The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

[syntxerr]

I agree that the Guardian needs a buff and quite a significant one if you ask me.

 

Assuming we are talking about Tank specs, because that's what I have experience with, I can only wonder what the Game Designers were thinking or perhaps even smoking in terms of overall class balance, especially between the Tank classes.

 

For me the question is not whether or not solo PVE content is doable with a Guardian but how the Guardian performs compared to the other two tank specced classes. And that doesn't look that good in my opinion.

 

Alone by taking a look at the utility of a Shadow... he's got stealth, vanish, slows, knockbacks... basically CC galore. Oh, compare this with self healing and incredible DPS.

 

Pretty much the same goes for the Trooper, he's got a fair amount of CC as well, lacking stealth but makes it up with incredible AOE DPS. Taking out groups like a real champ without any difficulty.

 

Both of the above classes are also very good and hence very popular in PVP.

 

And then there is the Guardian. No utility, no CC, a struggle for AOE threat, especially compared to the two tanks above and a joke in PVP situations. When playing on my healers (Sage and Scoundrel) I actually often tend to completely ignore Juggernauts. Yes, I do. They pose the least of threat. I might knock them back or off some ledge or throw them the occasional slow but that's only to annoy them a bit and add insult to injury. It doesn't bother me much having one of them standing next to me and tickling a bit.

 

Seriously, something needs to change there. I do understand the three tank capable classes all have different mechanics but there needs to be some kind of balance. The current situation is a bad joke. How this passed Beta, I really don't know.

[vipeka]

Get to 50 , own every AC and get god tier status.

Below 50 you'll be meh tier though.

[Purecrew]

As a level 50 juggernaut in full Tier 2 pvp tank gear, Champion gear for those or you that don't know. I know leveling was not hard, I leveled as immortal spec with Vette 100% of the time, I couldn't stand leveling with Quinn **** died to slowly. I didn't notice any problems with leveling like that, I had to heal after 2-3 groups. This wasn't much of a problem. I started leveling with 2 of my friends and passed them up, One was a Op another was a assassin.

 

As of now I have my full pvp tank set and starting to get Tier 2 PvE gear for Raid tanking and Hardmode tanking. I have noticed a huge problem with threat. It's more like I have to be playing the best I possibly can and be constantly aware/moving/taunting mobs which is a nice change of pace from WoW and Rift, But I'm half the tank a Powertech can be when played with the same skill level.

 

Even with the small problems I have I will continue to play my Juggernaut as I know eventually everything will level out and I'll be at an even playing field.

 

 

Excuse any typing errors as this wireless keyboard at work sucks with key inputs.

[dargor-]

The real problem is they don't want to give knights/warriors more damage because of PvP. This then cause the class to suck at both leveling and holding threat.

 

Not to mention useless skills that were put there just to make you push an extra button, looking at you Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault >.>

[Guaritorr]

At 45 I haven't had a huge issue with questing yet, and I do nearly everything with Vette (only bring out Quinn for the hard stuff and heroic 2+'s). Sure, I need to heal after every fight or two, but really, its like 5 seconds to heal and move on.

 

There'd be no downtime if I kept Quinn out all the time, but me and Vette have a sorta Malgus/Eleena thing going on...

 

For heroic 4's and Flashpoints though, it can get pretty rough with our serious lack of positioning abilities and aoe aggro. Thankfully I run with a decent group of RL friends on vent (check my sig!) and we're good about coordinating our CC even during pulls when adds show up. Thinking about it, I suppose I could try to work in Force Push to move a mob into a group of other mobs... but thats a LOT more work then force pull/grapple.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Guaritorr

[SuperSair]

I have a Vanguard about 5 levels under my Guardian.

 

A Guardian has to work two times as hard as Vanguard to keep agro, five times if it's multiple targets, and does about half the amount of threat a Vanguard does.

 

Vanguard has can put threat on at range, and has a charge and harpoon to work with as well as a front loaded resource that can be used to put on a lot of threat really quick. Guardian on the other head has to get in close, deal with the OBSCENE amount of knockbacks that ALL mobs seem to have, and do weak attacks to build resources to do SLIGHTLY less weaker attacks and gain relatively weak threat.

 

I feel like Knights need a base run speed increase of almost 20% in order to deal with all of this crap.

 

And finally on the defensive side. Guardians rely heavily on defense, or avoidance, and a incredibly weak damage shield while Vanguard's high shield rating allows them to take a steady and manageable amount of damage while the Guardian takes it all in spikes. The only plus side is that Guardians can apply their debuff in AoE form, while Vanguards must target individually, and Guardain cool downs are generally better.

 

Everyone hates WoW comparisons but Guardian tanks are essentially Death Knights in heroic Firelands, without good threat. And there was no reason to use a Death Knight, unless for a gimmick fight like Baleroc. Guardians just take more damage in a worse way.

 

To sum it all up; Vanguards are so much better in every way than a Guardian that it gives no reason to ever use one over the other.

[WikiWeasel]

Maruaders are pretty useless in pvp.

 

No CC's no knocbacks ranged classes do more damage. im sorry but whats the point in them?

 

Assasins and snipers have got alot more use and better survivabilty.

[Griefhook]

Someone said that melee +healer = win. Now this is not WOW. TBH Healer + Ranged > Healer + Melee. Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior need a healer to be viable...others don't and are even better with.

 

For Sentinals I don't think it is an issue of damage done. I think the problems are all around CC, and knockbacks. We get knocked back, we get remved from combat, and then we get dealt with. Range don't have this issue, you knck them back and they still hurt you, you bring them close they still hurt you. You give them a healer too, and they will always out perform you as you need to be in melee range to kill them.

 

I have a 50 sentinal. I leveled to 50 with no issues. I have owned all the PvE content bar the Emp (gearing up for that fight). I am leveling a number of ranged classes at the moment, and I am having a blast at PvP. I have noticed straight away the gulf / gap between Trooper, Bounty hunter, Sithy Sorcy to my Sentinal. Even at low levels (not 50) I have been impressed with the game play of these ranged classes. ow easy and fun PvP becomes when not playing my Sentinal. Knowing Sentinal well...I focus these guys on my ranged classes, as it is easier to rack up kills and damage done.

 

Very good indicator is MVP when was the last time you saw an JK or SW mvp? Rare very rare. I'd like to see the stats for the PvP for MVP votes, and damage done.

[Griefhook]

From the post titled: Sith Marauders Do Need Improvement:

 

I am level 50 Marauder specialized under the Rage tree. To be honest I did not have that much trouble reaching 50 in the PvE environment. Groups of mobs were a little bit tough sometimes, more than one Silver Elite was a quite a bit of a challenge, but with clever uses of my Saber Ward and Cloak of Pain, and using Quinn to heal, I “generally” made it through unscathed. Many people have said it’s impossible to level Marauders PvE and that we’re broken, well I just don’t think that is the case; but it is quite tough, I’ll give you that.

 

I did PvP while leveling, and am currently gearing at 50. I’ve been lucky so far at 50 receiving 4 pieces of gear from Champion Bags, so that has eased the stress of attempting to grind Warzone Commendations especially now that my health has reached near 14k; it’s a start. On this topic though, from a Marauder standpoint, we have a tough time occasionally. Anyone that has PvP’d at all knows that it can be a melee unfriendly environment. Is it impossible? Once again, no it’s not. But if I don’t have a healer, because my buddy is unavailable, life is much rougher. Sometimes it seems that every class is ranged. I know that’s not the case, but it feels like it. I feel like a kite on a windy day. I still do top 5 damage near every time (most often top 3 even), and rack up a boat load of kills. But it is a far cry to say that I dominate. No one class should dominate, that’s called OP and someone will inevitably QQ about it.

 

My thoughts though are this: Both Marauders and Juggs should have more health. Period. If we scaled every toon to 50 with the exact same gear, melee classes should have more health. It just makes sense. I can live with the stuns from Operatives, and the kiting by Sorcs, but a little extra HP would be nice so that I could at least get closer to the enemy to make it look like a fight.

 

Armor. Didn’t Marauders utilize heavy armor in Beta? Things change, but I think this should still be. High damage generally = Low survivability, but where is the line? We are a melee class first to charge in. We are not tanks, nor should we be, but we should have a greater damage reduction other than our talents like Saber Ward and CoP give us. It would be nice to have a little extra protection while I’m trying to recover from a stun and that Operative is whipping me in the back. Now going back to my last point, if melee classes should have more health, should they have more armor too? For the Operatives and Assassins no because they have stealth and ways to escape more effectively. But we Marauders stand there and have nowhere to run (unless you count Force Camouflage as effective escape. It’s nice but doesn’t fool anyone 5 seconds later.)

 

Are Marauders useless? No. Are we broken? No. But we could use some buffs. We should be more resilient than we are. We should not be tanks and should not be in the same league as a tank, but we should be able to last longer than a few hits against nearly every other class that feels the need to drag us around. I’m hoping to reach Developers on this. I know that some will agree and some will poopoo my post, but regardless I know that many people feel the same way. Not to dominate, but to sustain longer.

 

A very good post, and one that I agree with. I don't need more damage...I need more up time in PvP. If not more health and armour I'd like our PvE CC to work on PvP. That would make life a lot more interesting.

 

Though Shamarick I'd like to know where you consistently come in the damage done without your friend healer.

[TheRealBrave]

Maruaders are pretty useless in pvp.

 

No CC's no knocbacks ranged classes do more damage. im sorry but whats the point in them?

 

Assasins and snipers have got alot more use and better survivabilty.

 

Marauders and Sentinels are nasty in PvP at 50. Can easily top DPS every round. They are fine, just hard to play.

[Griefhook]

Marauders and Sentinels are nasty in PvP at 50. Can easily top DPS every round. They are fine, just hard to play.

 

lol never seen it...Screen shots or it didn't happen hehehe

[LaManoNera]

I have no complaints about my Guardian's performance in PvE.

 

PvP wise...

 

I'll wait until I'm not in my 20s getting roflstomped by a gang of level 50s in full purple PvP gear to judge.

[Shamarick]

A very good post, and one that I agree with. I don't need more damage...I need more up time in PvP. If not more health and armour I'd like our PvE CC to work on PvP. That would make life a lot more interesting.

 

Though Shamarick I'd like to know where you consistently come in the damage done without your friend healer.

 

I still usually fall in that top 5 of damage. Having a healer can keep me in the top 3 or first consistently. But yes, if all I strive for is damage, then top 5. However, if im trying to pass, run, or defend the ball in huttball my numbers can be lower. But in pure damage situations, i faire quite well.

[darthtoph]

Marauders and Sentinels are nasty in PvP at 50. Can easily top DPS every round. They are fine, just hard to play.

 

lol never seen it...Screen shots or it didn't happen hehehe

 

Random screenshots from decent/fun matches:

http://christopherfischer.no/swtor/sentinel/pvp/

 

All pug/solo entry, no premade (don't got any) vs. decent lvl 50s, premades and sometimes not so decent players. As you can see from the screenshots I don't even bother with stim/medpacks.

 

Sentinels are fine just the way they are. L2P!

Edited January 4, 2012 by darthtoph

[Quor]

Someone said that melee +healer = win. Now this is not WOW. TBH Healer + Ranged > Healer + Melee. Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior need a healer to be viable...others don't and are even better with.

 

For Sentinals I don't think it is an issue of damage done. I think the problems are all around CC, and knockbacks. We get knocked back, we get remved from combat, and then we get dealt with. Range don't have this issue, you knck them back and they still hurt you, you bring them close they still hurt you. You give them a healer too, and they will always out perform you as you need to be in melee range to kill them.

 

I have a 50 sentinal. I leveled to 50 with no issues. I have owned all the PvE content bar the Emp (gearing up for that fight). I am leveling a number of ranged classes at the moment, and I am having a blast at PvP. I have noticed straight away the gulf / gap between Trooper, Bounty hunter, Sithy Sorcy to my Sentinal. Even at low levels (not 50) I have been impressed with the game play of these ranged classes. ow easy and fun PvP becomes when not playing my Sentinal. Knowing Sentinal well...I focus these guys on my ranged classes, as it is easier to rack up kills and damage done.

 

Very good indicator is MVP when was the last time you saw an JK or SW mvp? Rare very rare. I'd like to see the stats for the PvP for MVP votes, and damage done.

 

I get 1-3 MVP votes per Huttball, and 0-2 per Voidstar/Alderaan.

 

I also have managed to finish Huttball in about 3.5 minutes thanks to some great passing, good use of Intercede, and a team that knew what they were doing.

[Laids]

Agree with the OP, as soon as I hit Alderaan I noticed it. Basically pre-30 I was doing fine, pop low CD abilities every now and again, it's how the class is designed. Then I went to Alderaan at 30, 2 levels higher than most of the mobs and I was being destroyed, ending fights with around 1k health and rebuke and saber ward both on CD, occasionally having to pop a med-pac.

 

Also why do Sentinals get disable droid as a CC, it should be a disable against human targets, give the tech using classes disable droid if you really want it in game.

 

Lastly, Watchmen spec Jedi have zero burst, it's pathetic, our dots ticking for double digits is laughable. Don't even get me started on our 'Healing'.

 

I'M BEING HEALED FOR 200 HEALTH AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!

Edited January 4, 2012 by Laids

[Durio]

It's absolutely true that Juggernauts do not do as much damage as other classes. But THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO. Juggernauts are meant to be tanks.

 

Juggernauts are Tanks or DDs and should be able to deal equal damage in comparison to Sorcerers, Assasins, Operatives, Powertechs and Mercs.

 

/proven fact not even able to discuss this.

 

As it stands right now juggernauts are a joke.

[Durio]

Humm, this must be because of uptime on target (ie sentinels / marauders have to move out). The top dps almost certainly needs to be one of the pure dpser acs because of a lack of heals or defensive abilities ( so sentinel/marauder/gunslinger/sniper). Please note, I am playing none of the above.

 

Sniper has a lack of defensive abilities? I'd like you to take a look at his skills and talent tree son.

[Psytic]

Guys your going about this all wrong. You cant wear tank gear and spec tank if you want to be a wrecking ball in pve. best thing to do and i've said this before is rock vigillence or focus but use the defensive stance. Start stacking str and crit or str and power. You cant expect do sick dmg wearing endurance and absorb gear. You need to gear and spec like a dps. Works better for me because I drop stuff so fast Doc doesn't have to heal me nearly as much. Even before Doc I decked Kira out and sent her in first to tank and things worked out pretty well to with med pacs

 

Edit: In pvp you can bang out 2.5k crits with the overhead slash and Blade Storm Combo. No healing debuff though and my absorb is around 40%ish so less survivability then tank spec obviously but that's the trade off.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Psytic

[Krusedullfaen]

I'll start off by saying that I have not levelled a warrior/knight past 25, just for the record.

 

In the time I have played a Juggernaut and later Guardian though, I must say I simply feel weak. Especial when I have a level 30 Mercenary and 25 Commando (yes, I'm an altoholic.)

 

My Merc/Commando can utterly destroy any group with ease and neither has had any issues so far that weren't entirely my fault. Those classes feel powerfull, which was one of the design goals of the game, when I play a Merc or Commando I feel like a ******, able to take down almost anything and save the galaxy/make tons of money in the process.

 

But then something happened, I wanted to play a Jedi Knight. I'm simply tired of the dark side, I no longer enjoy playing a complete jerk and if I'm going light side it makes much more sense to me to do it as a Jedi, rather than Sith. Not to mention that I've enjoyed the Republic leveling content (up to 25) much more.

 

Now, in contrast to my earlier experience, my Guardian feels weak. The people that are widely renowned as the greatest warriors in the galaxy certainly do not feel that way when you play as one.

 

I won't pretend to know what it's like above 25, I don't. I won't pretend to know all the numbers behind it and I will not claim to be an expert player who does everything right. I have a lot to learn, I admit that years of WoW has made me soft. But something that is very clear to me is that the Knights and Warriors, both their advanced classes need to be buffed. By how much I can't really say, but as they are now they simply aren't enjoyable to play.

 

Those are my two credits, take it for what it's worth. I just thought I should get my views out there to show support for the "Buff Knights" cause.

[Fenrith]

I play a Vigilance Guardian at level 25. I am not happy with how hard things have been for me lately. I have not done any PvP yet, so I'm judging strictly on PvE performance.

 

The way I've been playing, and correct me if I just need to "l2p", is by trying to open a fight with force jump, netting me three focus at the start. I usually get hit right away, and this gives me another focus point thanks to Shien form. At this point, if I'm facing a group, I use force sweep for AoE and a very short stun. I proceed to use Sundering Strike and let loose a blade storm, which pops an AoE as well. This usually takes care of weaker mobs, so I move on to the others, using Strike to build focus, mixing in Sundering Strike when it's off the CD and using slash when I can and Riposte when I can. For stronger enemies I mix in Master Strike, and use more Blade Storms when they are off of CD. When I'm facing a tough enemy or a large group, I use Saber Ward, praying to God it's off its three minute CD. I can also mix in force Stasis, the ONLY move which can actually stun a decently powerful enemy, but it's on a minute CD.

 

Now, even when doing ALL of this, I leave typical three enemy fights at 70% hp, barely survive fights where a silver is mixed in, come out low after fighting two groups of three at once, and if a silver happens by when I don't expect it, I'm lucky to survive. And I have to heal after every three mob fight, just in case I have to face a silver.

 

But, none of this is the big problem. No, the big problem is that I haven't beaten a gold mob fight on the first try since Taris. I usually die, and have to finish the fight after taking out accompanying enemies the first time. I died three times on a same level class quest enemy. When I beat him, I had to use Call on the Force (20 minute cooldown), use a medpac, use Saber Ward, us Force Stasis, Kira died, and I STILL barely managed to survive.

 

I'm a DPS specced Guardian wearing Sythweaved heavy armor, using almost the best lightsaber mods I can get at my level outside of crew skills. This is just not right. I die to quickly, and it feels like my companion does more damage than me. I barely dent enemies HP.

 

SO, unless I'm doing something drastically wrong, Jedi Guardians are pretty underpowered for PvE, at least for level 20-25. And from what I'm hearing, it doesn't seem to be getting any better. I don't consider myself the most skilled player, but I am definitely experienced. I shouldn't be consistently dying on class quests.

[PaintOnASign]

I play a Vigilance Guardian at level 25. I am not happy with how hard things have been for me lately. I have not done any PvP yet, so I'm judging strictly on PvE performance.

 

<snip>

 

Elite mobs typically aren't easily solo'd by a DPS class without a healer or tank companion after Coruscant/Dromund Kaas. Even then, healing companions may have a tough time keeping you up, and the tank may die with the Elite mob still around 10% health. If you're fighting more than ONE Elite (gold) mob as a DPS and expect to survive with just your companion, you're insane. Don't even think about taking on a Champion.

 

As my Jedi Shadow (Lv27) as a tank, I could still solo most Heroic 2's. As a DPS Commando (Lv37), I had no chance at solo'ing Heroic 2's if the packs included either 2 elites, or 1 Elite and 2 Strong's, let alone solo'ing any Champion, companion just cant heal through that much damage if you're DPS. Tanks have a much easier time tanking Champions with a healing companion.

 

Anyway, I agree, JK/SW are definitely lacking some form of CC to handle the really tough packs. As a Commando, I could at least take any 1 mob out of the fight indefinitely, not to mention that I could heal if need be.

Edited January 4, 2012 by PaintOnASign

[Magthere]

Apparently I've missed something, because my experiance as an immortal Jugg seems to have been significantly different from the other Sith Warriors on this forum.

 

My background comes as a 12 year veteran of MMOs and have played a Warrior in WoW for the past 7 years.

 

I felt leveling as an Immortal Spec jugg was very easy. I used Vette until I got Quinn and used him until I got Jaesa. I have since used her all the way up to and including doing my Ilum and Belsalvis dailies. I'm not sure where people are coming from with the complaint that you can't do anything without using Quinn. While using him certainly makes fights a joke in that I can focus purely on a DPS rotation and have zero downtime between fights, neither have I had problems using Jaesa who gets me through fights quicker, but requires me to take 10 seconds after a fight to use Focus Rage.

 

I stepped on Ilum and destroyed everything out of the gate. I was wearing only what I had obtained leveling up, purchased with Correlian commendations and crafted using Artificing.

 

I do agree that Jugg leveling seems to slow to a crawl between 40 - 48, but post 48 and certainly post 50 things are solid and I have little problem holding my own against 2 strongs and 2 normals or elite mobs, especially with Quinn at my back.

 

As to our balance in PVP. First we do have CC, we have 2 very nice CCs. Force Choke as an immortal spec jugg is basicly a 3 second stun + rage generation, we then also have back hand. Ravage by the way is awesome when combined with one of those stuns.

 

Second I've found that yes certain ACs destroy us in 1v1, but on the other hand there are certain ACs that we destroy in 1v1. It's the classic rock, paper, scissors of PVP design.

 

Outside of 1v1 battles it becomes important to know your role. As a tank spec I've learned that I basicly have 1 job (2 if you count hutt ball). Guard the person who is going to do the most dmg/healing/ball carrier or be the ball carrier. When some friends and I que for PVP as Sith Assassin, Sith Sorcerer, Mercenary and myself we destroy hutt ball. This is because we all follow our rolls. Sorc heals, Merc kills and the Assassin and I trade off protecting each other and the other two while trading the ball. Unless your on a PVP server keep in mind that PVP like PVE is a team sport.

 

FPs are another area where people seem to complain about Juggs, but the hard modes I have done have been very easy when you communicate with your DPS, use proper CC and don't sweat tanking the normal mobs. Single target threat has been amazing for me thus far. Especially when you learn to be very fluid with your guard ability and switch it's target often.

 

So personally I have seen no problems with the Immortal spec Jugg. This is of course my own perspective, so it is possible issues exist with the Marauder and Rage/Vengance juggs.

 

I'm not going to say that those of you having a hard time with the Jugg are bad players or unskilled, because it's likely not the case. However you may need to take the time to sit down and analyze where you may be going wrong.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Magthere

[Noth]

Apparently I've missed something, because my experiance as an immortal Jugg seems to have been significantly different from the other Sith Warriors on this forum.

 

My background comes as a 12 year veteran of MMOs and have played a Warrior in WoW for the past 7 years.

 

I felt leveling as an Immortal Spec jugg was very easy. I used Vette until I got Quinn and used him until I got Jaesa. I have since used her all the way up to and including doing my Ilum and Belsavlis dailies. I'm not sure where people are coming from with the complaint that you can't do anything without using Quinn. While using him certainly makes fights a joke in that I can focus purely on a DPS rotation and have zero downtime between fights, neither have I had problems using Jaesa who gets me through fights quicker, but requires me to take 10 seconds after a fight to use Focus Rage.

 

I stepped on Ilum and destroyed everything out of the gate. I was wearing only what I had obtained leveling up, purchased with Correlian commendations and crafted using Artificing.

 

I do agree that Jugg leveling seems to slow to a crawl between 40 - 48, but post 48 and certainly post 50 things are solid and I have little problem holding my own against 2 strongs and 2 normals, especially with Quinn at my back.

 

As to our balance in PVP. First we do have CC, we have 2 very nice CCs. Force Choke as an immortal spec jugg is basicly a 3 second stun + rage generation, we then also have back hand. Ravage by the way is awesome when combined with one of those stuns.

 

FPs are another area where people seem to complain about Juggs, but the hard modes I have done have been very easy when you communicate with your DPS, use proper CC and don't sweat tanking the normal mobs. Single target threat has been amazing for me thus far. Especially when you learn to be very fluid with your guard ability and switch it's target often.

 

So personally I have seen no problems with the Immortal spec Jugg. This is of course my own perspective, so it is possible issues exist with the Marauder and Rage/Vengance juggs.

 

I'm not going to say that those of you having a hard time with the Jugg are bad players or unskilled, because it's likely not the case. However you may need to take the time to sit down and analyze where you may be going wrong.

 

 

Most issues are not with the Immortal spec, but the dps specs. For example, it is better to level in soresu and not your tree's form because you give up so much durability, and lack real stuns, heals, and ability to flat out avoid damage (being ranged and kiting), while putting out lesser numbers than other dps specs.

[Magthere]

Well then you folks have my heart felt sympothy. It's never fun to be an underpowered class. Hopefully they'll get on it and fix the issues you are experiancing.