Yet another game reports that Raiders and PVP players are a vast minority.....

[thewitchdoctor]

I'm not sure gear is the problem. I am not an ops player, but I've been in a few sm DF/DP guild runs(my gear's augmented 168 gear with 180 hilts, if it matters) with mandatory TeamSpeak, people explaining tactics and so on, minimum gear standards, 30k hp for everyone, etc, and we still never even tried the Council. The ops leader usually said - no, people, we won't even attempt it, I can see we'll wipe. And he probably was right.

 

If you are indicative of the rest of your ops group - and you are implying that you are - then you need a new ops leader.

 

The Council at DP is a fun fight. If your ops leader is afraid of wiping while you learn: replace him/her. That's just idiotic. If you don't fall off the bike a few times, you'll never learn to ride it.

[jstankaroslo]

.

If you want to do ops and dont want to join a guild that can help walk you through then i dont know what to tell you.

At least for hm fp if you tell them up front you dont know the fight they will explaing the boss mechanics. As a tank though you probably need to go through it a few times to get the hang of it

 

Hey, not my cup of tea doing ops. I wish I could enjoy the cutscenes though.

Again, just pointing a possible reason for low population on operations, not vouching for better conditions for myself

[thewitchdoctor]

And lastly: when you see window-lickers demanding higher gear than what the HMFP or Ops even drops, that is usually a sign of risk/reward inflation (they just want the comms and to go as fast as they can through it) or pure ignorance (usually because they themselves couldn't manage to do the content until they finally overgeared it themselves).

[TravelersWay]

Now, note....though 14 games and counting now have reported the same thing at different times over the last 10 years, that does not mean this game is typical...it is still possible that this game breaks the mold, so to speak, and has a majority PVP and/or Raid playerbase.

 

There are a few things that stand out that might point to this possibility....first, this game does not have a typical cash flow setup with respect to F2P/Sub players and who pays the most, and also the fact that this game now has casual friendly raids and has had bolster for PVP for a while now.

 

But as time passes, more studies are released and more games go public with playerbase information, IMO it becomes less and less likely.

 

A few points that Turbine reported with respect to LotRO....

1) Raiders make up a very small portion of the playerbase.

2) PvMP (their version of PVP) is a slightly larger group of players, but combined they still represent less than 10 percent of the base.

3) The vase majority of forum posters are Raiders and/or PvMP players.

 

That is the 14th public source I have provided from the MMO market so far, as I promised to do long ago when I was challenged to prove that Raiders and PVP players are a minority of the playerbase, generally speaking, in MMOs (unless they are PVP focused). I would once again call to those that asked me to provide this info....here is your next bit.

 

Source

 

I will continue to post more information, as well as links to two new studies that are being released shortly for the 2013/2014 market in December. I expect the results will be typical.

 

Well done, milord!

 

There is no reason (and no evidence) that SWTOR is any different than any other MMO in this regard. As you mentioned, there is evidence for the last 10 years that PvPers and Raiders (aka Hardcore PvErs) are the minority of gamers in the world-wide community of gaming. I have seen reports and studies of this that date back even longer (encompassing gaming as a whole and not just MMO specific). In the end, all one needs is a bit of common sense to know that "casual" gamers have been and will always be the majority of "gamers" in the community.

 

Just like sports - there are a vast larger number of recreational enthusiasts (i.e. "casuals") participating in any given sport than there are the professionals or dedicated enthusiasts. That is the nature of society, and the nature of society is what many gamers tend to forget about (or ignore) when stating things that have no basis in fact.

[DomiSotto]

After starting in February, I am L53, doing the 3rd map on Corellia (with an Alt at 52 about to start Corellia with slightly over a mil, an alt on L39 at Hoth & the other alts mostly on L19-21 with about 100-200 thou per head and 3 more crafts in baby stages of development).

 

I have 5 Planetary comms, a collection of L49 crafted blues and 4 or 5 pieces of completely L50 modded gear split between Riggs and the Smuggler, about 350 thou credits (after last training session) and a faint idea that after Corellia I should switch back to Treek and attempt Illum. While finding time to relogin 7-8 alts to craft to get some credits flowing.

 

There are endless annoying triangles with ops on the Fleet. I am clearing out old bonus series between Corellia maps. I am still two unlocks short from customizing my hubby's account, but screw it, I am putting CC into it, not creds. I joined a Guild yesterday on a lark and went for a KYD run for the first time (mixed feelings). I am wondering if finishing Ch 2 on the lower alt will give me an edge by adding a third buff (right!).

 

See, being a Noob is not an easy undertaking!

Edited July 4, 2014 by DomiSotto

[PLynkes]

"Vast minority" is an odd phrase to use in this context. Its use muddles your argument somewhat.

 

 

You do know that the word "vast" means very, very, very big, don't you? Taking the phrase "vast majority" and swapping the word 'minority' into it doesn't make it an opposite. A "vast minority" would be a very big minority indeed, something approaching 49% of the player base, I guess. I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean.

Edited July 4, 2014 by PLynkes

[ThorgrimLutgen]

"Vast minority" is an odd phrase to use in this context. Its use muddles your argument somewhat.

 

 

You do know that the word "vast" means very, very, very big, don't you? Taking the phrase "vast majority" and swapping the word 'minority' into it doesn't make it an opposite. A "vast minority" would be a very big minority indeed, something approaching 49% of the player base, I guess. I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean.

 

Well, vast minority is in fact an oxymoron at best. Miniscule minority would work better and indeed be the opposite of vast majority.

[errant_knight]

I'm not sure gear is the problem. I am not an ops player, but I've been in a few sm DF/DP guild runs(my gear's augmented 168 gear with 180 hilts, if it matters) with mandatory TeamSpeak, people explaining tactics and so on, minimum gear standards, 30k hp for everyone, etc, and we still never even tried the Council. The ops leader usually said - no, people, we won't even attempt it, I can see we'll wipe. And he probably was right.

 

Which means - to me - that the ops, even so-called "story mode", are not meant for casual players like me. I have all classes and nearly all advanced classes on level 55, I've seen all the stories, done the sm FPs and heroics(though macrobinocular/seeker droid H4 missions nearly killed me), but I can't get to watch the last DP cutscene. Or most of other ops cutscenes, for that matter. Because you need to know tactics or be wiped, and knowing tactics doesn't mean reading it at dulfy's - just like with Mandalorian raiders, you need four or five runs of the op to remember everything well.

 

So... I really think we either need a casual mode for these operation, or a solo mode, or a better bolster, or something that would allow casual players to get off seasoned raiders' backs, get our cutscenes, and leave you experienced players alone to do your sm/hm/nim runs.

 

(Because I honestly can't stand to do another ten runs of DP (which includes an hour of standing around and waiting for people, and then some waiting inside the op), just for a tiiiny chance the op won't disband after weekly, or wipe multiple times, or I don't get kicked because I don't have ultimate gear - just to see one small cutscene).

 

There's no reason the group you described couldn't have taken on the council based on gear. Yes, you probably would have died more than once learning the mechanics, but that's par for the course. You may have had to try another day, but on that day, you'd have come in knowing a lot more than before and had a better chance of success. You should be able to expect that your group will at least try unless it's a weekly only group or that the group has a problem of some kind.

 

Everyone has to stand around waiting for a pug to form. Everyone dies multiple times on some raids. That's part of doing ops for everyone, not just new players.

 

If the raid leader doesn't want to finish, there may have been a good reason for it in terms of the group, as well. Were the healers unable to keep up or cleanse causing repeated death? We're people not listening to instructions and standing in stupid in every fight? Was dps too low so that you were hitting enrage timers consistently? Raids don't require raid experience, but they do require that all the players in the raid listen, display situational awareness and know their class.

Edited July 4, 2014 by errant_knight

[jorill]

Hey, not my cup of tea doing ops. I wish I could enjoy the cutscenes though.

Again, just pointing a possible reason for low population on operations, not vouching for better conditions for myself

 

i know its probably not what you are looking for but you can watch it on youtube i believe although i know its not the same as your character. I think that is why they are doing the story now in the tactical flashpoints so everyone can see it since the tacticals are pretty easy

[DomiSotto]

Honestly, I am still not sure as to why learning through dying has to be such a vaunted feature of the content. Is it some kind of a clever way to carter to a teen rebellion without a risk angst wish-fulfillment? Is it an obscure Planscape Torment reference? Why is it so important to die as a part of this game? Am I that lonely in my obtuse desire to keep my companion and my toon alive? Edited July 4, 2014 by DomiSotto

[errant_knight]

Honestly, I am still not sure as to why learning through dying has to be such a vaunted feature of the content. Is it some kind of a clever way to carter to a teen rebellion without a risk angst wish-fulfillment? Is it an obscure Planscape Torment reference? Why is it so important to die as a part of this game?

 

Because if it can't kill you, it's too easy. There's no satisfaction in conquering easy. Also, SM is a teaching step to HM. If it's trivial, you would learn nothing.

Edited July 4, 2014 by errant_knight

[Vhaegrant]

Honestly, even getting the character fitted out into Level 50 Makeb gear takes a lot of time and many-many milk runs for a solo player. Because there is a companion you need to equip as a solo. It takes (roughly) 300 comms to equip two chars through comms, meaning 100 Heroic 4+ missions. Of course, there are FPs, but repair bills if you are underlevelled are steep, and if you are underequipped you will die a lot. So, it feels hopeless.

 

And, after you do that, apparently you are horridly undergeared anyway. I just do not understand the point of making story-mode things that hard? Is there a point?

 

I usually find it more time effective to drop a high level character (lvl 50+) back to Tatooine and run the heroics for their Planetary Com rewards, along with random com drops from mobs in the heroics I usually get in the region of 20-25 coms. I've also unlocked the GSI quest chain and get those quests done at the same time (although the Heroic 2+ on that could be tricky if you are undergeared) And, as an additional bonus, I get to mess about on one of my favourite Star Wars planets

It's good to find a planet that is in a level bracket you can complete the heroics easily, and that the Heroics actually provide Planetary coms and not just lockboxes. There also tends to be orange gear as quest rewards, specific to the class, so not always useful for companions but there is a heroic on Tat that rewards an offhand which is a quick and painless way of getting one (or go to the Nar Shaddaa com vendor on fleet and spend 14 PC on one.)

 

Otherwise as I level I try and replace mods using Planetary coms as infrequently as possible to keep a reasonable stock on hand, only purchasing the main hand weapon (barrel/hilt), this means I usually have a good stash of Planetary coms when that character hits 50.

If you are lucky the gear you upgrade with level 50 coms can be handed down to your companion when you upgrade yours to level 53 coms. Certain classes such as Trooper will find this much easier (all companions except the droid use heavy Aim based armour).

 

Remember that the mods purchased with planetary coms can be sent between characters, they are only bound once you place them in an item. But, you can only purchase them at the correct level. Handy to remember that highlevel alt to feed back when other characters hit 50.

 

A good full week run through all the available dailies (Belsavis, Ilum, Black Hole*, Section X*, CZ-198*, Makeb*, Oricon* - *weekly bonus quest for completing all dailies) will probably kick back somewhere in the region of 2million creds if you chose to convert Basic coms to Vials of Isotope-5. I've found selling off the Vials gives a better credit return and I can then go and purchase the level 53 mods from the GTN. This way I also avoid having to pay the mod removal cost for using armour I actually like the look of

 

If you have the time just do one standard level 50 a day through the GF for the 10 elite coms (used to be basic ones) and also the two Weekly FP quests (can't remember their names, the first is for completing any FP using the GF, the second is completing 5 Tactical FPs, the only restriction is you can't limit the choice of which FP to run)

Tactical FPs are far easier to blast through as they don't rely on the trinity, as long as you have someone willing to break from boss fights and click on a heal terminal you should be fine. (although it's nice to see the Czerka boss fights have been fixed to provide at least a modicum of challenge )

 

All in all, it is really easy to get a good set of gear for solo PvE play that puts you well up the rung for entering group content.

 

If you are really being as conservative as possible with your coms and gear between characters, it may be worthwhile running Reputation with one of the various factions for access to the reputation gear. It's fairly cheap and bound to legacy so once you've modded them up you can send the set between characters.

Handy to have a pre-built set of level 50 Legacy gear with Aim to send between Treeks (Cunning is a good one as well as most companion healers use Cunning as their stat, I think the only exception is the Troopers companion)

It takes the pressure off having to grind out 156 Planetary coms for both Player and companion. And by the time the player character is ready to replace their level 50 PCom gear with level 53 mods they should have a good stash of Planetary Coms to purchase mods for their next alt.

About the only thing you have to provide for every characters chosen companion would be earpiece, implants, mainhand (although most healers use pistols, and you can pick up a legacy pistol fairly easily) and offhand.

 

After that lengthy post, it's worth remembering that sometime in the not too distant future there should be a Makeb sized expansion hitting with an increase in level cap. When that hits you should probably be able to bypass certain gear stages with ease.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[DomiSotto]

yes, I am talking H4+ on the low level planets (mine is Balmorra). It's still 3 comms for H4+, so you might harvest 12-15 comms per planet, if H4+ pay back comms.

 

My brush with Voss-Kaa showed that we cannot play H4+ on level 48 with the equipment we have (we passed two H4+ on L45 and 47, but could not do the third, L48). Which is indicative that the GF FPs are undoable for my character if she gets thrown in the L50+ pot.

 

And nothing in this game terrifies me more than the prospect of another level cap increase tbh if it as poorly supported in terms of crafting gear and comm gearing as the L50-55 are. Does L50+ gear for comms even exist?

[Vhaegrant]

Honestly, I am still not sure as to why learning through dying has to be such a vaunted feature of the content. Is it some kind of a clever way to carter to a teen rebellion without a risk angst wish-fulfillment? Is it an obscure Planscape Torment reference? Why is it so important to die as a part of this game? Am I that lonely in my obtuse desire to keep my companion and my toon alive?

 

You have to remember that a large chunk of gaming is centered on a challenge and overcoming that challenge as a means to validate your experience.

Just as importantly I think it's important that the 'confrontational' (PvP) and 'challenge' (PvE) based mindsets realise that there is also a player base that enjoys the game for its non-challenge elements such as story, companions and customisation (more of a 'Sims' mindset).

I would have loved to have seen more solo themed puzzle elements put in the game, so far I have only found one example outside of Operation mechanics... 'Traken 4's Legacy' (or close to that name) a heroic on Republic Balmorra (It's listed as a heroic and sits in a heroic zone but if you bypass the mobs the puzzle has no combat element)

[LanceCorporalDan]

Honestly, I am still not sure as to why learning through dying has to be such a vaunted feature of the content. Is it some kind of a clever way to carter to a teen rebellion without a risk angst wish-fulfillment? Is it an obscure Planscape Torment reference? Why is it so important to die as a part of this game? Am I that lonely in my obtuse desire to keep my companion and my toon alive?

 

I've always said the hardest lessons learned are the best ones learned. Of course I think difficulty should reflect reward. But it seems death in a game where progress is obtained through combat victory is a fair play.

[thewitchdoctor]

And nothing in this game terrifies me more than the prospect of another level cap increase tbh if it as poorly supported in terms of crafting gear and comm gearing as the L50-55 are. Does L50+ gear for comms even exist?

 

Please see my response to you here: An answer.

[DomiSotto]

You have to remember that a large chunk of gaming is centered on a challenge and overcoming that challenge as a means to validate your experience.

 

Which is why the game posses two additional tiers of difficulty above the SM. Not to mention the PvP and Starfighter. The mode that provides you with a normal gameplay is lacking after a certain point of the game, once it breaks down into a collection of hard missions. If they are to make a coherent story, they need to be nerfed to a story-level and supported by the equipment the way it is up to L50.

[Vhaegrant]

yes, I am talking H4+ on the low level planets (mine is Balmorra). It's still 3 comms for H4+, so you might harvest 12-15 comms per planet, if H4+ pay back comms.

 

My brush with Voss-Kaa showed that we cannot play H4+ on level 48 with the equipment we have (we passed two H4+ on L45 and 47, but could not do the third, L48). Which is indicative that the GF FPs are undoable for my character if she gets thrown in the L50+ pot.

 

And nothing in this game terrifies me more than the prospect of another level cap increase tbh if it as poorly supported in terms of crafting gear and comm gearing as the L50-55 are. Does L50+ gear for comms even exist?

 

To be honest I've never bothered with regular gear once I get a character past level 15 it's Orange (customisable with mods) gear all the way.

I find green armourings from my cybertech keep the expense of using Planetary coms to a minimum. (Armourings and barrels/hilts cost 7 planetary coms, while mods and enhancements only cost 2)

Being overlevelled through a quest zone more than makes up for using green in those slots. And it's a lot cheaper to craft more every 4-6 levels yourself than it is to buy them.

 

Crafting for profit is largely centered on getting access to those near top tier schematics (usually the tier below the best). Beyond that crafting mods is largely redundant in the 50+range, you use ones from Makeb vendor (at 50) or purchase level 53 from the GTN (you get a five piece set of level 53 gear the first time you run Oricon, handy if you've not got by that stage but also not bound so you can sell that off on the GTN to recoup some of your expense)

[DomiSotto]

Right. Just to give you an idea of the exact depth of my suckage as a player, all my gear is modded with blue crafted L49 that are slowly replaced by comm-bought L50 purples. And for the duration of the game, I keep all gear blue updating every 4 levels religiously as a combination of crafted gear and modded gear (and for the next generation I am crafting all purple parts for the weapons). I use PCs and supplementary crafting skills as much as I can to relieve pressure on my unfortunate cybertech. Up till now I did not have access to Biochem, but my second gen of characters will starting at L21. Edited July 4, 2014 by DomiSotto

[Vhaegrant]

Right. Just to give you an idea of the exact depth of my suckage as a player, all my gear is modded with blue crafted L49 that are slowly replaced by comm-bought L50 purples. And for the duration of the game, I keep all gear blue updating every 4 levels religiously as a combination of crafted gear and modded gear (and for the next generation I am crafting all purple parts for the weapons). I use PCs and supplementary crafting skills as much as I can to relieve pressure on my unfortunate cybertech. Up till now I did not have access to Biochem, but my second gen of characters will starting at L21.

 

I don't think that should be regarded as 'Suckage'.

It's very difficult of us 'Founders' to remember what the playthrough was like on our first character. I've unlocked the 4 class buffs, the 8 heroic moment buffs and the +500 presence buff (all 40 companions unlocked and a human character to level 50). Not to mention a 15 minute run through Ilum can generate 90k to send back to a starting character. So, it's very hard to get a feel for how well a player with a single character needs to be equipped.

 

A general yardstick I adopt though, is I only update my gear while levelling if I start to struggle against the Gold mobs.

 

Also, some Advanced Classes are going to have a different levelling experience to others.

Stealth, 60sec crowd controls and self heals can really make the game feel like a breeze, when compared to the long slog of tanking your way through it

Edited July 4, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[DomiSotto]

As a Founder, your play was against overwhelming odds. Such as not having planetary comms pool, and plenty other barriers that were removed. At any rate, I should whine less, and try more

[PLynkes]

Well, vast minority is in fact an oxymoron at best. Miniscule minority would work better and indeed be the opposite of vast majority.

 

 

It isn't necessarily an oxymoron. The Chinese represent a minority of the world's population (somewhere around 20% I think). There are still over a billion of them. I'd call that a vast minority.

[errant_knight]

Hmm...why aren't you doing dailies and level 50 fps for classic comms? Or are you? those will bet you gear for makeb. Makeb will get you to 55. Then you can do oricon and get a full set of free gear just for the story quests.

[errant_knight]

I don't think that should be regarded as 'Suckage'.

It's very difficult of us 'Founders' to remember what the playthrough was like on our first character. I've unlocked the 4 class buffs, the 8 heroic moment buffs and the +500 presence buff (all 40 companions unlocked and a human character to level 50). Not to mention a 15 minute run through Ilum can generate 90k to send back to a starting character. So, it's very hard to get a feel for how well a player with a single character needs to be equipped.

 

A general yardstick I adopt though, is I only update my gear while levelling if I start to struggle against the Gold mobs.

 

Also, some Advanced Classes are going to have a different levelling experience to others.

Stealth, 60sec crowd controls and self heals can really make the game feel like a breeze, when compared to the long slog of tanking your way through it

 

He's not wrong, lol.

[Vhaegrant]

Hmm...why aren't you doing dailies and level 50 fps for classic comms? Or are you? those will bet you gear for makeb. Makeb will get you to 55. Then you can do oricon and get a full set of free gear just for the story quests.

 

Classic Coms are a redundant step now, given how much easier it is to stock up on Basic Coms or purchase the level 53 mods off the GTN.

Given the short window of time you have to earn the Classic coms it is very unlikey you will have that many to spend before you are onto Basic coms and better.

At best I'd say they offer an intermediate relic that isn't that bad for solo content, or maybe gearing out a companion in a full set of gear should you accidentally forget you have 1,000 classic coms in your inventory

Edited July 4, 2014 by Vhaegrant