Emperor's Wrath vs Darth Nox, who is more powerful lore-wise?

[RTCBrad]

It's so frustrating to take apart lore and gameplay.

 

If we stick to the gameplay, Noxx as a sorcerer has next to no lightsaber skills (you could replace a sorc's lightsaber with a cactus on a stick and it would not make a significant difference), Noxx as an assassin would have much more limited knowledge of the Force. On the other hand, gameplay wise, Wrath is limited to ligthsaber skills with very limited Force backup.

 

But this is purely gameplay limitations, in both cases, in the same way the distinction is made between inquisitors and warriors. Take most accomplished Jedis and Sith in the lore, you will notice that Sidious, while being the ultimate inquisitor, with great knowledge of the force, is also a stunning saberist. Most consular or inquisitor types were fairly competent with lightsabers, lightyears beyond what the sorcererr class offers. In a similar way, Malgus, being the "classic" juggernaut, shrugs off force assaults and other unpleasantness simply by drawing from his rage. That's also what juggernauts are supposed to do. Simply shrug off anything thrown at them.

 

Well Malgus can't shrug off everything like when Satele blew up a mountain on his head.

 

I also think the lightning storm from Thanaton would have fried the Wrath no way his lightsaber would have blocked that, I really can't see any situation where Wrath wins.

[vathouille]

Well Malgus can't shrug off everything like when Satele blew up a mountain on his head.

 

Yet he survived said mountain blowing on his aid. That's the issue about defensive abilities in games like swtor. They are not as visually appealing as flashy offensive abilities (lightning, telekinesis, saber throw, weapon flourishes of all kinds, full auto fire ...)

 

There is a lot to say about the guy that just won't die, it's just not as fancy. They do it well with Malgus getting shot by a rocket launcher and getting a grenade in the face without being incapacitated.

 

Absorbing and deflecting harmful force powers is an integral part of the Jedi arsenal (forgot the exact name of the discipline) and most likely has a Sith equivalent.

[Eidolooon]

Emperor > Nox> Wrath> Jadus (in agent story there is line that says "Jadus's power is 2nd to emperor")>then probably Marr

[vathouille]

In agent story there is line that says "Jadus's power is 2nd to emperor"

 

Off topic, but fighting and holding one's own against such a powerful sith so early in the Agent's storyline was a big no-no for me. Such strong characters should not appear at lower levels, just like Revan being a mere boss in a level 40ish Flashpoint.

 

Jadus was a powerful and scary figure and I was very disappointed to have to face him and defeat him at this stage.

[Eidolooon]

Off topic, but fighting and holding one's own against such a powerful sith so early in the Agent's storyline was a big no-no for me. Such strong characters should not appear at lower levels, just like Revan being a mere boss in a level 40ish Flashpoint.

 

Jadus was a powerful and scary figure and I was very disappointed to have to face him and defeat him at this stage.

 

well i agree that he appeared way too early there. but its quote taken out of the game, but on the other hand, what watcher 2 (she said it) can know about power of the lords in DC, probably they would find it hard to judge

[Rhyltran]

Not quite. Typically, Bioware games don't HAVE canon that contradicts player choice. One of the Dragon Age novels featured a character who could have been dead, if I recall correctly, and BW immediately hurried to clarify that her being alive was not to be considered canon if you had killed her in the game. Only exception to my knowledge is KOTOR, which is of course a licensed game within what was at the time the established Star Wars EU.

 

Really? That's why we have a male revan and a female Exile? You have to understand that Dragon Age is a different animal considering they have made, with inquisition, a method where you can have a game world that reflects on your previous choices. This isn't the case with SWTOR. Even if what you said is true then if you went assassin that would be "Canon" in your game and if you went Sorcerer then it's canon that your character is a sorcerer. So then it would be a comparison between the Sith Warrior vs Sorcerer or Assassin vs Sith Warrior.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Rhyltran

[CrutchCricket]

It could be argued that SI faced harder circumstances simply because he was relatively weaker.

Not really, since the difficulties come from Harkun disliking the inquisitor and actively trying to get him killed and that is painstakingly obvious. If the inquisitor were any weaker Harkun would likely just kill him like that other acolyte (the female one that's actually nice to you but dies the next time you see her).

 

Darth Baras, who almost dominated the DC whereas Thenaton was regarded as a lesser. Baras was manipulative, but if he were not powerful his deceit alone wouldn't have bent whole DS to his will. If not for SW, he would have been declared emperor's voice and seized entire control of the empire. He is a better sith than Thenaton.

 

Noman Kaar, who fatally injured Baras and defeated Darth Ekkage(DC member. She killed a sith lord in few seconds), eliminated Sith Infiltrators which were the best assassins in the galaxy. So when SI defeated Lord Jash, SW defeated a Jedi Master who bested DC member. In Tatooin, SI was already capable of defeating 2 Jedi Masters without help from companion; master Yonlach, a legendary Jedi teacher, and Master Yuli, the best duelist Yonlach has ever taught.

Baras didn't "dominate" the Dark Council. The only reason Marr and the others put up with his ranting is because the 1% chance that he really was the Voice was too much risk to take when dealing with the Emperor, who's been known to purge the entire council for the betrayal of just a few. I've outlined several reasons why Baras' entire plan was a joke and doomed to fail in another thread. I'll just summarize the flaws:

a) Didn't neutralize the Hand. Baras knew enough about how the Voice works to trap the real one on Voss but somehow failed to take into account that the Hand would thwart his plans by either sending the Wrath (and what would he have done if Scourge hadn't seen the Knight and thus didn't defect?) or by cluing in the rest of the Dark Council.

b) The Emperor can insta-stomp or mind control anything. The minute someone challenges Baras and he does neither, the game's up.

c) The Emperor sounds ultra dark and creepy. Baras sounds like what he is, a fat man throwing a tantrum. Even a Force-less Miraluka could see past that.

d) Regardless of anything Baras does, the Knight destroys Sel-Makor which would free the Emperor to return and roflpwn him and everyone within a planetary radius of him (also known as Baras' belt size). This one isn't his fault but it dooms him nonetheless.

 

Thanaton on the other hand has no such failures. He consistently shows himself to be a master of his power and can still stand up to a ghosted-up, but unstable Nox (end of Chapter 2). He has his own derp moments of course like not "double tapping" on several occasions, leaving his library hilariously under-protected, not removing the entire volume of whatever source material Nox used to heal himself and of course that silly Kaggath then run away business. But at least with him most of his mistakes come from a character flaw (arrogance). Baras on the other hand just seems to be all talk.

 

I can grant Nomen Karr as a worthy victory for the Warrior, though I might contest the scale, given I already think Baras isn't much Force-wise and Dark Council membership doesn't guarantee power (Zhorrid anyone?) Ekkage was powerful but she took that lord by surprise with his defenses lowered. I don't think she could insta-stomp anyone if they were ready for it. In any case for the inquisitor I would counter with Lord Paladius on Nar Shaddaa and Nomar Organa on Alderaan. The latter is a Jedi Master and while we don't know as much about him as Karr, a Master's a Master. Paladius is of note because he had the ability to disrupt an enemy's connection to the Force. I don't think he was a master at it but for an apprentice to prevail against it anyway is still commendable. Compare that to the Huntress (later Darth Cognus) in the Bane trilogy who used that ability (untrained) successfully against a Jedi, Dark Jedi and even Darth Bane himself (through the element of surprise).

 

SW enlisted help of Baras's apprentice to defeate Darth Vengean, but the apprentice was needed to unlock the chamber of Darth Vengean. We don't know if he was incapable of defeating Darth Vengean alone, but from his other exploits, I would reckon he was capable.

 

In Hoth, SW defeated Master Xerender, one of the best Jedi leaders in war efforts and who defeated Baras; he goes on to defeat Xerender's master(forgot his name) who has been communing with the force in his trap for a decade and who claims to have understanding of force transcendent any force users.

 

In Corellia, SW kills 3 Jedi masters simultaneously. One of Jedi Masters and his guards die in less than one second during the cutscene, though honestly that was done to ease the fight the for player; it still counts as his feat.

 

In Voss, SW defeats Voice of the Emperor(presumably similar to one that JK killed) empowered by Mel-Kor.

 

Lord Draghg who easily bested Vaurewn, another DC member.

The Voice wanted him to strike him down. Not at all like what the Knight faced. Also the actual fight was forced by Sel-Makor. Since the Emperor wanted that body dead it's possible he offered no resistance whatsoever and the dark side displays were purely from Sel-Makor.

 

Otherwise it's clear the Warrior had more martial conquests. That's the point of the class. But at the risk of repeating too much and making it seem like a crutch, we have to talk about the ghosts. While the Warrior was killing all these impressive people the Inquisitor was confronting, and binding Sith ghosts. Which is still the more impressive feat lore-wise, given what Sith ghosts can do. Look at Exar Kun. Or the ghosts in the Dark Temple. One of the sidequests has what appears to be a possessed slave knock you off your feet with Force Lightning. More to the point he tells you to find his apprentice who turns out to be a full Sith Lord (may even have been on the Dark Council, can't remember) possessed by the ghost of the apprentice and unable to escape. All an all Sith ghosts seem closer to Eldritch Abominations than regular Force users and the Inquisitor regularly deals with and overcomes them. I give the point to him.

 

I also think a Wrath wouldn't be deemed as such intimating figure if he were not capable of executing a rogue DC member and his power base. Lord Scourge was DC-caliber(he killed one) 300 years ago and was only bested by Darth Nihiriss, one of the most powerful DC Darths at that time. 300 years later, he would have become immensely powerful and I can't imagine the emperor appointing someone weaker than that, which implies that SW at the end of Chapter 2 was a force to be feared even by DC members.

 

Hence I tend to believe SW being more powerful, but I am willing to change my view if someone could refute my points.

Actually, the Emperor might use someone weaker in light of Scourge's betrayal. Scourge working for the Jedi, even if he doesn't convert to the light (perhaps especially if he doesn't) is a terrible threat. From the Emperor's point of view the immortal unstoppable model for the Wrath failed him. Maybe he's thinking of going a more expendable route. Or maybe had the Knight not killed him/fatally wounded him he might've empowered the new Wrath further.

 

Anyway I admit the Warrior is the better combatant, by far. However if it came down to life or death between them I think the inquisitor would win simply because of all the sorcery shenanigans they're capable of (to say nothing of the potential sorcery they could obtain). Ultimately the Warrior is a weapon and they may very well be the ultimate weapon. But I think that the Inquisitor could be the next Emperor if left unchecked.

[DogeDandolo]

Really? That's why we have a male revan and a female Exile? You have to understand that Dragon Age is a different animal considering they have made, with inquisition, a method where you can have a game world that reflects on your previous choices. This isn't the case with SWTOR. Even if what you said is true then if you went assassin that would be "Canon" in your game and if you went Sorcerer then it's canon that your character is a sorcerer. So then it would be a comparison between the Sith Warrior vs Sorcerer or Assassin vs Sith Warrior.

 

We have a male Revan and female Exile because that was established in supplementary material that was out of Bioware's hands (not that the Exile is a Bioware character). Beyond that, none of Bioware's games -- most notably Mass Effect and Dragon Age, of course, being the only ones to spark sequels -- or Bioware-created supplementary material intentionally create a 'canon'. Player choice always overrides anything else (unless Bioware are dead-set on bringing back possibly dead characters, but even those always reference some kind of miraculous discovery). Even this game has been pretty good about this, with none of the content presupposing that you or one of the other character classes took one choice or the other. It's not very helpful for this kind of "who would win in a fight" discussion, but that's where it's at.

[Yezzan]

 

With this being the case the Warrior is capable of shielding himself from force attacks and is a capable duelist. He has a much higher skill in Lightsaber combat than Nox and is probably the greatest duelist in the galaxy (rivaled only by the Jedi Guardian)..

 

You cannot brush off force attacks from someone who is stronger in the force than you. And force bursts is not the same as force lightening. Look what happened to Revan when he tried to absorb the Emperor's lightening?

 

Ventress and Unduli force push cancelled out each other because their power was equal. However, if Ventress had used lightening instead, unduli would have lost. You can withstand a force push or force burst depending on it's potency. For example, Malgus stood firm against Satele's first force blast but barely survived the second, and had she not being a Jedi he would have died.

 

On the other hand, Malgus was easily withstood Lord Adraas' force lightening because Adraas was the weaker of the two.

 

Scourge, after under-going the transformation was more powerful than any force user, yet he couldn't kill the emperor.

 

The wrath could not brush off Nox's force lightening. Because You can't just brush off force lightening, you have to absorb it and channel it (become a conduit- Yoda v Pali / Revan v Niriss) or get fried. The problem with fighting a Sorcerer is that your lightsaber skills do not come into play until after you have successfully fended off the lightening barrage.

 

A sorcerer is not going to leap at you with a lightsaber, he's going to hurl lightening at you. Much like Niriss did, lucky for Revan, he knew how to absorb it and it was only possible because Revan was stronger (?) than Niriss, and Niriss did not know how to absorb her own lightening; Nox does (because of his fight with Thanaton).

Edited November 21, 2014 by Yezzan

[Girdeux]

 

Baras didn't "dominate" the Dark Council. The only reason Marr and the others put up with his ranting is because the 1% chance that he really was the Voice was too much risk to take when dealing with the Emperor,

 

Not at all. It was stated that some council members truly thought Baras was the voice, others didnt and others allied with Baras as it would increase there own personal power.

 

In terms of Wrath vs Nox the Wrath has the sole best feat in the game which is beating the emperors voice while being amped by Sel Makor.

[Darkelefantos]

The wrath could not brush off Nox's force lightening. Because You can't just brush off force lightening, you have to absorb it and channel it (become a conduit- Yoda v Pali / Revan v Niriss) or get fried. The problem with fighting a Sorcerer is that your lightsaber skills do not come into play until after you have successfully fended off the lightening barrage.

 

You don't have to absorb and channel it with your own body, you can just use your Lightsaber, as both the Wrath and the Hero of Tython display in their battles with Baras and the Emperor, respectively. Or if you want a movie example, Kenobi vs Dooku.

[Yezzan]

You don't have to absorb and channel it with your own body, you can just use your Lightsaber, as both the Wrath and the Hero of Tython display in their battles with Baras and the Emperor, respectively. Or if you want a movie example, Kenobi vs Dooku.

 

Comes back to the potency of the Lightening. Hero of tython et al tried to absorb it but failed. he only won the 2nd time around because the emperor was weakened. I hardly think Dooku qualifies as a Sorcerer hence his force lightening would be less potent than Nox's. Besides, your saber cannot absorb a lighting storm

 

Kenobi and Dooku was essentially on the same level. Baras was a warrior (?). Most sith use force lightening, only in SWTOR is it restricted to the inquisitor. I mean Malgus was shooting blue lightening left, right and center in the cinematic trailers

 

I might be wrong but I think Inquisitor's in general were more feared and we all know their light/saber staffs are more than decorative. We all know that force users are usually masters of at least one form of light-saber technique. There is just hardly ever a need for the sorcerer to use it; lightening, BAM! you dead, next!

[vathouille]

Gross overestimation of force lightning. Mastery of the force is not restricted to casting all forms of lightning, that is another game gimmick. Mastery of the force is also present in the knight/sw's kit as most of their abilities are beyond the scope of a normal human. Not even taking into account signature powers such as force grip, their kit demonstrates the use of the force for defensive purpose (undying rage/guarded by the Force / force camouflage ...). Just because their main weapon is the lightsaber does not mean that inquisitors are inherently stronger in the force that warriors. They make a different use of it though.

 

Knowing which Sith is the stronger is a valid question, but saying "this one wields a saber, this one throws lightning, ergo lightning dude is the stronger one" is a fallacy.

 

Some consider Baras a pansy, some, like me, consider Thanaton as a badly presented villain, that has to be beaten four times in the course of the storyline, but truth be told, both were members of the dark council with strong power bases and ace up the sleeves in terms of combat ability.

 

Another approach. Why would the emperor pick a Sith warrior as his Wrath if he knew that the council hosted a majority of powerful inquisitors that would be superior to his personal executioner?

 

One last thing about Bioware (or any other owner of the franchise) making things canon:

 

Keeping things undefined is a nice gesture to players, but I'm not phased if at some point they have to establish some basic facts about key characters. So they made Revan a man? Beats being forced to keep him under unisex robes and adressed amibiguously forever. Characters shrouded in darkness can be beneficial for a plot once in a while, but if all major formerly playable character were forced to remain nondescript forever to avoid ruffling the player's feathers, things would become dull rather quickly! think about the constraints in a visual environment, never being able to show the character in full light or unmasked. there would be lore constraints too. If said character was to have a legacy, then their spouses would have to be sexless too. Soo many limitations/

[Rhyltran]

We have a male Revan and female Exile because that was established in supplementary material that was out of Bioware's hands (not that the Exile is a Bioware character). Beyond that, none of Bioware's games -- most notably Mass Effect and Dragon Age, of course, being the only ones to spark sequels -- or Bioware-created supplementary material intentionally create a 'canon'. Player choice always overrides anything else (unless Bioware are dead-set on bringing back possibly dead characters, but even those always reference some kind of miraculous discovery). Even this game has been pretty good about this, with none of the content presupposing that you or one of the other character classes took one choice or the other. It's not very helpful for this kind of "who would win in a fight" discussion, but that's where it's at.

 

It wasn't out of bioware's hands. Bioware wrote the Revan book. There was a big thing on these forums where fans screamed at bioware for making them canon. Their lead writer is the one who decided what is and isn't canon based on player choices.

 

You cannot brush off force attacks from someone who is stronger in the force than you. And force bursts is not the same as force lightening. Look what happened to Revan when he tried to absorb the Emperor's lightening?

 

Ventress and Unduli force push cancelled out each other because their power was equal. However, if Ventress had used lightening instead, unduli would have lost. You can withstand a force push or force burst depending on it's potency. For example, Malgus stood firm against Satele's first force blast but barely survived the second, and had she not being a Jedi he would have died.

 

On the other hand, Malgus was easily withstood Lord Adraas' force lightening because Adraas was the weaker of the two.

 

Scourge, after under-going the transformation was more powerful than any force user, yet he couldn't kill the emperor.

 

The wrath could not brush off Nox's force lightening. Because You can't just brush off force lightening, you have to absorb it and channel it (become a conduit- Yoda v Pali / Revan v Niriss) or get fried. The problem with fighting a Sorcerer is that your lightsaber skills do not come into play until after you have successfully fended off the lightening barrage.

 

A sorcerer is not going to leap at you with a lightsaber, he's going to hurl lightening at you. Much like Niriss did, lucky for Revan, he knew how to absorb it and it was only possible because Revan was stronger (?) than Niriss, and Niriss did not know how to absorb her own lightening; Nox does (because of his fight with Thanaton).

 

As for this.. I'm completely aware of that which is my point. People are assuming just because the Warrior is a duelist he wouldn't be able to deal with Nox's ability to use the force. I mentioned that Nox is more knowledgeable in the force but that doesn't make him more powerful than the warrior. Lightsaber specialists have beaten force specialist's and vice versa. The warrior, if he was on an even level with Nox, would be able to defend himself against Nox's attacks. He wouldn't be completely helpless. In the end, whether you prefer flinging force attacks around or battling with a lightsaber.. neither version is inferior. It all comes down to the two respective Sith and how capable they are at dealing with the other.

 

The warrior has fought his fair share of "Sorcerers." and even duelists. He's handled both much like Nox has. I'm still of the opinion that the two are equal in terms of power.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Rhyltran

[CrutchCricket]

Not at all. It was stated that some council members truly thought Baras was the voice, others didnt and others allied with Baras as it would increase there own personal power.

 

In terms of Wrath vs Nox the Wrath has the sole best feat in the game which is beating the emperors voice while being amped by Sel Makor.

Fine, I generalized too much. Still, some not believing (and I think Marr is firmly in this category) and some in it for pure personal gain does not count as "domination".

 

As for the Emperor's Voice, again he wanted to be struck down. Someone who wants to die won't put up a defense. I think everything we saw was there was more Sel-Makor than the Emperor. And anyone can fight an avatar of Sel-Makor apparently (Voss planetary quest).

[CrutchCricket]

Gross overestimation of force lightning. Mastery of the force is not restricted to casting all forms of lightning, that is another game gimmick. Mastery of the force is also present in the knight/sw's kit as most of their abilities are beyond the scope of a normal human. Not even taking into account signature powers such as force grip, their kit demonstrates the use of the force for defensive purpose (undying rage/guarded by the Force / force camouflage ...). Just because their main weapon is the lightsaber does not mean that inquisitors are inherently stronger in the force that warriors. They make a different use of it though.

 

Knowing which Sith is the stronger is a valid question, but saying "this one wields a saber, this one throws lightning, ergo lightning dude is the stronger one" is a fallacy.

 

Some consider Baras a pansy, some, like me, consider Thanaton as a badly presented villain, that has to be beaten four times in the course of the storyline, but truth be told, both were members of the dark council with strong power bases and ace up the sleeves in terms of combat ability.

I agree that lightning is not automatically superior to lightsaber skills. However given that the definition of sorcerers at least is "having an affinity for the dark side itself" it does suggest the Inquisitor can wield far greater or more lethal/twisted power than the Warrior. Put it another way. They may be equal in terms of raw Force power level. But access to sorcery enables the inquisitor to come up with stuff the Warrior would have no defense for. For example see the final duel between Bane and Zannah.

 

Another approach. Why would the emperor pick a Sith warrior as his Wrath if he knew that the council hosted a majority of powerful inquisitors that would be superior to his personal executioner?

Well the Emperor empowered the last Wrath so he could easily do the same for this one. I've speculated that he might not want Scourge 2.0 exactly but I would think he would at least provide some protection against rituals the Warrior couldn't withstand normally.

[Eidolooon]

I doubt Wrath would have a problem with blocking sorcery, beating Darth Baras and Darth Ekkage, not to mention defeating sel makor in emperors vessel. wrath was pretty much force users predator. i dont know how much power nox would have to drain from new spirits to actually being able to kill the wrath, instead just fighting forever as matched enemies:rak_02:

[CrutchCricket]

I doubt Wrath would have a problem with blocking sorcery, beating Darth Baras and Darth Ekkage, not to mention defeating sel makor in emperors vessel. wrath was pretty much force users predator. i dont know how much power nox would have to drain from new spirits to actually being able to kill the wrath, instead just fighting forever as matched enemies:rak_02:

 

Baras wasn't a sorcerer and Ekkage was clearly listed as an assassin. We've established that lightning is not necessarily greater than lightsabers. Well let's add another one: lightning =/=sorcerer.

 

As for Sel-Makor again anyone can apparently defeat an avatar via the planetary quest. Given the Emperor's wishes I would actually expect he would be fighting Sel-Makor's control during the fight with the Wrath thus weakening the overall encounter.

[Rhyltran]

I agree that lightning is not automatically superior to lightsaber skills. However given that the definition of sorcerers at least is "having an affinity for the dark side itself" it does suggest the Inquisitor can wield far greater or more lethal/twisted power than the Warrior. Put it another way. They may be equal in terms of raw Force power level. But access to sorcery enables the inquisitor to come up with stuff the Warrior would have no defense for. For example see the final duel between Bane and Zannah.

 

 

Well the Emperor empowered the last Wrath so he could easily do the same for this one. I've speculated that he might not want Scourge 2.0 exactly but I would think he would at least provide some protection against rituals the Warrior couldn't withstand normally.

 

Zannah didn't defeat Bane because she was a sorceress. She defeated Bane simply because she was more powerful than him. That's the big thing about the rule of two. You find an apprentice with more potential than you who will learn everything you know and then surpass you. She was more powerful than Bane. Proof of this is the final test in that fight. Bane tried to transfer his essence into her but she overpowered him and kept control of her body. Zannah had more power than Bane did.

 

A similar but different outcome? The Jedi Knight vs The Emperor's Voice. The Emperor's Voice was clearly a sorcerer. The Jedi Knight overpowered him and won. Sure that's not the Sith Warrior but it's relevant because the Guardian is the Jedi's counterpart to the Sith Warrior. Sorcery does not automatically defeat Saber Skill and vice versa and here's why..

 

The Warrior has just as much Dark Side mastery as a Sorcerer but applies it in a different way. The Sorcerer relies on techniques that enable him to destroy foes without expending as much (physical) effort. Instead most of their fighting is like playing a game of chess and using their great power to fend off their opponents as well as break them. The Warrior uses his power to enhance his body, protect himself, and use his body as a living wrecking ball. Both require just as much study and technique as the other but both are performed differently.

 

The Sorcerer spends his time searching ancient tombs, reading lost text, and extracting secrets from artifacts/relics. The warrior spends the time that it takes the Sorcerer to do this in honing his own body, perfecting his use of a lightsaber, and techniques that allow him to break through his opponent's defenses so he could cut them down.

 

Two different methods to achieve the same result. Overpowering your adversaries.

[CrutchCricket]

Zannah didn't defeat Bane because she was a sorceress. She defeated Bane simply because she was more powerful than him. That's the big thing about the rule of two. You find an apprentice with more potential than you who will learn everything you know and then surpass you. She was more powerful than Bane. Proof of this is the final test in that fight. Bane tried to transfer his essence into her but she overpowered him and kept control of her body. Zannah had more power than Bane did.

True but the point is Bane had no defense against those dark side tendrils. None. It wouldn't have mattered if he was on the same power level his strengths had nothing to offer to counter that. Even if he was still bolstered by the orbalisks he still would've lost to that.

 

A similar but different outcome? The Jedi Knight vs The Emperor's Voice. The Emperor's Voice was clearly a sorcerer. The Jedi Knight overpowered him and won. Sure that's not the Sith Warrior but it's relevant because the Guardian is the Jedi's counterpart to the Sith Warrior.

Ehhh... he was the Chosen One. I'm tempted to agree but seeing as how such a big deal was made about the Knight being the one in the vision who destroys the Emperor, it clouds things a bit. It's almost plot armor.

 

Sorcery does not automatically defeat Saber Skill and vice versa and here's why..

The Warrior has just as much Dark Side mastery as a Sorcerer but applies it in a different way. The Sorcerer relies on techniques that enable him to destroy foes without expending as much (physical) effort. Instead most of their fighting is like playing a game of chess and using their great power to fend off their opponents as well as break them. The Warrior uses his power to enhance his body, protect himself, and use his body as a living wrecking ball. Both require just as much study and technique as the other but both are performed differently.

 

The Sorcerer spends his time searching ancient tombs, reading lost text, and extracting secrets from artifacts/relics. The warrior spends the time that it takes the Sorcerer to do this in honing his own body, perfecting his use of a lightsaber, and techniques that allow him to break through his opponent's defenses so he could cut them down.

 

Two different methods to achieve the same result. Overpowering your adversaries.

A slight correction: the Warrior has just as much power as the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer, by virtue of being a sorcerer is the ultimate master of pure dark side.

 

Really in lore the lines would be far less distinct. A warrior would still be able to learn certain techniques of a more mystical nature and a sorcerer would still be a formidable opponent in pure combat. It's the gameplay that forces them apart. The reason I think sorcery still has an edge is because of its rarity and its downright eldritch tendencies. Furthermore it works at a level beyond the physical which few can understand and even fewer think about. Not that the physical prowess of a Warrior comes easily but the concepts involved are closer to daily perceptions. We're physical, we think in physical terms. Destroy physical bodies, protect our own. Sorcery is mental and beyond. Could the Warrior investigate beyond the physical and prepare somewhat for attacks of that nature? Of course. Maybe not as well as a sorcerer but enough to hold his own long enough to bring his own strengths into play and in that case, win.

 

But in our case the Warrior never really deals with much mystical stuff and there's no opportunity to ask about it or seek it out. So I can agree to this much: if the Warrior was able to look into some protection from sorcery and master it such that it allowed him time to use his strengths to bring down Nox he could win. Assuming of course Nox himself didn't train more in physical combat and successfully defend until he could bring a more potent spell to bear.

 

Otherwise I'll just leave this with another thought: the craziest, most over the top things ever done with the dark side (exploding a star, creating a black hole, creating wounds or outright gaps in the Force) were done with sorcery. On the martial might of things the greatest feat would probably be Starkiller pulling down a Star Destroyer. This incidentally also provides an example of a warrior being able to resist a sorcerer (final battle with the Emperor) long enough to achieve his objective (even though he dies). So... there's that.

[Rhyltran]

True but the point is Bane had no defense against those dark side tendrils. None. It wouldn't have mattered if he was on the same power level his strengths had nothing to offer to counter that. Even if he was still bolstered by the orbalisks he still would've lost to that.

 

 

Ehhh... he was the Chosen One. I'm tempted to agree but seeing as how such a big deal was made about the Knight being the one in the vision who destroys the Emperor, it clouds things a bit. It's almost plot armor.

 

 

A slight correction: the Warrior has just as much power as the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer, by virtue of being a sorcerer is the ultimate master of pure dark side.

 

Really in lore the lines would be far less distinct. A warrior would still be able to learn certain techniques of a more mystical nature and a sorcerer would still be a formidable opponent in pure combat. It's the gameplay that forces them apart. The reason I think sorcery still has an edge is because of its rarity and its downright eldritch tendencies. Furthermore it works at a level beyond the physical which few can understand and even fewer think about. Not that the physical prowess of a Warrior comes easily but the concepts involved are closer to daily perceptions. We're physical, we think in physical terms. Destroy physical bodies, protect our own. Sorcery is mental and beyond. Could the Warrior investigate beyond the physical and prepare somewhat for attacks of that nature? Of course. Maybe not as well as a sorcerer but enough to hold his own long enough to bring his own strengths into play and in that case, win.

 

But in our case the Warrior never really deals with much mystical stuff and there's no opportunity to ask about it or seek it out. So I can agree to this much: if the Warrior was able to look into some protection from sorcery and master it such that it allowed him time to use his strengths to bring down Nox he could win. Assuming of course Nox himself didn't train more in physical combat and successfully defend until he could bring a more potent spell to bear.

 

Otherwise I'll just leave this with another thought: the craziest, most over the top things ever done with the dark side (exploding a star, creating a black hole, creating wounds or outright gaps in the Force) were done with sorcery. On the martial might of things the greatest feat would probably be Starkiller pulling down a Star Destroyer. This incidentally also provides an example of a warrior being able to resist a sorcerer (final battle with the Emperor) long enough to achieve his objective (even though he dies). So... there's that.

 

There is a way to deal with the tendrils that a warrior could have done if they're skilled enough. Be faster than Zannah's reaction time. One could argue, however, that the main reason Bane wasn't able to defend against it is because he wasn't powerful enough. If you were strong enough to shield yourself from it could you have? We wouldn't know. Bane wasn't on Zannah's level. Remember that in the rule of two every future apprentice is taught everything their master knew. We know that future Sith didn't use Zannah's technique so it couldn't have been some unbeatable power.

 

Not to mention have we seen anything Nox has done that would leave the Sith Warrior unable to combat it? I don't think so. Everything can either be evaded, blocked, and dealt with. This leaves it in a contest of skill between the two Sith. Galen Marek is a great example. He was trained as an assassin but was able to hold off Palpatine. Palpatines wasn't just a Sith Sorcerer. Palpatine was both a warrior and a sorcerer. He mastered ALL SEVEN lightsaber forms as well as everything the force had to offer. This isn't "He was good with a lightsaber too." he was better than the best Sith duelists in history and better than the best Sorcerers.

[vathouille]

I think that lore-wise, the class distinctions introduced in the TOR games did more harm than good.

 

Not only on the lightsaber vs. force wielding distinction, but also on the general temper and the way to approach things. It seems logical to have warriors favouring a frontal approach and inquisitors being manipulative, but that is not mandatory. A cunning and manipulative warrior or a very direct sorcerer don't seem unbelievable, merely less likely.

 

Back to the original point, there are some very valid arguments for both sides, especially from people who are not blindly championing one or the other, and it is quite interesting to read, but in the end, what we know of wrath/wraith is roughly 35 minutes of cinematics with a lot of gaps that the player has to fill by himself.

 

While i would expect Jedi and Sith to train for years to develop their martial or Force skills, our characters develop so much faster due to game mechanics. One can only ride the "prodigal/unique/chosen one" argument for so long until it collapses. Noxx is renowned for going for slavery to Dark council in such a short time, but wrath goes from acolyte to ... well, Wrath in the same amount, which is just as impressive and hints at a comparable potential.

 

It's like Sergei Lukyanenko (Night/Day/Twilight watch writer) who classifies mages in his books by "power level", 7 being the weakest, and down to 1 for stronger ones. Mages below 1 are "beyond classification". At this level, they simply have such an amount of power at their disposal that trying to classify them based on this alone is irrelevant. Force wielding characters in this game are like this (when they reach the end of their story class that is)

[SithKoriandr]

I think that lore-wise, the class distinctions introduced in the TOR games did more harm than good.

 

Not only on the lightsaber vs. force wielding distinction, but also on the general temper and the way to approach things. It seems logical to have warriors favouring a frontal approach and inquisitors being manipulative, but that is not mandatory. A cunning and manipulative warrior or a very direct sorcerer don't seem unbelievable, merely less likely.

 

Back to the original point, there are some very valid arguments for both sides, especially from people who are not blindly championing one or the other, and it is quite interesting to read, but in the end, what we know of wrath/wraith is roughly 35 minutes of cinematics with a lot of gaps that the player has to fill by himself.

 

While i would expect Jedi and Sith to train for years to develop their martial or Force skills, our characters develop so much faster due to game mechanics. One can only ride the "prodigal/unique/chosen one" argument for so long until it collapses. Noxx is renowned for going for slavery to Dark council in such a short time, but wrath goes from acolyte to ... well, Wrath in the same amount, which is just as impressive and hints at a comparable potential.

 

It's like Sergei Lukyanenko (Night/Day/Twilight watch writer) who classifies mages in his books by "power level", 7 being the weakest, and down to 1 for stronger ones. Mages below 1 are "beyond classification". At this level, they simply have such an amount of power at their disposal that trying to classify them based on this alone is irrelevant. Force wielding characters in this game are like this (when they reach the end of their story class that is)

 

Why I'd say all four force users are equal in terms of force/lightsaber. They're basically the chosen ones of this generation.

 

I'd give the nudge to Inquisitor simply because they're the ones with a cult/army/etc at their disposal.

[Exosasa]

Power isn't just who can 1v1 the other. Look at their powerbases (see what I did there?)

 

Inquisitor

 

- Multiple Moffs and their fleets

- The muda-truckin Silencer

- Being a DC member, he has all sorts of resources, especially ancient mystical ritual stuff. Sithspawn anyone?

- A cult that apparently controls a substantial part of the Hutt economy.

- Much more military authority than the Wrath

 

Warrior

- Senile hand peeps

- Like nothing else because he's powerless when everyone thinks the Emperor is dead, and no on really likes him enough to support him except Darth Ravage, who no one likes anyway so yah.

 

 

So yah.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Exosasa

[CrutchCricket]

There is a way to deal with the tendrils that a warrior could have done if they're skilled enough. Be faster than Zannah's reaction time. One could argue, however, that the main reason Bane wasn't able to defend against it is because he wasn't powerful enough. If you were strong enough to shield yourself from it could you have? We wouldn't know. Bane wasn't on Zannah's level. Remember that in the rule of two every future apprentice is taught everything their master knew. We know that future Sith didn't use Zannah's technique so it couldn't have been some unbeatable power.

Dark Side Tendrils are said to annihilate all matter they come in contact with and injure you with the full scope of the void of the dark side. It doesn't seem like there is any possible resistance. You could dodge but again you're answering a fundamentally mental attack with a physical defense. Even with all the speed the Force can give, are you faster than a thought?

 

As for future Sith it may not have been documented (we know nothing about the Sith between Cognus and Tenebrae). Or Cognus got around it with her precognition/Force disruption and having no affinity for it herself did not pass it on directly. Surprisingly Wookiepedia lists Kyp Durron as a user, though maybe he used a slightly different attack.

 

Not to mention have we seen anything Nox has done that would leave the Sith Warrior unable to combat it? I don't think so. Everything can either be evaded, blocked, and dealt with. This leaves it in a contest of skill between the two Sith. Galen Marek is a great example. He was trained as an assassin but was able to hold off Palpatine. Palpatines wasn't just a Sith Sorcerer. Palpatine was both a warrior and a sorcerer. He mastered ALL SEVEN lightsaber forms as well as everything the force had to offer. This isn't "He was good with a lightsaber too." he was better than the best Sith duelists in history and better than the best Sorcerers.

By that token we haven't seen the Warrior deal with any sorcery or prepare for it so he may well be more vulnerable than you care to admit. Beyond this point we'd have to get into speculation as to what Nox or the Wrath might learn that would give them an edge and/or protect them better. All I'm saying is the potential for sorcery is greater than that of martial strength. Obviously whatever individual skill level they are each at when this hypothetical confrontation occurs will be a deciding factor.

 

As for Marek, yeah all power to him. Palpatine messed up. He should've tried to get Marek as his apprentice for real. A few rebels and dissidents could wait.

Edited November 22, 2014 by CrutchCricket