Balance/Madness issue and Bioware said the goal is to balance all classes?

[ThatEvilDude]

Taking the 25% reduction off lightning would mean that it did more dps than a buffed lightning strike, which would make lightning strike pretty much irrelevant. The best way of fixing it (IMO) would be to reduce the health absorbed by leech and increasing the damage done there and increasing the damage done by lightning strike. The issue with increasing damage done by lightning strike would be if it were buffed too much and ended up being better than lightning bolt (when buffed). I would expect that a 10-15% boost in the base damage of those abilities would get you somewhere close to the numbers currently being hit by other classes, although the rotation is still a little out of sync (and gets worse if you hit alacrity at the wrong time and reduce the CD on some abilities and not others or increase the ticks of some dots).

 

I agree with this. Wrath needs to be buffed, but as far as removing clunkyness from the rotation, I love the idea of having the ability to proc Force Leech/Force Serenity from Wrath/Presence of Mind. It gives us a choice. We can use the Wrath proc for Leech in a regular rotation, or we can save Leech, and use it back to back with Deathfield/Force in Balance and Vanquish/Demolish to get some burst if we need it. This way it adds an element of skill to get what you need out of the class.

 

However, as nice as the above would be I don't see Bioware adding that change.

 

I realistically would like to see:

 

~A 20-25% damage boost to Disturbance/Lightning Strike (in tree)

~A 10-15% buff to Wrath/Presence of Mind (to make Disturbance do more damage than Telekinetic Throw)

~The return of the 25% damage boost from Sever Force/Leeching Terror on Target to Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning (It added some complexity to the rotation, and primarily benefitted PvE rather than PvP where it required set up time which wasn't always available) [Don't think this will happen]

~A 33%-50% decrease in Healing (I feel like an invincible god in PvP due to it, and I hate that)

~An increase in the cooldown of Force Serenity/Force Leech (by 3 seconds to 15s) [The reason for this is for rotation organization].

~A fix for the 180/186 Sage Set Bonus (I can't use my legacy gear at the moment because it only works on my sorc and not my sages)

 

Realistically I don't think we will get many of these.

I do think there is going to be a change in our utility tree where bubble stun is no longer a Tier 2 Utility and becomes Tier 3.

[TACeMossie]

I dont think we'll see wrath affecting leeching strike, for one its a stupid idea because then force mobility becomes useless.

 

There are a few things I'd like fixed:

 

1. Resource management - the 2 second TK Throw/Lightning still uses 36 force despite doing the damage of 3 ticks (27 force) - I'm of the opinion that Psychic Projection/Lightning Barrage should also reduce the cost of TK Throw/Force Lightning by 25%

2. Presence of Mind/Wrath - Barely a DPS increase to incorporate Lightning Strike, so increase the proc back to a 35% damage boost. Slightly drop the base damage of Vanquish if you have to in order to incorporate this.

3. Life Leech + AoE Capabilities - Only beaten by lightning because it has a surge boost on force storm to contend with, Madness needs this toned down. Especially with the HP Leech capabilities it has. I'd drop it down to a 10% leech from all DoTs, and a 15% leech from Force in Balance.

4. Finally, return a Surge boost to the spec, putting it on Disturbance/Lightning Strike, Force Serenity/Force Leech, and Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning.

[Citruzz]

from dps sight i think a lightning sorc is at the same dps level, maybe a little stronger than io merc. But through better survivability, mercs gain the upper hand.

[JDotter]

Found a bug today

 

 

Lighting Burns eating Deathmark ticks (no additional damage)

[TACeMossie]

Found a bug today

 

 

Lighting Burns eating Deathmark ticks (no additional damage)

 

Well, that sucks.

 

Though lightning burns might be the thing we need to improve to fix up sustained!

 

What if it was just changed to be a 50% chance on all direct damage to activate (and it was improved from 1 second to 0.5 seconds to prevent FL clipping it). That could probably do it, and it doesn't affect its AoE at all. So long as Death Field isn't able to activate it.

Edited January 1, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Galothor]

I think we need the following changes (mainly from a PvP point of view):

 

1) Force Leech needs to become instant. The biggest issue here is that BW does not want to change it, because then Force Mobility would be useless for Madness Sorcs and they would have to admit that they made a mistake making Force Leech a cast. BUT sins got the same ability as an instant that hits even harder than our 1.5 sec cast does. Madness depends too heavily on kiting and Force Lightning for it to have even more abilities that require you to stand still. And at least in PvP, unlike for Corruption and Lightning, there is very little incentive to use Force Mobility if you are spec'ed Madness. That is due to the Fact that Force Leech is just not as powerful as Innervate and Thundering Blast are in comparison, and due to the fact that your damage over time requires you to kite longer / more than with Lightning. Thus you should prefer

 

2) Higher hits with both Death Field and Force Leech to give Madness some Burst

 

3) Move from focus on AoE damage to focus on Single Target damage. This will decrease the overall damage ppl see at the end of a wz, and thus the whining going on. Further more it will put sorcs on par with other classes and will allow for effective cc with a sorc on the team. Currently, if you want decent dps (not even good) you have to spread your DoTs, which leads to big overall damage, but problems killing anyone in 1on1, and prevents any effective use on softstuns as the dots will immediately break the stuns. This should include a buff to Wrath (for reasons, see the other posts).

 

4) I don't really see a big problem with the self-heal, but I am playing arena where you can dot a maximum of 4 ppl and not 8. If it is really necessary to change the selfheal, I would suggest to make it single target as well. That is that DoTs applied via DF won't provide heal. In return some adjustments to the amount healed by DF, directly applied DoTs, and Force Leech might be necessary.

 

5) Move Emersion to the Skillful tier! Why?

a) It is vital and fundamental part of sorc survivability

b) Skillful tier utilities are basically useless, unless you are one of those noobs going for max dps in wz.

c) Sins, who already have a lot of cc immunity and are in much less need for it than sorcs are, also get it in tier 2.

 

6) Change back Creeping Death to additional crit damage on Death Field and Force Leech (depending other changes maybe even on FL). That additional damage of DoTs on targets below 30% is basically useless, unless you are fighting a Boss with a huge amount of HP. And even then it is not necessarily better. Don't be too proud to admit the mistake you made here, when you changed Creeping Death.

[Ycoga]

- either add deathfield to the execute phase, or scrap it completely for a flat 5-10% dmg increase to all attacks sub 30%

 

Just my thoughts, ive more than likely missed things aswell but these are the most obvious problems that stand out to me

 

You clearly aren't playing correctly.

[Master-Nala]

RE: Force Leech/Force Serenity

 

It's pretty clear that the developers wanted to add a cast to Madness/Balance. However, I think this was done improperly. Since the spec was first shown, they added more goodies to Force Leech to make it worth casting in the presence of already acceptable self-healing. Unfortunately in doing so they took damage from powers that clearly needed it for the spec to function. Especially, Lightning Strike/Disturbance. It's clear that Wrath/POM procs are intended to be eaten by LS/Disturbance when Mind Crush/CD is on cooldown. But it's just not worth it anymore.

 

If I could have what I want for Balance/Madness:

 

1) Lower the damage reduction from Psychic Projection by about 5%-10% (so that it still channels 33% faster, but reduces damage by only 15%-20%.)

2) Lower the health return from Force Leech/Serenity to 15% Base/30% with Focused Insight but up the damage considerably

3) Return the 30% crit bonus to FiB/Death Field and the DoTs. If 30% is too much adjust downward as needed.

 

And if DoT spread that no one asked for has to be removed or nerfed, so be it.

[ceazare]

Found a bug today

 

 

Lighting Burns eating Deathmark ticks (no additional damage)

 

There is additional damage though. Benefits from 10% passive dot damage from discipline too, probably execute talent as well. Basically it's a dot. I actually thought it's been that way since 2.0.

 

Sage equivalent, Rippling Force, doesn't get any of that.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ceazare

[Galothor]

RE: Force Leech/Force Serenity

 

If I could have what I want for Balance/Madness:

 

1) Lower the damage reduction from Psychic Projection by about 5%-10% (so that it still channels 33% faster, but reduces damage by only 15%-20%.)

2) Lower the health return from Force Leech/Serenity to 15% Base/30% with Focused Insight but up the damage considerably

3) Return the 30% crit bonus to FiB/Death Field and the DoTs. If 30% is too much adjust downward as needed.

 

And if DoT spread that no one asked for has to be removed or nerfed, so be it.

 

Those are quite good change suggestions. Though, with all the mobility and cc immunity / cleanses that other classes have, I really think Force Leech needs to become an instant ability as we are already forced to basically perma spam Force Lightning to get our Wrath procs so we can use Demolish and Lightning Strike.

And the higher the damage of this ability is, the higher is the probability that it will get interupted. But since this ability is vital not only to our dps, and to what little burst we got, but especially also to our suvivability it should not be interupted whenever we try to use it. It like if our interupt could interupt 3 enemy abilities at once. And just to point it out, the sin's Leeching Strike is instant as well, they could have gotten a 30m 1,5 sec cast as well. But it would harm them as much as it currently harms us.

I should also point out that the absolute amount of self heal from Force Leech should not be reduced (by much) if you increase its damage. That is unless it will hit for huge numbers (5 digits).

 

I am not sure we should put more emphasis on FL either. I think it would be better to add some damage to Death Field, Force Leech, Demolish, Wrath to create some more variety and less dependance on one ability. I don't want to become an idiot that is only spamming FL because it's better than everything else. That being said, I don't think a 5%-10% increase would cause that. But putting more emphasis on the other abilities would really be nice, as it will make the spec more interesting to play.

 

I strongly support the removal of DoT spread. Though if you remove it, you have to add some, if not all, of the self heal coming from DoTs to other abilities or increase the amount DoTs heal.

 

And you are also 100% right about Creeping Death.

[ChroniKill]

 

It's pretty clear that the developers wanted to add a cast to Madness/Balance. However, I think this was done improperly.

Agreed. Personally I'd leave Leech as the static cast and add force mobility to force lightning, although this would then mean that healers and lightning sorts could also do it on the move (I'm sure you could code that out though).

 

If I could have what I want for Balance/Madness:

 

1) Lower the damage reduction from Psychic Projection by about 5%-10% (so that it still channels 33% faster, but reduces damage by only 15%-20%.)

If force lightning /TKT damage is increased it becomes even less desirable to use lightning strike/Disturbance, probably to the point where the proc'd attack would do less dps than the attack which procs it.

 

2) Lower the health return from Force Leech/Serenity to 15% Base/30% with Focused Insight but up the damage considerably

Agreed, this would be a nice boost to single target damage without affecting AoE dps. A boost to this and the effect of wrath (global since CD/MC don't spread) would go a long way to helping.

 

3) Return the 30% crit bonus to FiB/Death Field and the DoTs. If 30% is too much adjust downward as needed.

 

And if DoT spread that no one asked for has to be removed or nerfed, so be it.

 

Adding that much of a surge boost would make AoE dps excessive (at present). Personally I like dot spread. I think it's an interesting thing to consider when fighting and allows for some utility in fights where you can take down adds but still keep dps on boss. It also makes AoE more than quake/storm and FIB/DF.

 

I think that a couple of small changes could go a long way to helping madness/balance come back to a reasonable spec, but at the moment it's just not worth the hassle. Cooldowns might also need to be adjusted to make the rotation work a little better, especially with the alacrity changes in 3.x.

[Vanarion]

To be honest, I don't understand why there's the need to add a new skill every time when there is a new level cap.

Especially when it fits so badly into the specc. 18, 15 and 12 sec cooldown. At best that means a sequence will repeat after what ... 120 seconds? If you play like a machine that means.

Next time just another skill to shift through the classes rotations?

Just to add to the quantity? Complexity in numbers? Will we end up using tools that tell us wich button to press next?

Really I wish SWTOR would not go this road...

Edited January 3, 2015 by Vanarion

[JDotter]

There is additional damage though. Benefits from 10% passive dot damage from discipline too, probably execute talent as well. Basically it's a dot. I actually thought it's been that way since 2.0.

 

Sage equivalent, Rippling Force, doesn't get any of that.

 

My testing was rather limited I saw no increase in non DM Lighting Burns and DM Lighting Burns.

 

Very possible this occurred prior to 3.0 I just noticed it now

[myragoeshappy]

Found a bug today

 

 

Lighting Burns eating Deathmark ticks (no additional damage)

 

I just tested that on a 500k Dummy without the Training Dummy Armor Reduction Module and the Relics

 

Lightning Burns without Deathmark

-> 436 average non crit dmg - 715 aberage crit dmg

 

Lightning Burns with Deathmark

-> 470 average non crit dmg - 787 average crit dmg

 

436 Dmg : 100% * 10% = 43.6 Dmg -> 436 Dmg + 43.6 Dmg = 479.6 Dmg

715 Dmg : 100% * 10% = 71.5 Dmg -> 715 Dmg + 71.5 Dmg = 786.5 Dmg

 

Deathmark let your periodic damaging abilities do 10% extra Dmg. Lightning Burns does actually more Dmg while eating Deathmark ticks

[Koarria]

balance / madness is pretty much the lowest dps spec right now and there is no way this spec can break 4K with 186 gears like other classes make it right now.

Ehm, you mean they should nerf Madness Sorcs hard, because they have highest rating in PVP. THESE ARE FACTS!

[verfallen]

To be honest, I don't understand why there's the need to add a new skill every time when there is a new level cap.

Especially when it fits so badly into the specc. 18, 15 and 12 sec cooldown. At best that means a sequence will repeat after what ... 120 seconds? If you play like a machine that means.

Next time just another skill to shift through the classes rotations?

Just to add to the quantity? Complexity in numbers? Will we end up using tools that tell us wich button to press next?

Really I wish SWTOR would not go this road...

 

many specs were changed with unmatching cooldowns, in my opinion its not that bad a thing.

 

It makes "3 button rotations" a thing of the past, you and shift more toward a priority list.

 

 

As for Force Leech cast and force mobility, most of Madness damage can be done on the move already. Force Mobility add another ability to the mix. Lightning got more mobile, but obviously the extra mobility is most welcomed, and that it is on TB is logical since they don't want your "spam" attack to be mobile, so FL and LS/LB are out of the questions.

 

Now if Madness lacks a bit of a punch, I also think aiming for the previous DPS % values on FL might be a good solution, to crank it up a bit or lessen a bit the penalty upon getting barrage. I didn't do much Madness since 3,0, always been a mainly lightning player (even when madness had better mobility and a crapload more dps) but a otherwise a mechanic allowing FL to tick harder single target on the last target affected by your Demolish (Demolish could place a lingering effect for a total duration of 15 sec on its target that ticks when FL does damage, a bit like Lethality/Virulence currently work) could potentially be an intelligent solution. That would avoid an overall to powerful FL, and that extra damage could also be triggered by LS if needed. Doesn't need to be too high, just a small adjustment to raise a bit dps.

 

I however don't believe madness should wipe lightning damage out of the map. Madness is already a solid pvp spec, its very mobile, VERY VERY VERY sturdy with the self heal (I do expect those to be nerfed tough. I mean Annihilation marauder was batnerfed at 2% health per crit bleed because it was OP) and I do think Lightning should do at least the same sustained dps, otherwise I fail to see why people again would play the spec.

 

High end ops group will choose the class that is less healing intensive (taking a bit of pressure off healers in some fight go a long way to helping soft enrage phases go smoothly) and has the highest sustained, over a class that "burst higher at start". The mobility as of current version are roughly on par, altough lightning will be punished after more than 10 sec or so on the move, the spec got nice tools to prevent the total halving of dps we were seeing in the 2,0 versions, while madness by its dot nature is more mobile baseline.

 

I do believe for balance sake tough, the sorc that choose the utility Force Mobility SHOULD be more mobile than the one that doesn't even if by a small edge, regardless of spec.

[JDotter]

I just tested that on a 500k Dummy without the Training Dummy Armor Reduction Module and the Relics

 

Lightning Burns without Deathmark

-> 436 average non crit dmg - 715 aberage crit dmg

 

Lightning Burns with Deathmark

-> 470 average non crit dmg - 787 average crit dmg

 

436 Dmg : 100% * 10% = 43.6 Dmg -> 436 Dmg + 43.6 Dmg = 479.6 Dmg

715 Dmg : 100% * 10% = 71.5 Dmg -> 715 Dmg + 71.5 Dmg = 786.5 Dmg

 

Deathmark let your periodic damaging abilities do 10% extra Dmg. Lightning Burns does actually more Dmg while eating Deathmark ticks

 

Still a overall DPS loss for affliction/creeping terror not to eat the ticks. Now if this was occurring prior to 3.0 is the question

[myragoeshappy]

Still a overall DPS loss for affliction/creeping terror not to eat the ticks. Now if this was occurring prior to 3.0 is the question

 

ofc its a overall dmg loss but it let your lightning burns hit harder

[Galothor]

Agreed. Personally I'd leave Leech as the static cast and add force mobility to force lightning, although this would then mean that healers and lightning sorts could also do it on the move (I'm sure you could code that out though).

 

While I would love to see Force Lighting, better yet all abilities, being castable on the move to make the fights more dynamic, it would currently create unbalance in PvP as the other classes are not equipped with the right tools to handle / compete with it.

[MusicRider]

Balance single target dps is pretty pathetic. But pestilence doesn't leave much room for change, other than buffing wrath proc damage, force leach and lightning burns. But even with these changes the spec has already lost its feeling as its dots are weak. From a fun to play spec is now is dead boring one, and it is no longer a matter of skill even between sorcs, but a matter of positioning your cursor.

 

The leech (which should be instant and yes no problem with force mobility not applying to madness) and the healing changes were welcome changes, but the never asked pestilence route has to be reverted; something that will not happen and which means the spec is doomed from now on.

 

The only way to "revert" pestilence I would suggest is to spread something but not dots, make it a 5% accuracy reduction, or armor, or whatever and revert the dots back to 2.10 scaled accordingly.

Edited January 3, 2015 by MusicRider

[trabble]

i quit my sub today - tk/lightning is no alternative for me.

[ThatEvilDude]

Ehm, you mean they should nerf Madness Sorcs hard, because they have highest rating in PVP. THESE ARE FACTS!

 

It may help you to learn to read.

 

In this thread we have talked significantly about the removal of DoT spreading, and lowering the self healing on Force Leech/Force Serenity.

 

Instead of reading the thread and realizing that in PvE (which is what this thread is primarily talking about) that Sages/Sorcs are vastly underpowered, you decided to just Q_Q some more about PvP.

 

 

To the rest of you, my apologies for that.

 

As far as Pestilance removal, I think thats perfectly fine. This class was never an AoE spec, in the past it always played as a single target sustained spec. For AoE we always played Lightning/Telekinetic.

 

As far as the mobile Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning, I think people would think that would be overpowered, especially in PvP due to the fact that the ability is the primary ability where we have to stand still for. I think adding Force Mobility to Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning would indeed be too much.

 

However, since as a balance sage/madness sorc I don't use force mobility anyways, I would like to see Force Leech/Force Serenity become instant, maybe off wrath/presence of mind procs. In exchange for this, I would like to see the heals from this be reduced to 15% --> 30% as mentioned earlier. An increase in cooldown from 12s to 15s would also be an acceptable change which would offset this well (and remove some clunkyness from the rotation).

 

As far as the DoTs go, I would love to see the 30% surge rating added back in, in exchange by making the the DoTs heal only when Crit. This would remove some of the "Invincibility" perception from the PvP community and also give us some much needed DPS back.

 

Nala- you mentioned reducing the penalty for the 33% channel increase on TT/FL by 25% to 10-15%. I don't think that would help us much due to the fact that our rotation is already broken due to the fact that Tele Throw & Force Lightning do more damage than Lightning Strike & Disturbance. Instead of reducing the penalty (even though I would like to see it reduced), I think it would be more effective to increase the damage of Disturbance/Lightning Strike (or Presence of Mind/Wrath procs) by 20%. This way our rotation would feel closer to 2.10, where it had a beautiful sweet spot. It would also allow for us to actually use our 6pc set bonus which relies on us using Disturbance/Lightning Strike.

Edited January 3, 2015 by ThatEvilDude
I didn't finish my comments.

[Galothor]

However, since as a balance sage/madness sorc I don't use force mobility anyways, I would like to see Force Leech/Force Serenity become instant, maybe off wrath/presence of mind procs. In exchange for this, I would like to see the heals from this be reduced to 15% --> 30% as mentioned earlier. An increase in cooldown from 12s to 15s would also be an acceptable change which would offset this well (and remove some clunkyness from the rotation).

 

With the amount of damage and especially burst out there, we really need that heal. Reducing it to 15% or 30% would severely reduce our survivability. Look at the sins, they already got it instant. I know sins are op, but not because they got a higher hitting Leeching Strike as an instant, but because ot the amount of cc immunity and cleanses combined with DoT spread, higher DoT damage, and relatively high burst.

 

Sorcs on the other hand got less cc immunity, no cleanse (other than 3m barrier), we got lower DoT damage, it is harder for us to get Wrath procs up, and we got considerably lower burst. So I think it should not be game breaking if Force Leech becomes an instant ability.

 

As far as the DoTs go, I would love to see the 30% surge rating added back in, in exchange by making the the DoTs heal only when Crit. This would remove some of the "Invincibility" perception from the PvP community and also give us some much needed DPS back.

 

Here again, this would be too big of a nerf to our self heal! I think they should limit the self heal only to dots applied directly (if they do not get rid off the dot spread), and adjust the value healed accordingly to ensure that we got enough survivability, without becoming invincible.

[Master-Nala]

Ehm, you mean they should nerf Madness Sorcs hard, because they have highest rating in PVP. THESE ARE FACTS!

 

I'm not sure you know what facts are.

[ThatEvilDude]

Sorcs on the other hand got less cc immunity, no cleanse (other than 3m barrier), we got lower DoT damage, it is harder for us to get Wrath procs up, and we got considerably lower burst. So I think it should not be game breaking if Force Leech becomes an instant ability.

 

Here again, this would be too big of a nerf to our self heal! I think they should limit the self heal only to dots applied directly (if they do not get rid off the dot spread), and adjust the value healed accordingly to ensure that we got enough survivability, without becoming invincible.

 

I like the instant Force Leech/Serenity idea. But before 3.0 we were still in a decent place because when we picked up egress we were highly mobile (yet squishy) and had solid sustained dps. I think removing the heal on every DoT tick and reducing the healing from Force Leech wouldn't be horrible due to the fact that we also picked up Enduring Bastion (don't know imperial name sorry) in the Utilities tree that causes Force Armor/Static Barrier and Force Barrier to heal us.

 

Now granted, if they nerf that utility as many are predicting because of the current power that lies within the Telekinetics/Lightning tree then suddenly the healing reductions I mentioned above would not be an acceptable change, because then we would lose nearly ALL healing ability we have come to rely on now, especially since our mobility has been cruelly stolen from us in 3.0

 

Also to your considerably lower burst comment I completely agree. Bioware claimed they were adding Force Leech/Serenity to give us some burst, but I've noticed it isn't really any better and still relies heavily on the Proc of Wrath/Presence of Mind, which is personally disappointing. BIOWARE TAKE NOTE: BURST COMES FROM INSTANT ABILITY PROCS NOT 1.5s casts that ONLY HIT FOR HALF OF A HIGH IMPACT BOLT.