Emperor's Wrath vs Darth Nox, who is more powerful lore-wise?

[Rhyltran]

Force Persuade is the simple mind trick of Obi-wan fame that even non-Star Wars fans know works only on the weak minded. Not even remotely the same thing. The bounty hunter and smuggler I think can even mock NPCs who try it against them. As for the tendrils, that is not proof they can be beaten. That is proof Zannah can be beaten (even though she ultimately won). The fault was hers, not the ability and it almost cost her the fight. If I have an adamantium shield that absolutely nothing can get past but I leave myself exposed and something strikes me how is that the shield's fault?

 

 

Lightning being redirected is nothing new. And given its ubiquitousness among Sith I'm not even sure it qualifies as sorcery, even higher forms of it. I admit I'm not specifically familiar with Dark Empire but are you saying the exact same attack Palpatine used to rip entire ships apart was a) brought to bear on one man and b) said man then shrugged it off (even if it read something like 'he struggled to...' it's still ludicrous)? Maybe this is a reason 90s EU works that aren't Thrawn are looked down upon.

 

 

Fact: Nox is a sorcerer (at least this is heavily suggested by the cutscenes/story, even if you picked assassin)

Fact: Sith Sorcery is partly defined as an affinity for the dark side itself and allows one to do things far beyond the scope of even regular Force Users.

Nox + Sorcery= an undefined but greater than zero chance of Nox using a technique that falls outside the scope of conventional Force defenses.

There is no reaching. I'm not pulling Force powers out of my *** here. I'm using lore and logic to go beyond Nox [DeathField] Wrath because this is a lore-based discussion. If anything you're becoming unresponsive by just insisting the Warrior can power through anything.

 

 

Watch that scene again. They don't just go flying after x seconds have elapsed. Yoda closes the gap and releases the energy he's absorbed sending Sidious hurtling back. And because he couldn't also brace himself and physics he gets knocked back as well. Actually a similar thing happens in the Obi-wan/Anakin push contest as well. They don't just magically decide it's time to fly back at the same time. Their hands close the distance until they're almost touching and then the energy explodes. It seems like there's a tremendous amount of pressure getting generated in that small space and it can no longer be contained. It reaches critical mass for lack of a better term. Point is what you have here is a very specific set of circumstances Not, as you're implying the only way competing Force pushes can end. I know the Force is all magical but these cases boil down to very simple physics. And in physics, force can always be redirected.

 

What if instead of for the sake of drama, either Anakin or Obi-wan would've stopped pushing and spun out of the way? If they were physically pushing against each other their opponent would rush forward and be out of balance. You can argue that since they're pushing with their minds this won't happen but they do make the motions with their hands and as you can tell their hands do come forward as the push builds. So maybe a sudden lack of resistance would've resulted in some overreaching- a perfect opportunity for a counterattack.

 

You won't convince me every use of Force push must result in either success or one of these energy battles. Lore has nothing to do with it. As mystical as the Force is, telekinesis must still follow the laws of physics. And physics gives you options.

 

 

Who said you need your entire concentration? You might, if you try and overpower your opponent a la Anakin/Obi-wan. But using the Force to just protect yourself/cushion the blow is as basic a defense as you get. A seasoned Force user probably does it in their sleep. It's also using real life principles of rolling with the blow (a form of redirection really) to avoid damage with minimal cost to you. And given the instinctual (with training) nature of the shielding and the ability to maintain line of sight to your target why should getting knocked down interrupt the tendrils? It may work that way in game mechanics. But not in lore. And I never doubted Zannah was stronger. That's not what the tendril discussion was about. If someone is strong enough to make and sustain them in the first place there is no defense against them unless they make a mistake and leave an opening. Or they can't make enough of them to fully cover themselves or you can wait them out until they drop them. Either way you're not beating the tendrils. You're circumventing them. In a fight it doesn't matter as either way gets you the victory. It's an unbeatable attack but one that can still miss or be used incorrectly.

 

Nox doesn't have an apparent advantage in powerlevel. I can't say he or the Wrath are stronger than the other in the Force. I can say that sorcery gives Nox more options for offense and defense than mere martial strength or telekinesis gives the Wrath. And I can also say that a great deal of those options are more destructive and terrifying than brute force. By the way which powers specifically do you say the Warrior has that are not kinetic in nature? Force Scream isn't one, its description clearly indicates kinetic damage.

 

Your claim

 

Nox has an edge when it comes to his sorcery. This edge stems from the fact that the Sith Warrior doesn't have much proficiency when it comes to sorcery based attacks.

 

My counter claim

 

Nox has displayed no such techniques either in cut scenes or game mechanics that would require the Sith Warrior to need Sorcery in order to deal with said attacks.

 

Nox has greater ranged capabilities, has the ability to heal himself, and has a lot of tricks up his sleeve that can definitely provide the edge to the Sorcerer. On the other hand the Warrior can leap great distances, has superior agility, is a master duelist, and greater speed. You claim Nox's abilities are more terrifying but that's subjective. Nox's abilities are certainly nothing to sneeze at and are indeed terrifying but so is a relentless warrior who charges in and cuts down everyone in his path.

 

That no matter how many soldiers you throw at him, no matter how many shots are fired at him, he's able to cut them all down. As for the warrior? I'm talking about his new ability that enables him to release destructive waves of energy as well as balls of pure rage. This has given him some more ranged capabilities to add to his arsenal.

 

The one thing I'll say in the Tendril debate is any attack that requires so much concentration that your manual dexterity/hand eye coordination makes something you are proficient/skilled in clumsy is not going to be usable if you're trying to use another ability which creates concentration or if you're flying backwards through the air.

 

As for the force push debate? I'm arguing based on sources. If you want to tell me it doesn't work like that sure show me sources. As for being able to roll with it? That's only true if the attack is narrow. Except if you look at the clone wars dooku does a quick force push at Anakin/Obiwan kenobi. Both raise their hands to block the attack, slide backwards, and the allies on both sides of Anakin and Obi Wan kenobi fly backwards. Rolling with it isn't an option if the radius of the "push" is like a wall.

 

Likewise when they go to force push Dooku with a great deal of effort he leaps out of the way entirely rather than try to block it. This is seen often in the clone wars and in the various comics. You are either strong enough to block it, counter it with your own, or get out of the way. Depending on the level of concentration/strength used there are ways of mitigating it further but that's a safe rule of thumb.

 

As for me being unresponsive? Hardly. I keep asking if Nox has displayed an ability that the warrior would need Sorcery in order to avoid. I never said the warrior can block all of Nox's attacks. I did say any that Nox has displayed can be "dodged" via "getting out of the way." If you'd like to refute that I'd like to hear it. Also the force storm attack in game? Is considered Sith Sorcery. Thanaton calls it as such when he first engages Nox.

 

I also wanted to point out that mind altering can work on trained Sith etc. Forgot to mention that. In lore there has been characters who have ripped thoughts from their opponents, altered thought, and more. Master Fay ripped Ventress thoughts (who was a rival to Anakin and Obi Wan Kenobi) and rendered her unconcious. On top of that in the Jedi Knight main quest line you get an option at one point when encountering a Sith to make him hand his weapons over to you, get on his knees, and he does so allowing you to execute him. Jedi can go into straight up mind control. Yes the strong willed can resist force persuasion attempts but really powerful Jedi/Sith can override those.

 

Assaj Ventress is a very strong willed and very powerful Sith. She was just outclassed by Fay. There have also been characters in the lore who have resisted force powers but when captured and concentrated on enough by strong users have "caved in."

Edited November 27, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Metalenceladus]

Both Rhyltran and CrutchCricket have been having one wild debate about this, that has been most entertaining to read, no doubt.

 

Nox HAS demonstrated unique sith sorcery in his ghost binding ritual. That is/was his thing. If the assumption is that he kept the ghosts on a leash, than he DOES have a unique advantage in that he can draw power from all of those force ghosts.

 

As a pure powerhouse, Wrath has destroyed some real big cookies in his short career, and it is quite clear most if not all of the council should and do fear him should he become an enemy. Hence their respect and basically, we will get out of the way if you stay out of ours. Not something the most powerful sith in the galaxy do lightly.

 

Nox is on the Dark Council because he (dare I say easily) dominated Thanaton, not just once, but he did it on Corellia and Korriban.

 

Wrath killed Darth Baras, but it was definitely a hard battle, was not SO one sided. Darth Baras was Council, and one of the more powerful to boot. However, despite some people's opinion, Baras was a Sorcerer, not a Juggernaut. So the Wrath does have experience in dealing with ranged, forced based attacks, like lightning.

 

If I were to compare Thanaton and Baras, both are powerful, though Thanaton is likely the stronger of the two. Baras was gunning for Voice status, and he had the political and force power to defend that title. Just not from the Wrath, or a pissed off Emporer, who if he had not been distracted by his own vile plans, and the Hero of Tython, would have squashed Baras like a bug. Of course, that is why the Wrath is there, and why the council fears him.

 

With that said, Wrath killed Baras purely on his own power. Which is why the fight was a lot harder. Thanaton earlier had PROVEN that 1 on 1 with Nox, pure power on power, he was superior. Part was his age, his power base, and his wealth of knowledge. This is why Nox bound force ghosts in the first place so that he could survive an encounter with Thanaton, if not kill him.

 

I guess to break it all down, if still able to call upon the power of the force ghosts, Nox wins. Not easily mind you, but it is a substantial edge, that significantly boosts his own force power to levels the Wrath just wont be able to compete with. Without the force ghosts, I would say Wrath wins, by a good margin as well. He murdered a very powerful Council member with nothing but his own sheer power. An impressive feat. Nox is immensly powerful, it's the only reason he could have bound all of those ghosts in the first place, but it might just be one of those unique things that he is just REALLY good at. We did see him lose to Thanaton early on because he did not have the power to win, he had to augment his own power to compete.

 

Thanks for the interesting thread though, definitely beats this argument into the floor. But I would say it's a sort of draw, with either being the victor in different circumstances.

 

Both Nox and the Wrath are freaking awesome.

[Rhyltran]

Both Rhyltran and CrutchCricket have been having one wild debate about this, that has been most entertaining to read, no doubt.

 

 

 

Nox is on the Dark Council because he (dare I say easily) dominated Thanaton, not just once, but he did it on Corellia and Korriban.

 

Wrath killed Darth Baras, but it was definitely a hard battle, was not SO one sided. Darth Baras was Council, and one of the more powerful to boot. However, despite some people's opinion, Baras was a Sorcerer, not a Juggernaut. So the Wrath does have experience in dealing with ranged, forced based attacks, like lightning.

 

 

I'd argue the warrior defeated Baras just as easily as the sorcerer defeated Thanaton if not easier. Noman Karr has bested Baras in the past. The warrior defeats him rather easily. Not only that but when the warrior fights Baras? He defeats him easily enough to disarm him and even decide his fate. You can even choose to spare him. In any kind of fight defeating someone, being able to disarm them without killing them, and without an injury on yourself shows that you were an entire league beyond them. Baras didn't come anywhere close to defeating the warrior.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Exosasa]

I'd argue the warrior defeated Baras just as easily as the sorcerer defeated Thanaton if not easier. Noman Karr has bested Baras in the past. The warrior defeats him rather easily. Not only that but when the warrior fights Baras? He defeats him easily enough to disarm him and even decide his fate. You can even choose to spare him. In any kind of fight defeating someone, being able to disarm them without killing them, and without an injury on yourself shows that you were an entire league beyond them. Baras didn't come anywhere close to defeating the warrior.

 

I'm gonna use this because it is actually really fun to play around with.

Enough of that.

 

I'm going to pull a Darth_Wicked post and cite my sources!

 

1) The Inquisitor destroyed Thanaton not

, not

, but

times! On the other hand, we see that the Warrior

when they fought!

 

2) Much like how the Imps

. Jaeric Kaedan slew all six(!) Dread Masters simultaneously! As time shows, Jedi weaken over time. Weak weak weak!

 

3) Refer to point 1. Also... Vowran lets the Warrior chose to send Baras to jail or have Baras willingly accept a saber to the gut.

Which is more impressive/actually something not anyone with a lightsaber could do?

 

4) Refer #2.

 

Now... let's see. What does the warrior have over the Inquisitor now?

 

Warrior hasn't demonstrated any skill in the direct use of the Force other than pushes, saber throws, and chokes, (

) all things that every Sith and his grandmother can do. He just physically makes himself stronger, etc., sure... but where's the special Force capabilities. What can the Warrior do to defend himself from the focused power of

? Edited December 2, 2014 by Exosasa

[Rhyltran]

I'm gonna use this because it is actually really fun to play around with.

Enough of that.

 

I'm going to pull a Darth_Wicked post and cite my sources!

 

1) The Inquisitor destroyed Thanaton not

, not

, but

times! On the other hand, we see that the Warrior

when they fought!

 

2) Much like how the Imps

. Jaeric Kaedan slew all six(!) Dread Masters simultaneously! As time shows, Jedi weaken over time. Weak weak weak!

 

3) Refer to point 1. Also... Vowran lets the Warrior chose to send Baras to jail or have Baras willingly accept a saber to the gut.

Which is more impressive/actually something not anyone with a lightsaber could do?

 

4) Refer #2.

 

Now... let's see. What does the warrior have over the Inquisitor now?

 

Warrior hasn't demonstrated any skill in the direct use of the Force other than pushes, saber throws, and chokes, (

) all things that every Sith and his grandmother can do. He just physically makes himself stronger, etc., sure... but where's the special Force capabilities. What can the Warrior do to defend himself from the focused power of

?

 

Where in that video does the warrior struggle with baras? We see baras release force lightning at the warrior in which the warrior REFLECTS the lightning back at Baras with his lightsaber. We haven't seen a Sith do that anywhere in the history of star wars like that. Then we see a desperate baras BEGGING the council to step in and save him while the warrior stands there unharmed. Is it because he said "If you kill me I'll take you with me?" This doesn't imply baras is rough. This is just the warrior stating even if baras was strong enough that it still wouldn't matter. That no matter the situation Baras loses. Proof of this is if you pick the kill option Baras doesn't stand a chance.

 

As for the power display? That doesn't mean anything. "How can palpatine handle it? How can Luke Skywalker handle it?" It goes to show Thanaton's power wasn't enough for the inquisitor. The same as Baras to the warrior. Star Wars doesn't work that way. The warrior is faster than the inquisitor and can still dodge the attacks. The force "grab" and "Lifting him off the ground" would be shielded since they're likely relatively equal in terms of power (if they're not prove otherwise. Force feats in the star wars verse aren't proof of one person being stronger than the other.) Example, Galen Marek didn't display anything like what the Inquisitor pulled either. However, he did bring down a star destroyer with raw telekinetic ability.

 

In short flashy doesn't always = Better.

 

Likewise, we see Malgus shield himself against explosives in the force. A general blast like the inquisitor pulled can you prove that it would effect the warrior in the same way as Thanaton?

 

Also in your "What does the warrior have over the sorcerer?" Speed, strength, saber skill, agility, mobility, etc. All it takes one lightsaber cut to end the duel. Likewise, one good blast of lightning to the warrior without his defenses may do the same. I acknowledge that.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Exosasa]

Where in that video does the warrior struggle with baras? We see baras release force lightning at the warrior in which the warrior REFLECTS the lightning back at Baras with his lightsaber. We haven't seen a Sith do that anywhere in the history of star wars like that. Then we see a desperate baras BEGGING the council to step in and save him while the warrior stands there unharmed. Is it because he said "If you kill me I'll take you with me?" This doesn't imply baras is rough. This is just the warrior stating even if baras was strong enough that it still wouldn't matter. That no matter the situation Baras loses. Proof of this is if you pick the kill option Baras doesn't stand a chance.

 

As for the power display? That doesn't mean anything. "How can palpatine handle it? How can Luke Skywalker handle it?" It goes to show Thanaton's power wasn't enough for the inquisitor. The same as Baras to the warrior. Star Wars doesn't work that way. The warrior is faster than the inquisitor and can still dodge the attacks. The force "grab" and "Lifting him off the ground" would be shielded since they're likely relatively equal in terms of power (if they're not prove otherwise. Force feats in the star wars verse aren't proof of one person being stronger than the other.) Example, Galen Marek didn't display anything like what the Inquisitor pulled either. However, he did bring down a star destroyer with raw telekinetic ability.

Likewise, we see Malgus shield himself against explosives in the force. A general blast like the inquisitor pulled can you prove that it would effect the warrior in the same way as Thanaton?

 

Oy vey... you're blinding yourself with your favoritism.

1) Do you not hear how hard the Warrior is breathing? In the Inquisitor's fight, the Inquis be walkin up and chillin it. Warrior sounds like he ran eleven marathons and has lung cancer.

 

2)

 

3)

Did you miss the part where he ran from Corellia to the Dark Council on Korriban to get help?

 

4) Please reword this. I have no idea what you're saying.

 

5) You mean that thing that was already falling out of the sky?

 

I disregard anything from the sh*t that was TFU. Like... lol. Using that PoS as an example is like trying to support a tower with a wet noodle. Not. Doin. Anything.

 

6) The Warrior isn't Malgus, honey.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Exosasa

[Rhyltran]

Oy vey... you're blinding yourself with your favoritism.

1) Do you not hear how hard the Warrior is breathing? In the Inquisitor's fight, the Inquis be walkin up and chillin it. Warrior sounds like he ran eleven marathons and has lung cancer.

 

2)

 

3)

Did you miss the part where he ran from Corellia to the Dark Council on Korriban to get help?

 

4) Please reword this. I have no idea what you're saying.

 

5) You mean that thing that was already falling out of the sky?

 

I disregard anything from the sh*t that was TFU. Like... lol. Using that PoS as an example is like trying to support a tower with a wet noodle. Not. Doin. Anything.

 

6) The Warrior isn't Malgus, honey.

 

The warrior was struggling against the lightning. His heavy breathing stopped once he reflected it back to him. Or did you not notice that afterwards he was breathing fine? It's no different than breathing heavy when lifting a heavy weight.

 

Yes. I'm aware Thanaton ran away begging for help. Where did I claim the warrior was stronger than the inquisitor? I never did.

 

Disregard Force Unleashed all you want. In legends continuity the first one was Canon. Sorry, just like the Emperor coming back using clone bodies and using force wormholes to tear apart starfleets. You can't pick and choose canon. It followed the rules of Canon.

 

The warrior doesn't have to be Malgus. The ability to shield oneself using the force is something every Jedi/Sith possess.

 

Falling out of the sky? He helped land it with the force. It was still a friggen star destroyer. Not to mention.. Luke Skywalker did even greater with raw telekinetic power. Of course. He was Luke Skywalker. My point is telekinetics can do quite a bit.

 

As for your number 4.. reword it? What needs rewording? You asked how the warrior could handle it. Many characters who are stronger than Nox haven't displayed powers kind of like that. Flashy doesn't = More powerful. There's been many flashy moves in star wars history that have been done that still make said characters pale in comparison to later characters.

 

P.S. If I was being a fanboy I would say the "Warrior is the strongest EVAR!!!!1111!!11! which I'm not. Warrior and Nox are both impressive and both the Inquisitor and warrior are my only 55's. Though, in the grand scheme of things. Nox and the Warrior both pale in comparison to certain jedi/sith in Star Wars lore.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rhyltran

[Exosasa]

The warrior was struggling against the lightning. His heavy breathing stopped once he reflected it back to him. Or did you not notice that afterwards he was breathing fine? It's no different than breathing heavy when lifting a heavy weight.

 

Yes. I'm aware Thanaton ran away begging for help. Where did I claim the warrior was stronger than the inquisitor? I never did.

 

Disregard Force Unleashed all you want. In legends continuity the first one was Canon. Sorry, just like the Emperor coming back using clone bodies and using force wormholes to tear apart starfleets. You can't pick and choose canon. It followed the rules of Canon.

 

The warrior doesn't have to be Malgus. The ability to shield oneself using the force is something every Jedi/Sith possess.

 

Falling out of the sky? He helped land it with the force. It was still a friggen star destroyer. Not to mention.. Luke Skywalker did even greater with raw telekinetic power. Of course. He was Luke Skywalker. My point is telekinetics can do quite a bit.

 

As for your number 4.. reword it? What needs rewording? You asked how the warrior could handle it. Many characters who are stronger than Nox haven't displayed powers kind of like that. Flashy doesn't = More powerful. There's been many flashy moves in star wars history that have been done that still make said characters pale in comparison to later characters.

 

P.S. If I was being a fanboy I would say the "Warrior is the strongest EVAR!!!!1111!!11! which I'm not. Warrior and Nox are both impressive and both the Inquisitor and warrior are my only 55's.

 

???

 

Cmon, be consistent. We can't discuss if you keep changing your views and contradicting yourself.

 

Take a stance and stick with what you say, please...

[Rhyltran]

???

 

Cmon, be consistent. We can't discuss if you keep changing your views and contradicting yourself.

 

Take a stance and stick with what you say, please...

 

Care to show you where I contradicted myself? I never once claimed Warrior is stronger than Nox. Throughout my argument with Crutched I always stood by the argument that both Nox and the Warrior are equal.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rhyltran

[dcaleb]

I'd argue the warrior defeated Baras just as easily as the sorcerer defeated Thanaton if not easier. Noman Karr has bested Baras in the past. The warrior defeats him rather easily. Not only that but when the warrior fights Baras? He defeats him easily enough to disarm him and even decide his fate. You can even choose to spare him. In any kind of fight defeating someone, being able to disarm them without killing them, and without an injury on yourself shows that you were an entire league beyond them. Baras didn't come anywhere close to defeating the warrior.

 

During the dialogue cut scene between two stages of the fight against Baras the game states it is a pretty close fight. that seems like it could go either way (you can even pick the shockingly fatalistic choice of telling Baras you are taking him with you when Baras says you are going to die instead of telling him you aren't going to die). And the only reason Kallig didn't get such an option was because another Council member steps in and kills Thanaton to save what little dignity he had left, because at that point you were basically just toying with him. I mean, you flat out make the guy bow to you by busting through his defenses against telekinesis and controlling his body like a freaking puppet. And, I don't know why you seem to think the warrior deflecting lightning with a lightsaber is unusual, it is kinda the standard way to defend against force lightning. Much rarer is just back handing it like Kallig does to Thanaton's lightning.

[Eidolooon]

Problem is, Nox relies either on lightning or mind manipulation to kill enemy. First can be reflected by lightsaber (), second can be resisted/endured. His saber skills, even as assassin, aren't that good.

 

and that is because...? You think so? wielding doublesaber is one of the hardest things to do, so his skills MUST be "that good".

[Rhyltran]

During the dialogue cut scene between two stages of the fight against Baras the game states it is a pretty close fight. that seems like it could go either way (you can even pick the shockingly fatalistic choice of telling Baras you are taking him with you when Baras says you are going to die instead of telling him you aren't going to die). And the only reason Kallig didn't get such an option was because another Council member steps in and kills Thanaton to save what little dignity he had left, because at that point you were basically just toying with him. I mean, you flat out make the guy bow to you by busting through his defenses against telekinesis and controlling his body like a freaking puppet. And, I don't know why you seem to think the warrior deflecting lightning with a lightsaber is unusual, it is kinda the standard way to defend against force lightning. Much rarer is just back handing it like Kallig does to Thanaton's lightning.

 

Deflecting lightning with a lightsaber isn't rare. Reflecting lightning back against the attacker with one is. I don't re-call the game stating the fight is pretty close. I don't remember that at all. Smacking lightning out of the way isn't unusual. It's just using the force as a shield to reflect it back. We see Dooku do this in attack of the clones when Yoda absorbs it and releases it back at him.

 

What you described does indeed show that Nox is much stronger than his opponent. I completely agree with you there. I also don't re-call the wrath ever stating that the fight can go either way. The fight seemed to be to be in the same vein as Nox just "different." Nox used raw power to completely crush Thanaton. On the other hand the warrior seemed to be unmoving and untouchable to Baras. With baras throwing everything at the warrior and being unable to get him to budge.

 

There's a reason at the end he doesn't fight back against the warrior. In fact, before the warrior casually puts his lightsaber blade to his gut and turns it on he said "I cannot die!" The warrior at that point just seemed to be like "Just shutup already." both Baras and Thanaton seemed to be handily beaten.

 

I don't know. I just don't see it. I see both in their respective fields dominating their opponent completely. The council fears the wrath after his confrontation with Baras and likewise no one wants to challenge Nox's claim to a seat on the council.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Rhyltran

[kriegheld]

Deflecting lightning with a lightsaber isn't rare. Reflecting lightning back against the attacker with one is. I don't re-call the game stating the fight is pretty close. I don't remember that at all. Smacking lightning out of the way isn't unusual. It's just using the force as a shield to reflect it back. We see Dooku do this in attack of the clones when Yoda absorbs it and releases it back at him.

 

What you described does indeed show that Nox is much stronger than his opponent. I completely agree with you there. I also don't re-call the wrath ever stating that the fight can go either way. The fight seemed to be to be in the same vein as Nox just "different." Nox used raw power to completely crush Thanaton. On the other hand the warrior seemed to be unmoving and untouchable to Baras. With baras throwing everything at the warrior and being unable to get him to budge.

 

There's a reason at the end he doesn't fight back against the warrior. In fact, before the warrior casually puts his lightsaber blade to his gut and turns it on he said "I cannot die!" The warrior at that point just seemed to be like "Just shutup already." both Baras and Thanaton seemed to be handily beaten.

 

I don't know. I just don't see it. I see both in their respective fields dominating their opponent completely. The council fears the wrath after his confrontation with Baras and likewise no one wants to challenge Nox's claim to a seat on the council.

 

All good points.

[Highsis]

I eventually decided to main Nox. After 12xp period, I created a SI and leveling him up.

 

However, I believe Wrath is more powerful, which I tend to think more and more as I re-played SI storyline.

 

I think debating whether lightsaber is more effective than force power is pointless. Both Wrath and Nox defeated enemies with either powerful combat ability or force, and since there is no proof to prove one's superiority over another, it is a moot point.

 

The only parallel and objective comparison that can be drawn is the caliber of enemies that each defeated; in this, Wrath exceeds Nox by far.

 

Nox would have lost to Pallages in Narshadar if he hadn't by the grace a plot armor decided to stop draining force from Nox and fought with lightsabers. Nox would have lost to Zash if it weren't for Khem's intervention. Nox lost to a ghost and was only saved by Lord Kallik. Nox lost to Thanaton despite preparing defense with force walking. Furthermore, Zash was serving non-DC member, Thenaton whereas Wrath served Baras directly under DC. The rank is not an absolute indication of power, but when we lack other measures it comes handy. Thenaton was even looked down by other DC members on top of those facts.

 

Wrath never lost a fight and he destroyed everything on his path, be it the voice of the emperor, 3 Jedi masters and troops. As I said earlier, the enemies he faced were far superior, too. I won't repeat those again, but he defeated enemies more powerful than Baras at least in 5 instances. Nox faced no one more powerful than those individuals, and lost against those seemingly inferior to enemies Wrath destroyed before he utilized force walking ritual. I highly doubt if Wrath would have lost to those enemies considering the enemies he defeated.

 

The fact that Wrath breathed hard during a fight vs Baras? So what? SI lost to 4 not-so-strong enemies, and Thenaton was not even regarded as an equal among DC whereas Baras dominated DC without SW's opposition(Vaurawn clearly states that Baras is nearly invisible even after you free the entity), and Thenaton was just a normal Sith when Baras was empowered by the Entity. There is absolutely nothing that suggests Thenaton was stronger than Baras while the counter case is alluded in some ways; could there an argument against Wrath's superiority?

 

Now if we were to look at it from story-perspectives, Wrath is a personal executioner of the emperor without his powerbase. Lord Scourge, according to the codex, for last 3 hundred years, has killed over 1000 Sith and 100 Jedi, most likely of renowned individuals for it was the emperor's orders to kill them, unopposed and even DC feared him. With the emperor defeated in voice's body and needing a power to suppress ambitious sith lords who would no doubt try to take advantage of his absence like Baras, it only makes sense he would appoint someone equally capable, if not more capable, as his Wrath. It doesn't make sense if DC member is personally more powerful than Wrath because they even have their own powerbase Wrath doesn't, making them virtually untouchable. Wrath's position is pointless if it's not an one-man army.

 

I do main SI, honest, but I do believe Wrath is more powerful, looking at it objectively. You can theorycraft how the force ritual and ghost's power can attack Wrath in ways he can't defend, but that is a wild presumption at best. A cold hard fact is that enemies SW faced were greater and SW eliminated them all without a failure; SI faced 4 enemies he couldn't defeat during the course of the game, none of those certainly more powerful than many SW conquered. Hence, I believe Wrath is more powerful than Nox. Nox will first have to be the most powerful Sith in DC to even start comparing his power against Wrath, and that's simply not true without any evidences.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Highsis

[DarthAeonis]

While many of your points are valid, I think the enemies SW faced were of higher caliber, and this is a reliable way to tell which of these two are superior. I have played SI before SW so feel free to list any notable enemies SI defeated. I will argue in favour of the Wrath because nobody else did. I agree that SW had walked a privileged path and had things easy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he is weaker. It could be argued that SI faced harder circumstances simply because he was relatively weaker.

 

We just have to look at the enemies he defeated in comparison to SI:

 

Darth Baras, who almost dominated the DC whereas Thenaton was regarded as a lesser. Baras was manipulative, but if he were not powerful his deceit alone wouldn't have bent whole DS to his will. If not for SW, he would have been declared emperor's voice and seized entire control of the empire. He is a better sith than Thenaton.

 

Noman Kaar, who fatally injured Baras and defeated Darth Ekkage(DC member. She killed a sith lord in few seconds), eliminated Sith Infiltrators which were the best assassins in the galaxy. So when SI defeated Lord Jash, SW defeated a Jedi Master who bested DC member. In Tatooin, SI was already capable of defeating 2 Jedi Masters without help from companion; master Yonlach, a legendary Jedi teacher, and Master Yuli, the best duelist Yonlach has ever taught.

 

SW enlisted help of Baras's apprentice to defeate Darth Vengean, but the apprentice was needed to unlock the chamber of Darth Vengean. We don't know if he was incapable of defeating Darth Vengean alone, but from his other exploits, I would reckon he was capable.

 

In Hoth, SW defeated Master Xerender, one of the best Jedi leaders in war efforts and who defeated Baras; he goes on to defeat Xerender's master(forgot his name) who has been communing with the force in his trap for a decade and who claims to have understanding of force transcendent any force users.

 

In Corellia, SW kills 3 Jedi masters simultaneously. One of Jedi Masters and his guards die in less than one second during the cutscene, though honestly that was done to ease the fight the for player; it still counts as his feat.

 

In Voss, SW defeats Voice of the Emperor(presumably similar to one that JK killed) empowered by Mel-Kor.

 

Lord Draghg who easily bested Vaurewn, another DC member.

 

 

At the highest estimation, SW was stronger than DC member Darth Ekkage at the end of Chapter 1. The same cannot be said of SI. Many details have slipped my memory, but I don't recall SI taking 3 Jedi Masters simultaneously nor facing enemies such as Voice of the Emperor and Mel-Kor either. Thenaton might be stronger than Baras(which I doubt due to other DC members disposition towards him and Baras being empowered by ancient Sith spirit), but I don't see him being definitely more powerful than Darth Ekkage, Xerender or his stronger master, or Noman Karr. I think we all tend to forget the enemies SW defeats before facing Baras because Baras was relatively unimpressive, and we automatically assume later enemies are stronger than enemies one faced earlier; from a story-point of view, this is not true; For instance, Noman Karr was a man who anihilated the best assassins' order in the galaxy and defeated Baras(surprise!) and a DC member, and SW faced him at the end of Chapter 1.

 

I also think a Wrath wouldn't be deemed as such intimating figure if he were not capable of executing a rogue DC member and his power base. Lord Scourge was DC-caliber(he killed one) 300 years ago and was only bested by Darth Nihiriss, one of the most powerful DC Darths at that time. 300 years later, he would have become immensely powerful and I can't imagine the emperor appointing someone weaker than that, which implies that SW at the end of Chapter 2 was a force to be feared even by DC members.

 

Hence I tend to believe SW being more powerful, but I am willing to change my view if someone could refute my points.

 

this soo much. both sith were the first two classes i got to 55 and i loved them both but i too have to give it to SW in terms of raw power and skill. not only does he accomplish all these feats but it was also by his own power, not enhanced by any rituals, spirits, alchemy, etc. its all just him and that cant be said for many legendary sith before him. tbh by the end of SWTOR i believe the Wrath may be considered one of if not the strongest (with the inquisitor im sure) sith in history. And even in the expansion(s) Marr himself acknowledges the strength of the Wrath numerous times, and Marr's the ring leader of the council.

[BrianDavion]

Yeah I'm gonna agree with those who side with the warrior. The Emperor basicly had his pick of any sith he so desired. and he picked the Wraith, not Nox.

[ReiKai]

Yeah I'm gonna agree with those who side with the warrior. The Emperor basicly had his pick of any sith he so desired. and he picked the Wraith, not Nox.

 

Which had nothing to do with ability, only circumstances. And the fact that trying to induct the Heir of Kallig as the new Wrath would be akin to signing his own death sentence. The Emperor has effectively become a being of pure Essence. Essentially a Force Ghost. He's divided that amongst his True Body, which remains asleep, his Voice, and divided power amongst not only his Imperial Guard, but also the Emperor's Children. If his Voice had been killed by the Heir of Kallig on Voss, the Heir could very well have used the Forcewalking Ritual to bind that portion of not only Vitiate's essence, but part of Sel-Makor as well, making the Heir enormously powerful while permanently weakening Vitiate.

 

The current Wrath does not possess such an ability. In all honestly, Wrath has been used as a Tool from the getgo, whereas the Heir chose to build her power and confront Thanaton, not just for revenge, but for survival.

[Rhyltran]

Yeah I'm gonna agree with those who side with the warrior. The Emperor basicly had his pick of any sith he so desired. and he picked the Wraith, not Nox.

 

To be fair as Re-Kai pointed out there's numerous factors to that. The Emperor wants the ultimate tool yes but that doesn't mean the ultimate tool is necessarily the most powerful Sith. That being said, the Emperor didn't pick a weakling for the position either. He did want the ultimate enforcer but you can't use the fact that the wrath was chosen by the Emperor to definitely prove that he's superior to Nox. Again, I'm still standing by them both being equal. I haven't see enough evidence to dissuade me and I'm actively defending both characters here.

[BrianDavion]

To be fair as Re-Kai pointed out there's numerous factors to that. The Emperor wants the ultimate tool yes but that doesn't mean the ultimate tool is necessarily the most powerful Sith. That being said, the Emperor didn't pick a weakling for the position either. He did want the ultimate enforcer but you can't use the fact that the wrath was chosen by the Emperor to definitely prove that he's superior to Nox. Again, I'm still standing by them both being equal. I haven't see enough evidence to dissuade me and I'm actively defending both characters here.

 

you're proably right about them both being equal or close to it as BW's NEVER going to come out and tell us "ohh yeah your character is canonicly not as powerful as his"

 

that said it's fun to debate. regarding Nox binding the Emperor... an intreasting idea but I think that'd be a FATAL mistake on the Inqusitor's part. there are limits to the force walking ritual. the Inqusitor has to control the ghosts. they don't just dissapper into the wind. they're constantly there, struggling with you. we know little about the Emperor's EXACT power level, except that he's more powerful then any other sith alive. I'd guess by an order of magnitude. I suspect if the inqusitor tried to bind the emperor. the emperor would end up in control of the Inqusitor's body.

[CrutchCricket]

Not up to making replies that are measured in pages at the moment but too many people are a) only seeing things from a martial perspective (i.e. Wrath defeated X and X was y powerlevel so clearly Wrath greater than all) and b) thinking the ghosts and other ritual empowerment are a crutch. These things, especially when in combination are a very biased approach. And ultimately not that useful. The Wrath beat everyone down physically, you say? Great, that's what he's supposed to do. The inquisitor on the other hand isn't about "rawr rek jedi" but about acquiring and using powers more arcane and mystical (which he does very well). Furthermore I'll grant that the Wrath takes down some impressive foes. But in this time period, Jedi and Sith are legion and take each other down every day. No one messes with ghost though, much less binds multiple spirits and uses them to effectively make themselves unkillable and challenge a Sith far beyond his station (and win). The things sorcerers do cannot be done by 90% of Sith past or present. Most Sith sorcerers on the other hand can master martial skills (at the cost of sorcery). And 99% of Sith in the TOR timeline cannot do what Nox can re: the ghosts.

 

And if combat is all you care about, look at it another way- the Warrior constantly fights tougher and tougher opponents, bettering himself with each victory. The Inquisitor does none of that but his path to power still enables him to beat a Dark Council member with none of the "practice" the Wrath had.

 

For the record though, having replayed the SI and played SW in short succession, the curbstomp Nox gives Thanaton in the final battle is unmatched by any I've seen the Wrath do in cutscene or in gameplay. So don't write off Nox just because he isn't knocking off some great master every other story mission. His one moment of ******ery felt more powerful than all of the Wrath's combined. I won't use that to claim he's stronger. But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker.

[CrutchCricket]

that said it's fun to debate. regarding Nox binding the Emperor... an intreasting idea but I think that'd be a FATAL mistake on the Inqusitor's part. there are limits to the force walking ritual. the Inqusitor has to control the ghosts. they don't just dissapper into the wind. they're constantly there, struggling with you. we know little about the Emperor's EXACT power level, except that he's more powerful then any other sith alive. I'd guess by an order of magnitude. I suspect if the inqusitor tried to bind the emperor. the emperor would end up in control of the Inqusitor's body.

 

I don't think it'd be instant but it would definitely be an accelerated case of the Force walking sickness. Probably measured in hours or days not the weeks or months from the first time around. Probably not enough time to get to Belsavis and Voss again to heal.

[ReiKai]

that said it's fun to debate. regarding Nox binding the Emperor... an intreasting idea but I think that'd be a FATAL mistake on the Inqusitor's part. there are limits to the force walking ritual. the Inqusitor has to control the ghosts. they don't just dissapper into the wind. they're constantly there, struggling with you. we know little about the Emperor's EXACT power level, except that he's more powerful then any other sith alive. I'd guess by an order of magnitude. I suspect if the inqusitor tried to bind the emperor. the emperor would end up in control of the Inqusitor's body.

 

It's a possibility, but not a definitive one. Especially since it's exactly what Vitiate is doing. The ritual he performed to consume the life of an entire planet and its inhabitants didn't just take their life, it took their essence and beings into himself. Vitiate effectively Force Bound an entire world. Not on his own mind you, having tricked 100 Sith Lords to take part in the ritual and only telling them it would defeat the Republic. Vitiate doesn't just have all this power that's made him immortal, he's bound all their spirits as well. Which is why, as noted in both the Novels and in the Comics, that he appears to speak with the voice of not just one, but the voices of many.

 

On Voss the Heir of Kallig learned how to maintain control over the bound ghosts, and even bound a Voss Guardian Spirit during those events. We also know from Belsavis that the Heir's body had been completely reconstructed by the Mother machine on an atomic level, and not only was her power increased, but the Heir's capacity was expanded to handle the power of the ghosts without difficulty.

[Rhyltran]

Not up to making replies that are measured in pages at the moment but too many people are a) only seeing things from a martial perspective (i.e. Wrath defeated X and X was y powerlevel so clearly Wrath greater than all) and b) thinking the ghosts and other ritual empowerment are a crutch. These things, especially when in combination are a very biased approach. And ultimately not that useful. The Wrath beat everyone down physically, you say? Great, that's what he's supposed to do. The inquisitor on the other hand isn't about "rawr rek jedi" but about acquiring and using powers more arcane and mystical (which he does very well). Furthermore I'll grant that the Wrath takes down some impressive foes. But in this time period, Jedi and Sith are legion and take each other down every day. No one messes with ghost though, much less binds multiple spirits and uses them to effectively make themselves unkillable and challenge a Sith far beyond his station (and win). The things sorcerers do cannot be done by 90% of Sith past or present. Most Sith sorcerers on the other hand can master martial skills (at the cost of sorcery). And 99% of Sith in the TOR timeline cannot do what Nox can re: the ghosts.

 

And if combat is all you care about, look at it another way- the Warrior constantly fights tougher and tougher opponents, bettering himself with each victory. The Inquisitor does none of that but his path to power still enables him to beat a Dark Council member with none of the "practice" the Wrath had.

 

For the record though, having replayed the SI and played SW in short succession, the curbstomp Nox gives Thanaton in the final battle is unmatched by any I've seen the Wrath do in cutscene or in gameplay. So don't write off Nox just because he isn't knocking off some great master every other story mission. His one moment of ******ery felt more powerful than all of the Wrath's combined. I won't use that to claim he's stronger. But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker.

 

As much as I've debated with you I agree with most of this. On the other hand I would argue the warriors skill with his blade is something that is unique to the Sith of this era too. The sorcerer proves beyond all other sorcerers of his era by mastering a technique that none of them have displayed proficiency in. The warrior's physical prowess and martial skill with the blade is much the same in this regard. Not as flashy sure but he's gone far as a swordsman and as a.. well, warrior. Most Sith usually branch out into sorcery by this point but the warrior hasn't. Not to mention the Warrior can now use blasts of pure dark side energy. There was another character who was shown to do the same..

 

Exar Kun and he required an amulet to do it. The warriors blasts are, of course, inferior but then again he doesn't have the amulet. Still the amulet was created by Exar Kun's knowledge in sorcery in order to pull off what he does with it. It's interesting the warrior can do that with perhaps sheer will as we haven't seen him practice sorcery on the side to develop such a technique. I agree with you though. Nox is certainly not weaker than the warrior but as my stance has been in the past I'd argue the warrior certainly isn't weaker than Nox either.

[PifferPuff]

Nox started out as a weak pathetic little slave girl who - despite her strong affinity to the force and her determination - got lucky with some of her trials, and bested the odds stacked against her. Soon after her arrival on DK, her fate was later guided by Kelig: urging and helping her get stronger through rituals and giving insight to her rivals. Throughout her story, her main purpose was gaining strength and building her power base -- to the point where she shrugs off the most powerful attacks that Thanaton hurls at her, and throws him around like a soggy rag doll.

 

The Wrath, on the other hand, needed to do no such drudgery: he was incredibly strong from the get go. No training, no secrets learnt, just an unstoppable juggernaut (like, "YEEAAAHHH, I'm da Juggernaut b****, and Imma beat da s*** out yo a**) to do his master's bidding. Once he became his own master (answerable only to the emperor), his path to strength was to strip away the strength of his most powerful foes: in his case, Baras. To do that, he needed help from his companions, The Hand and a Dark Council member (who was versed in the Forcewalking ritual - that Baras had used on a ghost) to unbind a force spirit from Baras' grasp. Without first diminishing Baras' power base (both logistical and force-based), The Wrath would likely fail to best his former master -- or so he was repeatedly told by his allies.

 

In the end, both Nox and Wrath relied heavily on the assistance of others (whether willfully or not) to beat their greatest adversary.

 

So, my vote is on either of them based on what Nox chooses to do with the ghosts at the end of chapter 3. If Nox gives up the ghosts and lets them go free (thereby sacrificing a large reserve of her strength in the force and thus weakening her power base), the clear better is The Wrath -- hands down. If, however, Nox chooses to keep the ghosts bound (which is the darkside choice of course), it is likely that Nox could be stronger than The Wrath: if The Wrath relied heavily on the force during a duel between the two. However, since the Wrath is a brutish beast who specializes more on physical melee attacks, I'd wager that Nox would have a tough time against him. She might marginally beat him, if she got lucky, but, in all likelihood, it would be a draw.

 

 

Anyways, just my two cents worth.

Edited December 8, 2014 by PifferPuff

[Morrolan]

For the record though, having replayed the SI and played SW in short succession, the curbstomp Nox gives Thanaton in the final battle is unmatched by any I've seen the Wrath do in cutscene or in gameplay. So don't write off Nox just because he isn't knocking off some great master every other story mission. His one moment of ******ery felt more powerful than all of the Wrath's combined. I won't use that to claim he's stronger. But I will say it definitely proves he's not weaker.

 

I also played them in quick succession and had the same impression. In fact I was disappointed in the Baras fight cause it lacked the epicness of the Thanaton fight.