Emperor's Wrath vs Darth Nox, who is more powerful lore-wise?

[Rhyltran]

Dark Side Tendrils are said to annihilate all matter they come in contact with and injure you with the full scope of the void of the dark side. It doesn't seem like there is any possible resistance. You could dodge but again you're answering a fundamentally mental attack with a physical defense. Even with all the speed the Force can give, are you faster than a thought?

 

As for future Sith it may not have been documented (we know nothing about the Sith between Cognus and Tenebrae). Or Cognus got around it with her precognition/Force disruption and having no affinity for it herself did not pass it on directly. Surprisingly Wookiepedia lists Kyp Durron as a user, though maybe he used a slightly different attack.

 

 

By that token we haven't seen the Warrior deal with any sorcery or prepare for it so he may well be more vulnerable than you care to admit. Beyond this point we'd have to get into speculation as to what Nox or the Wrath might learn that would give them an edge and/or protect them better. All I'm saying is the potential for sorcery is greater than that of martial strength. Obviously whatever individual skill level they are each at when this hypothetical confrontation occurs will be a deciding factor.

 

As for Marek, yeah all power to him. Palpatine messed up. He should've tried to get Marek as his apprentice for real. A few rebels and dissidents could wait.

 

In the novel Kyp indeed did a similar tactic and the problem is that the technique does require concentration. There are ways around it. Force push, telekinetic assaults, etc. Bane really wasn't thinking. By other Sith I'm talking about Palpatine. Palpatine didn't employ it and as for speed I'm not talking about the speed of thought. I'm talking about how fast the tendrils themselves can move or how fast the user can make them move. If you move faster than the Tendrils are capable of moving it doesn't matter. However, as mentioned, the technique does require concentration.

 

As stated if the move was unbeatable than Palpatine would have used it on Yoda as well as Windu but he didn't. Most likely because of their telekinetic ability. Not to mention their speed/agility. It also depends where the battle is taking place. Causing a ceiling to collapse, a pillar to fall, etc would force the tendril user to move at which point they could be intercepted. There was nothing around like that during Bane's duel which was smart by Zannah. It's curious why he didn't try to force push her or use lightning.

 

The most probable reason is that she would have easily overpowered those techniques and not have to give ground given that she was stronger than him. Which goes back to previous points.. we know in lore if the Sith Warrior is equal to the Inquisitor and the Inquisitor was using the Tendril technique in order to block force push he'd have to use telekinetic power of his own. In lore if both were equal it'd result in both flying backwards. If two sides really wish to kill each other someone is going to have to go on the offensive at some point or it's going to end in a draw.

 

Don't forget that even though he lost the orbelisks it still took a toll on bane. He lost a lot of power from losing him and he knew it. They were constantly feeding on his force energy and with them he ended up relying nearly 100% on saber attacks. This mentality seemed unchanged when he battled Zannah despite previously using a mixture of both force and saber skill. This whole comparison doesn't really work given that at this point Zannah was stronger than Bane.

 

I still argue the two are equal. You keep arguing that the Sith Warrior needs to have some knowledge on how to deal with Sith Sorcery and I'll ask, why? What exact power has Nox displayed that can't be redirected, blocked, shrugged off, or even dodged?

[Eidolooon]

As for Sel-Makor again anyone can apparently defeat an avatar via the planetary quest. .

 

he got possesed and sel makor itself said "so much power" which points to the fact that sel makor+this vessel made him way stronger than he usually was. so instead making assumptions, start using facts.

 

and btw shielding techniques are quite basic skills for most dueslits, so they could actually "duel".

Edited November 22, 2014 by Eidolooon

[Highsis]

he got possesed and sel makor itself said "so much power" which points to the fact that sel makor+this vessel made him way stronger than he usually was. so instead making assumptions, start using facts.

 

and btw shielding techniques are quite basic skills for most dueslits, so they could actually "duel".

 

Yes, I wanted to point this out as I was reading down the thread, and finally someone did.

 

I also wonder why people ignore the fact that the SW

1. destroyed 3 DC members

2. fought 3 Jedi masters simultaneously

3. fought 2 Jedi masters of legendary fame(legendary teacher + beset duelist he has ever taught) simultaneously

4. defeated 2 Jedi masters who both bested DC members(Noman Karr and Xerender)

5. defeated a Jedi master much stronger than Xerender (Wyellett)

6. defeated Draahg who easily bested DC member

7. defeated the voice of the emperor empowered by Sel-Makor

while continuously stating that SW needed the help of Baras's apprentice to defeate Darth Vengeon. Does that even matter when SW had already bested at least 5 enemies who either defeated DC member or are clearly stronger than average DC members?

 

Thenaton could be either weaker or stronger than Baras(I think Baras is stronger due to sith ancient spirit and other DC member's attitude), but SW defeated many opponents more powerful than Baras.

 

Baras was not the strongest enemy SW defeated. Thenaton was the strongest enemy SI defeated.

 

 

Ekkage was powerful but she took that lord by surprise with his defenses lowered. I don't think she could insta-stomp anyone if they were ready for it.

 

SW encourages Ekkage to kill the lord, Ekkage openly approves, then after that lord took out his lightsaber to defend, Ekkage stomps him with pure lighting power.

 

I think you are downplaying SW against facts presented in the game in this and Voice of the emperor's case.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Highsis

[Eidolooon]

SW encourages Ekkage to kill the lord, Ekkage openly approves, then after that lord took out his lightsaber to defend, Ekkage stomps him with pure lighting power.

 

I think you are downplaying SW against facts presented in the game in this and Voice of the emperor's case.

 

yes, i remember that too. and she referrs to this kill as snaping her fingers.

[CrutchCricket]

In the novel Kyp indeed did a similar tactic and the problem is that the technique does require concentration. There are ways around it. Force push, telekinetic assaults, etc. Bane really wasn't thinking. By other Sith I'm talking about Palpatine. Palpatine didn't employ it and as for speed I'm not talking about the speed of thought. I'm talking about how fast the tendrils themselves can move or how fast the user can make them move. If you move faster than the Tendrils are capable of moving it doesn't matter. However, as mentioned, the technique does require concentration.

 

As stated if the move was unbeatable than Palpatine would have used it on Yoda as well as Windu but he didn't. Most likely because of their telekinetic ability. Not to mention their speed/agility. It also depends where the battle is taking place. Causing a ceiling to collapse, a pillar to fall, etc would force the tendril user to move at which point they could be intercepted. There was nothing around like that during Bane's duel which was smart by Zannah. It's curious why he didn't try to force push her or use lightning.

 

The most probable reason is that she would have easily overpowered those techniques and not have to give ground given that she was stronger than him. Which goes back to previous points.. we know in lore if the Sith Warrior is equal to the Inquisitor and the Inquisitor was using the Tendril technique in order to block force push he'd have to use telekinetic power of his own. In lore if both were equal it'd result in both flying backwards. If two sides really wish to kill each other someone is going to have to go on the offensive at some point or it's going to end in a draw.

 

Don't forget that even though he lost the orbelisks it still took a toll on bane. He lost a lot of power from losing him and he knew it. They were constantly feeding on his force energy and with them he ended up relying nearly 100% on saber attacks. This mentality seemed unchanged when he battled Zannah despite previously using a mixture of both force and saber skill. This whole comparison doesn't really work given that at this point Zannah was stronger than Bane.

 

I still argue the two are equal. You keep arguing that the Sith Warrior needs to have some knowledge on how to deal with Sith Sorcery and I'll ask, why? What exact power has Nox displayed that can't be redirected, blocked, shrugged off, or even dodged?

Don't feel like digging the book out but from what I remember it was described as a dark mist with tendrils streaking out. So it seems like it would progressively cover more and more area and not just be one or two tentacles you can sidestep. Also since they're made of pure dark side I would imagine lightning or any other dark side attack would just get absorbed. Direct kinetic attacks might work unless Zannah was able to resist them via basic shielding. Which also speaks to your Warrior vs Sorcerer tendril hypothetical. I don't think direct telekinetic attacks are blockable by tendrils unless you're saying telekinesis used by Sith is inherently darkside (and thus different from that of Jedi) which I don't believe. Nox would have to resist those the old fashioned way, which we have to assume he can do otherwise it really doesn't matter what sorcery he brings to bear unless he's able to strike first. Throwing things I would assume would be out since the tendrils are said to annihilate all matter they touch.

 

As for Palpatine, curbstomping was never his style (in the movies at least). He always played as being more feeble than he really was, probably to toy with them or in the specific cases of the movies to lure relevant Skywalkers to their fall. And in the battle with Yoda he clearly didn't need it. It might also be argued that pure dark side attacks can be countered with pure light side attacks and Yoda might well have had one up his sleeve. I'm not suggesting tendrils can be whipped up as the "I win" card on a whim. It's probably quite costly and if it's not necessary or if there's a chance they'll fail it's best to pick something else. But going back to the warrior we're working with canon assumptions right? That would preclude light side counters.

 

I only mentioned the orbalisks because they made Bane pretty much unstoppable in combat, allowed him to heal almost anything, bolstered his Force powers way beyond sane levels when in combat rage and fed on dark side energy. They weakened him overall but in combat they made him the ultimate expression of a dark side Warrior. But even that would've failed against the tendrils.

 

The warrior needs special knowledge to counter it because sorcery is fundamentally special knowledge. It's not so much what Nox can specifically do or has been seen doing, it's just the nature of the thing. By that same token I have admitted a few paragraphs ago that if Nox can't resist the Wrath's physical attacks or if the Wrath simply rips through them (Bane provides yet another example when he ripped through that one apprentice's defenses in the dueling circle on Korriban and killed him) he can still lose before he has time to do his spells. But that ironically goes against one of our assumptions that they're equal in power level.

 

he got possesed and sel makor itself said "so much power" which points to the fact that sel makor+this vessel made him way stronger than he usually was. so instead making assumptions, start using facts.

 

and btw shielding techniques are quite basic skills for most dueslits, so they could actually "duel".

 

Facts? You mean like how the Emperor wanted to get struck down and escape and how he specifically said "I will lower my defenses" in order for the Wrath to strike? Or how about how the Emperor and Sel-Makor were constantly locked in a stalemate with the Emperor unable to leave/kill himself and Sel-Makor unable to fully consume/transform him? Them's the facts. Ready for some logic? If the Emperor wanted to die and Sel-Makor wanted to possess him and destroy the one thing that could grant the Emperor's wish what would be the logical thing for the Emperor to do? Resist possession. A house divided cannot stand. An avatar of Sel-Makor is powerful. The Emperor's Voice is powerful. The two having an internal battle of wills while a warrior hacks at them is not. Now what was that about assumptions?

 

The shielding techniques you refer to are basic protection against physical Force attacks. A Force user vs a regular dude doesn't even need his lightsaber or crazy sorcery. He can just snap the guy's neck. Your "shields" are a basic technique everybody learns to keep that from happening. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

[CrutchCricket]

Yes, I wanted to point this out as I was reading down the thread, and finally someone did.

 

I also wonder why people ignore the fact that the SW

1. destroyed 3 DC members

2. fought 3 Jedi masters simultaneously

3. fought 2 Jedi masters of legendary fame(legendary teacher + beset duelist he has ever taught) simultaneously

4. defeated 2 Jedi masters who both bested DC members(Noman Karr and Xerender)

5. defeated a Jedi master much stronger than Xerender (Wyellett)

6. defeated Draahg who easily bested DC member

7. defeated the voice of the emperor empowered by Sel-Makor

while continuously stating that SW needed the help of Baras's apprentice to defeate Darth Vengeon. Does that even matter when SW had already bested at least 5 enemies who either defeated DC member or are clearly stronger than average DC members?

 

Thenaton could be either weaker or stronger than Baras(I think Baras is stronger due to sith ancient spirit and other DC member's attitude), but SW defeated many opponents more powerful than Baras.

 

Baras was not the strongest enemy SW defeated. Thenaton was the strongest enemy SI defeated.

A few corrections I could make to that list but some have already been made and I'm too lazy to make the others.

 

Thing is, you say people ignore the Warrior's conquests but I think a lot more ignore the Inquisitor's and really the difference between them. The warrior is the dark combat master. We get that. The Inquisitor isn't about combat. He's about sorcery and rituals and mastering dark forces beyond the every day. And that's what he does. The Warrior may take out Jedi and Sith Masters here and there. The Inquisitor binds ghosts. Personally I think that's more impressive. And like I've been saying, given what sorcery can do vs what combat might can do, other things being equal the former is more deadly and destructive.

 

Thanaton wasn't Nox's greatest threat. The ghosts were. The greatest displays of power in the SI storyline weren't from Thanaton. It was the ghosts out of control at the end of Chapter 2 and Nox's complete mastery of them (and subsequent Thanaton domination) at the end of Chapter 3.

 

 

SW encourages Ekkage to kill the lord, Ekkage openly approves, then after that lord took out his lightsaber to defend, Ekkage stomps him with pure lighting power.

 

I think you are downplaying SW against facts presented in the game in this and Voice of the emperor's case.

That depends on the conversation options you take. If you pick remain silent all the way through she kills him on her own. And all Sith Lords are not created equal. I can agree Ekkage is powerful. But I don't think the ability to roflstomp all lords follows from her killing one lord we know nothing about.

[Rhyltran]

Don't feel like digging the book out but from what I remember it was described as a dark mist with tendrils streaking out. So it seems like it would progressively cover more and more area and not just be one or two tentacles you can sidestep. Also since they're made of pure dark side I would imagine lightning or any other dark side attack would just get absorbed. Direct kinetic attacks might work unless Zannah was able to resist them via basic shielding. Which also speaks to your Warrior vs Sorcerer tendril hypothetical. I don't think direct telekinetic attacks are blockable by tendrils unless you're saying telekinesis used by Sith is inherently darkside (and thus different from that of Jedi) which I don't believe. Nox would have to resist those the old fashioned way, which we have to assume he can do otherwise it really doesn't matter what sorcery he brings to bear unless he's able to strike first. Throwing things I would assume would be out since the tendrils are said to annihilate all matter they touch.

 

As for Palpatine, curbstomping was never his style (in the movies at least). He always played as being more feeble than he really was, probably to toy with them or in the specific cases of the movies to lure relevant Skywalkers to their fall. And in the battle with Yoda he clearly didn't need it. It might also be argued that pure dark side attacks can be countered with pure light side attacks and Yoda might well have had one up his sleeve. I'm not suggesting tendrils can be whipped up as the "I win" card on a whim. It's probably quite costly and if it's not necessary or if there's a chance they'll fail it's best to pick something else. But going back to the warrior we're working with canon assumptions right? That would preclude light side counters.

 

I only mentioned the orbalisks because they made Bane pretty much unstoppable in combat, allowed him to heal almost anything, bolstered his Force powers way beyond sane levels when in combat rage and fed on dark side energy. They weakened him overall but in combat they made him the ultimate expression of a dark side Warrior. But even that would've failed against the tendrils.

 

The warrior needs special knowledge to counter it because sorcery is fundamentally special knowledge. It's not so much what Nox can specifically do or has been seen doing, it's just the nature of the thing. By that same token I have admitted a few paragraphs ago that if Nox can't resist the Wrath's physical attacks or if the Wrath simply rips through them (Bane provides yet another example when he ripped through that one apprentice's defenses in the dueling circle on Korriban and killed him) he can still lose before he has time to do his spells. But that ironically goes against one of our assumptions that they're equal in power level.

 

 

 

Facts? You mean like how the Emperor wanted to get struck down and escape and how he specifically said "I will lower my defenses" in order for the Wrath to strike? Or how about how the Emperor and Sel-Makor were constantly locked in a stalemate with the Emperor unable to leave/kill himself and Sel-Makor unable to fully consume/transform him? Them's the facts. Ready for some logic? If the Emperor wanted to die and Sel-Makor wanted to possess him and destroy the one thing that could grant the Emperor's wish what would be the logical thing for the Emperor to do? Resist possession. A house divided cannot stand. An avatar of Sel-Makor is powerful. The Emperor's Voice is powerful. The two having an internal battle of wills while a warrior hacks at them is not. Now what was that about assumptions?

 

The shielding techniques you refer to are basic protection against physical Force attacks. A Force user vs a regular dude doesn't even need his lightsaber or crazy sorcery. He can just snap the guy's neck. Your "shields" are a basic technique everybody learns to keep that from happening. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

The tendrils weren't covering more and more area. Also when I talk about Palpatine he did go all out against Luke Skywalker when he returned in a younger clone body. You also didn't address my point near the end which was "What powers has Nox displayed that can't be dodged, avoided, etc?" She was controlling the Tendrils and she even drew them back at a point in order to prepare for another assault. She was directing them. The tendrils themselves had a mist like form. It wasn't spreading like a fog. Plus there's a limit..

"That left him with one option - Kill Zannah before the tentacles killed him. He unleashed another blast at his apprentice. She caught the incoming bolts with her Lightsaber, rendering them harmless. But her reactions were a fraction slower than normal, and Bane knew it was more than just her injured ribs. The effort to keep the Tendrils animated was pushing Zannah's ability to draw the force to their very limits, leaving her vulnerable in other areas. Lightsaber in hand, Bane charged her. The tendrils flew to intercept him but he ducked, jumped, and dodged weaving his way under, around, and over as he bore down on Zannah.

 

She brought her lightsaber up to defend against his attack, but without the full power of the force behind them her movements were clumsy and awkward. She parried the blow but didn't react fast enough as bane dropped down and took her legs out from under her with a sweep of his leg. As she fell he twisted the handle of his lightsaber so that his blade would catch hers, wrenching the hilt from her grasp and sending it flying."

Note that he was able to do all of that (avoid the Tendrils, sweep her leg out from under her, and disarm her) because she was a FRACTION slower than normal. That's how much "Power" matters in the star wars universe. This is page 299 of Darth Bane Dynasty of evil. The gap between the sorcerer's saber skill and Wrath's saber play means in the same situation Nox would have been killed. Though, I'm not saying it would have ended up in the same situation.

 

From there Bane went to finish her off only to get his arm severed but this goes to show the tendrils can be dodged. They can be avoided. If Bane had more patience (which he completely lost after the obelisks) he could have just avoided them until she ran out of energy. It made it clear she was getting weaker and we only see this from bane's perspective. It's possible she was just as close to losing as he was and even then he was quick enough to bring her down. Let's not forget that while Zannah specializes in sorcery she's amazing with a lightsaber. She's a combination of the Sith Assassin and Sith Sorcerer. Even so the Tendrils were not unbeatable. If Bane was quicker or even more skilled than he already was with his lightsaber he could have killed her before losing his arm.

 

The Warrior has more abilities at his disposal in the upcoming update that no other "Warriors" have shown in history which shows a greater mastery of the dark side than has been seen so far among his arsenal. I also forgot about the warrior's force scream but now he has "Raging Blast" and "Destructive Wave." My telekinetic argument wasn't that Zannah could absorb telekinetic attacks. It's quite the opposite. Force push either have to be completely avoided, blocked by another force push, or shielded through the force. Her force shielding won't matter if someone is on the same level as her.

 

It's always been shown when a combatant is equal and someone uses force push against them it effects them. A good example what happens between two people of equal power is Obi Wan Kenobi Vs Anakin Skywalker. They go to force push each other, strain, and end up both flying backwards. I keep saying over and over the main reason her tendrils appeared unbeatable is for one simple fact.. she was more powerful than Bane. You can't claim that the warrior, not having much knowledge in sith sorcery, would simply lose. Bane didn't really have any knowledge in Sith Sorcery and barely lost out in his duel with Zannah even against the Tendrils.

 

So I will still say "Equal."

Edited November 23, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Eidolooon]

Facts? You mean like how the Emperor wanted

 

yeah he wanted then got possesed. again ure wrong. cant see the point talking to you if you're always trying to be right instead actually accepting you are not at some point.

[CrutchCricket]

Note that he was able to do all of that (avoid the Tendrils, sweep her leg out from under her, and disarm her) because she was a FRACTION slower than normal. That's how much "Power" matters in the star wars universe. This is page 299 of Darth Bane Dynasty of evil. The gap between the sorcerer's saber skill and Wrath's saber play means in the same situation Nox would have been killed. Though, I'm not saying it would have ended up in the same situation.[/b]

 

From there Bane went to finish her off only to get his arm severed but this goes to show the tendrils can be dodged. They can be avoided. If Bane had more patience (which he completely lost after the obelisks) he could have just avoided them until she ran out of energy. It made it clear she was getting weaker and we only see this from bane's perspective. It's possible she was just as close to losing as he was and even then he was quick enough to bring her down. Let's not forget that while Zannah specializes in sorcery she's amazing with a lightsaber. She's a combination of the Sith Assassin and Sith Sorcerer. Even so the Tendrils were not unbeatable. If Bane was quicker or even more skilled than he already was with his lightsaber he could have killed her before losing his arm.

You could look at it that way. But I think any flaw in the tendrils there were on the use (i.e. on Zannah), not on the ability itself. The tendrils themselves are untouchable (though I admit I remembered their spread wrong and they are physically avoidable). The mistake was giving Bane an opening. If she had drawn them around herself without leaving gaps for Bane to physically come through, then advanced on him it might've been a different story. But ironically we're now talking about the use of a pure sorcery ability in very physical terms. She simply overreached. Contrast Bane earlier in the book using a deathfield type power in a sphere around him instantly withering all assailants that tried to approach him. Something that belies your claim that Bane didn't know anything about sorcery. He had no special affinity for it and he tells Zannah "My strengths like elsewhere, my ability to instruct you in this will be limited". Limited. But not nonexistent.

 

Going back to the cost of the tendrils, it makes sense that physically manifesting pure dark side energy isn't easy and can't be done for long, but still I wonder if being a fraction slower would've been noticeable had she been fresh and uninjured. Training and practice would also be a factor. There's no reason to believe Zannah needed to use the tendrils before and I imagine simply summoning them isn't the same as using them in battle.

 

The Warrior has more abilities at his disposal in the upcoming update that no other "Warriors" have shown in history which shows a greater mastery of the dark side than has been seen so far among his arsenal. I also forgot about the warrior's force scream but now he has "Raging Blast" and "Destructive Wave." My telekinetic argument wasn't that Zannah could absorb telekinetic attacks. It's quite the opposite. Force push either have to be completely avoided, blocked by another force push, or shielded through the force. Her force shielding won't matter if someone is on the same level as her.

 

It's always been shown when a combatant is equal and someone uses force push against them it effects them. A good example what happens between two people of equal power is Obi Wan Kenobi Vs Anakin Skywalker. They go to force push each other, strain, and end up both flying backwards. I keep saying over and over the main reason her tendrils appeared unbeatable is for one simple fact.. she was more powerful than Bane. You can't claim that the warrior, not having much knowledge in sith sorcery, would simply lose. Bane didn't really have any knowledge in Sith Sorcery and barely lost out in his duel with Zannah even against the Tendrils.

So I will still say "Equal."

Well in terms of telekinesis, Nox isn't much of a slouch. Even though we can't use it much in game (short of Overload that is) he throws Thanaton around the room pretty easily once he beats him and even blocks his lightsaber barehanded, before forcing him to kneel. So while his lightsaber skills may be lacking I think he has enough power to resist telekinetic attacks. If he then employes some sorcery that does not give the Wrath the chance to physically avoid them he stands a good chance of winning.

 

I don't claim Nox will win automatically or win every time, and if that came across before perhaps I misspoke. But there are gaps in both Sith's defenses that are pretty critical weakspots. Lack of lightsaber combat proficiency is the Inquisitor's. Lack of knowledge/defense tactics against sorcery is the Warriors. And I happen to think the latter is more problematic. Ultimately if they did fight it might very well go to who struck first.

[CrutchCricket]

yeah he wanted then got possesed. again ure wrong. cant see the point talking to you if you're always trying to be right instead actually accepting you are not at some point.

And we all know the Emperor's a chump who can't do anything once he gets "possessed" right? Not like he's nigh-immortal, has a millennia of experience with possession or a will that has only been broken by a handful of people...

 

Or maybe fighting possession just isn't a thing and can't be done ever, right? Like the Knight, Kira, the First Son Khem Val none of these people fought possession and in some cases won. Nope. I'm just wrong about all that.

 

Whatever you say...

[Rhyltran]

You could look at it that way. But I think any flaw in the tendrils there were on the use (i.e. on Zannah), not on the ability itself. The tendrils themselves are untouchable (though I admit I remembered their spread wrong and they are physically avoidable). The mistake was giving Bane an opening. If she had drawn them around herself without leaving gaps for Bane to physically come through, then advanced on him it might've been a different story. But ironically we're now talking about the use of a pure sorcery ability in very physical terms. She simply overreached. Contrast Bane earlier in the book using a deathfield type power in a sphere around him instantly withering all assailants that tried to approach him. Something that belies your claim that Bane didn't know anything about sorcery. He had no special affinity for it and he tells Zannah "My strengths like elsewhere, my ability to instruct you in this will be limited". Limited. But not nonexistent.

 

Going back to the cost of the tendrils, it makes sense that physically manifesting pure dark side energy isn't easy and can't be done for long, but still I wonder if being a fraction slower would've been noticeable had she been fresh and uninjured. Training and practice would also be a factor. There's no reason to believe Zannah needed to use the tendrils before and I imagine simply summoning them isn't the same as using them in battle.

 

 

Well in terms of telekinesis, Nox isn't much of a slouch. Even though we can't use it much in game (short of Overload that is) he throws Thanaton around the room pretty easily once he beats him and even blocks his lightsaber barehanded, before forcing him to kneel. So while his lightsaber skills may be lacking I think he has enough power to resist telekinetic attacks. If he then employes some sorcery that does not give the Wrath the chance to physically avoid them he stands a good chance of winning.

 

I don't claim Nox will win automatically or win every time, and if that came across before perhaps I misspoke. But there are gaps in both Sith's defenses that are pretty critical weakspots. Lack of lightsaber combat proficiency is the Inquisitor's. Lack of knowledge/defense tactics against sorcery is the Warriors. And I happen to think the latter is more problematic. Ultimately if they did fight it might very well go to who struck first.

 

The main problem I have with your argument is that Nox hasn't displayed any Sorcery powers that the Sith Warrior would have needed to study before in order to counter/avoid. Everything he has ever shown in cut scenes and attacks can be avoided, dodged, etc. Also Zannath did draw the tendrils to herself. The book doesn't specify how many she summoned. She "Drew them back to prepare for her next assault." and Bane charged her before she assaulted him. They were already drawn back to defend herself. She had already gone on the offensive with them and that's not when Bane charged her.

 

The book didn't say how many there were exactly or how long/big they were but apparently they were avoidable. As for my telekinetic argument? I don't think you're fully following. I never said Nox is stronger or weaker than the warrior at it. I'm talking about..

 

If the warrior fought Zannah and Zannah used the Tendrils to defend herself all the warrior would have to do is use force push to get her to lose concentration. Zannah, being attacked by Force Push, would only be left with one means to defend herself in this regard. If she is stronger than the warrior she can cloak herself in the force and stand her ground. If she is NOT stronger than the warrior she gets out of the way or uses force push to block his own. The two end up in a force push struggle and both end up flying backwards. Either way her Tendril move is cancelled.

 

But this doesn't matter. My point is Nox does not have any attack that must require sorcery to counter/avoid. He has nothing like Zannah's Tendril move and is even weaker in saber combat than Zannah is. My argument is there literally is no clear edge to either of them. It's equal and some of the warriors new moves come very in line with "Sorcery" attacks. The warrior can now channel attacks that are created purely from dark side energy and release them. Such as "Dark Blasts" of energy and Dark Waves of energy that can inflict physical damage.

[VitalityPrime]

I think it really just comes down to personal opinion.

 

I don't think there is any true canon on which is more powerful...it's just how you want to see it.

 

For me, for my personal canon...I see the Inquisitor as being more powerful...and probably the most powerful of all classes.

 

I think the Knight and Warrior are right there with the Inquisitor...and I do think that any of those three could beat each other. However, for pure, raw, power...I think the Inquisitor takes that.

 

Again, that is all just my opinion on how I view them...it's not meant for debate.

[Eidolooon]

I think it really just comes down to personal opinion.

 

I don't think there is any true canon on which is more powerful...it's just how you want to see it.

 

For me, for my personal canon...I see the Inquisitor as being more powerful...and probably the most powerful of all classes.

 

I think the Knight and Warrior are right there with the Inquisitor...and I do think that any of those three could beat each other. However, for pure, raw, power...I think the Inquisitor takes that.

 

Again, that is all just my opinion on how I view them...it's not meant for debate.

 

probably this topic should end here, we shouldnt spill blood over two greatest siths of their time

[CrutchCricket]

The main problem I have with your argument is that Nox hasn't displayed any Sorcery powers that the Sith Warrior would have needed to study before in order to counter/avoid. Everything he has ever shown in cut scenes and attacks can be avoided, dodged, etc. Also Zannath did draw the tendrils to herself. The book doesn't specify how many she summoned. She "Drew them back to prepare for her next assault." and Bane charged her before she assaulted him. They were already drawn back to defend herself. She had already gone on the offensive with them and that's not when Bane charged her.

 

The book didn't say how many there were exactly or how long/big they were but apparently they were avoidable. As for my telekinetic argument? I don't think you're fully following. I never said Nox is stronger or weaker than the warrior at it. I'm talking about..

 

If the warrior fought Zannah and Zannah used the Tendrils to defend herself all the warrior would have to do is use force push to get her to lose concentration. Zannah, being attacked by Force Push, would only be left with one means to defend herself in this regard. If she is stronger than the warrior she can cloak herself in the force and stand her ground. If she is NOT stronger than the warrior she gets out of the way or uses force push to block his own. The two end up in a force push struggle and both end up flying backwards. Either way her Tendril move is cancelled.

 

But this doesn't matter. My point is Nox does not have any attack that must require sorcery to counter/avoid. He has nothing like Zannah's Tendril move and is even weaker in saber combat than Zannah is. My argument is there literally is no clear edge to either of them. It's equal and some of the warriors new moves come very in line with "Sorcery" attacks. The warrior can now channel attacks that are created purely from dark side energy and release them. Such as "Dark Blasts" of energy and Dark Waves of energy that can inflict physical damage.

She may have drawn them back but if there were gaps for Bane to slip through, it wasn't enough. She overextended with them and did not/could not cover herself back up when Bane rushed her. I think we're going on too much about the tendrils. My stance on them is this: they're a powerful weapon with no real fundamental physical counter but because they manifest as a physical attack their use has all the potential failures of other physical attacks (missing, overreaching, leaving gaps etc). Though as an aside I don't think that's right. You're using the Force to literally summon pure dark side energy and move it around with your mind. I don't think it should be slow or mist like. It should be more akin to a black shadow that moves at the speed of thought. If you stare at and concentrate on spot x to create it then shift your gaze to stare and concentrate on spot y, that takes milliseconds. That's how fast it should be moving. Even with the highest Force enhanced reflexes the entire body of a Sith Lord shouldn't be able to match that. But oh well. Karphyshyn wrote it, he got the money, he made it canon (until the DisneyNuke in any case).

 

As for telekinesis I get what you're saying but I'm not even sure that would break concentration. Zannah was still able to block lightsaber blows while concentrating on the tendrils even if she was "a fraction slower". Unless you think resisting or using telekinesis is orders of magnitude more strenuous and concentration-heavy than lightsaber combat in all cases, which I kind of doubt. And even if Zannah/Nox/the tendril user allows themselves to be knocked back but uses just enough Force to avoid kinetic damage from the throw while still managing to maintain eye contact with the target and relevant concentration, the tendrils would still be in play. Indeed it might even work as a feint.

 

Otherwise my point remains that Nox not showing any higher sorcery powers ingame is irrelevant. As is the Warrior not showing rudimentary anti-sorcery defense or even more advanced lightsaber techniques. As the Emperor's Wrath and a martial specialist I would expect him to master all lightsaber forms, learn at least some basic Force lightning, enhance his telekinesis even more and be able to use all of those skills and switch between them seamlessly until nothing could stand against him. We don't see any of that in game but I assume it's what will happen at some point. The same with Nox learning more and more crazy sorcery rituals and spells. My point is the progression of the latter makes him a far greater person of mass destruction then that of the former. You want to say that at time of last logoff they're equal, based solely on what we see in the game, sure. What I'm saying is down the road, even assuming equal power and equal rate of acquisition of new skills, the sorcerer should should have things the warrior can do nothing against, and thus have the edge. Does that mean he auto-wins? No. The warrior may strike first and win, he may be able to resist long enough to strike and win, etc. So many things could happen. But sorcery itself has the edge because it's so out of left field to everything else (except its light side counterpart)

[CrutchCricket]

probably this topic should end here, we shouldnt spill blood over two greatest siths of their time

 

But... spilling blood is what Sith do...

[Rhyltran]

 

What I'm saying is down the road, even assuming equal power and equal rate of acquisition of new skills, the sorcerer should should have things the warrior can do nothing against

 

Except there is no such attack that exists where the warrior literally could do nothing against. As for the force push? It's not about "Letting himself" get thrown back. It can't be helped. If a user force pushes another user they have two options. Struggle against it with their own or completely avoid it entirely (moving out of the way of the person's hand as they go to push.). Assuming equal power between the two users blocking the force push is going to result in both the attacker and defender getting launched off their feet.

 

Also the last thing I'm going to say about Zannah? The tendrils concentration didn't just make her a fraction slower. Her attempt to block was considered slow and clumsy. Clumsy being a keyword here. Her ability to defend herself with a lightsaber was greatly diminished. She was slower in responding with the Tendrils due to getting tired. The tendrils were becoming slower. This allowed Bane to dodge them and get close. It creates a massive strain to use the technique. So if someone who isn't straining themselves used force push with all of their strength vs her she's going to lose out in the exchange simply because she's over extending herself mentally.

 

Also when comparing two characters it's always best to compare them both in terms of strength and feats off what we know for sure. So when comparing Nox and the Warrior we have to compare them based off what they've displayed in-game both in accomplishments and powers. In either case both are equal.

 

You keep talking like someone can use their own force push to negate their opponents and that's that moving on. It doesn't work that way. See Episode 3 revenge of the Sith in the duel between Obi Wan and Anakin. They were very clearly struggling to overpower each other with Force Push neither of them winning out. They were even shaking as they were performing it showing how much strain/effort they were putting into it. If one combatant (in terms of equal power) puts in less effort than their opponent they will lose the exchange.

 

Let's look at it in another light. Windu doesn't have much "Esoteric" knowledge of the force. That being said, he would destroy almost any Sith/Jedi regardless of the era. Sorcerer/Consular included. Heck, he'd occasionally even fight Yoda to a draw. The same goes for Dooku.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Yezzan]

Not sure why we are assuming that Nox was not proficient with a lightsaber. Game mechanics make him more sorcerer than "warrior:. But as I said, some things can be inferred from the dialogue, and missions that he was tasked with.

 

First of all, he defeated the Dashade.Don't think I need to mention the whole force-resistant, force-devoring monstrocity. Nox defeated him with light saber skills.

 

Then there was Lord Palladius. Nox could not rely on sorcery so he had to use saber skills to defeat Palladius.

 

 

FInally, we should remember that almost everyone on Korriban avoided the Dashade and Harkkun specifically sent Nox there because he new he would fail. He also used pure Teleknesis to stop Thanton's light saber attack and force him to his knees.

[Rhyltran]

Not sure why we are assuming that Nox was not proficient with a lightsaber. Game mechanics make him more sorcerer than "warrior:. But as I said, some things can be inferred from the dialogue, and missions that he was tasked with.

 

First of all, he defeated the Dashade.Don't think I need to mention the whole force-resistant, force-devoring monstrocity. Nox defeated him with light saber skills.

 

Then there was Lord Palladius. Nox could not rely on sorcery so he had to use saber skills to defeat Palladius.

 

 

FInally, we should remember that almost everyone on Korriban avoided the Dashade and Harkkun specifically sent Nox there because he new he would fail. He also used pure Teleknesis to stop Thanton's light saber attack and force him to his knees.

 

The last part of your post proves contrary to what you were claiming. Also Khem is resistant to force techniques. Not immune. That's a testament to how powerful Nox is. He dominated a force resistant Dashade by drawing on the pure power of the force. Paladius ability did not stop one from using the force. If you're strong enough you can bypass it. Darth Cognus displayed the same ability. Set Harth, when trying to draw on the force around her, felt like he got slugged in the gut and felt like he couldn't breathe. However, with great effort he could still use the force. It was just difficult.

 

Sidious was able to use this same ability to weaken Jedi's connection to the force to make them more vulnerable however the strongest of Jedi weren't as effected much. Don't forget that Sith/Jedi draw on their power of the force when fighting in lightsaber comat. If he was truly incapable of using the force Paladius would have destroyed Nox. Even if he was a skilled duelist. No, none of these are evidence that Nox was a proficient duelist.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Rhyltran

[ThirdDementor]

While I still believe the Inquisitor is a bit stronger due to the ghosts, some things said in favor of the Inquisitor and in detriment of the Wrath are just silly.

 

The Inquisitor is not an assassin that could rival the Warrior in lightsaber combat. Insisting otherwise because your Inquisitor went assassin is just like saying "that guy is not Revan because my Revan was female". Look at the cutscenes. Lightning, lightning, rituals, and more lightning. You don't see the Inquisitor besting anyone in lightsaber combat. The Inquisitor only uses the lightsaber in order to execute already incapacitated or unresisting opponents, and even then the dual saber animations are bugged (the blade itself turned off during some executions). Lorewise, the Inquisitor is 110% Sorcerer. Not a lightsaber duelist - a mage.

 

"The Warrior needed help to defeat Vengean." Says who? Draahg and Baras, two people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they have no idea what the Warrior is truly capable of.

 

"The Wrath needed help to defeat Ekkage." Again, same deal. Help isn't needed - help is forcing itself. Timmns insists "it really will take the both of us". So he's a Jedi who underestimates the Warrior. How many of those have we met throughout the story? Yeah.

Edited November 25, 2014 by ThirdDementor

[Frenesi]

Problem is, Nox relies either on lightning or mind manipulation to kill enemy. First can be reflected by lightsaber (), second can be resisted/endured. His saber skills, even as assassin, aren't that good. And no, we haven't seen any serious sith sorcery performed by him. May be he will learn something when he gets older. But not now.

 

Wrath, on the other hand, is one of best saber duelists AND extremely powerful, if passive, force user. Also he fights in berserk mode, which makes him much harder to kill (both AC have pain ignore themed DCD). He can resist Nox force attacks all the way till the close range - and then it's game over for Nox.

[CrutchCricket]

Except there is no such attack that exists where the warrior literally could do nothing against.

Well there's something called Force Net which is kind of like the tendrils only not as destructive, that ensnares the target, severs their connection to the Force and constantly saps/constricts them until death. It looks like you could resist being trapped but once ensnared you're out of luck. Also take your pick from anything dealing with mind control, perception altering and/or illusions. Am I saying any of these are absolutely impossible to resist and thus unbeatable? Not at all. But their element of surprise alone gives the sorcerer the edge. Edge=/=guaranteed victory.

 

Hell take Zannah's version of Summon Fear. Yes it takes time to invoke and time to work. But once it takes hold you're done. Now I know Bane resisted it but it's clearly stated he did so because he had "already conquered his fears". That's neither strength of will nor sorcery-specific knowledge. But it is a fairly specific prerequisite I'm not at all certain automatically applies to the Warrior (or would always apply in the general case). What if the Warrior hasn't conquered his fears? He's highborn, he's been given preferential treatment all his life and had no real failures during his Sith career. What if there are unresolved issue there? This is more along the lines of where my argument begins. Sorcery goes beyond the everyday things most beings deal with and have a fundamental understanding of. Some things you just can't brute force through, especially in an environment where force means nothing. At the very least, for some things you need to know how to apply force and resist.

 

As for the force push? It's not about "Letting himself" get thrown back. It can't be helped. If a user force pushes another user they have two options. Struggle against it with their own or completely avoid it entirely (moving out of the way of the person's hand as they go to push.). Assuming equal power between the two users blocking the force push is going to result in both the attacker and defender getting launched off their feet.

 

Also the last thing I'm going to say about Zannah? The tendrils concentration didn't just make her a fraction slower. Her attempt to block was considered slow and clumsy. Clumsy being a keyword here. Her ability to defend herself with a lightsaber was greatly diminished. She was slower in responding with the Tendrils due to getting tired. The tendrils were becoming slower. This allowed Bane to dodge them and get close. It creates a massive strain to use the technique. So if someone who isn't straining themselves used force push with all of their strength vs her she's going to lose out in the exchange simply because she's over extending herself mentally.

If you can't resist a force you either redirect it or mitigate it. That's where I was going with it. If you can't resist it or it would cost too much to do so, roll with the blow. Shield yourself so the force of the blow or the landing doesn't break anything and keep going. Especially since something like the tendrils are a mostly all-out all or nothing attack what's more important, staying on your feet or maintaining the attack (or perhaps pulling them back for defense)?

 

Again, even if Zannah's lightsaber defense had been completely neutralized by her use of the tendrils, it wouldn't have mattered if she had tightened her defense more than she did (or not extended as far to begin with)

 

Also when comparing two characters it's always best to compare them both in terms of strength and feats off what we know for sure. So when comparing Nox and the Warrior we have to compare them based off what they've displayed in-game both in accomplishments and powers. In either case both are equal.

 

You keep talking like someone can use their own force push to negate their opponents and that's that moving on. It doesn't work that way. See Episode 3 revenge of the Sith in the duel between Obi Wan and Anakin. They were very clearly struggling to overpower each other with Force Push neither of them winning out. They were even shaking as they were performing it showing how much strain/effort they were putting into it. If one combatant (in terms of equal power) puts in less effort than their opponent they will lose the exchange.

 

Let's look at it in another light. Windu doesn't have much "Esoteric" knowledge of the force. That being said, he would destroy almost any Sith/Jedi regardless of the era. Sorcerer/Consular included. Heck, he'd occasionally even fight Yoda to a draw. The same goes for Dooku.

Taking what we see from the characters and logically applying other facts of the universe is just as valid, especially when their character/story is specifically implied to continue and develop, as in this game.

 

Obi-wan and Anakin were specifically pushing against each other. It went beyond simply resisting forces, they were actively trying to overpower each other. That does not preclude absorption (harder to conceptualize) or redirection. That's like saying redirecting a punch is impossible because you witnessed an arm wrestling match.

 

Windu might've been a special case with his Vaapad style specifically stated to reflect his attacker's darkness right back at them. Not a conclusive case anyway since there were no sorcerers in his time apart from maybe Palpatine (I say maybe because we don't know when he researched sorcery, it might've been post Order 66, Plagueis' rituals notwithstanding) who didn't use any sorcery against him. Also there aren't any real light side counterparts to sorcery apart from pure manifestations of the light which wouldn't do anything against Jedi. The worst thing a Jedi can do is Sever Force. Which if Yoda had done for some reason, would've left Mace helpless.

[Rhyltran]

Well there's something called Force Net which is kind of like the tendrils only not as destructive, that ensnares the target, severs their connection to the Force and constantly saps/constricts them until death. It looks like you could resist being trapped but once ensnared you're out of luck. Also take your pick from anything dealing with mind control, perception altering and/or illusions. Am I saying any of these are absolutely impossible to resist and thus unbeatable? Not at all. But their element of surprise alone gives the sorcerer the edge. Edge=/=guaranteed victory..

 

The warrior can alter minds as well. You do get force persuade options. You're really reaching with Zannah. She pulled them back and went to defend herself when Bane approached. There was no overreaching. She was trying to prevent Bane from getting close for obvious reasons. If she raised them and just kept them close to her that might have been bad considering his lightsaber passed through them. Sure, it wouldn't hurt the tendrils, but he could strike through them and at her. It doesn't matter you keep saying "If she did this.." she didn't. It's a perfect example showing that they can be beaten. Bane didn't use sorcery to combat them and he didn't need to draw on any knowledge of sorcery in order to deal with them.

 

He had never seen it before and used exactly what the Warrior is capable of doing in order to deal with it. Dodging, ducking, and weaving. You can't say "We don't know about the sorcerer progressing.." this argument is about here and now. If Nox currently fought Wrath who is stronger? Nothing Nox has shown would require sorcery to counter. Absolutely nothing. Sidious already learned everything from his master before killing him. There's actual quotes that state as much. Sidious knew "Sith Sorcerery" and even "Sith Alchemy" before he fought Yoda. The highest level of sorcery displayed was his ability to create a force storm which destroyed entire starfleets but guess what?

 

Even this was re-directed by Luke Skywalker who had no knowledge of Sith Sorcery and at the time only had his raw power, speed, and saber training. He wasn't a master of the force at the time nor did he have the esoteric abilities he displayed later. He simply used his own power to re-direct it back at Palpatine destroying one of his many clone bodies.

 

I'm sorry but your posts are starting to come off as incredibly biased because at this point you're reaching. You're taking "Possibly in the future" as a basis for your argument. My way of comparing them based on what we know isn't just "A valid way of comparing" it's the best way of comparing them. In any kind of debate or comparison you have to go by the facts. The facts are Nox has not displayed ANYTHING that can't be countered or avoided. Nothing that the warrior would be at a disadvantage at simply because he's not a sorcerer. There's nothing here.

 

The force push isn't the only example and yes they were pushing against each other. Have you seen a character of equal power going all out with a force push and the other just trying to defend it? Let's look at Yoda. Yoda used force absorption in order to Absorb Sidious' lightning. In the force they were almost a match. What was the result? They both ended up blasted over the edge. In any of these power struggles between two relatively equal force powers it ends up in the same result. This has been shown over and over. If you want to keep debating this I'll keep providing other examples in lore. There's plenty.

 

There would be no option to maintain the attack. You said, what's more important, staying on your feet or maintaining the attack? There is no option here. You put your entire concentration into blocking the attack which would cause you to lose focus those.. no longer be able to maintain the attack or get blasted off your feet which provide the same result. Problem is as I mentioned, Zannah was stronger than bane. That was the point of the rule of two. You find an apprentice with more potential than yourself. You train said apprentice in everything you know. They learn everything you have to offer, develop their own abilities, and then kill you.

 

There's no evidence that Nox has an edge over the warrior in terms of force potential. Does he know more force techniques? Absolutely. The warrior is also a far superior duelist. This is a net advantage. You say Nox has an edge but any example you provide can also be matched by the warrior and the warrior is far more knowledgeable in the force than most warriors in the past. Most warriors in the past? Mostly martial. We got one who has force scream and can release destructive blasts of pure force energy that AREN'T telekinetic. They're pure balls of energy composed of the dark side.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Tyrloch]

"The Warrior needed help to defeat Vengean." Says who? Draahg and Baras, two people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they have no idea what the Warrior is truly capable of.

 

"The Wrath needed help to defeat Ekkage." Again, same deal. Help isn't needed - help is forcing itself. Timmns insists "it really will take the both of us". So he's a Jedi who underestimates the Warrior. How many of those have we met throughout the story? Yeah.

 

The Wrath didn't need Timmns help any more than he needed Draahg's. At one point Draahg (who the Wrath defeats later) admits that during the fight with Vengean he held back. so that the Wrath wouldn't see how powerful he was. So, the Wrath pretty much took out Vengean alone, Draahg was a decoy.

[Darkelefantos]

The Wrath didn't need Timmns help any more than he needed Draahg's. At one point Draahg (who the Wrath defeats later) admits that during the fight with Vengean he held back. so that the Wrath wouldn't see how powerful he was. So, the Wrath pretty much took out Vengean alone, Draahg was a decoy.

Vengean also puts Draahg into a never-ending Force Choke at some point during the fight.

[CrutchCricket]

The warrior can alter minds as well. You do get force persuade options. You're really reaching with Zannah. She pulled them back and went to defend herself when Bane approached. There was no overreaching. She was trying to prevent Bane from getting close for obvious reasons. If she raised them and just kept them close to her that might have been bad considering his lightsaber passed through them. Sure, it wouldn't hurt the tendrils, but he could strike through them and at her. It doesn't matter you keep saying "If she did this.." she didn't. It's a perfect example showing that they can be beaten. Bane didn't use sorcery to combat them and he didn't need to draw on any knowledge of sorcery in order to deal with them.

Force Persuade is the simple mind trick of Obi-wan fame that even non-Star Wars fans know works only on the weak minded. Not even remotely the same thing. The bounty hunter and smuggler I think can even mock NPCs who try it against them. As for the tendrils, that is not proof they can be beaten. That is proof Zannah can be beaten (even though she ultimately won). The fault was hers, not the ability and it almost cost her the fight. If I have an adamantium shield that absolutely nothing can get past but I leave myself exposed and something strikes me how is that the shield's fault?

 

He had never seen it before and used exactly what the Warrior is capable of doing in order to deal with it. Dodging, ducking, and weaving. You can't say "We don't know about the sorcerer progressing.." this argument is about here and now. If Nox currently fought Wrath who is stronger? Nothing Nox has shown would require sorcery to counter. Absolutely nothing. Sidious already learned everything from his master before killing him. There's actual quotes that state as much. Sidious knew "Sith Sorcerery" and even "Sith Alchemy" before he fought Yoda. The highest level of sorcery displayed was his ability to create a force storm which destroyed entire starfleets but guess what?

 

Even this was re-directed by Luke Skywalker who had no knowledge of Sith Sorcery and at the time only had his raw power, speed, and saber training. He wasn't a master of the force at the time nor did he have the esoteric abilities he displayed later. He simply used his own power to re-direct it back at Palpatine destroying one of his many clone bodies.

Lightning being redirected is nothing new. And given its ubiquitousness among Sith I'm not even sure it qualifies as sorcery, even higher forms of it. I admit I'm not specifically familiar with Dark Empire but are you saying the exact same attack Palpatine used to rip entire ships apart was a) brought to bear on one man and b) said man then shrugged it off (even if it read something like 'he struggled to...' it's still ludicrous)? Maybe this is a reason 90s EU works that aren't Thrawn are looked down upon.

 

I'm sorry but your posts are starting to come off as incredibly biased because at this point you're reaching. You're taking "Possibly in the future" as a basis for your argument. My way of comparing them based on what we know isn't just "A valid way of comparing" it's the best way of comparing them. In any kind of debate or comparison you have to go by the facts. The facts are Nox has not displayed ANYTHING that can't be countered or avoided. Nothing that the warrior would be at a disadvantage at simply because he's not a sorcerer. There's nothing here.

Fact: Nox is a sorcerer (at least this is heavily suggested by the cutscenes/story, even if you picked assassin)

Fact: Sith Sorcery is partly defined as an affinity for the dark side itself and allows one to do things far beyond the scope of even regular Force Users.

Nox + Sorcery= an undefined but greater than zero chance of Nox using a technique that falls outside the scope of conventional Force defenses.

There is no reaching. I'm not pulling Force powers out of my *** here. I'm using lore and logic to go beyond Nox [DeathField] Wrath because this is a lore-based discussion. If anything you're becoming unresponsive by just insisting the Warrior can power through anything.

 

The force push isn't the only example and yes they were pushing against each other. Have you seen a character of equal power going all out with a force push and the other just trying to defend it? Let's look at Yoda. Yoda used force absorption in order to Absorb Sidious' lightning. In the force they were almost a match. What was the result? They both ended up blasted over the edge. In any of these power struggles between two relatively equal force powers it ends up in the same result. This has been shown over and over. If you want to keep debating this I'll keep providing other examples in lore. There's plenty.

Watch that scene again. They don't just go flying after x seconds have elapsed. Yoda closes the gap and releases the energy he's absorbed sending Sidious hurtling back. And because he couldn't also brace himself and physics he gets knocked back as well. Actually a similar thing happens in the Obi-wan/Anakin push contest as well. They don't just magically decide it's time to fly back at the same time. Their hands close the distance until they're almost touching and then the energy explodes. It seems like there's a tremendous amount of pressure getting generated in that small space and it can no longer be contained. It reaches critical mass for lack of a better term. Point is what you have here is a very specific set of circumstances Not, as you're implying the only way competing Force pushes can end. I know the Force is all magical but these cases boil down to very simple physics. And in physics, force can always be redirected.

 

What if instead of for the sake of drama, either Anakin or Obi-wan would've stopped pushing and spun out of the way? If they were physically pushing against each other their opponent would rush forward and be out of balance. You can argue that since they're pushing with their minds this won't happen but they do make the motions with their hands and as you can tell their hands do come forward as the push builds. So maybe a sudden lack of resistance would've resulted in some overreaching- a perfect opportunity for a counterattack.

 

You won't convince me every use of Force push must result in either success or one of these energy battles. Lore has nothing to do with it. As mystical as the Force is, telekinesis must still follow the laws of physics. And physics gives you options.

 

There would be no option to maintain the attack. You said, what's more important, staying on your feet or maintaining the attack? There is no option here. You put your entire concentration into blocking the attack which would cause you to lose focus those.. no longer be able to maintain the attack or get blasted off your feet which provide the same result. Problem is as I mentioned, Zannah was stronger than bane. That was the point of the rule of two. You find an apprentice with more potential than yourself. You train said apprentice in everything you know. They learn everything you have to offer, develop their own abilities, and then kill you.

 

There's no evidence that Nox has an edge over the warrior in terms of force potential. Does he know more force techniques? Absolutely. The warrior is also a far superior duelist. This is a net advantage. You say Nox has an edge but any example you provide can also be matched by the warrior and the warrior is far more knowledgeable in the force than most warriors in the past. Most warriors in the past? Mostly martial. We got one who has force scream and can release destructive blasts of pure force energy that AREN'T telekinetic. They're pure balls of energy composed of the dark side.

Who said you need your entire concentration? You might, if you try and overpower your opponent a la Anakin/Obi-wan. But using the Force to just protect yourself/cushion the blow is as basic a defense as you get. A seasoned Force user probably does it in their sleep. It's also using real life principles of rolling with the blow (a form of redirection really) to avoid damage with minimal cost to you. And given the instinctual (with training) nature of the shielding and the ability to maintain line of sight to your target why should getting knocked down interrupt the tendrils? It may work that way in game mechanics. But not in lore. And I never doubted Zannah was stronger. That's not what the tendril discussion was about. If someone is strong enough to make and sustain them in the first place there is no defense against them unless they make a mistake and leave an opening. Or they can't make enough of them to fully cover themselves or you can wait them out until they drop them. Either way you're not beating the tendrils. You're circumventing them. In a fight it doesn't matter as either way gets you the victory. It's an unbeatable attack but one that can still miss or be used incorrectly.

 

Nox doesn't have an apparent advantage in powerlevel. I can't say he or the Wrath are stronger than the other in the Force. I can say that sorcery gives Nox more options for offense and defense than mere martial strength or telekinesis gives the Wrath. And I can also say that a great deal of those options are more destructive and terrifying than brute force. By the way which powers specifically do you say the Warrior has that are not kinetic in nature? Force Scream isn't one, its description clearly indicates kinetic damage.