Emperor's Wrath vs Darth Nox, who is more powerful lore-wise?

[DarthAeonis]

As much as I've debated with you I agree with most of this. On the other hand I would argue the warriors skill with his blade is something that is unique to the Sith of this era too. The sorcerer proves beyond all other sorcerers of his era by mastering a technique that none of them have displayed proficiency in. The warrior's physical prowess and martial skill with the blade is much the same in this regard. Not as flashy sure but he's gone far as a swordsman and as a.. well, warrior. Most Sith usually branch out into sorcery by this point but the warrior hasn't. Not to mention the Warrior can now use blasts of pure dark side energy. There was another character who was shown to do the same..

 

Exar Kun and he required an amulet to do it. The warriors blasts are, of course, inferior but then again he doesn't have the amulet. Still the amulet was created by Exar Kun's knowledge in sorcery in order to pull off what he does with it. It's interesting the warrior can do that with perhaps sheer will as we haven't seen him practice sorcery on the side to develop such a technique. I agree with you though. Nox is certainly not weaker than the warrior but as my stance has been in the past I'd argue the warrior certainly isn't weaker than Nox either.

 

the way i see it is in terms of NATURAL power the SW is stronger. as many has stated he worked hard and trained hard to attain the power he has, even numerous DC member acknowledge his strength, both in the Baras fight and in the subsequent expansions. in terms of ranks = power it can go both ways. Both are clearly at (at the minimum) DC level power. and we arent talking powerbases cuz this is a 1v1 scenario. Now the inquisitor's main sorce of power is the force ghosts he bound to himself, whether u consider it fair or not isnt the point now but even he acknowledges the majority of his strength came from them during the cutscene of whether or not he released them. and speaking on that brings another point. u have to factor in whether or not the SI keeps the ghosts bound to him or not, since u have the option to release most of them. in this regard his power could fluctuate greatly. however as the SW this isnt a problem since he never relied on an outside source to begin with, so no matter what route u took his power is always constant.

 

as mentioned before both have fought quite impressive feats (my personal opinion is SW had more reputable opponents). And we have seen the warrior has also as some have mentioned increased his range of force techniques where as the SI hasnt really shown any apparent improvement in skill. in fact during the cutscene for the SoR expansion intro it was Ashara who foretold the SI of the looming threat yet he didnt sense it himself. But the SW had a vision of the events to come therefore IF his affinity to the force were weaker than the SI's (as some had theorized) then thats certainly not the case now.

 

i havent finished 3.0 with the inquistor yet so i cant comment on everything dialogue ppl referenced to him but for the warrior Vowrawn, Marr, and Revan either see him as an ally or acknowledge his strength, in fact while Marr does indeed trusts the SI, only to the SW does he ask what will he do in regards to the Emperor. thus implying it was only a task the HE could undertake (also why i suspect that in 4.0 it will be the SW fighting the emperor akin to how the JK did). so while many think SI may become Emperor due to his strength and skill in sorcery i believe the SW is at the least gonna become more suited as the future Emperor. whether u find that relevant or not is up to u but it is something to consider.

Edited December 9, 2014 by DarthAeonis

[DarthAeonis]

I also played them in quick succession and had the same impression. In fact I was disappointed in the Baras fight cause it lacked the epicness of the Thanaton fight.

 

tbh i felt that they had something different intended for the fight since idk how many noticed but that ending is the only ending (that ive seen atleast) where u dont talk to ur companions or acknowledge to others ur achievement afterwards. it felt very open ended.

Edited December 9, 2014 by DarthAeonis

[Highsis]

Not up to making replies that are measured in pages at the moment but too many people are a) only seeing things from a martial perspective (i.e. Wrath defeated X and X was y powerlevel so clearly Wrath greater than all) and b) thinking the ghosts and other ritual empowerment are a crutch. These things, especially when in combination are a very biased approach. And ultimately not that useful. The Wrath beat everyone down physically, you say? Great, that's what he's supposed to do. The inquisitor on the other hand isn't about "rawr rek jedi" but about acquiring and using powers more arcane and mystical (which he does very well). Furthermore I'll grant that the Wrath takes down some impressive foes. But in this time period, Jedi and Sith are legion and take each other down every day. No one messes with ghost though, much less binds multiple spirits and uses them to effectively make themselves unkillable and challenge a Sith far beyond his station (and win). The things sorcerers do cannot be done by 90% of Sith past or present. Most Sith sorcerers on the other hand can master martial skills (at the cost of sorcery). And 99% of Sith in the TOR timeline cannot do what Nox can re: the ghosts.

 

And if combat is all you care about, look at it another way- the Warrior constantly fights tougher and tougher opponents, bettering himself with each victory. The Inquisitor does none of that but his path to power still enables him to beat a Dark Council member with none of the "practice" the Wrath had.

 

For the record though, having replayed the SI and played SW in short succession, the curbstomp Nox gives Thanaton in the final battle is unmatched by any I've seen the Wrath do in cutscene or in gameplay. So don't write off Nox just because he isn't knocking off some great master every other story mission. His one moment of ******ery felt more powerful than all of the Wrath's combined. I won't use that to claim he's stronger. But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker.

 

The reason I look at the enemies either of those two defeated is because it is the only objective way of telling who is stronger, without personal favouritism taking precedence over objective comparison. In that regard, it is certain that Wrath is superior.

 

Your argument that Jedi and Sith are tearing each other apart and Inquisitor is not about "rawr rek jedi" to defend SI's relatively less impressive enemies is irrelevant because even if SI didn't have many chance to prove himself, he was proven weaker in the force against Sith Lord Pallegeus and a Sith ghost prior to force walking, Zash and Thanaton after bounding some ghosts, and only overcame Thanaton after bounding like 5 sith lords to him. Unless SI's power skyrocketed by multiple folds all of sudden between when he was crushed by Thanaton and after he bound more ghosts in Hoth, he is just above Thanaton. Your argument to downplay the caliber of enemies both faced only works if SI hadn't been defeated in the storyline, but he was defeated 4 times total, each time telling us his power at that point. SW, on the other hand, was never defeated, which gives us much more leeway in determining his power ceiling.

 

Taking DC's belittling of Thanaton on face value, Thanaton is not even as good as an average DC member. Darth Ekkage was a leader of the strongest assassins in Galaxy and was feared for her power; She was defeated by Noman Karr. Noman Karr was crushed by SW at the end of chapter 1. It's almost too obvious, at least in my eyes, that SW is superior even when ghosts are taken into consideration. Before Hoth, SI would have certainly lost to Noman Karr, and even after Hoth, we don't know if SI would be capable of defeating SW's chapter 1 boss from story perspectives. If Thanaton was replaced by some of other DC members(who are not looked down by other DC members) or characters definitely stronger than average DC members such as Noman Karr, Baras, Xerender, Voice of the emperor, Darth Ekkage, Wyellett, Draahg, SI might have been utterly crushed and you wouldn't have been as impressed as you were by his easy victory over Thanaton. If SI is not stronger than most DC members, than he can't hold a candle against the emperor's wrath.

 

Moving to the next point, you underline SI's unique power. I will give you that. His power is much more unique than mere combat prowess of SW. However, does that prove anything? Zash was able to perform essence transfer which is very unique talent and is probably not even possible to be performed by SW or other powerful Siths; that doesn't make Zash one of the strongest Sith lords. I don't know how SI's power being unique makes him any special in comparison strength. He was still defeated by Thanaton even after force walking ritual. No matter how special his power is, it is not an instant win power as shown in the storyline. Many other things you've mentioned in this thread: SI being a descendant of Kalling, a slave rising to power, having more hardships at Korriban has negligible or no impact at the point of comparing two Siths at epitome of sith hierarchy and power.

 

 

"And if combat is all you care about, look at it another way- the Warrior constantly fights tougher and tougher opponents, bettering himself with each victory. The Inquisitor does none of that but his path to power still enables him to beat a Dark Council member with none of the "practice" the Wrath had."

Uh, sure. So your point is that SW will eventually wear out? That doesn't even talk about the topic. This is really irrelevant in power comparison and favouritism is very strong in this argument. And yes, we are comparing who is stronger so combat is most important thing we should care about in this comparison.

 

"For the record though, having replayed the SI and played SW in short succession, the curbstomp Nox gives Thanaton in the final battle is unmatched by any I've seen the Wrath do in cutscene or in gameplay. So don't write off Nox just because he isn't knocking off some great master every other story mission. His one moment of ******ery felt more powerful than all of the Wrath's combined. I won't use that to claim he's stronger. But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker"

 

If you found SI crushing Thanaton who was considered as the lesser by DC members more impressive than SW defeating 3 Jedi masters, 2 legendary jedi masters, voice of the emperor, powerful DC member and leader of the best assassins in galaxy, pretender to the empire's control, etc I've listed several times in this thread, good for you, but it doesn't prove anything beyond your personal preference.

 

You said earlier: "these things, especially when in combination are a very biased approach. And ultimately not that useful." I would say this quote exactly applies to the approach you are taking. You sound as if you think SI is more powerful because you like him more than SW. Likewise, One could say he found Imperial Agent curbstomping Hunter unmatched by and more powerful than any he's seen with SI, and claim that Agent is stronger than SI. That is a testament to that person's love of Agent, but it's not a fact. "But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker" - the fact that you 'felt' him more powerful because he stomped a Darth looked down by other DC peers is no definite proof you claim it to be. It is a proof that SI is stronger than Thanaton or maybe writers wrote the scene well, and that is it. If SI is even to defeat Noman Karr, SW's chapter 1 boss, he needs to be stronger than Thanaton to match average DC member, stronger than average DC member to match powerful DC member such as Ekkage, stronger than Ekkage to match Noman Karr, and god knows how many more steps to even go as far as Wyellett or Voice of the emperor. Of course, these are mostly circumstantial proofs, but it's more than a personal preference or how you 'felt' in a cutscene. You can't claim SI too can take on 2 legendary jedi masters or 3 jedi master simultaneously as SW did just because you were impressed by him when he's never done that.

 

I believe all force using classes are stronger than non-force classes in story perspectives. From the accomplished feat, I believe Jedi Knight is stronger than Jedi consular. Likewise, from the accomplished feat and many other alluding evidences, I believe Sith Warrior is stronger than Sith Inquisitor.

 

I will throw this in though : Bioware is never going to tell us that our class is inferior to other classes lore-wise, so there won't be a clear answer.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Highsis

[CrutchCricket]

The reason I look at the enemies either of those two defeated is because it is the only objective way of telling who is stronger, without personal favouritism taking precedence over objective comparison. In that regard, it is certain that Wrath is superior.

False. The best way to compare them is to use objective observable facts (i.e. things you've seen them do) in combination with existing lore regarding their powers and potential. Not every relevant display of power is in one on one combat. The Sith Emperor hardly fights anyone. He subjugates, manipulates and outright mind controls but who has he fought? Revan, the Knight... pretty short list. Did we really need to see Palpatine fight Yoda, Mace Windu and those other Jedi to evaluate his power level? Darth Bane is acknowledged as the Sith'ari in the first book and who does he personally defeat? A few apprentices? Combat isn't everything, even to a more combat-oriented Sith.

 

Your argument that Jedi and Sith are tearing each other apart and Inquisitor is not about "rawr rek jedi" to defend SI's relatively less impressive enemies is irrelevant because even if SI didn't have many chance to prove himself, he was proven weaker in the force against Sith Lord Pallegeus and a Sith ghost prior to force walking, Zash and Thanaton after bounding some ghosts, and only overcame Thanaton after bounding like 5 sith lords to him. Unless SI's power skyrocketed by multiple folds all of sudden between when he was crushed by Thanaton and after he bound more ghosts in Hoth, he is only above Thanaton. Your argument to downplay the caliber of enemies both faced only works if SI hadn't been defeated in the storyline, but he was defeated 4 times total, each time telling us his power at that point. SW, on the other hand, was never defeated, which gives us much more leeway in determining his power ceiling.

How was he weaker than Palladius? Paladius tried to cut him off from the Force and failed, seeing as how you still use all your powers. You may call Gamplay and Story Segregation if you like but either way the alternatives don't favor your conclusion. Either Palladius succeeded in which case Kallig handed his *** to him without any Force whatsoever or he failed in which case Kallig still won by virtue of being stronger.

 

And being vulnerable to a ghost is no mark of shame. There's a reason it's clearly stated that no one, not even the strongest Dark Lords mess with Sith ghosts. A Sith ghost can mind screw even a Darth into thinking she's a mere apprentice. There's a reason Thanaton doesn't go beyond the entrance to Andru's tomb. You sorely misunderstand and underestimate the power of Sith spirits.

 

Kallig was also holding his own against Zash in a fight, don't know where you got the idea he was losing. He would've lost because he didn't know how to resist her essence transfer ritual (incidentally a case for my earlier arguments about requiring specific knowledge to combat sorcery.) But that's not losing because of power. The warrior certainly wouldn't have done much better. And unless Vette was willing to dive in front of him like Khem was he would've been hijacked.

 

He also never fought Thanaton until the end. At the end of Chapter 1 Thanaton does fry you in one shot but you're still an apprentice at that point. Unless you can claim the warrior could've taken a Darth/Dark Council member at the end of Chapter 1 this point is moot. Still the inquisitor survives dying through his mastery of a ritual only a handful of Sith have mastered. Ignoring this won't change facts. End of Chapter 2 you fight Thanaton's apprentice, not Thanaton himself and again win without issue. Chapter 3 you hand Thanaton's *** to him, he runs like a ***** you chase him, hand his *** to him again, punt him around like it ain't no thing and literally force him to kneel. You utterly break him. Tell me again how the SI loses at any point?

 

Taking DC's belittling of Thanaton on face value, Thanaton is not even as good as an average DC member. Darth Ekkage was a leader of the strongest assassins in Galaxy and was feared for her power; She was defeated by Noman Karr. Noman Karr was crushed by SW at the end of chapter 1. It's almost too obvious, at least in my eyes, that SW is superior even when ghosts are taken into consideration. Before Hoth, SI would have certainly lost to Noman Karr, and even after Hoth, we don't know if SI would be capable of defeating SW's chapter 1 boss from story perspectives. If Thanaton was replaced by some of other DC members(who are not looked down by other DC members) or characters definitely stronger than average DC members such as Noman Karr, Baras, Xerender, Voice of the emperor, Darth Ekkage, Wyellett, Draahg, SI might have been utterly crushed and you wouldn't have been as impressed as you were by his easy victory over Thanaton. If SI is not stronger than most DC members, than he can't hold a candle against the emperor's wrath.

What belittling? Only Ravage talks trash at the end and is immediately countered by Marr. I don't recall Baras getting any support from Marr and he's the big cheese on the Dark Council. Thanaton's displays of power have consistently been awesome while Baras QQs and can't break a simple SIS agent without the use of the Emperor's toys. What's Baras last words? "Defend the voice!" What's Thanaton's? "I will not be humiliated, I will not die. And when I've killed this upstart you will all answer for this." Thanaton>Baras.

 

Ekkage was weak enough to be captured and imprisoned. That's not what I call prime Sith material. Nomen Karr was weak enough to be goaded into falling by a mere apprentice. Maybe lorewise they were something once but not when you see them in game (a point that also applies to Baras, as he's implied to be a master strategist and one of the architects behind the sacking of Coruscant yet he's a chump in game).

 

Moving to the next point, you underline SI's unique power. I will give you that. His power is much more unique than mere combat prowess of SW. However, does that prove anything? Zash was able to perform essence transfer which is very unique talent and is probably not even possible to be performed by SW or other powerful Siths; that doesn't make Zash one of the strongest Sith lords. I don't know how SI's power being unique makes him any special in comparison strength. He was still defeated by Thanaton even after force walking ritual. No matter how special his power is, it is not an instant win power as shown in the storyline. Many other things you've mentioned in this thread: SI being a descendant of Kalling, a slave rising to power, having more hardships at Korriban has negligible or no impact at the point of comparing two Siths at epitome of sith hierarchy and power.

If Zash's version of essence transfer could not be resisted or could only be resisted with specialized knowledge then that would indeed give her power over just about every other Sith short of the Emperor as they wouldn't be able to do **** to save themselves. And even though I've said Kallig was holding his own in the fight Zash wasn't defeated by power, she was defeated by (a lack of) knowledge. If she had understood more about how the Dashade bond worked she would've eliminated Khem Val first and she would've won. With Nox it's even worse. The ghosts literally prevent him from dying and he has complete mastery over them. The only one guaranteed to stomp him is the Emperor.

 

And yes his background is important. The inquisitor (and Thanaton before him) rose up from slavery against great adversity from their betters and succeeded despite everything. Adversity, conflict, hatred, these make better Sith, not coddling and privilege. The Inquisitor knew the Sith code from day one, the Warrior couldn't even mumble the first line when already an apprentice. You could make a case that the Inquisitor is more worldly and posseses more cunning simply because he survived as a slave long enough to get discovered. The warrior on the other hand only implies privilege and things being handed to him. Finally while both classes just do what they're told by virtue of this being a game you can see the Inquisitor thinking things through and feel like you're taking some agency in your ascension. Wheras with the Wrath I've never felt he was anything other than a tool, someone's hatchet man. Nox rises as a Sith. He goes from slave to master. The Wrath just trades masters. I will agree they're equal in power level. But who's the better Sith overall is quite clear.

 

 

Uh, sure. So your point is that SW will eventually wear out? That doesn't even talk about the topic. This is really irrelevant in power comparison and favouritism is very strong in this argument. And yes, we are comparing who is stronger so combat is most important thing we should care about in this comparison.

No my point is the Warrior spent all his time beating down strangers on the say-so of someone else while the Inquisitor just gathered his power and curbstomped his rival without wading through legions of lesser fights. That says something to anyone who's not just comparing numbers.

 

If you found SI crushing Thanaton who was considered as the lesser by DC members more impressive than SW defeating 3 Jedi masters, 2 legendary jedi masters, voice of the emperor, powerful DC member and leader of the best assassins in galaxy, pretender to the empire's control, etc I've listed several times in this thread, good for you, but it doesn't prove anything beyond your personal preference.

 

I would say this quote exactly applies to the approach you are taking. You sound as if you think SI is more powerful because you like him more than SW. Likewise, One could say he found Imperial Agent curbstomping Hunter unmatched by and more powerful than any he's seen with SI, and claim that Agent is stronger than SI. That is a testament to that person's love of Agent, but it's not a fact. "But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker" - the fact that you 'felt' him more powerful because he stomped a Darth looked down by other DC peers is no definite proof you claim it to be. It is a proof that SI is stronger than Thanaton or maybe writers wrote the scene well, and that is it. If SI is even to defeat Noman Karr, SW's chapter 1 boss, he needs to be stronger than Thanaton to match average DC member, stronger than average DC member to match powerful DC member such as Ekkage, stronger than Ekkage to match Noman Karr, and god knows how many more steps to even go as far as Wyellett or Voice of the emperor. Of course, these are mostly circumstantial proofs, but it's more than a personal preference or how you 'felt' in a cutscene. You can't claim SI too can take on 2 legendary jedi masters or 3 jedi master simultaneously as SW did just because you were impressed by him when he's never done that.

 

I believe all force using classes are stronger than non-force classes in story perspectives. From the accomplished feat, I believe Jedi Knight is stronger than Jedi consular. Likewise, from the accomplished feat and many other alluding evidences, I believe Sith Warrior is stronger than Sith Inquisitor.

 

I will throw this in though : Bioware is never going to tell us that our class is inferior to other classes lore-wise, so there won't be a clear answer.

Oh I'm sure preference has been demonstrated. But not mine. I don't seek to limit discussion to only the point of view applicable to my favorite and then concluding the obvious. But you're just repeating yourself at this point and I see no reason to do the same. I've answered your points already. And I have seen that exact argument for the agent by the way. It's the reason I was initially hesitant to post in this thread.

[Highsis]

 

Oh I'm sure preference has been demonstrated. But not mine. I don't seek to limit discussion to only the point of view applicable to my favorite and then concluding the obvious. But you're just repeating yourself at this point and I see no reason to do the same. I've answered your points already. And I have seen that exact argument for the agent by the way. It's the reason I was initially hesitant to post in this thread.

 

 

I'm, admittedly, repeating myself in this thread because you've been dodging my points with over strained interpretations and fact distortions over and over.

 

For example, in the case of Darth Ekkage who was defeated by SW, you first claimed she is not that powerful because her demonstration of frying a sith lord was due to the sith lord being caught by surprised. When refuted with evidences(sith lord was prepared), you then changed your words and said the sith lord was not strong devoid of any proofs.

 

And this time you say Ekkage is weak because she was captured by Noman Karr when I was arguing how strong Noman Karr is by explaining his capture of Ekkage. Seriously? By your logic I will say Thanaton was weak to be destroyed by SI whom you are trying to hype. How does that sound? You simply disregarding my points in most cases without any proofs and using fallacies.

 

Another example: you also said how the voice of the emperor was a mere vassal and the enemy SW faced was a Sel-Makor's avatar. When again refuted by in-game quotes you didn't bother explaining yourself.

 

Yet another: You said Palleges failed to drain SI's power. Again, it's a lie. In the game, he says he could finish SI off with this, but "since you are so eager, let's settle this by lightsaber."

 

Tirelessly, another: Zash did win against SI and you dodge the point again by saying Zash was unprepared for she didn't see Khem coming.. how does that refute SI being defeated by Zash again?

 

 

 

I've given only four examples, but this goes on for most of the points I've made and that's why I'm repeating myself with different words since you refuse to admit any facts and keep dismissing facts by downplaying them or ignoring them.

 

You can't prove SI superior because factually he didn't defeat enemies of caliber SW faced, so you simply disregard SW's enemies' powers, emphasize how powerful 'ghosts' are(who were defeated by SI at which point clearly inferior to Palleges and Zash) by even going as far as saying a ghost is a more powerful enemy than Thanaton(you said Thanaton was not the most powerful enemy SI faced), and keep bringing up force walking lore which can't objectively compare but looks shiny in comparison to SW's humble combat prowess for it is uniqueness. You disregard the game story I've brought up saying it's not objective because it looks bad on SI.

 

The matter of fact is, my entire argument is based on what are shown in SW and SI's storylines. I never downplayed force walking. I saw that even with ghosts bound SI was crushed by Thanaton, and simply used that example to extrapolate SI's power after he bounds more ghost and defeats Thanaton, as opposed to you going "SI is better than SW because the force walking rocks." (I mentioned his defeat by Thanaton to explain how bound ghosts don't make one infinitely powerful, hence SI's bound ghosts cannot be a testimony to his superiority over SW despite its uniqueness, the point of which you again ignored and digressed into "SI was an apprentice at that point so his defeat is understanable." That was not the point.) I've been using facts, you've been distorting the main points and using fallacies against facts while greatly over-interpreting lore advantageous to SI. Had SI defeated 4 Jedi master simultaneously(since SW defeated 3), I would be the first one to say SI is clearly superior to SW because that's an alluded fact. In this case, you are the one playing favourite, heavily.

 

I don't bring up stuff like SI *looked* powerful and SW being a mere tool which are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand and which clearly displays your favouritism despite your claim to be objective.

 

"The warrior can barely mumble through it when he's already being chosen as Baras' apprentice. The inquisitor defeats and binds a Dashade, a creature specifically resistant to the Force and used to literally consuming much more accomplished Sith while the Warrior's greatest feat during the trials was probably killing Overseer Tremel who was a dead man anyway."

 

This is from your first post. You then went on describing how SW's enemies are cake walks. Ironically, what you call favouritism on my side was precisely the argument you first tried to use. Then when I've refuted how enemies SI faced were inferior, you changed your attitude all of sudden and you call yourself objective. You are changing your stance and argument to make SI win regardless. No wonder I sound like repeating myself to you since you are shifting your argument here and there; I'm at least consistent in my argument.

 

This is not an argument; what you are doing is obstinacy and rebuttal for the sake of rebuttal. At some point you claimed the emperor might have appointed Wrath weaker than Scourge in fear of betrayal which is completely ridiculous if you bothered to put a second of thoughts into it instead of making such non nonsensical rebuttal out of a conditioned reflex for the sake of rebuttal. Furthermore, you've made so many lies and fallacies throughout the thread as aforementioned and didn't explain those, that I doubt if your further argument carries any credibility at all. Prove how SI can defeat an enemy as powerful as voice of the emperor, and then I will instantly admit SI is at least equally powerful as SW because I am not playing favourite.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Highsis

[dcaleb]

I think something that bears mentioning for the Inquisitor is this, they literally didn't start training in the usage of the force until the very beginning of the game. The Knight, Consular, and Warrior have all been receiving training for years by the start of the game while the Inquisitor starts from scratch. This probably contributed a lot to the fact that they don't seem to be as awesome in chapter 1 as the others are. And even then, he had enough raw power to take out a Sith Lord despite having his powers drained by an artifact.

[Rhyltran]

 

 

Kallig was also holding his own against Zash in a fight, don't know where you got the idea he was losing. He would've lost because he didn't know how to resist her essence transfer ritual (incidentally a case for my earlier arguments about requiring specific knowledge to combat sorcery.) But that's not losing because of power. The warrior certainly wouldn't have done much better. And unless Vette was willing to dive in front of him like Khem was he would've been hijacked.

 

He also never fought Thanaton until the end. At the end of Chapter 1 Thanaton does fry you in one shot but you're still an apprentice at that point. Unless you can claim the warrior could've taken a Darth/Dark Council member at the end of Chapter 1 this point is moot. Still the inquisitor survives dying through his mastery of a ritual only a handful of Sith have mastered. Ignoring this won't change facts. End of Chapter 2 you fight Thanaton's apprentice, not Thanaton himself and again win without issue. Chapter 3 you hand Thanaton's *** to him, he runs like a ***** you chase him, hand his *** to him again, punt him around like it ain't no thing and literally force him to kneel. You utterly break him. Tell me again how the SI loses at any point?

 

 

What belittling? Only Ravage talks trash at the end and is immediately countered by Marr. I don't recall Baras getting any support from Marr and he's the big cheese on the Dark Council. Thanaton's displays of power have consistently been awesome while Baras QQs and can't break a simple SIS agent without the use of the Emperor's toys. What's Baras last words? "Defend the voice!" What's Thanaton's? "I will not be humiliated, I will not die. And when I've killed this upstart you will all answer for this."

 

 

I want to comment on several things.

 

First the italicized point. You can beat essence transfer without knowing Sith Sorcerery. A mind stronger than the person casting it can block it. This is stated in Dark Empire and the Bane novels. There's a reason Palpatine used hollowed out clones in order to use it because as Bane acknowledges there's inherent risk of using it on someone else. Zash was sure her mind was stronger than Nox. This is how essence transfer works. When Palpatine was put in a spot he decided to use it on a baby because it was risk free.

 

Next point. The warrior did defeat someone council level. Noman Karr. You can argue that Ekkage is "weak for losing to a mere apprentice." but others will point out that the warrior was STRONG for defeating someone who's council level AS a mere apprentice. This is something that makes the warrior look good and it's supported by the very beginning of his story when Tremmel outright states that the warrior feels like the next coming of Exar Kun. That he has more powerful than he's ever felt. Not only that but when the warrior defeats the monster on korriban it creates a massive ripple that even Baras felt.

 

So regardless by the end of chapter 1 the warrior DID defeat someone who's council level.

[dcaleb]

Wait, does the game say that Karr actually fought Darth Ekkage instead of ganking her when her guard was down around someone she thought a loyal minion?

[CrutchCricket]

For example, in the case of Darth Ekkage who was defeated by SW, you first claimed she is not that powerful because her demonstration of frying a sith lord was due to the sith lord being caught by surprised. When refuted with evidences(sith lord was prepared), you then changed your words and said the sith lord was not strong devoid of any proofs.

Wrong, I claimed one datapoint does not make a trend and that datapoint had an extenuating circumstance (element of surprise). What's this proof you claim he wasn't? Secondly if he was unable to even offer token resistance, even if surprised it does indicate he wasn't particularly strong. The two points aren't mutually exclusive.

 

And this time you say Ekkage is weak because she was captured by Noman Karr when I was arguing how strong Noman Karr is by explaining his capture of Ekkage. Seriously? By your logic I will say Thanaton was weak to be destroyed by SI whom you are trying to hype. How does that sound? You simply disregarding my points in most cases without any proofs and using fallacies.

Capture is a different animal than kill. Most times you'd have better chances trying to kill a Sith then capture them. The fact that she allowed herself to be captured is weakness on her part, regardless of who did it. And yes Thanaton was weak(er) than the SI hence why he lost. That's the way it goes. Something you also seem to conveniently overlook is that strong/weak isn't binary, absolute and unchanging. Sith grow stronger or weaker based on their circumstances, their actions etc. If you'd bothered to read my point in full you'd have realized that's what I was getting at. Ekkage may have been strong in her day. But she proved weak by allowing herself to be captured and it stands to reason she'd only be weaker after decades of imprisonment. Similarly Nomen Karr may have been the **** but given how quickly he falls to an apprentice (and how disgusted Jaesa is when she looks at him with her power) he was flawed from the start.

 

Another example: you also said how the voice of the emperor was a mere vassal and the enemy SW faced was a Sel-Makor's avatar. When again refuted by in-game quotes you didn't bother explaining yourself.

 

Yet another: You said Palleges failed to drain SI's power. Again, it's a lie. In the game, he says he could finish SI off with this, but "since you are so eager, let's settle this by lightsaber."

 

Tirelessly, another: Zash did win against SI and you dodge the point again by saying Zash was unprepared for she didn't see Khem coming.. how does that refute SI being defeated by Zash again?

When did I say the Voice was "a mere vassal"? I said the fight was purely at the whim of Sel-Makor posessing the Voice and since that is against the Emperor's wishes he would've likely been fighting against the control, thus weakening them both. Feel free to provide any in game quotes that say otherwise (pro tip: there aren't any).

 

No, I said either he failed to drain it, or draining it didn't matter as Kallig still won. "Finishing him off" refers to killing him. I assume you know that's a common euphemism.

 

As for Zash, play the game/watch the cutscene again. Kallig beat her down she said "you can't stop this ritual from happening" then she Force pushed him back and started the ritual. Without Khem he would've lost but he would've lost to the ritual not in combat. In combat he held his own. Hardly the same as losing.

 

I've given only four examples, but this goes on for most of the points I've made and that's why I'm repeating myself with different words since you refuse to admit any facts and keep dismissing facts by downplaying them or ignoring them.

Oh that's rich coming from the guy who refuses to discuss anything other than "my favorite defeated ALL the enemies".

 

You can't prove SI superior because factually he didn't defeat enemies of caliber SW faced, so you simply disregard SW's enemies' powers, emphasize how powerful 'ghosts' are(who were defeated by SI at which point clearly inferior to Palleges and Zash) by even going as far as saying a ghost is a more powerful enemy than Thanaton(you said Thanaton was not the most powerful enemy SI faced), and keep bringing up force walking lore which can't objectively compare but looks shiny in comparison to SW's humble combat prowess for it is uniqueness. You disregard the game story I've brought up saying it's not objective because it looks bad on SI.

lolwhat?

 

Are you literally just stringing the word "objective" with other random words and hoping that gives you cred?

 

Fact: Force walking is a rare Force ritual only a handful of Sith have ever mastered.

Fact: Binding a ghost with Force walking literally keeps you from dying.

Fact: No one apart from the Inquisitor has ever bound multiple ghosts and survived

 

Them's the facts. I'm sorry they don't fit into your simplistic "x beat y" model which fails even when applied to non player characters where we know the hierarchy:

 

Mace Windu faced Palpatine and beat him (until Anakin intervened)

Yoda faced Palpatine and lost.

 

By your logic.. Windu> Yoda? Get real.

 

The matter of fact is, my entire argument is based on what are shown in SW and SI's storylines. I never downplayed force walking. I saw that even with ghosts bound SI was crushed by Thanaton, and simply used that example to extrapolate SI's power after he bounds more ghost and defeats Thanaton, as opposed to you going "SI is better than SW because the force walking rocks." (I mentioned his defeat by Thanaton to explain how bound ghosts don't make one infinitely powerful, hence SI's bound ghosts cannot be a testimony to his superiority over SW despite its uniqueness, the point of which you again ignored and digressed into "SI was an apprentice at that point so his defeat is understanable." That was not the point.) I've been using facts, you've been distorting the main points and using fallacies against facts while greatly over-interpreting lore advantageous to SI. Had SI defeated 4 Jedi master simultaneously(since SW defeated 3), I would be the first one to say SI is clearly superior to SW because that's an alluded fact. In this case, you are the one playing favourite, heavily.

Have you "been using facts"? I don't know what facts you've been getting off what knock-off game you think you saw but apart from Chapter 1 Thanaton never "crushed" ****. He fried the inquisitor in Chapter 1 who didn't die because of the ghosts. He didn't so much as raise his hand in Chapter 2, that was the ghosts overloading Kallig and hilariously punting Thanaton across the room. He talked big and got his *** handed to him at Corellia and in the Dark Council Chamber. Look it up. Play it. Watch it. I don't care which but don't you accuse me of distorting facts when you can't even get them right.

 

"The warrior can barely mumble through it when he's already being chosen as Baras' apprentice. The inquisitor defeats and binds a Dashade, a creature specifically resistant to the Force and used to literally consuming much more accomplished Sith while the Warrior's greatest feat during the trials was probably killing Overseer Tremel who was a dead man anyway."

 

This is from your first post. You then went on describing how SW's enemies are cake walks.

Because they were, until Nomen Karr who I do admit is a worthy foe even if he's not the grand master you make him out to be. In both Sith stories there's the slave who must overcome greater odds because the system itself is against them and then there's the highborn who gets to walk through the trials and have everything handed to them on a silver platter. With the SI you play the former, with the SW the latter. Deny it all you want but it's the former that makes a better Sith.

 

Ironically, what you call favouritism on my side was precisely the argument you first tried to use. Then when I've refuted how enemies SI faced were inferior, you changed your attitude all of sudden and you call yourself objective. You are changing your stance and argument to make SI win regardless. No wonder I sound like repeating myself to you since you are shifting your argument here and there; I'm at least consistent in my argument.

 

This is not an argument; what you are doing is obstinacy and rebuttal for the sake of rebuttal. At some point you claimed the emperor might have appointed Wrath weaker than Scourge in fear of betrayal which is completely ridiculous if you bothered to put a second of thoughts into it instead of making such non nonsensical rebuttal out of a conditioned reflex for the sake of rebuttal. Furthermore, you've made so many lies and fallacies throughout the thread as aforementioned and didn't explain those, that I doubt if your further argument carries any credibility at all. Prove how SI can defeat an enemy as powerful as voice of the emperor, and then I will instantly admit SI is at least equally powerful as SW because I am not playing favourite.

lol keep telling yourself that. You've made more shall we say "mistakes" in these two post than I have in 10 pages. But I'm not going to dedicate an entire paragraph to ad hominems. I think we're done here. I've said what I needed to say.

[CrutchCricket]

I want to comment on several things.

 

First the italicized point. You can beat essence transfer without knowing Sith Sorcerery. A mind stronger than the person casting it can block it. This is stated in Dark Empire and the Bane novels. There's a reason Palpatine used hollowed out clones in order to use it because as Bane acknowledges there's inherent risk of using it on someone else. Zash was sure her mind was stronger than Nox. This is how essence transfer works. When Palpatine was put in a spot he decided to use it on a baby because it was risk free.

Zash's ritual was different than normal essence transfer. Normal essence transfer doesn't require Tulak Horde's artifacts, it doesn't leave the body of the user intact after use and it doesn't gradually take control without the victim realizing it. It also doesn't share. From what we see in game I think it's different from Andeddu's method. Possibly based more on the Emperor's experiments as his transfer doesn't destroy the body either and he can move more freely.

 

Next point. The warrior did defeat someone council level. Noman Karr. You can argue that Ekkage is "weak for losing to a mere apprentice." but others will point out that the warrior was STRONG for defeating someone who's council level AS a mere apprentice. This is something that makes the warrior look good and it's supported by the very beginning of his story when Tremmel outright states that the warrior feels like the next coming of Exar Kun. That he has more powerful than he's ever felt. Not only that but when the warrior defeats the monster on korriban it creates a massive ripple that even Baras felt.

 

So regardless by the end of chapter 1 the warrior DID defeat someone who's council level.

Ekkage was Chapter 3. He wasn't an apprentice then. As for Nomen Karr I've stated my reservations regarding his flaws. Granted being weak in character does not mean being weak in the Force. Alright, in the absence of any comparable data on Zash I can concede that at that specific point in time the Warrior displayed more power than the Inquisitor. Though I would argue the gap was closed again when the Inquisitor mastered the Force walking ritual. Even Ergast, its creator marveled at how quickly he mastered it.

[Rhyltran]

Zash's ritual was different than normal essence transfer. Normal essence transfer doesn't require Tulak Horde's artifacts, it doesn't leave the body of the user intact after use and it doesn't gradually take control without the victim realizing it. It also doesn't share. From what we see in game I think it's different from Andeddu's method. Possibly based more on the Emperor's experiments as his transfer doesn't destroy the body either and he can move more freely.

 

 

Ekkage was Chapter 3. He wasn't an apprentice then. As for Nomen Karr I've stated my reservations regarding his flaws. Granted being weak in character does not mean being weak in the Force. Alright, in the absence of any comparable data on Zash I can concede that at that specific point in time the Warrior displayed more power than the Inquisitor. Though I would argue the gap was closed again when the Inquisitor mastered the Force walking ritual. Even Ergast, its creator marveled at how quickly he mastered it.

 

There's no evidence that it's not the same essence transfer. Essence transfer is essence transfer. There might be other ways to do it but both require sith rituals. Both are described to be ritual spells. Essence transfer doesn't turn you to ashes. Bane was in the process of becoming ashes when he invoked it. He was being swallowed by the "Mist" that Zannah used. Again, I can provide the quote. In fact, it mentions his body is becoming mist but it doesn't matter because the ritual was working with the speed of thought. Ergo, he was operating faster than his body was being destroyed.

 

It can potentially share if it doesn't go right. Proof? It alluded that Zannah didn't completely overpower Bane and part of him lives on through her when she had the same "twitch" that Bane possessed. If she wasn't as strong but strong enough to maintain most control who knows what would have happened? It's obvious she adopted some of his mannerisms which is "Kind of close." Zash's wasn't going to share either if she used it on Nox. Note that Zash also isn't as powerful as Palpatine or Bane either.

 

Essence Transfer is Essence Transfer. Please note that Bane succeeded using it on Zannah. She was just too powerful for him. I think it operates the same as most force abilities. As in if your opponent is stronger than you they can overpower you with it but if you're stronger than them you can completely block it off. This makes sense because every single force power operates this way.

 

Zash might have needed preperation and setup time in order to pull it off but this is the same with most sith sorcerery. Powerful Sorcerers can use it without utilizing artifacts or rituals. Example. Exar Kun needed an amulet in order to emit blasts of pure force energy. The warrior can naturally fire them off without utilizing an amulet. There's been other characters in star wars lore who could do the same thing without an artifact. Just because Kun needed an artifact to use that specific power doesn't mean others do.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Rhyltran

[CrutchCricket]

There's no evidence that it's not the same essence transfer. Essence transfer is essence transfer. There might be other ways to do it but both require sith rituals. Both are described to be ritual spells. Essence transfer doesn't turn you to ashes. Bane was in the process of becoming ashes when he invoked it. He was being swallowed by the "Mist" that Zannah used. Again, I can provide the quote. In fact, it mentions his body is becoming mist but it doesn't matter because the ritual was working with the speed of thought. Ergo, he was operating faster than his body was being destroyed.

Not so. The ritual Zash prepared was much more elaborate than any other example of essence transfer we've seen. Again, none of them required Tulak Horde's artifacts. Bane didn't need to set the stage for it. He just did it when he had no other options. And the body is consumed by the transfer itself.

 

"The ritual is fraught with danger. Attempting it will cause the current vessel to be destroyed; your body will be consumed by the power of the dark side."- Darth Andeddu

 

In the book it describes Bane's body as vanishing in a burst of light and him having a moment of metaphyiscal freefall as his spirit was in between. Nothing of the sort happens to Zash. After the transfer happened Zannah became aware of him immediately and they fought for control with Zannah eventually winning. Khem Val took a while to feel Zash and even then he didn't know what it was at first.

 

It can potentially share if it doesn't go right. Proof? It alluded that Zannah didn't completely overpower Bane and part of him lives on through her when she had the same "twitch" that Bane possessed. If she wasn't as strong but strong enough to maintain most control who knows what would have happened? It's obvious she adopted some of his mannerisms which is "Kind of close." Zash's wasn't going to share either if she used it on Nox. Note that Zash also isn't as powerful as Palpatine or Bane either.

 

Essence Transfer is Essence Transfer. Please note that Bane succeeded using it on Zannah. She was just too powerful for him. I think it operates the same as most force abilities. As in if your opponent is stronger than you they can overpower you with it but if you're stronger than them you can completely block it off. This makes sense because every single force power operates this way.

Zannah was implied to get "a piece of Bane" likely meaning some traits and mannerisms like the inherited spasm. I don't think there's any way to interpret that as consciousness. I don't see it as the same thing as Zash/Khem Val at all. You may be right about resisting however. It's possible Khem's inate resistance to the Force is part of why they ended up the way they did. But given how Zash claimed the takeover was slow and insidious as opposed to a straight up mind invasion I still think it's possible the victim wouldn't catch it in time if they didn't know what to look for.

 

Zash might have needed preperation and setup time in order to pull it off but this is the same with most sith sorcerery. Powerful Sorcerers can use it without utilizing artifacts or rituals. Example. Exar Kun needed an amulet in order to emit blasts of pure force energy. The warrior can naturally fire them off without utilizing an amulet. There's been other characters in star wars lore who could do the same thing without an artifact. Just because Kun needed an artifact to use that specific power doesn't mean others do.

Wearing an artifact to empower yourself is different from the elaborate plans Zash put into place. She was insistent it had to happen in that particular tomb using four separate artifacts we never really see. I don't think that level of sophistication was just meant to empower her, I think it had a purpose into how the power would be channeled and used. None of what we see aligns with how essence transfer is usually done. I think it makes sense to assume a different ritual even if the end goal is similar. What Zash tries to do is more similar to the Emperor's way of transferring his essence than Andeddu's. And historically, Andeddu kept to himself on Prakith, a Deep Core world while Vitiate's Empire isolated itself in the Unknown Regions. It's less likely the same essence transfer ritual was found across all that time and space and more likely that the Emperor just made his own sightly different ritual and some Sith like Zash were able to work off that.

[BrianDavion]

I don't think there's any reason to assume Zash's power wasn't the same as essence transfer as used by bane and Palpatine. the reason she used a ritual was likely to maximize her choices.

 

Let's step back and examine Zash's plan as best I can figure out.

 

Zash clearly did NOT intend to simply steal your body and go back to being Zash per normal. Rather she wished to effectivly become you, why? hell if I know but it's pretty clear to me. hence why her first action is eliminating the darth above her so she can become a Darth, giving her the power to raise you up to a Lord just before the ritual.

this also explains why she perfered a nobody slave as an apprentice I reckon. no family or other complications to deal with.

So, she has a strong, willful apprentice.. that's gonna be difficult to over power, So she needs to stack the deck.

 

We KNOW artifacts can serve as augments to power, we also know Sith Pyramids are likewise designed to focus and maximize the power of sorucery within them. Zash wasn't doing the ritual because that was the only way to do it. she did it because she needed to stack the deck in her favor as much as humanly possiable

[Rhyltran]

I don't think there's any reason to assume Zash's power wasn't the same as essence transfer as used by bane and Palpatine. the reason she used a ritual was likely to maximize her choices.

 

Let's step back and examine Zash's plan as best I can figure out.

 

Zash clearly did NOT intend to simply steal your body and go back to being Zash per normal. Rather she wished to effectivly become you, why? hell if I know but it's pretty clear to me. hence why her first action is eliminating the darth above her so she can become a Darth, giving her the power to raise you up to a Lord just before the ritual.

this also explains why she perfered a nobody slave as an apprentice I reckon. no family or other complications to deal with.

So, she has a strong, willful apprentice.. that's gonna be difficult to over power, So she needs to stack the deck.

 

We KNOW artifacts can serve as augments to power, we also know Sith Pyramids are likewise designed to focus and maximize the power of sorucery within them. Zash wasn't doing the ritual because that was the only way to do it. she did it because she needed to stack the deck in her favor as much as humanly possiable

 

This. Crutch, you mention how Darth Andeddu even admitted that the body will disintegrate. You made a great point about that but it doesn't prove Zash's essence transfer is different. Perhaps that's what it looks like when it's done right. Essence transfer is Essence transfer. Palpatine himself has stated that rituals are used to achieve results that are beyond the user. Zash needed preparation, setup time, and Tulak Horde's rituals not because it's a different power but because she couldn't do it the normal way. It probably took time to "Take over" and it probably left the body in tact because it wasn't as good.

 

Let's look at the advantages of Bane's version. If the person knows they had it used on them and still retain their mind they can still hunt for a cure to get rid of the other consciousness. If the other body is left behind some people might realize something sinister might be going on. Doing it the correct way leaves no evidence as the attacker's body doesn't exist anymore and it takes place instantly allowing no room for someone to find a cure or retaliate.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't think there's any reason to assume Zash's power wasn't the same as essence transfer as used by bane and Palpatine. the reason she used a ritual was likely to maximize her choices.

The procedure used and the effects observed are completely different. Why is that not a reason to assume a different power?

 

Let's step back and examine Zash's plan as best I can figure out.

 

Zash clearly did NOT intend to simply steal your body and go back to being Zash per normal. Rather she wished to effectivly become you, why? hell if I know but it's pretty clear to me. hence why her first action is eliminating the darth above her so she can become a Darth, giving her the power to raise you up to a Lord just before the ritual.

this also explains why she perfered a nobody slave as an apprentice I reckon. no family or other complications to deal with.

So, she has a strong, willful apprentice.. that's gonna be difficult to over power, So she needs to stack the deck.

 

We KNOW artifacts can serve as augments to power, we also know Sith Pyramids are likewise designed to focus and maximize the power of sorucery within them. Zash wasn't doing the ritual because that was the only way to do it. she did it because she needed to stack the deck in her favor as much as humanly possiable

Zash was going to assume Kallig's identity (as in impersonate him, not metaphysically become him) because if she had revealed she transferred her essence Thanaton would've destroyed her on the spot. I don't think he, or the Dark Council for that matter would go along with a Sith that can do that. Also her reason for needing it in the first place would be seen as a weakness by other Sith so even Thanaton aside, threats to her would increase. Her plan may be questionable anyway as Thanaton wants you dead as well but it's possible she may have been able to appease him by "renouncing her master" and pretending to be totally subservient.

 

I agree with your list of her motivations for picking the inquisitor but I don't think she was that wary of him nor that he gave her much reason to be. I obviously haven't picked every single conversation option but Zash and Kallig seem to get along pretty well for Sith, until the betrayal. I don't think you have any options to defy her or even talk back to her. You're either agreeable, sardonic or bloodthirsty but none of it is aimed at her. Even without her ulterior motives you appear to be a model apprentice. So I don't think she felt she needed to "stack the deck" as much as you claim. I think the only wild card from her perspective was Khem Val and she did think of that, though her assumptions proved to be completely wrong.

 

This. Crutch, you mention how Darth Andeddu even admitted that the body will disintegrate. You made a great point about that but it doesn't prove Zash's essence transfer is different. Perhaps that's what it looks like when it's done right. Essence transfer is Essence transfer. Palpatine himself has stated that rituals are used to achieve results that are beyond the user. Zash needed preparation, setup time, and Tulak Horde's rituals not because it's a different power but because she couldn't do it the normal way. It probably took time to "Take over" and it probably left the body in tact because it wasn't as good.

How does it not? Andeddu's version: body disintegrates. Zash's (and maybe the Emperor's) version: body remains. That's a pretty big difference. And I don't think you can claim Zash "did it wrong" as she did inhabit a new body, just not the one she wanted. Besides, Andeddu was quite clear: "Attempting it will cause the current vessel to be destroyed". As such, I don't think you can half-*** his ritual. You either have the strength to invoke it or you don't. And once you do, you either can take over the target entity, be it inanimate object or person or you can't. Everything we see from Zash is different from what Andeddu, Bane and Palpatine describe.

 

Let's look at the advantages of Bane's version. If the person knows they had it used on them and still retain their mind they can still hunt for a cure to get rid of the other consciousness. If the other body is left behind some people might realize something sinister might be going on. Doing it the correct way leaves no evidence as the attacker's body doesn't exist anymore and it takes place instantly allowing no room for someone to find a cure or retaliate.

Why would anyone automatically assume essence transfer had gone down if the body remained? The body is simply lifeless there are plenty of Force powers that can leave it in that state. Furthermore if the victim and attacker fought beforehand, the body would have signs of the battle anyway. You know two Sith fought, you see one standing and one dead chances are you're not gonna bother with an autopsy. Not that it would matter as again there are Force powers that kill without physical trauma. If anything the absence of a body would be more unusual as Sith don't usually become one with the Force as Jedi do.

 

Andeddu's version is superior, no argument there. It has greater risk in that it's all or nothing but its activation appears instant and its success is absolute. Zash's version might have other more situational applications- for example if you cared to keep the host alive. Just like they can search for a way to permanently purge your consciousness, you can redo the ritual and since you haven't obliterated their consciousness they might return to normal once you depart. Or since I assume it's directly related to the Emperor's version we can look at the benefits he gets: a physical anchor such that if the target vessel fails he can return to his own body or as way of creating perfect infiltrators like the Children of the Emperor. And here is where I might accept the idea of the artifacts being used for empowerment- the Emperor can do all this because of the ritual on Nathema. A normal Sith might not have the power to use their essence this way. Using the artifacts may give them enough power to use the ritual to do a one-time transfer. But that the ritual is fundamentally different from Andeddu's is beyond doubt in my opinion.

[ReiKai]

I think people are missing something about the whole Zash thing. If we recall, the Heir of Kallig only ever actually handed Zash the first artifact from the Dark Temple. The Heir went about collecting the others, but never returned to Zash to deliver them. For all we know the rest were just fluff and, Zash herself said before that the one they found described a "peculiar ritual". That may have been Essence Transfer itself. The rest of Tulak Hord's artifacts may have been for different purposes altogether since we don't see Zash ever in possession of them, only that she'd been doing rituals in secret to protect herself from outside Force powers.

 

Thing is, we never see the Artifacts ever employed. Once Zash was beaten, she attempted the Essence Transfer and Khem interceded. Zash's body did remain, but that could be due to the ritual being incomplete and imperfect because of Khem's interference. It could also have to do with the method being used as Zash didn't make physical contact with the Heir to perform the ritual, unlike Bane who had to physically grasp Zannah to attempt the Essence Transfer.

 

We do see there are multiple methods for the same thing. Even Palpatine had to use others to call his spirit back to transfer his essence into a new clone body, though he is capable of attempting to transfer to others upon his death, it's just not guaranteed as, when attempting to transfer to the body of an Imperial Guardsman he formed a Force Bond with, Palpy was repelled and forced to wait until a new body was prepared for him.

 

Part of me hopes they'll someday explore what the other Artifacts were used for, preferably in an expansion upon the Inquisitor Class story into the esoteric and mysterious nature of the artifacts in question. Which would be nice. Which would be nice since the purpose of the rest was never actually revealed. Though maybe all they did was what most Sith Artifacts did; amp their power. Naga Sadow created his amulet for that very purpose and Exar Kun recovered it to bolster his powers as well.

 

Heck the artifact you take from Palladius was an amulet called the "Star of Tulak". So it may be something akin to Naga Sadow's amulet. On Taris, when passing by the wreckage of the Brentaal Star, Khem-Val comments that "Tulak Hord once pulled down a ship from the sky of this size." Which is a huge feat of telekinetic force power. If he did that on his own, that only makes it more impressive. But if the amulet, or any of his other artifacts, bolstered his power to such a level, then that artifact in the Heir of Kallig's possession could enhance her to even greater levels.

[Rhyltran]

The procedure used and the effects observed are completely different. Why is that not a reason to assume a different power?

 

 

Zash was going to assume Kallig's identity (as in impersonate him, not metaphysically become him) because if she had revealed she transferred her essence Thanaton would've destroyed her on the spot. I don't think he, or the Dark Council for that matter would go along with a Sith that can do that. Also her reason for needing it in the first place would be seen as a weakness by other Sith so even Thanaton aside, threats to her would increase. Her plan may be questionable anyway as Thanaton wants you dead as well but it's possible she may have been able to appease him by "renouncing her master" and pretending to be totally subservient.

 

I agree with your list of her motivations for picking the inquisitor but I don't think she was that wary of him nor that he gave her much reason to be. I obviously haven't picked every single conversation option but Zash and Kallig seem to get along pretty well for Sith, until the betrayal. I don't think you have any options to defy her or even talk back to her. You're either agreeable, sardonic or bloodthirsty but none of it is aimed at her. Even without her ulterior motives you appear to be a model apprentice. So I don't think she felt she needed to "stack the deck" as much as you claim. I think the only wild card from her perspective was Khem Val and she did think of that, though her assumptions proved to be completely wrong.

 

 

How does it not? Andeddu's version: body disintegrates. Zash's (and maybe the Emperor's) version: body remains. That's a pretty big difference. And I don't think you can claim Zash "did it wrong" as she did inhabit a new body, just not the one she wanted. Besides, Andeddu was quite clear: "Attempting it will cause the current vessel to be destroyed". As such, I don't think you can half-*** his ritual. You either have the strength to invoke it or you don't. And once you do, you either can take over the target entity, be it inanimate object or person or you can't. Everything we see from Zash is different from what Andeddu, Bane and Palpatine describe.

 

 

Why would anyone automatically assume essence transfer had gone down if the body remained? The body is simply lifeless there are plenty of Force powers that can leave it in that state. Furthermore if the victim and attacker fought beforehand, the body would have signs of the battle anyway. You know two Sith fought, you see one standing and one dead chances are you're not gonna bother with an autopsy. Not that it would matter as again there are Force powers that kill without physical trauma. If anything the absence of a body would be more unusual as Sith don't usually become one with the Force as Jedi do.

 

Andeddu's version is superior, no argument there. It has greater risk in that it's all or nothing but its activation appears instant and its success is absolute. Zash's version might have other more situational applications- for example if you cared to keep the host alive. Just like they can search for a way to permanently purge your consciousness, you can redo the ritual and since you haven't obliterated their consciousness they might return to normal once you depart. Or since I assume it's directly related to the Emperor's version we can look at the benefits he gets: a physical anchor such that if the target vessel fails he can return to his own body or as way of creating perfect infiltrators like the Children of the Emperor. And here is where I might accept the idea of the artifacts being used for empowerment- the Emperor can do all this because of the ritual on Nathema. A normal Sith might not have the power to use their essence this way. Using the artifacts may give them enough power to use the ritual to do a one-time transfer. But that the ritual is fundamentally different from Andeddu's is beyond doubt in my opinion.

 

I would argue that the body remaining intact would be a huge flaw. Essence transfer well.. transfers your essence. One would think if you transferred your essence into another body there would be no residual force left in the body. A wise sith could pick up on this and realize the body is completely devoid of the force. That would be seen as peculiar or suspicious. That being said, there is Palpatine's quote and we also know using rituals usually does not result in the power manifesting in the exact same way.

 

It does seem to me she used an incomplete version of it. In the end, what she used was "Essence Transfer." just like there's electric judgement. It has manifested as Green and Orange. You can argue "No, they're different colors so they're obviously different." but they aren't. It's still Electric Judgement. If it was completely different from Andeddu's technique why even have it listed as the same name? Want an example?

 

Obi Wan Kenobi became one with the force and his body vanished. Qui Gon Jin did the same thing and his body did not vanish. Then he taught it to Yoda who taught it to Obi Wan. Does this mean they ended up using a completely different technique considering both Yoda and Obi Wan's body vanished?

 

There is inconsistencies on how force powers operate depending on the individual. So I will stand by my statement..

 

Essence Transfer is Essence Transfer.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Highsis]

A bit unrelated, personal comment:

 

I was almost neutral when I started this thread, but I made up my mind to support Wrath as I played through Makeb missions with both my SW and SI. I am not sure how much weight SI or SW's own opinions of themselves carry, but I felt in both self confidence and others recognitions, Wrath is regarded as stronger, such as when SI says the war will be different since he has ascended to the Dark Council, Maul tells him that confidence does not win the war, while SW can speak in the same impudent manners, Maul is somewhat more respectful in response. There is a line by SW during makeb missions that I distinctively recall, "I am the emperor's Wrath. There is no army, no droids, no enemies capable of stopping me." and a few other lines that claims he is the strongest sith and sounded more arrogant than SI lines, at least in his own opinion; of course, SW's arrogance and others respect could be attributed to Wrath outranking Dark Council (according to the codex), though. However, this is when I felt Wrath is stronger and leaned towards Wrath.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol keep telling yourself that. You've made more shall we say "mistakes" in these two post than I have in 10 pages. But I'm not going to dedicate an entire paragraph to ad hominems. I think we're done here. I've said what I needed to say.

 

My tone was overly aggressive. I am sorry.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Highsis

[CrutchCricket]

I think people are missing something about the whole Zash thing. If we recall, the Heir of Kallig only ever actually handed Zash the first artifact from the Dark Temple. The Heir went about collecting the others, but never returned to Zash to deliver them. For all we know the rest were just fluff and, Zash herself said before that the one they found described a "peculiar ritual". That may have been Essence Transfer itself. The rest of Tulak Hord's artifacts may have been for different purposes altogether since we don't see Zash ever in possession of them, only that she'd been doing rituals in secret to protect herself from outside Force powers.

 

Thing is, we never see the Artifacts ever employed. Once Zash was beaten, she attempted the Essence Transfer and Khem interceded. Zash's body did remain, but that could be due to the ritual being incomplete and imperfect because of Khem's interference. It could also have to do with the method being used as Zash didn't make physical contact with the Heir to perform the ritual, unlike Bane who had to physically grasp Zannah to attempt the Essence Transfer.

 

We do see there are multiple methods for the same thing. Even Palpatine had to use others to call his spirit back to transfer his essence into a new clone body, though he is capable of attempting to transfer to others upon his death, it's just not guaranteed as, when attempting to transfer to the body of an Imperial Guardsman he formed a Force Bond with, Palpy was repelled and forced to wait until a new body was prepared for him.

I always assumed Kallig just brought the other artifacts with him when he met Zash in the tomb. We never see them, but then we don't really see them when he picks them up (in cutscenes) anyway. And that brings up an issue with the way things go down in the tomb as well- there is no real ritual preparation. Zash doesn't actually do anything when you get there besides reveal herself and attack. I suppose that could be used as evidence to support the idea that the artifacts and overly complicated ritual were all a ruse and Zash did just want to do the essence transfer. But then that raises the question of why bother with that particular ruse. If all she needed was the inquisitor distracted while she prepared, day to day apprentice stuff would've sufficed. Or even sending him off to war. Like I said before I don't believe Zash thought Kallig was that powerful or that much of a threat so I'm not sure I buy that she would need all this extra assistance to win.

 

Anyway, even if the invocation wasn't as complex as I first thought I still say it's a different ritual than Andeddu's. Clearly it's a path to the same thing (transferring your essence) but like you mentioned the activation is different- physical contact vs no physical contact, levitation and some kind of energy discharge (the static barrier that surrounds both of them). And the effects are obviously not the same by far.

 

I would argue that the body remaining intact would be a huge flaw. Essence transfer well.. transfers your essence. One would think if you transferred your essence into another body there would be no residual force left in the body. A wise sith could pick up on this and realize the body is completely devoid of the force. That would be seen as peculiar or suspicious. That being said, there is Palpatine's quote and we also know using rituals usually does not result in the power manifesting in the exact same way.

 

It does seem to me she used an incomplete version of it. In the end, what she used was "Essence Transfer." just like there's electric judgement. It has manifested as Green and Orange. You can argue "No, they're different colors so they're obviously different." but they aren't. It's still Electric Judgement. If it was completely different from Andeddu's technique why even have it listed as the same name? Want an example?

 

Obi Wan Kenobi became one with the force and his body vanished. Qui Gon Jin did the same thing and his body did not vanish. Then he taught it to Yoda who taught it to Obi Wan. Does this mean they ended up using a completely different technique considering both Yoda and Obi Wan's body vanished?

 

There is inconsistencies on how force powers operate depending on the individual. So I will stand by my statement..

 

Essence Transfer is Essence Transfer.

That brings up the question of whether a person's spirit is not only all Force but also the source of all the Force in a being. I don't think we can conclusively answer that but I would lean on no because (prepare for upcoming cringe) midi-chlorians. If midi-chlorians are microscopic organisms, physical ones, that are responsible for touching and manifesting the Force then that would preclude the above assumption. There's no reason to assume the midi-chlorians would all disappear from the body after "death" whether essence transfer would occur or not. To that end I don't think dead bodies appear devoid of the Force even though the Jedi/Sith would no longer "feel" the individual. I think if corpses were devoid of Force someone would've mentioned it by now.

 

As for Qui-Gon Jinn I'm pretty sure he is said to have learned how to commune with the Force after his death and reach out to Yoda to teach him who in turn teaches Obi-wan. So I don't think Qui-Gon "died" the same way Yoda and Obi-wan did. And looking it up further, becoming one with the Force is different from returning as a ghost (which is what Qui-Gon did after death and what he taught Yoda). Star Wars afterlife is a bit nebulous and not very well described but from what I can tell it isn't mandatory for a Jedi's body to vanish after death but it is the case with everyone's who's returned as a ghost. Also consider Mara Jade who willfully did not become one with the Force in order to keep her body a clue as to her murderer and only chose to vanish at her funeral after Caedus walked in, and only later finally manifested as a ghost. So I would say the only thing different here is timing. Not so with essence transfer where procedures and effects are clearly different.

 

We have Essence Transfer A and Essence Transfer B. Also, if you check out the Wookipedia page on Essence Transfer, Zash isn't listed (though the Emperor is- however they allow that it may be a similar power). That may not be the end-all proof of course, but it does show my interpretation has weight outside my own reasoning.

 

My tone was overly aggressive. I am sorry.

No worries. I think anyone who argues x vs y in a fandom and claims they're purely objective and not biased is deluding themselves. We have clear preferences and while we try to limit their impact in argument they do provide the motivation to engage or at least a part of it. As such, sometimes we go overboard.

 

I think we've exhaustively replied to each other's points. It'll be up to others to judge for themselves what they believe based on the evidence and interpretations presented.

[NSStember]

Honestly I think you can make valid cases for both, but either way both storylines are very enjoyable. Edited December 12, 2014 by NSStember

[Kaedusz]

I always get a weird in a bad way vibe from the Sith Warrior lore wise.He seems like a Club/Bar Bodyguard simpleton ,that just happens to have force sensitivity.

When i play Warrior i make myself believe he is a Bane/Vader type of sith.I remember what Bane said about sorcery and that his talents lay elsewhere,etc.. and i apply that to the Wrath.But it's a long shot to be honest,a try-hard attempt to not hate playing the class.

 

The inquisitor on the other hand despite the arguments that he used borrowed power to get to a high position in the Empire,he feels like a proper Sith.He is his own man.Also lore wise he has a Darth name and big background,meaning he has a place in history.

All the while the Wrath is always another proper Sith Lord's enforcer.

 

The only upside for the Wrath is that he gets to corrupt a jedi and make her his aprentice.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Aussircaex]

I've read about half the thread, so I apologize if I retread anything.

 

If it came down to single combat, I believe the Wrath would have an edge over Nox, because that's simply the threat the Wrath has to represent and be feared for: that the Emperor has the ability to strike any of them down via his proxy.

 

That being said, as the inquisitor story demonstrates, nobody gets to be on the Dark Council without knowing how to avoid, survive, subvert, undermine, and defeat those more powerful than oneself. That's the whole point of Sith meritocratic culture. Nox, or any capable Darth, would do everything they could to not be caught with their pants down; bringing allies or otherwise stacking the deck in their favor (e.g. the force-ghosts).

 

So man-to-man, the Wrath could kill Nox, but if such a thing were ever going to actually happen, the story would be much more complex.

[Silverspar]

I've read about half the thread, so I apologize if I retread anything.

 

If it came down to single combat, I believe the Wrath would have an edge over Nox, because that's simply the threat the Wrath has to represent and be feared for: that the Emperor has the ability to strike any of them down via his proxy.

 

That being said, as the inquisitor story demonstrates, nobody gets to be on the Dark Council without knowing how to avoid, survive, subvert, undermine, and defeat those more powerful than oneself. That's the whole point of Sith meritocratic culture. Nox, or any capable Darth, would do everything they could to not be caught with their pants down; bringing allies or otherwise stacking the deck in their favor (e.g. the force-ghosts).

 

So man-to-man, the Wrath could kill Nox, but if such a thing were ever going to actually happen, the story would be much more complex.

 

However, Thanaton was a low level thug, basically; strong yes, but not the strongest of the Dark Council. Darth Baras on the other hand, had the entire council practically convinced, except for Vowran, that he was indeed the new Voice of the Emperor.

 

Considering how the fight goes for the warrior against Baras, who is quite powerful on his own, and there was no help in that fight for the warrior, Wrath has the upper hand against Nox quite easily, sorcery or not since Wrath can deflect sith sorcery.

 

And especially considering Darth Marr still respects Wath versus him actually seething at Nox due to Nox having his friend Thanaton killed (since Marr made it clear that he was tired of the infighting and thus wasn't pursuing revenge) I don't think it's hard to surmise that as far as strength in the Force and power tends tog o more towards the warrior. Just because sith lightning isn't being thrown about doesn't mean they aren't strong in the Force after all.

 

Again, as pointed by others, the Emperor doesn't choose his Wrath lightly and a Wrath that couldn't handle the Dark Council would be useless to the Emperor.

 

Also the comment about how the fight with Baras is considered anti-climactic? Huh? I found the Thanaton fight to be anti-climactic, the Baras fight to be poetic justice. Hell to be blunt, the whole Thanaton thing seemed more like a spoiled child kicking and screaming over not getting their cookie from start to finish and just culminated into a playground fight, and despite winning in the end, the council still see's Nox as the bully and scrub, while the Baras plot was more about getting revenge for true betrayal and in the end garner respect for someone that truly threatened the well being of the Empire.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Silverspar

[SirUrza]

The real question is who would win in the battle of apprentices... Ashara or Jaesa.

[Silverspar]

The real question is who would win in the battle of apprentices... Ashara or Jaesa.

 

With all the pedophiles biting at the bit for their Togruta so they can make their Ahsoka Clones (I lost track of how many variants of the spelling Ahsoka Tano I've seen so far) I am sure Ashara would just win. After that, I haven't seen enough of Ashara to know, Jaesa... just comes off as another Kira, which I didn't find Kira that great of a character.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Silverspar