggested that there was not an element of automation in macros? It is inherent. What has been argued is that despite the automation, certain factors cause the usage of said macros to increase complexity in a natural way that positively affects gameplay, rather than enforcing awkward, un-necessary halters on gameplay to artificially raise some arbitrary skill cap that seems more based on masochism than anything else.

You clearly do not, as your ill-fitting steroids analogy illustrates. Your argument seems to be that you don't want to be forced to deal with the complexity of macros within the game and that if they were implemented you would be "forced" to use them to remain competitive. That, if anything, is a learn to play issue.