Emperor's Wrath vs Darth Nox, who is more powerful lore-wise?

[Ghisallo]

Debatable. Part of their line is "Our union." their union has been weakened from the death of one of their members. They are practically a hive mind. How would having a simple minion who sows fear make their now incomplete union complete again?

 

Scion means, "Lineal descendant (of a notable family), a son or daughter", and Lineal Descendant means: A lineal descendant, in legal usage, refers to a blood relative in the direct line of descent. In this case one could argue, taking the term Scion literally, that the Wrath might have been considered as a successor.

 

Not only that but being a hive mind they likely share each others powers to an extent. So while the Warrior as he/she is now does not have knowledge of sorcery or as strong a focus on the use of the force itself as the Inquisitor, the minute he was to join such a hive mind he would gain the knowledge. What they search for is someone who shares a similar mind set/personality and has the adequate "horse power" (for lack of a better term.)

[Rhyltran]

Lineal descendant is not the same as brother or sister.

 

Sister/Bro implies a peer, an equal on the same generational level. Descendant is a follower, one who looks upwards for wisdom and/or guidance.

 

 

But these words are used out of context, and I doubt BW went into this much word planning.

 

"A lineal descendant, in legal usage, refers to a blood relative in the direct line of descent - the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. of a person. In a legal procedure sense, lineal descent refers to the acquisition of estate by inheritance from grandparent to parent and parent to child"

 

What? It meant exactly what I said. Descendant as a follower is only one definition but usually it's used as..

 

1. a person or animal that is descended from a specific ancestor; an offspring.

 

Lineal descendant refers to the first definition of descendant. Lineal refers to Lineage.

 

Just saying an argument can be made if you want to take it literally.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Ghisallo]

When does a scion mean follower, with the possible exception of saying that someone followed their predecessor into a position of authority?

[Rhyltran]

When does a scion mean follower, with the possible exception of saying that someone followed their predecessor into a position of authority?

 

Good point.

[Nydus]

They are never going establish which of the player classes is the most "powerful".

 

That's like arguing who is more powerful, Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. It's a useless question.

 

- Arcada

[DARTHOSIRUS]

Nox is a mix between sorcerer and assassin anyways. His force powers are clearly showed to be so strong after he learns to control his force ghosts, no matter advanced class. Just look at what he does to Thanaton at the end, pretty horrifying in truth.

 

Also, I don't see why that'd give Wrath a huge advantage. Nox's style of combat is a hybrid between melee and force, leaning more towards force. Meaning that the lightsaber are there for defensive purposes and melee combat only, while the force are utilized. This is especially true after Chapter 1. In chapter one, then Nox is not as brilliant with the Force and he therefore relies more on his lightsaber than in Chapter 2. This is perfectly in line with what Nox is supposed to, as Nox is clearly based off Thanaton and Thanaton starts out with a saberstaff. (And he's a former slave, and his rise is like Nox's impressive and unorthodox, as he has to fight for his place, much like Thanaton did as everyone despised him because of his master.)

 

Meaning; Nox could probably use a saberstaff and use it much more than what a sorcerer in game does(Game mechanics, after all), but after Chapter 1 he would see the true strenght of the Dark side more potently. After all, he's a ritualist. Sorcerers are said to be dark side ritualists in the start (when you get to chose advanced class), and it's no dobut that Nox is a master ritualist, which he even was as an acolyte. Anyways, Nox would combine his force powers to lightsaber combat and it's no telling who'd win. Wrath is better with his lightsaber, Nox is better with the Force. What's worth more? It varies, but the "strongest" Sith ever are usually Sorcerers. Sidious, Vitiate, Nihilius are unmatched by all warriors, as their personal power have grown too much. It doesn't make sorcerers better, no. But the best sorcerer is always better than the best warrior because it takes a lot more to become the best sorcerer, it takes dangerous rituals and powers that might kill you(Nihilus' power eats him alive, destroys his body), which is a much higher side-effect than the typical "warrior"ones. The Dark side's sorcery actually consumes people, that's how strong it is. Nihilius felt it, Nox almost died because of it. Zash looked 1000 year old because of her rituals. Imagine the power she actually possess, being able to not just hide it, but to get thar far? She's reckless, sure, but to have your body so damaged is a sign of pure force energy. Because these rituals and powers are too powerful for any body. And that's why sorcerers, having more power than what a body can endure, have a higher potential than warriors. At a higher cost, but it's still a higher reward. This is not true in most cases because most rituals or force powers aren't that powerful, but it's a fact that the best three Sith are sorcerers. Wrath may be stronger, maybe he'd defeat Nox. But it's nothing that shows it. I'm sure it'd be close, but we do not know. It's however impossible that it'd not be Wrath's hardest fight yet.

 

Again, I'd guess that it'd be close, and we don't really know how it'd turn out. I hope we don't get to find out as I find Sith vs Sith a bit boring, I'd like to see the Empire move away from those powerstruggles, in a model such as Marr dreams of.

 

 

Sorcerers Sidious, Vitiate, Nihilius are unmatched by all warriors, as their personal power have grown too much.

 

This true but...

 

The 3 above are the most powerful sorcerer's in the star wars universe. They are the very last word in sorcery. The average sorcerer usually goes mad from all the power and eventually they are killed or destroy themselves. Darth Zash can do all her dark side rituals until she is blue in the face, but would still fail miserably against The Wrath. Zash is a powerful sorcerer to. The epitome of the warrior is probably someone like Darth Malgus or Darth Bane, and they will be outclassed by the 3 names above. However guys like Sidious, Vitiate, Nihilius only come along once in a blue moon.

Edited February 17, 2015 by DARTHOSIRUS

[Ghisallo]

The problem with the comparison people are making here is that they are ignoring the game itself. In the game only the best can be both sorcerer and warrior...even then they can be beaten by "just" a warrior (cough Jedi Knight v the Emperor...cough...cough...cough.). And don't say "oh the Knight 'only' defeated the voice.". The devs specifically stated that the Knight defeated the Emperor not just a puppet.

 

So when you remove fanboidom it comes down to this... The Inquisitor who becomes a member of the Dark Council is equal in power to the Wrath. What determines victory is the circumstances of the fight...whose strengths does the "arena" favor? Can the Inquisior use the area to keep distance between he and the Warrior so he can use his spells if the sorcerer? Does he have the room to maneuver, and the patience, so he can use his stealth and various CC's, essentially dancing around the warrior? If so Nox wins Does the warrior instead manage to make it so it is a toe to toe nose to nose "bar fight?". Then he wins.

 

Trying to say "oh the Inquis is both an assassain and a sorcerer" is simply not tenable. It isn't simply a matter of mechanics...there is a cut scene where you are told you must be one or the other. That makes the fact you are one or the other lore. If not then you would end up facing a Juggernaught who was nigh indestructible with the mobility and damage potential of a dual blade wielding of a Marauder. Again the balance is maintained because the warrior would not be limited in being tough, but not tough enough to outlast your damage...he would instead be giving at least as good as he got and so again...where the battle occurs determines the victor.

 

Now maybe if you live as long as the Emperor does due to your acquisition of numerous Sith artifacts, or manage to find mega powerful ones and a place of power with thousands of Massassi willing to sacrifice themselves in your name like Exar Kun, you can then transcend these limits but until then... but until then neither is more powerful. If it was the case the last two enforcers of the Emperor would NOT have been warriors but instead sorcerers.

[Leaveshill]

La la la .

 

Stated about the Emperor by the Jedi master you free at Corellia " Even in his weakened state, your are no match for him!"

Meaning - he was weakened. He had never in a million years lost to the JK if he was at his full power. Then he'd just do his force storm-chain lightning combo and the JK would be down again. That's a fact. And it was the Voice, but his voice had most of his power in him. (The Emperor is, as said, a Pureblood and not human). It's a 100% fact that it was not the Emperor himself. Hence why Scourge said "He's fading, but he's still there" or something like that. But again. He was weakened, if not then the JK wouldn't have won. He didn't get any "new tricks" as far as I remember, he only weakened the emperor before coming.

 

Also, a Sorcerer-assassin combo would be much, much more "OP" in the game than the maurauder/Juggernaut. And better outside of the game as well. Maurauders are bad atm. Sorcerers are good and assassins are "The top dogs";. And a maurauder or juggernaut is about the same style, being a sorcerer that can fight head to toe with the greatest warriors in close range yet can murder them from range is much more effective. Of course, Nox isn't supposed to be better or just as good in close range, that's made purely for game mechanics. But Nox isn't a pure sorcerer with "2 lightbsaber abilities", that's game mechanics as well. He's a sorcerer anyways, look at the storyline and tell me that he can be anything BUT a sorcerer. It doesn't matter. You are a sorcerer. It's no way around it. If you play assasssin then you're an assassin-sorcerer. It's just how the game is. It's a storyline that's made for sorcery.

Also, the reason it's likely to assume that you're a hybrid is ; (in game characters only)Sith Warrior - based on Malgus. Malgus can use both dual wielding and one haded.

Inquisitor - Based upon Thanaton, who was an assassin in his youth and changed to be a sorcerer.

Also, all sorcerers are capable of fighting with their lightsabers. Nox is a silent killer, and even if the Wrath is a better sword-figher, Nox has a lightsaber for a reason.

 

Also, I never said that Nox is stronger. I stated multiple times that they're about equal, as I've said many times. "Again, I'd guess that it'd be close, and we don't really know how it'd turn out. "

I just said that the most powerful sorcerers are always more powerful than the most powerful warriors. Look at Sion vs Nihilius. I know they removed the scene (as draining Sion's force would actually kill him once and for all), but that's how simple it is for the greatest sorcerer to kill the greatest warrior.

Also, the rituals performed don't need to sacrifice. It's a reason Force walking kills the body. It's like with Nihilius. It's so much power that you actually die. So that ritual is very underrated in the game.

Again, I never said that Wrath would die in a heartbeat, I just commented on the warrior-fans thinking that "Me stronk, me smash everything" and that they're therefore the most powerful being in the SWTOR univserse, which a lot of them seem to think. I've never thought or said that Nox is the perfect force user, nor that he'd kill Wrath in a heartbeat. I've stated multiple times that a lot of factors would be important, and that the outcome is impossible to call.

 

And if he's an assassin; keep in mind that he's a sorcerer in the cinematics. He's a ritualist,look at what he can do with the force. No matter what, Nox is a sorcerer. If not, then he'd never learn rituals like Force walking, dream walking, mind healing. These rituals are complicated, dangerous, and only sorcerers can do them. Nox is, no matter what you think, a sorcerer with some possible assassin-skills. It's 99% likely that you can call him a hybrid. Why not? Nobody is a pure sorcerer. Everyone, maybe outside of the emperor, uses their lightsabers as well.

 

Also; The wraths= Enforcers.

Enforcers=warriors.

This is because of a number of reasons. But most of all.

The new Wrath wasn't chosen for other reasons than his fallout with Baras. Simple.

Also, why'd the Emperor keep Sorcerers around him? Sorcerers aren't bodyguards. He'd want someoen that can stand idle guard for him and defend him when need be, and hunt for traitors/enemies. Warriors are better suited for hunting than sorcerers. Sidious don't hunt, Vader do. The master wants a warrior as a league of sorcerers will have a weakness due to being too reliant on the force.

 

Again, I never said that Nox is stronger than Wrath, I just said that the strongest sorcerers are stronger than the strongest warriors, due to having an endless potential which warriors cannot achieve, and a warrior's lack of force knowledge makes it impossible for them to defend against certain force attacks. I've stated in most of my posts, at least once (just to keep it on the good side) that I don't think that Nox would wipe the floor with Wrath. That's something I've never stated.

*and to the "it's in the game that you speak with them"

As far as I remember, they're "new" to help "new" players out. You just have a conversation with the advanced-trainer, and that was there from the start to explain to you, the player, what to do. Keep in mind that the Inquisitor storyline is a sorcerer storyline anyways. You might not like it, but that's how it is. And being an assassin makes him an assassin-sorcerer hybrid. That's how this game is. It's 100% false to claim that Nox isn't a sorcerer. He can be both, but he's a sorcerer anyways

ALSO: A reason for why Sorcerers in general are "stronger". I'll explain it.

Sorcerers - Aren't "stopped" from being master duelists. Dooku was a master with lightsaber combat. And Sidious, the "master sorcerer" of the movies have mastered all aspects of lightsaber combat, hasn't he? That's the difference. The Sorcerers are, normally, experts at ALL aspects of the Force and combat. Warriors are not. And I'll explain why.

Being a sorcerer is, like in every "magical" world, MUCH, MUCH harder than being a warrior. Want to know why? It takes much, much more time, more effort and the risk is, as we see with Nihilius (His body dying) or Nox (The Force sickness due to the Force walking ritual being too powerful for any body if you consume more than one ghost), much, much higher. It's much more dangerous, it's much more complicated, and it's much more powerful at it's best. And being a sorcerer does not stop you from being a master at martial arts. Sure, the best lightsaber duelists will mostly be "Pure warriors", but it's simply a fact that sorcerers USUALLY have a lot of knowledge about lightsaber dueling as well. Nox is no difference. It's just how it is. Being a sorcerer does not mean that you can't be an assassin. Hell, Zannah or whatever is a sorcerer with a staff. It's normal that Sorcerers are fighters as well. It's just that it takes much more effort to learn, and the risk is greater. Also, a lot of people are likely not even capable of learning. It's a reason Nox can try to learn the Force walking ritual, as stated by Kallig "You have a special ability with ghosts" or something like that. Most people would just die when they try. That's how sorcery is. In every universe. Not stating that warriors "suck", but it's a fact that sorcery is harder(not in game, but it's logical and it's like that in every single fantasy/sci-fi world)

And again. I never said that Nox is more powerful than Wrath. But it's still a fact that sorcerers are, as shown time and time again, usually capable of fighting with lightsabers as well. And Nox is a sorcerer even if the Advanced class is "assassin." This is part of the lore and the story, no matter what. It cannot be debated. Nobody can claim that Nox is not a sorcerer. He can be an assassin AS WELL, but he's a sorcerer anyways. .

 

 

 

@DARTHOSIRUS, Zash isn't that powerful. She's powerful during the ritual as she spent weeks or even months preparing for this very moment. A sorcerer in his or her "right" moment are almost impossible to beat, if they've spent months setting up various rituals for this very moment, at this very location. And I don't say that "average" sorcers are better than "the best warriors", just that sorcery has a higher possible potental, even though this potential is much harder to get to than martial arts. Also, Darth Bane isn't a pure warrior, is he? I always thought that he spent a lot of time with rituals etc as well. But I might be mistaken on that part.

 

Edited February 17, 2015 by Leaveshill

[DARTHOSIRUS]

Basically Nox and Wrath are about equal in power now, but Nox has more potential. I agree with this. Nox seems to be the rare sorcerer who comes along once in a blue moon to achieve near unlimited power. One thing you seem to neglect is warriors can study sith sorcery. It might be very limited, but for instance they can learn enough about it so they can defend against it. For example Darth Bane learned all he could about sith sorcery so one day when his apprentice Darth Zannah challenged him he would be prepared. During the duel Zannah did bust out the sorcery to try and drive Bane insane with force illusions, but Bane was able to defend. Virtually any other warrior would have fallen, but Bane prevailed, at least thru that part. Zannah then summoned force tendrils made of pure dark side energy. Bane used force enhanced speed to dodge them all and disarm Zannah. One of the tendrils latched on to his arm just when he was about to make the killing blow. Bane then used sith sorcery and entered Zannah's body nearly driving out her spirit. Bane is an example of a wise and powerful warrior who had strong defense against sorcery plus even using a bit of sorcery himself via the essence transfer ritual. Darth Zannah might not be Darth Nihilus or Vitiate, but she is very powerful and probably the epitome of what an aspiring sorcerer could hope to become realistically. Edited February 17, 2015 by DARTHOSIRUS

[Leaveshill]

basically Nox and Wrath are about equal in power now, but Nox has more potential. I agree with this. Nox seems to be the rare sorcerer who comes along once in a blue moon to achieve near unlimited power. One thing you seem to neglect is warriors can study sith sorcery. It might be very limited, but for instance they can learn enough about it so they can defend against it. For example Darth Bane learned all he could about sith sorcery so one day when his apprentice Darth Zannah challenged him he would be prepared. During the duel Zannah did bust out the sorcery to try and drive Bane insane with force illusions, but Bane was able to defend. Virtually any other warrior would have fallen, but Bane prevailed, at least thru that part. Zannah then summoned force tendrils made of pure dark side energy. Bane used force enhanced speed to dodge them all and disarm Zannah. One of the tendrils latched on to his arm just when he was about to make the killing blow. Bane then used sith sorcery and entered Zannah's body nearly driving out her spirit. Bane is an example of a wise and powerful warrior who had strong defense against sorcery plus using a bit of sorcery himself via the essence transfer ritual. Darth Zannah might not be Darth Nihilus or Vitiate, but she is very powerful and probably the epitome of what an aspiring sorcerer could hope to become realistically.

 

About equal indeed. They're after all two very powerful and promising sith lords, let's see if they can lead our beloved Empire into a new era!

And I guess you're right about that. I might be too quick to neglect warriors using sorcery and calling them (or thinking about them) as Sorcerers, and that's of course not correct. It's a warrior with sorcerer tendencies, which of course aren't impossible and which makes the warrior on question a warrior and not a sorcerer.. Good points.