Balance/Madness issue and Bioware said the goal is to balance all classes?

[ThatEvilDude]

The reason you don't want only 3 classes is because each class has it's own raid wide buff it can use. Using only 3 classes would limit you to just those 3 buffs. When you're comparing classes instead of specs the differences are less nuanced than specs. With classes entire skills,passive and mechanics are widely different. With specs it's small differences that typically don't make that great of a difference. You're not comparing apples to apples when you compare classes to specs.

 

I actually wasn't talking about you. You just happen to not have played since 3.0. The reason I mention 3.0 is because it's a relevant patch since that's when the changes we're talking about hit. The difference between 2.? and 3.0 and very different and someone(not necessarily you) who hasn't played before is at a disadvantage when they compare. Specifically about you, I have an issue with theorycrafting instead of actual experience. There's only so much reading and watching will do and I wouldn't consider your knowledge on theorycrafting to be on par with someone who has played pve before 3.0 (Specifically in this instance me, but in general any "decent" player").

 

I'll have to take you at your word when it comes to pvp, but in PvE I can't see any competitive reason in the situations I've talked about(HM/NM operations and the new operations) why a sorc DPS would choose to go Madness instead of Lightning and the points you made earlier I've more or less refuted from a PvE perspective.

 

The root you get with Madness doesn't affect bosses. It's a useless trait. The only non-instant skills Lightning uses is

Thundering Blast , CD and I think 1 more skill that can proc to be instant. For Madness Force Lightning, Demolish(can be instant) and Force Leech.

 

As far as raids are concerned there's no niche need for Madness. It doesn't fulfill anything as a DPS that's specifically needed for it. Which again, is the issue at hand. Raids want the most DPS they can get(because a good team has tanks and healers who keep DPS alive so that they can DPS) and Madness isn't the best DPS spec a Sorc has.

 

Sorry I've been playing TERA for the past 4 days lol. Level cap there is 65. Just now realized that lol.

 

Ok I will explain how Balance/Madness plays in PvP. Frankly? It plays like a Tank (without the Taunts or Guards). In PvP believe it or not, Balance is probably in the top 5 specs for durability (including tanks). The damage numbers are flat out laughable, with DoT spreading being the way it is, and low sustained damage, and no appreciable burst you flat out cannot kill anything that has any decent heals coming its way. (Those 900k WZ numbers are deceptive, because that damage is pure fluff) So as a result, you tend to not focus on trying to burn through something that way (because really you are wasting your time) and instead focus on keeping Force Armor/Static Barrier and your HoT's up on yourself at all times. Then you DoT spread and allow those to additionally heal you over time. As a result, you are racking up ~1500 eHPS entirely in Self Healing. Combine this with the Heals from Force in Balance/Death Field & Force Serenity/Force Leech and you are essentially unkillable for several seconds. When they burn through the bubble, guess what, you have a bubble stun for that gives you even more time to heal yourself up. You also have force armor, which if you HoT yourself before hand, and use force Mend/Unnatural Preservation at the proper time, is essentially a full another health bar. I've survived 3v1 for a good 30-45 seconds, which is more than enough time for plenty of help to come and bail you out because they actually have killing power. The truth is, that the spec is really not a healer, not a tank, nor a DPS but some weird combination of those things that happens to be highly unkillable in PvP.

 

But... that's not the point of the class... and it shouldn't be. This is SUPPOSED to be a DPS spec, a SUSTAINED DPS spec. However, that isn't even the case. We are being out parsed in pure numbers by Telekinetics/Lightning. Telekinetics/Lightning has more burst than Balance/Madness allowing for the spec to actually kill things in PvP, and make an impact in Operations. Telekinetics/Lightning is more mobile than Balance/Madness in 3.0. Oh, it also has a set bonus that actually helps the spec out, AND 5m greater range than we do. It begs the question: Why the hell would anyone use Balance/Madness period? Well the answer, in PvP at least is because of that durability I talked about above. In PvE? Balance/Madness is absolutely useless and flat out should not be played by anyone if they are looking at competitive operations, because frankly it isn't worth the DPS loss from not playing Telekinetics/Lightning.

 

BTW: The comments above: Telekinetics/Lightning has 2 casts: 1 is Turbulence/Thundering blast which can be used on the move (1.5s cast & autocrits), the other is Mind Crush/Crushing Darkness (2s stationary cast, proc from using Telekinetic Gust (don't know imperial name sorry) down to 1.5s stationary cast).

 

Currently, although the self heals are kinda nice in PvP for Balance/Madness, I would trade them in a second for the ability to actually be able to kill anything, I would trade a way DoT spread in a SECOND to do some real damage, because AoE sustained damage useful for 1 thing and 1 thing only: 8v8 WZ's, which is frankly a really STUPID way to balance things.

 

*Rant Over*

Edited January 30, 2015 by ThatEvilDude

[TitusOfTides]

Ok I will explain how Balance/Madness plays in PvP. Frankly? It plays like a Tank (without the Taunts or Guards). In PvP believe it or not, Balance is probably in the top 5 specs for durability (including tanks). The damage numbers are flat out laughable, with DoT spreading being the way it is, and low sustained damage, and no appreciable burst you flat out cannot kill anything that has any decent heals coming its way. (Those 900k WZ numbers are deceptive, because that damage is pure fluff) So as a result, you tend to not focus on trying to burn through something that way (because really you are wasting your time) and instead focus on keeping Force Armor/Static Barrier and your HoT's up on yourself at all times. Then you DoT spread and allow those to additionally heal you over time. As a result, you are racking up ~1500 eHPS entirely in Self Healing. Combine this with the Heals from Force in Balance/Death Field & Force Serenity/Force Leech and you are essentially unkillable for several seconds. When they burn through the bubble, guess what, you have a bubble stun for that gives you even more time to heal yourself up. You also have force armor, which if you HoT yourself before hand, and use force Mend/Unnatural Preservation at the proper time, is essentially a full another health bar. I've survived 3v1 for a good 30-45 seconds, which is more than enough time for plenty of help to come and bail you out because they actually have killing power. The truth is, that the spec is really not a healer, not a tank, nor a DPS but some weird combination of those things that happens to be highly unkillable in PvP.

 

But... that's not the point of the class... and it shouldn't be. This is SUPPOSED to be a DPS spec, a SUSTAINED DPS spec. However, that isn't even the case. We are being out parsed in pure numbers by Telekinetics/Lightning. Telekinetics/Lightning has more burst than Balance/Madness allowing for the spec to actually kill things in PvP, and make an impact in Operations. Telekinetics/Lightning is more mobile than Balance/Madness in 3.0. Oh, it also has a set bonus that actually helps the spec out, AND 5m greater range than we do. It begs the question: Why the hell would anyone use Balance/Madness period? Well the answer, in PvP at least is because of that durability I talked about above. In PvE? Balance/Madness is absolutely useless and flat out should not be played by anyone if they are looking at competitive operations, because frankly it isn't worth the DPS loss from not playing Telekinetics/Lightning.

 

BTW: The comments above: Telekinetics/Lightning has 2 casts: 1 is Turbulence/Thundering blast which can be used on the move (1.5s cast & autocrits), the other is Mind Crush/Crushing Darkness (2s stationary cast, proc from using Telekinetic Gust (don't know imperial name sorry) down to 1.5s stationary cast).

 

Currently, although the self heals are kinda nice in PvP for Balance/Madness, I would trade them in a second for the ability to actually be able to kill anything, I would trade a way DoT spread in a SECOND to do some real damage, because AoE sustained damage useful for 1 thing and 1 thing only: 8v8 WZ's, which is frankly a really STUPID way to balance things.

 

*Rant Over*

 

The only thing I really disagree with would be the lack of burst. Aside from the dot damage (weaken mind active though) force serenity and project (with 50% utility) have allowed me to take out close to 1/2 of even juggernaut's health in ranked wzs, where it is safe to assume that we would be relatively equally geared. If you can get a crit, the damage is very comparable to turbulence. Other than that though, you're spot on. We self heal so much that it's safe to say it requires at least two people throwing constant DPS at you to mess up your day.

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Hichitsuki-hime]

The only thing I really disagree with would be the lack of burst. Aside from the dot damage (weaken mind active though) force serenity and project (with 50% utility) have allowed me to take out close to 1/2 of even juggernaut's health in ranked wzs, where it is safe to assume that we would be relatively equally geared. If you can get a crit, the damage is very comparable to turbulence. Other than that though, you're spot on. We self heal so much that it's safe to say it requires at least two people throwing constant DPS at you to mess up your day.

 

Once again, this would be purely PvP related. Since Project is not even in rotation for Balance PvE and of course the health of any operation boss in like waaaaaay more then that of any player in PvP.

[TitusOfTides]

Once again, this would be purely PvP related. Since Project is not even in rotation for Balance PvE and of course the health of any operation boss in like waaaaaay more then that of any player in PvP.

 

That's because the individual I quoted was referring to the spec in PvP at the end of his post.

 

On another note, Project/Shock should be in the rotation in my opinion. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: I really think the guides have this rotation incorrect.

Edited January 31, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[ThatEvilDude]

That's because the individual I quoted was referring to the spec in PvP at the end of his post.

 

On another note, Project/Shock should be in the rotation in my opinion. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: I really think the guides have this rotation incorrect.

 

Not for PvE. This spec is force starved enough as it is, and it really is a medium damage force dump In PvE the only thing I consider using it for is a finisher. It is in no way sustainable for PvE.

 

It definitely has its uses in PvP though. To get any substantial burst out of the spec, I typically get 4 stacks of Presence of Mind then go (with Weaken Mind active) Force Serenity>>Force in Balance>>Vanquish>>Project. This is completely unsustainable and horrible for a rotation but if burst is absolutely required then this is the way to go. The reason I use Vanquish instead of Disturbance is while the damage is slightly less, if I come up just short with burst due to a weak/lack of crit, then the DoT's I already have up and Vanquish DoT have a good chance to finish them.

 

However, comparing this burst to Telekinetic would be a bad idea. Telekinetics burst looks like this (with Weaken Mind up) Turbulence>>Telekinetic Wave>>Force Gust>>Project. All of which hit for a fair bit higher than the burst we have going here, but our burst is probably 75% of that rotation, which I guess is somewhat reasonable. The reasoning for the no appreciable burst earlier, is in comparison to many of the tech specs that can get 15-20k crits with decent follow up abilities, when the best any of these abilities can do is (at very best) 10k.

[TitusOfTides]

Not for PvE. This spec is force starved enough as it is, and it really is a medium damage force dump In PvE the only thing I consider using it for is a finisher. It is in no way sustainable for PvE.

 

It definitely has its uses in PvP though. To get any substantial burst out of the spec, I typically get 4 stacks of Presence of Mind then go (with Weaken Mind active) Force Serenity>>Force in Balance>>Vanquish>>Project. This is completely unsustainable and horrible for a rotation but if burst is absolutely required then this is the way to go. The reason I use Vanquish instead of Disturbance is while the damage is slightly less, if I come up just short with burst due to a weak/lack of crit, then the DoT's I already have up and Vanquish DoT have a good chance to finish them.

 

However, comparing this burst to Telekinetic would be a bad idea. Telekinetics burst looks like this (with Weaken Mind up) Turbulence>>Telekinetic Wave>>Force Gust>>Project. All of which hit for a fair bit higher than the burst we have going here, but our burst is probably 75% of that rotation, which I guess is somewhat reasonable. The reasoning for the no appreciable burst earlier, is in comparison to many of the tech specs that can get 15-20k crits with decent follow up abilities, when the best any of these abilities can do is (at very best) 10k.

 

I don't know how well this would actually work in PvE, but I've found for really extended WZs that with the Valiance utility decreases the health lost on Noble Sacrifice to a point where it can be gained back in 1 or 2 GCDs depending on what abilities you cast in that time (I know a couple turns spent healing is a couple turns not dealing damage, but with our dots and serenity we might be able to strike a compromise on the two) - not trying to argue that it is effective in PvE, but I was just wondering if anyone may have overlooked/underplayed this to be a viable means to maintain force.

 

Depending on the situation, my rotation looks similar at times - and I definitely agree on putting Disturbance on the back burner. Even with the damage boost on the PvP set from Disturbance, most of the time it's not large enough of a boost to accommodate the time you wasted casting it (proc or no).

 

I agree with you here, but 75% burst for the amount of health regen we gain could be seen as a pretty fair tradeoff (this would be in PvP again though) especially with the extra dot in the mix during the process.

[DarthKurt]

I have been playing Madness/Balance since pre-order.

 

I am very disappointed with how low the damage output is in both PVP and PVE. Definitely the lowest parsing spec in the game.

 

Disturbance/LS is a waste, it's better to spam TKT/FL.

 

In comparison the PT's are unstoppable and the Operative roll is ridiculously broken. There is NO WAY someone should be able to do a somersault over and over again and move faster than someone with Force Run. Ridiculous.

 

And while the sages are more survivable then they were before, there is still quite a ways to go before class balance is achieved and there are definitely some issues that need to be addressed.

Edited February 6, 2015 by DarthKurt

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I have been playing Madness/Balance since pre-order.

 

I am very disappointed with how low the damage output is in both PVP and PVE. Definitely the lowest parsing spec in the game.

 

Turbulence/LS is a waste, it's better to spam TKT/FL.

 

In comparison the PT's are unstoppable and the Operative roll is ridiculously broken. There is NO WAY someone should be able to do a somersault over and over again and move faster than someone with Force Run. Ridiculous.

 

And while the sages are more survivable then they were before, there is still quite a ways to go before class balance is achieved and there are definitely some issues that need to be addressed.

 

emmmmm i'll just point out that Turbulence is NOT a balance tree ability lol

[DarthKurt]

re: Turbulence

 

Right, sorry, meant Disturbance...

Edited February 6, 2015 by DarthKurt

[Zenocyde]

I was debating on posting a new thread to propose these changes, but maybe it's better discussed in here. I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that madness sorcs need help in PvE. not much, but it's undeniable.

 

here is what I would like to see changed about the spec:

Affliction and Creeping Terrors duration reduced to 15 seconds and have the damage buffed accordingly.

Increase Force Leech's cooldown to 15 seconds and have its damage increased accordingly.

Removed the reduced damage to Force Lightning in the Lightning Barrage passive.

Change the current 6 set to each completed cast of force lightning instead of lightning strike.

 

{Something(s) force cost should also be lowered by 10-20 (need to do the actual math on this one) so the rotation is force neutral or only slightly negative OR Fix the 4 set so it actually affects Force Lightning OR change the 4 set to lower the cost of Force Lightning to 8 force per tick. (currently with or without the 4 set, force lightning costs 9 force per tick)}

 

The changes would address the current clunkyness of the rotation, and buff the damage to compare it to that of Lightning spec.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Zenocyde

[WormAether]

I was debating on posting a new thread to propose these changes, but maybe it's better discussed in here. I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that madness sorcs need help in PvE. not much, but it's undeniable.

 

here is what I would like to see changed about the spec:

Affliction and Creeping Terrors duration reduced to 15 seconds and have the damage buffed accordingly.

Increase Force Leech's cooldown to 15 seconds and have its damage increased accordingly.

Removed the reduced damage to Force Lightning in the Lightning Barrage passive.

Change the current 6 set to each completed cast of force lightning instead of lightning strike.

 

{Something(s) force cost should also be lowered by 10-20 (need to do the actual math on this one) so the rotation is force neutral or only slightly negative OR Fix the 4 set so it actually affects Force Lightning OR change the 4 set to lower the cost of Force Lightning to 8 force per tick. (currently with or without the 4 set, force lightning costs 9 force per tick)}

 

The changes would address the current clunkyness of the rotation, and buff the damage to compare it to that of Lightning spec.

 

^ couldnt have been said better

Edited February 7, 2015 by WormAether

[OasisKid]

I was debating on posting a new thread to propose these changes, but maybe it's better discussed in here. I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that madness sorcs need help in PvE. not much, but it's undeniable.

 

here is what I would like to see changed about the spec:

Affliction and Creeping Terrors duration reduced to 15 seconds and have the damage buffed accordingly.

Increase Force Leech's cooldown to 15 seconds and have its damage increased accordingly.

Removed the reduced damage to Force Lightning in the Lightning Barrage passive.

Change the current 6 set to each completed cast of force lightning instead of lightning strike.

 

{Something(s) force cost should also be lowered by 10-20 (need to do the actual math on this one) so the rotation is force neutral or only slightly negative OR Fix the 4 set so it actually affects Force Lightning OR change the 4 set to lower the cost of Force Lightning to 8 force per tick. (currently with or without the 4 set, force lightning costs 9 force per tick)}

 

The changes would address the current clunkyness of the rotation, and buff the damage to compare it to that of Lightning spec.

 

Well that was thoughtful and took some time from a player that enjoys the spec or play style. After all was the purpose of 3.0 to "balance all classes" to be on par with each other? Sure perhaps a little less here or there but I do believe Madness needs to be buffed to put it closer to Lighting so I concur with Ryz

[Citruzz]

First of all, this specc needs to be debuged. TKT/FL is weak, but stronger than a buffed LS/DB, so a buff for TKT/FL and wrath would be fine.

[TitusOfTides]

I was debating on posting a new thread to propose these changes, but maybe it's better discussed in here. I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that madness sorcs need help in PvE. not much, but it's undeniable.

 

here is what I would like to see changed about the spec:

1) Affliction and Creeping Terrors duration reduced to 15 seconds and have the damage buffed accordingly.

2) Increase Force Leech's cooldown to 15 seconds and have its damage increased accordingly.

3) Removed the reduced damage to Force Lightning in the Lightning Barrage passive.

Change the current 6 set to each completed cast of force lightning instead of lightning strike.

 

4) {Something(s) force cost should also be lowered by 10-20 (need to do the actual math on this one) so the rotation is force neutral or only slightly negative OR Fix the 4 set so it actually affects Force Lightning OR change the 4 set to lower the cost of Force Lightning to 8 force per tick. (currently with or without the 4 set, force lightning costs 9 force per tick)}

 

The changes would address the current clunkyness of the rotation, and buff the damage to compare it to that of Lightning spec.

 

Numbering your points so I can better respond to them.

 

1) Alacrity gear solves this problem. The dots are shortened, and the damage becomes more per second.

 

2) You can solve the cooldown problem by self control. On the point of damage: if the damage was buffed even 10%, it would crit higher than Thundering Blast.

 

3) It speeds up your channeling, so it's an equal tradeoff. Especially when you consider it triggers our proc, it would be unfair to have higher damage and faster channeling - that would also allow a dot with a 2s activation timer to be cast instantly.

 

4) If you use consumption or noble sacrifice, this build has no need for additional force regeneration - especially with our channeled ability refilling our force in the time your regen is reduced by 100% (if you use that many stacks at once).

 

The guide's rotation is not optimal, in either PvE or PvP, and if damage were to be increased (even slightly) it would outperform Lightning in damage, survival, and healing. I really understand where you're coming from, but you have to understand that 3.0 drastically changed things - not for the worse, it is just different from how you used to play it. It's a well "Balanced" class, which some people (stuck in their old ways) might find to be "Madness."

 

I'm going to say this part again, because I cannot stress it enough: The game has changed. Things are different now. Adapt. Adapt. Adapt.

Edited February 7, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Zenocyde]

 

Numbering your points so I can better respond to them.

 

1) Alacrity gear solves this problem. The dots are shortened, and the damage becomes more per second.

 

2) Also, alacrity gear solves the cooldown problem. If the damage was buffed even 10%, it would crit higher than Thundering Blast.

 

3) It speeds up your channeling, so it's an equal tradeoff. Especially when you consider it triggers our proc, it would be unfair to have higher damage and faster channeling - that would also allow a dot with a 2s activation timer to be cast instantly.

 

4) If you use consumption or noble sacrifice, this build has no need for additional force regeneration - especially with our channeled ability refilling our force in the time your regen is reduced by 100% (if you use that many stacks at once).

 

The guide's rotation is not optimal, in either PvE or PvP, and if damage were to be increased (even slightly) it would outperform Lightning in damage, survival, and healing. I really understand where you're coming from, but you have to understand that 3.0 drastically changed things - not for the worse, it is just different from how you used to play it. It's a well "Balanced" class, which some people (stuck in their old ways) might find to be "Madness."

 

I'm going to say this part again, because I cannot stress it enough: The game has changed. Things are different now. Adapt. Adapt. Adapt.

 

 

1. Despite your argument madness still parses 200-400 dps less. alacrity surely does everything you say it does, but it doesn't strictly increase dps, it allows you to get more rotations per combat.

 

2. Thundering blast has a 9 second CD and automatically crits, if used correctly in this scenario, with a 15 second cooldown if force leech crits it should hit harder than TB. if the cooldown were to be increased the damage would have to be aswell. increasing the cooldown in this case would line it up perfectly with the flow of the rotation, removing clunkyness. but perhaps having the damage increased in this case may be an over-site, only testing would bare answers

 

3. i cannot deny that you are only kind of correct about about it being an even trade off, removing the 25% reduced damage would increase overall dps by 200-300, which was half of my goal of proposing these changes.

 

4. A dps shouldn't have to use consumption when targets are available. If you had taken the time to practice / observe the 'new' rotation i proposed, you would see that its force negative by about 30 force per rotation.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Zenocyde

[ThatEvilDude]

I was debating on posting a new thread to propose these changes, but maybe it's better discussed in here. I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that madness sorcs need help in PvE. not much, but it's undeniable.

 

here is what I would like to see changed about the spec:

Affliction and Creeping Terrors duration reduced to 15 seconds and have the damage buffed accordingly.

Increase Force Leech's cooldown to 15 seconds and have its damage increased accordingly.

Removed the reduced damage to Force Lightning in the Lightning Barrage passive.

Change the current 6 set to each completed cast of force lightning instead of lightning strike.

 

{Something(s) force cost should also be lowered by 10-20 (need to do the actual math on this one) so the rotation is force neutral or only slightly negative OR Fix the 4 set so it actually affects Force Lightning OR change the 4 set to lower the cost of Force Lightning to 8 force per tick. (currently with or without the 4 set, force lightning costs 9 force per tick)}

 

The changes would address the current clunkyness of the rotation, and buff the damage to compare it to that of Lightning spec.

 

I hate to say it, but it would still have a broken rotation. The reason is that Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning is doing more damage than Disturbance/Lightning Strike for the same amount of time, so we would still have a proc that is effectively useless. DoT's at 18s are just fine, they were that way in 2.10 and it still makes no difference to me if they stay that way. To me here is the solutions that need to be taken:

 

1. Increase the damage of a Presence of Mind/Wrath proc significantly (~25%). This gives us a reason to use Disturbance/Lightning Strike in our rotation, which for a long time has been Biowares intention.

2. Find some way to make Force Serenity/Force Leech instant, be it wrath/PoM proc idc. We are already standing around like crazy from channeling Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning, there is no valid reason to stand around for an additional 1.5s. (Yes I know Force Mobility exists, but there are way better Utilities to take in its place) If they have to remove some healing to do so, fine. (the 12s Cd is fine, you can make your rotation obscenely complicated or you can just use it every 15s and keep it simple)

3. Decrease Healing from DoT ticks, and re-insert 30% surge bonus to both DoT's and Force in Balance/Death Field

4. The 6 pc set bonus I agree with you on. It is absurd that our set bonus is tied to an ability we don't use because the damage numbers suck.

 

Also, referring to your later post. Balance/Madness has always been force negative, we're used to it at this point.

 

 

As far as what else they need to fix:

Forcequake animation. This has gone on too long without a fix.

Forcequake/Force Storm damage (this needs a nerf, if they nerf this, most of the community will get off our backs about how "OP" this class is and we can get some real buffs to single target damage which are desperately needed)

Sage Old 4 Pc set bonus-Seriously 2 months, no fix.

DoT ticks being erased by alacrity abilities/procs (yes I know there is a way around it, but we shouldn't have to work around it to avoid losing ticks from abilities that are supposed to tick a set number of times)

I could go on, but I'm getting pissed so I won't.

Edited February 7, 2015 by ThatEvilDude

[Zenocyde]

Also, referring to your later post. Balance/Madness has always been force negative, we're used to it at this point.

 

Force Storm damage (this needs a nerf, if they nerf this, most of the community will get off our backs about how "OP" this class is and we can get some real buffs to single target damage which are desperately needed)

 

yeah it has, but not as much as it would be with my proposed new rotation, something force wise would need to be changed / fixed.

 

force storm does need to be nerfed by a little bit, just to throw random numbers out, maybe by 1/4th

lightning doesn't need help with single target dps, at all.

[TitusOfTides]

 

 

 

1. Despite your argument madness still parses 200-400 dps less. alacrity surely does everything you say it does, but it doesn't strictly increase dps, it allows you to get more rotations per combat.

 

2. Thundering blast has a 9 second CD and automatically crits, if used correctly in this scenario, with a 15 second cooldown if force leech crits it should hit harder than TB. if the cooldown were to be increased the damage would have to be aswell. increasing the cooldown in this case would line it up perfectly with the flow of the rotation, removing clunkyness. but perhaps having the damage increased in this case may be an over-site, only testing would bare answers

 

3. i cannot deny that you are only kind of correct about about it being an even trade off, removing the 25% reduced damage would increase overall dps by 200-300, which was half of my goal of proposing these changes.

 

4. A dps shouldn't have to use consumption when targets are available. If you had taken the time to practice / observe the 'new' rotation i proposed, you would see that its force negative by about 20 force per rotation.

 

1. It does parse less. However, we gain a lot of benefits that the higher parsing spec does not. To increase our damage here would give us an unfair advantage.

 

2. On this one, I'm going to use a movie quote: "That's... just like... your opinion, man." It does decent burst damage, heals you for equal damage, and you don't have to use it when it come off of CD.

 

3. This does seem unnecessary, in my opinion. In truth, it allows you more damage. 25% less damage, but in 66% of the time. Boosting this would only cause imbalance.

 

4. Your rotation is flawed. You feel obligated to use Force Leech. Also, whether or not is should have to use consumption is also your opinion. Do you really think I am neglecting to read what you type? If I understand correctly, we should not have to spend force points to cast our abilities? That would be awesome, but it's not fair.

 

 

I hate to say it, but it would still have a broken rotation. The reason is that Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning is doing more damage than Disturbance/Lightning Strike for the same amount of time, so we would still have a proc that is effectively useless. DoT's at 18s are just fine, they were that way in 2.10 and it still makes no difference to me if they stay that way. To me here is the solutions that need to be taken:

 

1. Increase the damage of a Presence of Mind/Wrath proc significantly (~25%). This gives us a reason to use Disturbance/Lightning Strike in our rotation, which for a long time has been Biowares intention.

2. Find some way to make Force Serenity/Force Leech instant, be it wrath/PoM proc idc. We are already standing around like crazy from channeling Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning, there is no valid reason to stand around for an additional 1.5s. (Yes I know Force Mobility exists, but there are way better Utilities to take in its place) If they have to remove some healing to do so, fine. (the 12s Cd is fine, you can make your rotation obscenely complicated or you can just use it every 15s and keep it simple)

3. Decrease Healing from DoT ticks, and re-insert 30% surge bonus to both DoT's and Force in Balance/Death Field

4. The 6 pc set bonus I agree with you on. It is absurd that our set bonus is tied to an ability we don't use because the damage numbers suck.

 

Also, referring to your later post. Balance/Madness has always been force negative, we're used to it at this point.

 

 

As far as what else they need to fix:

Forcequake animation. This has gone on too long without a fix.

Forcequake/Force Storm damage (this needs a nerf, if they nerf this, most of the community will get off our backs about how "OP" this class is and we can get some real buffs to single target damage which are desperately needed)

Sage Old 4 Pc set bonus-Seriously 2 months, no fix.

DoT ticks being erased by alacrity abilities/procs (yes I know there is a way around it, but we shouldn't have to work around it to avoid losing ticks from abilities that are supposed to tick a set number of times)

I could go on, but I'm getting pissed so I won't.

 

1. I somewhat agree with this. That would give us more of a reason to use the ability, but on the other hand you have to compare Lightning Strike and Lightning Bolt. The damage increase is much less than 25%, it's actually closer to about 10% of an increase. If we did receive this boost, it would cause our spec to arguably have more burst. There are plenty of abilities that fall off the hotbar at a certain level. We don't see too many people asking for Thrash to get buffed, do we?

 

2. This spec is so mobile, it's crazy. If you have force mobility, that's only 2 abilities you will ever have to stand still for. if you take other utilities, you get arguable MORE mobility, too! This section appears to just be personal opinion on how you would PREFER it to be more sustained damage, rather than a balance between [good] damage and survival.

 

3. This one also seems like your opinion. If I understand this correctly, you would just prefer the spec to be different?

 

4. If you activate disturbance or lightning strike, you lose out on a very small amount of damage in that second - but you gain a 2% boost which could boost one of your good abilities a bit more. If someone would come back and say 2% isn't worth it, then it's not even worth saying that we lose out on it.

 

 

As far as what is "needed" to fix:

Animation, yes.

The damage is not that great compared to other abilities in other classes, and it has so many ways to negate the effects (jolt, knockback, or even move out of the way!) The class is far from OP, and people will always complain. You cannot make everybody happy.

Set piece bonus, sure.

This last piece, unfortunately I feel is off base. Saying that we shouldn't have to gear or play a certain way to achieve optimal effects is naive. You appear to be very knowledgeable, and I doubt that is the case in your circumstance.

 

 

I apologize, to both of you, if this comes across as rude or insensitive, because that is not my intention. It just seems you guys really seem to be overlooking a lot here.

Edited February 7, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[ThatEvilDude]

1. I somewhat agree with this. That would give us more of a reason to use the ability, but on the other hand you have to compare Lightning Strike and Lightning Bolt. The damage increase is much less than 25%, it's actually closer to about 10% of an increase. If we did receive this boost, it would cause our spec to arguably have more burst. There are plenty of abilities that fall off the hotbar at a certain level. We don't see too many people asking for Thrash to get buffed, do we?

 

2. This spec is so mobile, it's crazy. If you have force mobility, that's only 2 abilities you will ever have to stand still for. if you take other utilities, you get arguable MORE mobility, too! This section appears to just be personal opinion on how you would PREFER it to be more sustained damage, rather than a balance between [good] damage and survival.

 

3. This one also seems like your opinion. If I understand this correctly, you would just prefer the spec to be different?

 

4. If you activate disturbance or lightning strike, you lose out on a very small amount of damage in that second - but you gain a 2% boost which could boost one of your good abilities a bit more. If someone would come back and say 2% isn't worth it, then it's not even worth saying that we lose out on it.

 

 

As far as what is "needed" to fix:

Animation, yes.

The damage is not that great compared to other abilities in other classes, and it has so many ways to negate the effects (jolt, knockback, or even move out of the way!) The class is far from OP, and people will always complain. You cannot make everybody happy.

Set piece bonus, sure.

This last piece, unfortunately I feel is off base. Saying that we shouldn't have to gear or play a certain way to achieve optimal effects is naive. You appear to be very knowledgeable, and I doubt that is the case in your circumstance.

 

 

I apologize, to both of you, if this comes across as rude or insensitive, because that is not my intention. It just seems you guys really seem to be overlooking a lot here.

 

2. I think you misinterpreted me, sure it has high mobility. I'm just pointing out that in the current condition, a lot of that mobility cannot be put to good use because in order to achieve adequate parse numbers, Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning must be channeled heavily. You cannot move during this ability. This is what I was referring to. A large portion of our rotation currently revolves around this ability. I think that, personally if the damage of Disturbance/Lightning Strike were increased to the point of its use being viable again, that the time spent standing around for Force Serenity/Force Leech would become negligible and not required to be instant.

 

3. This is how it was in 2.10. It was part of what made the class a decent sustained DPS class. I suppose everything posted here is truly an opinion so here's mine: I believe in 3.0 that Bioware overboosted the Balance Sage/Madness Sorc's survivability and over-nerfed the DPS. This was my suggestion on how to rectify that, by nerfing the healing.

 

4. The set bonus change I feel would be an instance of "If there isn't really a valid reason to use disturbance/lightning strike" then there is very little use for the set bonus to be related to that and was merely offering a suggestion about how it could become useful. Most of these things are just the result of disturbance doing less damage than Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning. Yes the 2% damage buff makes it a slight DPS gain to actually use disturbance.

 

I wasn't referring that they change all of these, because frankly that's off base and would make the class OP, which frankly I don't want.

 

One other change that could be effective would be to move rippling force/lightning burns back to Disturbance/Lightning Strike. That would effectively eliminate the burst problem, and give a reason to use disturbance/lightning strike again. Just a thought.

 

However that being said, the line "you appear to be very knowledgeable and I doubt that is the case in your circumstance" I personally take offense to. You are posting your opinions same as I am posting mine. I could make similar statements about people on the forums. I choose not to.

[TitusOfTides]

2. I think you misinterpreted me, sure it has high mobility. I'm just pointing out that in the current condition, a lot of that mobility cannot be put to good use because in order to achieve adequate parse numbers, Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning must be channeled heavily. You cannot move during this ability. This is what I was referring to. A large portion of our rotation currently revolves around this ability. I think that, personally if the damage of Disturbance/Lightning Strike were increased to the point of its use being viable again, that the time spent standing around for Force Serenity/Force Leech would become negligible and not required to be instant.

 

3. This is how it was in 2.10. It was part of what made the class a decent sustained DPS class. I suppose everything posted here is truly an opinion so here's mine: I believe in 3.0 that Bioware overboosted the Balance Sage/Madness Sorc's survivability and over-nerfed the DPS. This was my suggestion on how to rectify that, by nerfing the healing.

 

4. The set bonus change I feel would be an instance of "If there isn't really a valid reason to use disturbance/lightning strike" then there is very little use for the set bonus to be related to that and was merely offering a suggestion about how it could become useful. Most of these things are just the result of disturbance doing less damage than Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning. Yes the 2% damage buff makes it a slight DPS gain to actually use disturbance.

 

I wasn't referring that they change all of these, because frankly that's off base and would make the class OP, which frankly I don't want.

 

One other change that could be effective would be to move rippling force/lightning burns back to Disturbance/Lightning Strike. That would effectively eliminate the burst problem, and give a reason to use disturbance/lightning strike again. Just a thought.

 

However that being said, the line "you appear to be very knowledgeable and I doubt that is the case in your circumstance" I personally take offense to. You are posting your opinions same as I am posting mine. I could make similar statements about people on the forums. I choose not to.

 

I'm going to respond to the last part of your reply first, because I feel it is necessary to do so before I continue.

 

I think you may have misunderstood my last comment, which may be my own fault as I more than likely used improper punctuation. I was commenting on how your last comment, regarding adjusting playstyle and gear to accommodate a build, was naive - and that I figured someone who was taking enough time to consider so many other aspects was not. I am sorry to offend you.

As far as opinion goes, I always acknowledge when I'm stating opinion openly - and while I stated several opinions, my numerical comparisons are indeed fact (damage on abilities, ways around Forcequake/Force Storm, etc).

 

On your other points, especially mobility - it is debatable. We do stand still for this ability we use quite often, but (at least in PvP) there are approximately 5 other abilities you can cast before having to stand still and channel. Compared to Lightning/TK (which is very mobile) one could effectively argue they are at the very least comparable in mobility. Incorporating Disturbance isn't necessary, in the same respect that many would say that (same example again) Thrash or Saber Strike are no longer necessary in the rotation. If you were to boost the damage on Disturbance by even 10%, it would then be more effective for us than the Lightning/TK improved ability Lightning Bolt or Telekinetic Burst - but I must do that adding lightning burns would overcome this issue, as it would be a random chance for the increase instead of a static (no pun intended) boost.

 

3. I get this, I really do. I just feel that, personally, because the spec performed a certain way prior to 3.0 does not necessarily mean that it should perform the same way now - but in a way this is a bit more than just opinion. There is no reason that dictates 'because it was "this" way before means that it should also be "this" way now.' It's the nature of change.

 

4. You have a really good point here. I could see adding telekinetic throw/lightning strike to the same set bonus effect. It would effectively allow you to gain the damage boost often enough, and it would (arguably) provide a TK/Lightning user casting TKT/FL the same effectiveness as a Balance/Madness user casting Disturbance/Lightning Strike.

 

I'm really glad to hear that you don't want to cause any sort of imbalance - especially since you do appear to take more than most into effect (most arguments are simply "Nerf this! Nerf that! etc - so I really do appreciate this). There is just so much of that going around on Sorc/Sages right now, I must admit it's hard not to get a little irritated when everyone is saying one spec is over powered, and the other is under powered. Personally, I feel they are in great spots. Compared to other classes, everything seems to be very balanced despite popular opinion.

[ThatEvilDude]

I'm going to respond to the last part of your reply first, because I feel it is necessary to do so before I continue.

 

I think you may have misunderstood my last comment, which may be my own fault as I more than likely used improper punctuation. I was commenting on how your last comment, regarding adjusting playstyle and gear to accommodate a build, was naive - and that I figured someone who was taking enough time to consider so many other aspects was not. I am sorry to offend you.

As far as opinion goes, I always acknowledge when I'm stating opinion openly - and while I stated several opinions, my numerical comparisons are indeed fact (damage on abilities, ways around Forcequake/Force Storm, etc).

 

On your other points, especially mobility - it is debatable. We do stand still for this ability we use quite often, but (at least in PvP) there are approximately 5 other abilities you can cast before having to stand still and channel. Compared to Lightning/TK (which is very mobile) one could effectively argue they are at the very least comparable in mobility. Incorporating Disturbance isn't necessary, in the same respect that many would say that (same example again) Thrash or Saber Strike are no longer necessary in the rotation. If you were to boost the damage on Disturbance by even 10%, it would then be more effective for us than the Lightning/TK improved ability Lightning Bolt or Telekinetic Burst - but I must do that adding lightning burns would overcome this issue, as it would be a random chance for the increase instead of a static (no pun intended) boost.

 

3. I get this, I really do. I just feel that, personally, because the spec performed a certain way prior to 3.0 does not necessarily mean that it should perform the same way now - but in a way this is a bit more than just opinion. There is no reason that dictates 'because it was "this" way before means that it should also be "this" way now.' It's the nature of change.

 

4. You have a really good point here. I could see adding telekinetic throw/lightning strike to the same set bonus effect. It would effectively allow you to gain the damage boost often enough, and it would (arguably) provide a TK/Lightning user casting TKT/FL the same effectiveness as a Balance/Madness user casting Disturbance/Lightning Strike.

 

I'm really glad to hear that you don't want to cause any sort of imbalance - especially since you do appear to take more than most into effect (most arguments are simply "Nerf this! Nerf that! etc - so I really do appreciate this). There is just so much of that going around on Sorc/Sages right now, I must admit it's hard not to get a little irritated when everyone is saying one spec is over powered, and the other is under powered. Personally, I feel they are in great spots. Compared to other classes, everything seems to be very balanced despite popular opinion.

 

2. The problem with the other abilities on the move is that 2 of them are DoT's, 1 of them spreads the DoT's and for the most part that fluff damage. In order to effectively burn a healer you need to use Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning.

 

3. Just because it was in 2.10 and not in 3.0 doesn't mean its a bad thing. I don't hate balance right now, I just feel we are overpowered durability wise and underpowered DPS wise, I think reverting it would be a good idea because it would effectively hit 2 birds with 1 stone, and it wouldn't be outlandish because it had been tested w/previous patches.

 

The only other thing I would suggest reverting would be to move Rippling Force/Lightning Burns back to Disturbance/Lightning Strike, because it effectively places a DoT on it. Part of the reason why it is more beneficial to avoid using Disturbance/LS is because you get rippling force/lightning burns from TkT/FL but not that ability. The 12s on Force Serenity/Force Leech makes it difficult for Rippling Force/Lightning burns to be proc'd when not from TkT or FL. Putting it on disturbance would do 2 things, give a minor DPS buff, and make an ability that has been in the rotation since the beginning of the class have a use again. It would also give a point to the set bonus.

 

4. Currently TkT/FL is not in the Telekinetics/Lightning Rotation so the set bonus would have to leave in the buff to Lightning Bolt/Telekinetic Burst in there, but for Balance/Madness, I think if they revert Disturbance's Rippling force proc, to leave it as is, but a TkT/FL buff wouldn't be uncalled for either way.

 

As far as the spec goes, the thing I've had the biggest issue w/ lately is how amazing the off heals are. I feel more like a tank in PvP due to the fact that I'm healing something like 1300eHPS which is absurd. The DoT's heal, FiB heals, Serenity heals, and then we have Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation w/if geared right will crit for 15-20k, and then we have HoT's (Rejuvinate/imp equiv and Force Armor/Static Barrier which if Life Ward utility is taken is even more healing). I think if they nerfed that, and Forcequake/Force Storm people would stop hating on the spec, as much as they do. I just hope they don't nerf w/ a sledge hammer as usual. It needs some retouching is all.

[darthjanus]

I just hope they don't nerf w/ a sledge hammer as usual. It needs some retouching is all.

 

I think that statement is crucial when looking at ways to buff Madness without ultimately sending Lightning to secondary status as it was in the previous tier. The developers only need to stay true to their stated goals for the specs: Lightning is the burst and burst AOE discipline and Madness is the sustained damage and sustained AOE discipline. Following these goals, any buffs to Madness must come in the form of increases to sustained damage, i.e. mainly dots. Buffs to Force Lightning, Force Leech, and other direct damage abilities would only increase Madness' burst capabilities bringing it in competition with Lightning.

 

Given dot spread with Death Field, perhaps the baseline damage of Affliction and Creeping Terror should not be greatly modified, but instead increase the damage applied by Demolish, given it takes time to build the associated Wrath procs and can only be directed at a single target. In fact, focusing on the importance of Wrath procs should be key to Madness, not the current situation of higher damage from ignoring Lightning Strike use with Wrath. I agree with ThatEvilDude that Lightning Burns should be returned to Lightning Strike, but it should be in the form of a slightly stronger or longer dot. Imagine one of these two scenarios: 1. Lightning Burns is a strong dot that lasts ~3 seconds, where the goal is to maintain its uptime with Lightning Strike Wrath procs (sustained damage that must be maintained) 2. Lightning Burns becomes longer dot which can be stacked over multiple Lightning Strike Wrath procs (sustained damage that must be ramped up)

 

My suggestions are far from perfect, but in my opinion this is the direction the developers should look towards buffing Madness, so that it's burst potential will not greatly increase and Lightning can still have its viability. Madness should have two key features: 1. It is a dot spec and dots should be the core of the its damage; damage buffs should focus there first 2. Wrath procs must be meaningful; it is a unique feature to this discipline that must be built up by an immobile channel, therefore it should be integral and not ignored for more Force Lightning.

 

 

 

 

A quick aside about survivability: I know many would like to see an increase in Madness' mobility for both PVP and the high movement fights in the current Operations, but I would suggest that the developers be very cautious in considering such a change. As with the aforementioned damage priorities, the survivability features of the two Sorcerer disciplines should be unique. Madness has significant passive and offheals currently and that should be the focus of its survivability, leaving greater mobility for the Lightning discipline. Maintaining these current distinctions should be a priority in the new discipline system: Lightning is burst (quick in and quick out) whereas Madness is sustained (a survivor).

[ThatEvilDude]

Thanks for your response. Your comments are spot on with what I think should be the case with the class.

 

As far as mobility is concerned, I think the spec is perfectly fine where it is mobility wise, provided they give us a reason to use our Wrath/Presence of Mind procs, which was the real cause of our mobility in previous 2.x patches. I don't think that having that would be overpowered, but right where it should be.

 

I do however think our heals need to be turned down just a touch, because right now my heals are competitive with some healers in arenas and neither I nor other specs want to see that happen.

[TitusOfTides]

These are all good points, and I personally also would prefer to see an increase in our damage and a decrease in our healing. However, if this is what the developers were going for, we just have to learn to deal with it.

[Djiini]

Pre-3.0, Madness/Balance were far superior to Lightning/Telekinetics.

 

Let L/T have their time. Jeez.