I know! It's crazy to me that they didn't do this because not only are there some MASSIVE storyline spoilers. There's also a huge skill wall as well. The original game's devs had some great ideas for level design, and you could really feel the progressive difficulty as you went through them.

Were all those hundreds of SM Flashpoints I ran the last couple of years just a dream then?

Why would I complain about KDY? They didn't take any content away from me, it was purely a bonus. And those levels were designed with that FFA group style in mind. Not like this where they took a hack saw to existing content.

Sorry, I'm mostly referring to level 50 content when I said end game there. But anyways. Look, the way I see it is that they took something that wasn't broken and was my only reason for logging in and playing. And they bastardized it in such a way that it's now unplayable for me in the style with which I am accustomed to. Yes, I can play Hard Modes still. But that isn't as fun to me as making new friends in the game during the journey- they're more there to be a grind. And can you even imagine the type of player that we're going to see enter Hard Modes now after slogging through a bunch of GOGOGOGO DPS heavy tactical groups? I'm guessing...pretty bad. I can understand why my reaction might seem extreme. But to me it's pretty rational.

Thing is that even if they were to reintroduce progression back to Flashpoints (so a level 15 can't immediately go into end game content), I can't imagine that they'll ever go back on this decision to go tactical after they put resource and development time into adding kolto stations and such. And losing the "holy trinity" group style is really the true deal breaker for me beyond anything else.

I think that taking away the "holy trinity" requirement is a much greater sin than this. But I agree with you 1000%. There's no story or skill progression for flashpoints anymore. Everyone may as well be level 65.

I still can't really get over this issue. My favorite thing to do in this game now no longer exists. So I have unsubscribed and after I sort out my guild today I'm going to delete the client as well. I do greatly regret not reading up about this "improvement" in enough detail over the last couple weeks, because my stupid sub renewed only a few days ago. So 15 dollars kind of down the drain...meh. I know that a "majority" of players on these forums think that traditional MMO group mechanics and the people who enjoy them are lame and don't belong in the community anyways, so I don't think that me or my playstyle will be missed by anyone. It's just a shame because I was actually looking forward to the update. My plan was to increase the membership of my leveling guild and show as many people the ropes on group play as much as possible. I figured that opening up the older Flashpoints to a larger player base would make my idea come to fruition much easier than before since I'd be able to play with guildies of any level and get some new ones through PUGs. But this implementation just...isn't going to work for me at all. Way too much of a mess. For those that love this update though- more power to you. I hope you enjoy yourselves.

The game died for me today. I don't think it's worth returning. All the old SM FP's are now functionally the same as Kuat Drive Yards in their role requirements. To see the traditional MMO group content features that have kept me subscribed over the years be relegated to end game only has really killed my desire to play anymore. I was going to live with all the other changes that I hate that have happened with the dumbification of companions. But that's the final straw. This game is KOTOR 3 now. It's good for subscribing for a month to play the storylines, and that's it.

The change to Tactical FP's seals the deal for me. I like a traditional MMO group experience with actual roles. I was expecting the level sync to happen for all the old SM FP's and I was looking forward to that. But I was in no way expecting to queue into something like False Emperor with 2 healers and 2 DPS. That's not what I signed up for, and I shouldn't have to wait for Hard Modes to enjoy group content. After the dust settles from companion complaints, I believe that more and more people are going to catch on to how crappy this now is. Don't get me wrong though- I am no fan of the Companion updates either! But I knew they were coming so my disappointment was tempered. This is really, truly a horrendous disaster of an update. If you think it's weird to see a ton of complaints, then I'm not sure we are playing the same game. But at least we definitely don't have anywhere close to the same tastes in said game.

Yeah I hate the comp changes. But I was expecting them and I'm living with it. But this? Man. I just don't know if I can stay subscribed anymore.\ I'm actually kind of surprised that I haven't really seen any complaints about this yet. I suppose that the Companion changes have kind of over shadowed everything else today. Also, the rage at not getting early access (something I couldn't care less about).

I'll admit that I didn't read into the changes very carefully. My assumption going in was that the only major change to Flashpoints would be the level syncing which would up lower level ones for higher levels. And that was just gravy for me because it would improve queue times across the board for all those pesky leveling FP's. But I didn't imagine you'd actually go so far as to remove role requirements for them....I queue for False Emperor and I'm greeted with two healers and two DPS. ***? I subscribe to this game because I enjoy the traditional group content experience. And that includes ACTUAL ROLE REQUIREMENTS. And I shouldn't have to wait for Hard Modes to be able to fulfill that desire. There's a reason I don't queue for Kuat Drive Yards and the like when I level: Playing with a group that has roles all over the place IS NOT FUN TO ME. That's my major gripe. Another more minor one is that there's now no progression because every single FP opens up at level 15. How in the world does it make sense for me as a new player to go from receiving missions from Darth Malgus in something like Hammer Station, then the next time I go I'm immediately tasked with putting him down? That's just...poor game design on every level. You should have kept the existing level walls for all of the Flashpoints. Hammer Station should be 15-65. Athiss should be 19-65. etc. etc. The way you designed it, what's even the point of leveling up at all? Ugh. Sorry for ranting guys. But FP's are literally the only thing I do in this game and this is a huge bummer. This is the first change SWTOR has ever made where I can say to myself "well, I'd have a better time if I just go back to WoW."

What I don't understand is why Andronikos- someone well known for dual wielding can no longer have two blasters. Yet Vette still can. Obviously the functionality still exists if she has them...so I just fail to see any logic behind the removal for him.

I subscribe because I enjoy Flashpoints. I think their challenge level is tuned really well and i get a lot of satisfaction from clearing everything from Storymodes on my various alts to Heroics.

I've been interested lately in trying out the no advanced class challenge for fun while 12x is still going on. The thing is that I enjoy Flashpoints and heroics quite a bit though. So to avoid being too much of a DPS burden (since that's the only role I'll be able to go as), I'm curious what you all would consider to be the most useful (and the least) out of those 4 classes for group content. Particularly as far as damage output is concerned.

I think that your opinion is perfectly valid, so I don't mean to dismiss it or anything. But as an RPer, if you really think about it. Doesn't it make more sense that your character on any given planet is only top tier in terms of power for that zone, as opposed to your character being like 20 times more powerful than everything else and practically invincible even when fighting against the largest and most fearsome monsters- Or hell, even a Sith/Jedi of a similar rank to you. I don't know if you ever played WoW, but back in the day there was kind of a conundrum in that the nation of Trolls were driven off of their main island by a level 10 witch doctor named Zalazane. In lore, this guy was practically one of the most powerful witch doctors of all time. And a max level heroic world faction boss couldn't even defeat him for years on end. But in game he was a level 10 mob that could easily be defeated by a player after an hour of playing. It became accepted at a certain point, that leveling and immersion are kind of separate in that you are likely a glorious and all powerful hero regardless of what part of the game you're in. And levels are just a means to an end for seperating content and keeping a character on a linear path through his or her adventure. Anyways. Your opinion on the matter is perfectly valid, because if that feeling of total power is what creates immersion and enhances your experience then more power to you. But just my two cents on the matter of the RP perspective.

I am someone who is very set in his ways, and generally dislike most change. For example I hate that SWTOR copied what WoW did with taking away skill trees last year or whenver. And I think that basically all the changes coming to companions are super lame. But this. I just am not really seeing the negative side of it, at least from my own perspective of how I generally play the game- which I'm sure differs from a lot of others! But the only reason I can think of for why I ever return to a lower level planet would be to have an easier time training up my gathering skills in a relatively aggro free environment. And that's really it. Not only that, but I'm sure that the fact I farm in that way pisses a certain segment of people off anyways. Now that's just me. I am someone who doesn't like to do dailies though. And I'm guessing that a lot of the angst is from people wanting to be able to do lower level dailies in an easier fashion. I don't really have an opinion on that complaint, so I don't have much to say on that end. But anyways. The way I see it, the positives would be: -World PvP. Because, hey. This actually makes me interested in leveling on a pvp server again. Instead of being 1 shot while leveling, you can actually have legitimate battles? That sounds freaking awesome, regardless of how small or large scale they would end up being. - World bosses actually being legitimate raiding content. Ok, that sounds awesome as well. No more level 60's camping "The One" and killing it over and over out of boredom. Instead it will become a fun adventure you go on, likely leading to more party members and guild mates. I don't know guys. I think it might be kind of cool. Maybe I'll end up hating it with every fiber of my being, and totally eat these words. Or maybe not. I guess we'll see

I really dislike the effect 12x has had on the community. But I really like the idea of a compromise being to make it be a legacy unlock. Most of you people who like 12x and are actually reading this thread are likely veterans of the game and generally enjoy the feature because you're sick of leveling alts. But the main source of problems and frustration is coming from brand new players- many of whom have never played an MMO before. So if someone at least has to play a main long enough to unlock a few legacy levels, and see the game as it was meant to be seen (such as being pushed into at least trying out those first beginner flashpoints Black Talon/Esseles, which aren't even relevant anymore when people leave starter worlds at like level 16), I would be pretty content. Contrary to what people believe, people like me who play this game for the MMO features don't want to dictate your play style if you prefer solo content. But at the same time we aren't going to be thrilled see the game completely lose its group incentives...and I believe that would continue to happen if 12x were to be extended in its current form.

You're right, my perfectly innocuous forum name. An alias I've been going by online with zero issues for the last 15 years in multiple gaming communities, and in no way represents what you think it does- is totally equally as bad as people wishing death upon other people of certain races, religions, sexual orientations, etc... ....*** are you smoking dude? This thread is a freaking feature request, nothing more. If you have a problem with me or my name then report it to the mods. Don't derail it with your childish garbage.

Well lets hope you never get the urge then. I'd hate to have my horrible, draconian play style ever thrust down your throat in any way!

I like how in a thread where I'm actively being called an evil dictator who wants to shove my ideals down the throats of everyone and force them to play the way I want simply because I gave reasons that I dislike 12x, me mentioning that FP queues are not popping as frequently anymore is what's being called up as an "overdramatization." Really, truly. This is the Twilight Zone. As far as the minority/majority is concerned. I am obviously the minority here on the forums, but I'm also not convinced that the forums are an accurate measuring stick for the will of the community. I'm pretty certain that there's still a large subsect who download this game with the intention of playing an MMO- which yes. Does generally include periodically grouping up with others to acheive various objectives. And just to make myself clear to those of you who think I want force you to play with me: Don't worry, I really have no desire whatsoever to play through any content with you. Please enjoy your single player experience to its fullest while not bothering me in my group content. In fact, I'll save you some legwork here (this is mostly towards MSchuyler, but hey anyone else wants to jump in as well go for it!): I have 4 characters I play on Harbinger: Belzack, Keeleon, Jaredson, and Saurgon. If you're on there, please ignore all of them so that the game will force us to never PUG together.

It would be nice if what few who are left didn't lurk in the shadows while people try to shout us out of threads though (literally someone has already told me to go away on top of calling me a Nazi lol). I mean, lets look at WoW for a moment. The community is full of toxic garbage and people who want an easy mode everything. But even there in that vile cesspool of a game I doubt people are actively trying to discourage MMO players from...playing an MMO. I really hope this is a case of a forum minority. Because if this is endemic of the community as a whole, this game isn't going to last a heck of a lot longer, regardless of expansions or upcoming movies.

Yeah the last time I played a lot was probably early 2014 and SM Flashpoints were still a real joy. People knew how to mark targets, how to do intelligent pulls, how to focus fire and manage aggro. As well as waiting before engaging a complicated boss to ask what the mechanics are. That's all really lacking right now because there's no sense of FP progression. Like I mentioned earlier, there is a reason that you get pushed into doing Black Talon and Esseles the way you do. It was a smart way to implement a beginner FP to get people on board and up to speed on how everything works. Follow that up with Hammer Station- which ups the difficulty and forces you to learn basic group dynamics of tank and spank . And includes an end boss that requires basic communication to know how to effectively tank and therefore beat. 12x has just kind of made that aspect of the game go *poof* and disappear. Sure, vets are thrilled they can finally level that alt they've been stuck on forever. But the ramifications for newer players is rather dire. And in my opinion, games like this should always be designed with new players in mind. Anyways I'm going on a tangent, but I'm definitely with you on being rather wary of the changes coming down the line. I hope that the switch to tactical SM Flashpoints will be a net positive change though, and not have as dire of ramifications on HM's as you (and I to an extent) fear.

I guess I just wasn't expecting to be on an MMO forum as a minority player who actually likes MMO's. It's kind of like I've entered the Twilight Zone or something.

I know right? Such audacity! How dare I enjoy playing through an MMO as it was originally intended.

I agree with you 1200% OP! It's kind of weird to me how many people here sneer at the prospect of group content. You all do realize this is an MMO and not KOTOR 3, right? Also they spent 200 million dollars on the vanilla content. I really doubt that it was the original developers vision that skipping 90% of it would become the norm. I must be getting old or something. I actually found the exp rates to be pretty darn high prior to the 12x implementation. I was often graying out quests by the time I was finishing up on planets as a subscriber, on top of running each FP at least once. I was also having a fun time running group content prior to 12x. Now, the rare times queues actually pop I find players who are running things for the first time on higher level FP's. People without the slightest bit of knowledge on how you play in a group, with total garbage gear (due to not having the time to learn how to gear properly) starting on something like The Foundry is just stupid There is a entry FP called Black Talon/Esseles for people to learn how to play in. But you know what happens when you finish class missions on a starting planet? You completely level out of it. That's just poor implementation, if you ask me. Oh, and don't even get me started on guilds...I had the poor foresight to think it would actually be a smart idea to create a guild a couple weeks ago with the intention of running group content. I was hoping to be able to play through the game with people to learn strenghts and weaknesses. Grooming up what would eventually be a decent core group for downing content. You know what the reality has been though? Even though I have specifically recruited old school MMO vets who actually enjoy group content, they are leveling so insanely fast over the course a matter of hours, that nobody is ever in similar enough level ranges to do content together. So they are hitting max level, left feeling a little unfullfilled, and then either quit or create another alt. Now this is where people will chime in "JUST USE THE WHITE ACUTE MODULE THEN." And you bet I do. But a hard to find opt-out item is not a fix for the problems I've been seeing. But there's nothing that can be done at this stage. All I hope is that when 12x is gone, it's gone for good. And that the major over-hauls we'll be seeing next month won't break group content any further. Because quite frankly, if I wanted to play a single player game I wouldn't be a subscriber to an MMO.