Yet another game reports that Raiders and PVP players are a vast minority.....

[ivanhedgehog]

most raiders i know dont expect you to study the fights from youtube before hand in story mode. The only exception of this would possibly be tanks as you kind of need to know what you are doing beforehand as the fight hinges on you knowing mechanics to some degree. It would be nice if you did but i consider that going beyond what would be expected. If its hm than yes you should know the fights

 

In most entry level op groups this is what i would want from a new person

 

1) voice com, the only reason not to have it would be if everyone knows the fights and the tank parts arent overly complicated.

 

2) gear at level. This is a gear based game so just make sure you are at adequate level

 

3) Know your class. You dont have to have the optimal rotation but at least know you class to some degree and not be spamming basic attacks all the time ( yes i have played with people that have done that)

 

4) follow directions. Its ok to make mistakes as long as you arent making them over and over again.

 

5) stims. You should bring appropriate stims for operations. The leader should check for everyone and in most groups people usually have extras. This should be something you get used to doing though and you can get top end ones for 10k each and you only need 2 for 1 op at most.

 

6) have fun and dont be a jerk. should be self explanatory. Wiping isnt the end of the world. You learn more usually from mistakes. Everyone was where you were at some point if they are raiding.

 

I used to do saturday guild runs for coms. we had 7 regulars that were well geared and we would often pick up 1 or 2 pugs. A few times the guys would be newbies in leveling green and we would just tell them to follow along best they could and need on everything because we didnt need it. One of these guys was having a blast running ops for the first time so we ended running pretty much all day with him. invited him to the guild and he is a progression raider now. being nice and laid back paid off. we use mumble or vent but half of that is just talking back and forth.

[JimG]

The raw number of players is one thing, but I'm sure Raiders and PVP'ers spend a lot more time playing the game than the average casual PVE'er. That's also probably why they have a greater presence in forums than their raw percentage of the player population would suggest.

[LordArtemis]

The raw number of players is one thing, but I'm sure Raiders and PVP'ers spend a lot more time playing the game than the average casual PVE'er. That's also probably why they have a greater presence in forums than their raw percentage of the player population would suggest.

 

According to two studies that I posted links to a while back, casual players are the largest group of players, depending on game type naturally, but the most transient players. Hardcore players are the minority, but the most loyal.

 

One of those studies defined hardcore players as "players that are driven by reward and recognition" (paraphrasing naturally), and I took that to mean that hardcores are driven by reward, casuals by content. Very general naturally, but a simple definition.

Edited July 5, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Tsillah]

The raw number of players is one thing, but I'm sure Raiders and PVP'ers spend a lot more time playing the game than the average casual PVE'er. That's also probably why they have a greater presence in forums than their raw percentage of the player population would suggest.

 

Perhaps the average casual pve'ers but I do believe there are a fair amount of more casual PvE'ers who do spend a lot of time in game. People often think in terms of hardcore vs casual but there's a group in the middle sometimes identified as dedicated players who do spend a lot of time in game but are not part of the hardcore group. I count myself among them. I do raid but I take my time with it and there are weeks where I don't raid at all or very little. I need stuff to do and it doesn't have to be raids or ops as they are called here. So even though many casuals don't play a lot of hours there are those as well who do.

 

But bottom line is where is the money? Do casuals bring in more cash or do hardcore players? Hardcore players are more demanding and want much more for what they're paying. At least it seems that way to me. More casual players may not be averse to spending some extra rl cash because they have other priorities like how their character looks and short cuts because they have less time to play for example.

 

I think that if a company brought out a game that is geared towards endgame it will not have a big population and therefore the game will fail. Only pvp oriented games have a chance as there seems to be a lot of support for such games in the asian regions. A lot of pvp games do come from there as it is.

[Kalfear]

The raw number of players is one thing, but I'm sure Raiders and PVP'ers spend a lot more time playing the game than the average casual PVE'er. That's also probably why they have a greater presence in forums than their raw percentage of the player population would suggest.

 

 

According to two studies that I posted links to a while back, casual players are the largest group of players, depending on game type naturally, but the most transient players. Hardcore players are the minority, but the most loyal.

 

One of those studies defined hardcore players as "players that are driven by reward and recognition" (paraphrasing naturally), and I took that to mean that hardcores are driven by reward, casuals by content. Very general naturally, but a simple definition.

 

 

One thing I see being falsely assumed in this thread is that hardcore players are either Raiders or PVPers.

 

There is a TON of hardcore players (who play 40-50-60 hours a week) who never step foot in Ops or PVP after they tried them before.

 

I know this as Im one of them and Im far from alone in playing this way.

(note: If they put in real RVR style PVP that would become my most played choice but current war zone stuff has no draw or appeal)

 

Many people play SW:TOR for the Star Wars content and environment and just run dailies, do flash points, work on achievements, craft, and generally just socialize with others (housing will create a boom in this style of play).

 

So to assume hardcore players instantly fall into Ops/PVP is wrong imo.

 

And also not all casuals are transient players.

Some do their 10 hours a week or so and are happy for the break from reality.

 

Takes all types to make a successful MMORPG.

 

Personally I don't think Devs should pander to any players but should generalize the whole thing and then apply development priorities (as I listed before).

So ignore the casual, hardcore raider, hardcore pvper and instead just focus on content priorities that apply to pretty much any MMORPG

[Grayseven]

I have to agree. I normally play 3-4 hours a day before work (I work the 3-11pm shift) and whatever I can get away with on weekends (normally equal to my work week play time total, so 6-8 hours a day) if I am not working but I can play all of that time without raiding or PvP.

 

But I do raid and I do PvP. So some weeks I'm "hardcore" and other weeks I'm not. It probably averages out to "middle of the road".

 

I see a lot of guild mates doing the same thing. Weeklies, dailies, leveling characters...and one or two nights a week they raid or PvP.

 

So I'm going to assume that the "vast minority" consists of the hardcore...either PvPer's who do nothing else or progression raiders who live to put NiM content on farm. The rest of us constitute the majority.

[jorill]

I used to do saturday guild runs for coms. we had 7 regulars that were well geared and we would often pick up 1 or 2 pugs. A few times the guys would be newbies in leveling green and we would just tell them to follow along best they could and need on everything because we didnt need it. One of these guys was having a blast running ops for the first time so we ended running pretty much all day with him. invited him to the guild and he is a progression raider now. being nice and laid back paid off. we use mumble or vent but half of that is just talking back and forth.

 

thats a good point actually. Im guessing you were overgeared for those particular ops. I do find this a good way to get someone acclimated to ops who is new and its generally wont prevent it from being finished. Not being a jerk is always a big thing especially with new people even if they are screwing up

[LordArtemis]

One thing I see being falsely assumed in this thread is that hardcore players are either Raiders or PVPers.

 

Well, that is not how I defined Hardcore and Casual. Here is a more extended definition based on my experience and some reports I have seen.

 

Hardcore players are more concerned with reward, and have reward driven motivations. They like visual representations of their accomplishments, and endeavor to improve themselves as much as possible in almost every way in a game. Hardcore players try to make sure they can squeeze every point of potential about of their performance.

 

Casual players are more concerned with the gameplay experience, and focus on things like story, secondary content, appearance, housing, minigames. For a casual, the game is entertainment. Casuals tend to have lower concerns with respect to BIS efforts and reward driven content.

 

Please note how NEITHER definition is an insult to that type of player. Both types of players are vital to the health of a game IMO.

 

Ok, so note that it did not indicate casuals do NOT participate in end game or pvp, only that it is not their general focus. Instead they focus on more entertainment.

 

So, simpy put, Hardcores are driven by reward, Casuals by content as I noted earlier.

[CKNORTH]

Well, that is not how I defined Hardcore and Casual. Here is a more extended definition based on my experience and some reports I have seen.

 

Hardcore players are more concerned with reward, and have reward driven motivations. They like visual representations of their accomplishments, and endeavor to improve themselves as much as possible in almost every way in a game. Hardcore players try to make sure they can squeeze every point of potential about of their performance.

 

Casual players are more concerned with the gameplay experience, and focus on things like story, secondary content, appearance, housing, minigames. For a casual, the game is entertainment. Casuals tend to have lower concerns with respect to BIS efforts and reward driven content.

 

Please note how NEITHER definition is an insult to that type of player. Both types of players are vital to the health of a game IMO.

 

Ok, so note that it did not indicate casuals do NOT participate in end game or pvp, only that it is not their general focus. Instead they focus on more entertainment.

 

So, simpy put, Hardcores are driven by reward, Casuals by content as I noted earlier.

 

 

What would be cool is smaller group sizes and higher difficulty/reward for example, for casuals let the 8 man replace 16 man ops and for the hardcore change to 4 man NiM or extreme NIM, with the gear being extremely high level, there are two reasons I suggest this, queue times would be faster, and second hard cores would get a gratifying challenge for a four man NiM OPs or FP it would require a gear check in order to enter and dynamic design that it can't be soloed... For me IMO there is more gratification for an extremely hard challenge and with a gear check design it stops the need to know fights, reason is if the gear can only be attained from a subsequent lower form of the raid such as a hard mode, people entering the NiM are already experienced so to sum it up crafting 180 gear would be cap for the pre-hard mode that way people once reaching the gear for NiM would know what to do..... But this is all my own opinion on a design.

[Uruare]

I've been playing these crazy things since 1999 (The Realm). A couple of observations in keeping in line with the conversation:

 

1) When Everquest went to "Ever-raid" they lost a ton of subscribers. It didn't help that WoW was releasing around the same time, but the line in the sand had been drawn and the "frustrated casual" (like me) who did NOT belong to a raiding guild was going to be shut OUT of any sort of progression due to EQ raiding mechanics.

 

1a) Even at its height, EQ had 10x more PvE than PvP servers.

 

2) Wow made raiding a bit easier, but 40-man raids were a logistical nightmare. (Think herding cats).

 

3) Vis-a-vis SWTOR, gearing up is beyond easy. Planetary comms drop like beads at a Mardi Gras parade and even if you only PvP 5x a week at 55 you can get Relics that are well above average. Purple 53 earpieces and implants go for less than 20k on my server, blues are around 10k. Level 53 crafted (to include Hilt / Barrel) along with the aforementioned Augs / Enhance / Armorings make you very viable for SM ops.

 

3a) Having said that, there is an expectation that you show up "reasonably" geared. Greens are a definite no-no as are stats that don't match your class (Juggs wearing Willpower Earpieces). Guilds will carry you (maybe). GF will not unless it's six friends in 186's just looking to screw around or help gear a guildy and they need one more for the comms.

 

If you are a first-timer in a SM OP, it is expected that you do some research via You tube. It is also expected that you have voice comms : Ventrillo, Teamspeak, RaidCall, and Mumble. You don't have to have a mic - but you need to be able to hear.

 

Why?

 

Because as a first timer it will most likely be you that does something wrong that wipes the raid. Usually that is basic mechanics: Don't stand in stupid, DO stand in Sorc purple goodness, know your role, know your rotation, know how to interrupt, etc.

 

There are also social graces: don't need on stuff you can't use, don't need for a companion, listen, ask if you DON'T KNOW. Ask twice if you didn't quite understand.

 

The above are the BASICS.

 

You've identified the root of the problem, I think - those are indeed just the basics. The bare minimum of personal obligation, really, though even that fails to encapsulate the matter.

 

Raiding is just plain bad, in my opinion, because neither this nor any of these raid games have anything to do with raiding until 'endgame' wherein which everything you were doing and presumably enjoying to that point is tossed or the window, and now it's off to the treadmills.

 

To me, this whole 'mmo means you should group! ' slogan that the 10 watt bulbs of antibrilliance love slinging around is the direct equivalent of verbal ***** - mmo should make you want to group, not need to in order to function.

 

Mmo should make it easy for people to group up and do useful things together. Swtor here does a little better than some by making the quests themselves more choice driven and interactive on their surfaces, but beyond those surfaces, it's no more friendly to ease of grouping anywhere along the leveling path than wow is.

 

We can't reduce our effective level to party with lower level folks, we can't have missions shared with us if we've already completed them (which would be handy even at substantially rewards for the ability to interact with and see quest objects in the world, for but one example).

 

Incidentally, RIFT is a raid game that males or very easy to do those very things. I played for about a month, grouped with loads of people, was far more willing to help others with lower level stuff and segued right into dungeons, then raids.

 

Pugh in all the way, with people populating my friends list in droves because Trion made it convenient to play the normal game with people and actually have that be useful to all involved.

 

In swtor? I can stay out of your group so you'll get kill xp and just heal you with my merchant by way of being able to meaningfully do things with lower level chars. I can solo your low level fp's whole you sit there with your thumb up your behind if you like.

 

Raiding is bad on here. Nothing in the game prepares any of us for raiding, and the chief requirement, being lots of friends, they make a baldfaced cow of a needlessly unfacilitated matter out of.

 

Needing third party communication systems is just the tip of a very poopy iceberg, and it simplifies into a simple question.

 

Why does this game, like so many of its kind, have no clue how to make the core game on any way relate outside plot threads to the endgame?

 

You're in the last minute of your fps multiplayer game and suddenly, it becomes a platformer! In which you need 7 to 15 other people to choreograph with!

 

I remember first encountering raiding in wow, and I thought it was the stupidest and most random thing I'd ever seen.

 

I still think it's pretty stupid for how most of these games set the average player up to absolutely fail at their own endgame. You week be taught nothing useful through the storied leveling game. If you acquire any competencies vital to raiding along the way, it will not be because you needed them like that at any point along the way.

 

If raiding is swimming, they spend all your leveling process telling you neat stories about water. And then, at max, they wave at the ocean and abandon you to it, somehow failing to understand that they've taught you many things you'll have to unlearn, and nothing about swimming, before you'll have any business in that ocean.

 

And you're going to need third party software for it too. This need might not be literal, but have fun raiding without voice. See how far that gets you.

[CKNORTH]

You've identified the root of the problem, I think - those are indeed just the basics. The bare minimum of personal obligation, really, though even that fails to encapsulate the matter.

 

Raiding is just plain bad, in my opinion, because neither this nor any of these raid games have anything to do with raiding until 'endgame' wherein which everything you were doing and presumably enjoying to that point is tossed or the window, and now it's off to the treadmills.

 

To me, this whole 'mmo means you should group! ' slogan that the 10 watt bulbs of antibrilliance love slinging around is the direct equivalent of verbal ***** - mmo should make you want to group, not need to in order to function.

 

Mmo should make it easy for people to group up and do useful things together. Swtor here does a little better than some by making the quests themselves more choice driven and interactive on their surfaces, but beyond those surfaces, it's no more friendly to ease of grouping anywhere along the leveling path than wow is.

 

We can't reduce our effective level to party with lower level folks, we can't have missions shared with us if we've already completed them (which would be handy even at substantially rewards for the ability to interact with and see quest objects in the world, for but one example).

 

Incidentally, RIFT is a raid game that males or very easy to do those very things. I played for about a month, grouped with loads of people, was far more willing to help others with lower level stuff and segued right into dungeons, then raids.

 

Pugh in all the way, with people populating my friends list in droves because Trion made it convenient to play the normal game with people and actually have that be useful to all involved.

 

In swtor? I can stay out of your group so you'll get kill xp and just heal you with my merchant by way of being able to meaningfully do things with lower level chars. I can solo your low level fp's whole you sit there with your thumb up your behind if you like.

 

Raiding is bad on here. Nothing in the game prepares any of us for raiding, and the chief requirement, being lots of friends, they make a baldfaced cow of a needlessly unfacilitated matter out of.

 

Needing third party communication systems is just the tip of a very poopy iceberg, and it simplifies into a simple question.

 

Why does this game, like so many of its kind, have no clue how to make the core game on any way relate outside plot threads to the endgame?

 

You're in the last minute of your fps multiplayer game and suddenly, it becomes a platformer! In which you need 7 to 15 other people to choreograph with!

 

I remember first encountering raiding in wow, and I thought it was the stupidest and most random thing I'd ever seen.

 

I still think it's pretty stupid for how most of these games set the average player up to absolutely fail at their own endgame. You week be taught nothing useful through the storied leveling game. If you acquire any competencies vital to raiding along the way, it will not be because you needed them like that at any point along the way.

 

If raiding is swimming, they spend all your leveling process telling you neat stories about water. And then, at max, they wave at the ocean and abandon you to it, somehow failing to understand that they've taught you many things you'll have to unlearn, and nothing about swimming, before you'll have any business in that ocean.

 

And you're going to need third party software for it too. This need might not be literal, but have fun raiding without voice. See how far that gets you.

 

 

I agree with most of this however in your last statement, "try raiding without voice" well you obviously never played EQ back in the day where raids consisted of max 72 people without any third party or voice chat and typing Chanel's that every part of the raids needed to Read and "type" now imagine being in a mandatory raiding guild that raided 5 days a week for minimum eight+ hours.... It can be done, was it fun? hell yeah! Here is the problem, people are in fact accustomed to having things that require minimum effort. I often think that people don't want to type because there fingers are broken, point is if you knew how past games functioned you would realize all these added features like voice group finder etc are In fact a "convenience" because people are well I hate to segregate but there freaking lazy.... I apologize if this in fact offends anyone but really.... On a side note the guild I was in for three years+ in EQ was considered, "Casual" raiding, hardcore guilds would of blown your minds.....

 

Edit: if people want to make this a grouping MMO here's what they need to do, get rid of the companions, don't allow voice chat or any third party garbage, and also do away with the group finder plus put all the FP/OPs/WZ on the proper planets that people have to Travel too, then you might get close to a real MMO...

Edited July 6, 2014 by CKNORTH

[Kalfear]

I agree with most of this however in your last statement, "try raiding without voice" well you obviously never played EQ back in the day where raids consisted of max 72 people without any third party or voice chat and typing Chanel's that every part of the raids needed to Read and "type" now imagine being in a mandatory raiding guild that raided 5 days a week for minimum eight+ hours.... It can be done, was it fun? hell yeah! Here is the problem, people are in fact accustomed to having things that require minimum effort. I often think that people don't want to type because there fingers are broken, point is if you knew how past games functioned you would realize all these added features like voice group finder etc are In fact a "convenience" because people are well I hate to segregate but there freaking lazy.... I apologize if this in fact offends anyone but really.... On a side note the guild I was in for three years+ in EQ was considered, "Casual" raiding, hardcore guilds would of blown your minds.....

 

Edit: if people want to make this a grouping MMO here's what they need to do, get rid of the companions, don't allow voice chat or any third party garbage, and also do away with the group finder plus put all the FP/OPs/WZ on the proper planets that people have to Travel too, then you might get close to a real MMO...

 

Very well said!

 

Very well said

 

I actually think gamers have gotten very lazy and voice chat (which I also use now as kinda had no choice but to conform) has ruined many aspects of MMORPGs

 

Prior to voice chat the RP in games was often amazing to behold.

In the First MMORPG ever Neverwinter Nights on AOL, they had Role Playing guilds of Drow and Dwarves complete with people learning the languages and typing them. You never see that level of immersion anymore unless the game offers different languages (but its not the same)

Typing as well offers up much more definition.

IE: *Bows slightly while maintaining a sly grin*

That is so much more descriptive then just hitting a bow emote

 

For Raiding that lack of voice really forced players to become skilled and knowledgeable and it wasn't enough to just know your mechanics (like so many today do). Back then you had to understand the whole Raid and understand how to adapt. Today being forced to adapt pretty much means the raid wipes every time.

 

And for PVP, the changes in skill and ability levels of pvpers back in day to the dumbed down version of today is absolutely staggering.

 

Voice chat is convenient and allows for instant communication at a push of a button but its not all good. The lowering of the skill and ability bar of players now a days is massive in scope and to design for them in mind, MMORPGs in general have devolved into much easier, less demanding games themselves.

 

LOTS of things in modern gaming to like, but the dumbing down of the genre in genre can specifically be tied to 2 things. Single player mentalities and voice chat usability.

 

Sometimes the best looking ideas really do end up hurting the product over all.

 

Im sure the newer (WOW and after) players will not agree with what I just said but truth is they have no clue of how massively different things were back in day challenge wise and player immersion wise.

[Kalfear]

Well, that is not how I defined Hardcore and Casual. Here is a more extended definition based on my experience and some reports I have seen.

 

Hardcore players are more concerned with reward, and have reward driven motivations. They like visual representations of their accomplishments, and endeavor to improve themselves as much as possible in almost every way in a game. Hardcore players try to make sure they can squeeze every point of potential about of their performance.

 

Casual players are more concerned with the gameplay experience, and focus on things like story, secondary content, appearance, housing, minigames. For a casual, the game is entertainment. Casuals tend to have lower concerns with respect to BIS efforts and reward driven content.

 

Please note how NEITHER definition is an insult to that type of player. Both types of players are vital to the health of a game IMO.

 

Ok, so note that it did not indicate casuals do NOT participate in end game or pvp, only that it is not their general focus. Instead they focus on more entertainment.

 

So, simpy put, Hardcores are driven by reward, Casuals by content as I noted earlier.

 

Well LA, not sure when you started MMORPGs but Hardcore been around since day one of genre and dont fit your definition at all.

 

Hell I dont fit your definition as I fully admit Im a hardcore player (that Im often accused of being)

yet by your definition im as casual as they come

 

Hardcore and casual has always been about the time you willing to put into the title/genre.

 

Always will be honestly

 

Hardcore PVP is someone that puts in the time but focuses on PVP only

Hardcore raider is someone that puts in the time but focuses only on Raiding

Hardcore crafter is .....

 

A casual is someone who simply doesnt put in the time and plays at a casual pace (meaning couple hours here or there).

 

A hardcore player will hit max level well before a casual player because they play more

Which is one of the reasons games got dumbed down so badly

So casuals could hit max level fast as well, despite playing few hours here and there

Edited July 6, 2014 by Kalfear

[CKNORTH]

Very well said!

 

Very well said

 

I actually think gamers have gotten very lazy and voice chat (which I also use now as kinda had no choice but to conform) has ruined many aspects of MMORPGs

 

Prior to voice chat the RP in games was often amazing to behold.

In the First MMORPG ever Neverwinter Nights on AOL, they had Role Playing guilds of Drow and Dwarves complete with people learning the languages and typing them. You never see that level of immersion anymore unless the game offers different languages (but its not the same)

Typing as well offers up much more definition.

IE: *Bows slightly while maintaining a sly grin*

That is so much more descriptive then just hitting a bow emote

 

For Raiding that lack of voice really forced players to become skilled and knowledgeable and it wasn't enough to just know your mechanics (like so many today do). Back then you had to understand the whole Raid and understand how to adapt. Today being forced to adapt pretty much means the raid wipes every time.

 

And for PVP, the changes in skill and ability levels of pvpers back in day to the dumbed down version of today is absolutely staggering.

 

Voice chat is convenient and allows for instant communication at a push of a button but its not all good. The lowering of the skill and ability bar of players now a days is massive in scope and to design for them in mind, MMORPGs in general have devolved into much easier, less demanding games themselves.

 

LOTS of things in modern gaming to like, but the dumbing down of the genre in genre can specifically be tied to 2 things. Single player mentalities and voice chat usability.

 

Sometimes the best looking ideas really do end up hurting the product over all.

 

Im sure the newer (WOW and after) players will not agree with what I just said but truth is they have no clue of how massively different things were back in day challenge wise and player immersion wise.

 

Thanks! :-) it's funny how bling has replaced quality gaming in truth in EQ mounts were considered a very valuable tool, that was needed by casters to regen mana faster, now they are no more then a fashion and leet cash statement! It saddens me that the term "Hardcore" and "casual" have been so blurred that today we might was just eat fast food our entire life and die by the age of 35... I mean once you have everything from the instant sensation of gratification what's left? Really voice chat, companions, group finder, IMO if they were all gone wouldn't phase me one bit, but the other 99% of the community wouldn't know how to cope with a change like that... People say we don't want our games to be a "job" I say *** do what you have to do to get somewhere in a game and Stop being spoon fed! Lol! Anyhow I could go on but not many people anymore understand the basic concept of earning something from a long time investment, rather then an instant money investment...

Edited July 6, 2014 by CKNORTH

[Damask_Rose]

I started playing MMOs with Asheron's Call and not EQ, so I just want to point out that being able to solo in MMOs has been around for as long as commercial MMOs have been. Asheron's Call was almost entirely solo level grind. Reaching level cap was a HUGE accomplishment and there was no "end-game". No one questioned that it was an MMO.

 

I think some of you guys tend to conflate the MMO you started with, with ALL MMOs and have a narrow definition of what an MMO is because of that.. So from my perspective, this focus on grouping and end-game is the newfangled ruination of MMOs

[Lotharofxev]

Hardcore and casual has always been about the time you willing to put into the title/genre.

 

Always will be honestly

 

Your opinion - nothing more.

 

Anyone who wants research on this subject needs to read Nick Yee's work. (http://www.nickyee.com/). He's been doing it since EQ and he's got years of data. Forget all forum opinions - read his work. Very, very interesting, albeit it can be a bit dry.

[Lotharofxev]

Forgot to mention, Meridian 59 has been credited as being the first MMORPG, whereas NWN was the first ORPG to display graphics (specifically 3-D if you believe Wikipedia). Then there's the whole DIKUMUD v Everquest controversy.

[LordArtemis]

Your opinion - nothing more.

 

Anyone who wants research on this subject needs to read Nick Yee's work. (http://www.nickyee.com/). He's been doing it since EQ and he's got years of data. Forget all forum opinions - read his work. Very, very interesting, albeit it can be a bit dry.

 

We have some Parc statements from MMORPG studies up on our wall in the office.

[JediMasterSLC]

Maybe a minority quantitatively, but not qualitatively

[Lotharofxev]

http://www.nickyee.com/index-daedalus.html

[LordArtemis]

Maybe a minority quantitatively, but not qualitatively

 

Hehe. I would definitely say that hardcore players certainly are pros at gameplay, and can provide devs with valuable information.

[Kalfear]

Thanks! :-) it's funny how bling has replaced quality gaming in truth in EQ mounts were considered a very valuable tool, that was needed by casters to regen mana faster, now they are no more then a fashion and leet cash statement! It saddens me that the term "Hardcore" and "casual" have been so blurred that today we might was just eat fast food our entire life and die by the age of 35... I mean once you have everything from the instant sensation of gratification what's left? Really voice chat, companions, group finder, IMO if they were all gone wouldn't phase me one bit, but the other 99% of the community wouldn't know how to cope with a change like that... People say we don't want our games to be a "job" I say *** do what you have to do to get somewhere in a game and Stop being spoon fed! Lol! Anyhow I could go on but not many people anymore understand the basic concept of earning something from a long time investment, rather then an instant money investment...

 

Heh, I remember when SWG got its speeders working

The planets suddenly felt so much smaller in size and that WOW effect was robbed from game

 

Original design for SWG has players placing shuttle pads inside player built towns/cities and the concept was a player would shuttle to which ever player city and then travel out from there. Making the placements of different cities strategically important.

 

But once Speeders went into game, everyone stopped using shuttles on planets because you could ride your speeder from one end to other in 10-15 minutes (rather then waiting upwards of 15 minutes for shuttles). Completely removed a big aspect of SWG design.

 

I often wonder how much more epic SWG would have felt if Speeders were never added

 

It definitely would have pushed players to not build remote houses way out in lala land because of danger reaching house on foot

 

I often think many people dont seriously think and rationalize what they are demanding.

 

People demand flying mounts for SW:TOR but they never stop to think for a second that this game was never designed for flying mounts and to put those in would instantly eliminate a ton of content you cant just blindly drive through.

 

Someone in this thread was saying hardcore players have something to add to development but having been playing these games since day 1 of genre, I can say very truthfully that being hardcore doesnt mean you will suggest whats best for game. In fact many hardcore players make suggestions that only help them. DAoC RVR balance was basically obliterated because Mythic listed to the wrong group of hardcore RVRers who didn't give a bleep about things like balance and fairness. They wanted god powers and that's what they suggested over and over and over till Mythic gave it a try and basically broke their own RVR content.

 

Personally I think developers should be looking for feed back from experienced players with long term knowledge but also players who can look outside their own preferences and desires and look at the whole game and how everything fits.

 

People today don't do that it seems.

As you said, they want instant gratification

I really wonder why some players even bother playing MMORPGs at all cause they want everything just handed to them with no effort what so ever.

 

But I guess that complaint can be applied to much more then just MMORPGs now a days.

[TravelersWay]

Truth is LA, hardcore PVPers (and I was once a hard core PVPer back in day) and hard core Raiders have always been the very vocal minority in MMORPGs.

 

(I say hard core because most players do abit of everything so they dont fall into the all ops (or all pvp) or bust mentality you see from the ops/pvpers claiming to be the largest play style base)

 

Their loud vocal presence has always caused the impression of them being much larger then they really are.

 

Don't even need actual sources (though the numbers are always out there if folks wanna really search it out) honestly, just have to look at the games themselves priorities.

 

UO released all PVP. UO took an insane loss of subscribers when EQ opened. UO almost instantly mirrored their lands and created non pvp landmass. PVP land mass basically emptied out to nothing over night. Not hard to figure out that the majority of people playing UO were not interested in PVP.

 

EQ releases with no pvp beyond self flaging (which almost no one did)

Eventually they give in to the endless spam of demands for pvp servers so they make 2.

Endless numbers of pve servers and 2 pvp server that for period while I was there (until DAoC released) were under populated.

 

DAoC, a game whose major draw was RVR released with 0 pvp servers.

Eventually they made 3,

1 closed down and merged less then 2 months later from no population.

with in 9 more months the 2 PVP servers merged into 1

By time SWG released there was talk of deleting the 1 pvp from lack of population

 

This same routine regarding pvp plays out in every moderately to massively successful MMORPG made.

 

And lets not forget the great successes of Shadowbane and other all PVP MMORPGs.

Havent heard of Shadowbane?

Dont worry, most didn't because it closed down fairly quickly realizing 100% pvp doesn't fly in MMORPGs for the mass majority of players.

 

As for Raids/Ops. Its good content but its even smaller pond of players (as you pointed out yourself).

 

These are nitch play styles on the level of Crafting, Role Playing, even mini games.

They all have their place in MMORPGs but they are NOT the most important aspect as you so often read on forums (from the same people re posting over and over and over)

 

PVE (leveling, questing, dailies, dungeons/flashpoints, exploration) has always been the major draw to MMORPGs and probably always will be.

 

Developers that fail to understand that truth usually end up paying a heavy price for it in the end.

 

Very well said.

 

It is interesting though to consider that many MMO players prefer to plqy it as a solo game.

 

I wonder if an item was available through group content (1 hour for a 5% chance) or solo content (50 hours for a 100% chance) which path the majority of players would take?

Ahh, quite the interesting observation, like Kalfear's statement at the end of his post about PvE.

 

Now why would that be?

 

Just take a look at the history of the MMO genre and the reasons why it really came about. It's birth originated from the CRPG and LAN Parties. Of which, those origins are the D&D sessions in Mom's basement that we all (generally speaking) fondly remember.

 

Personally speaking, I only began getting into the MMO genre because I was looking for a great RPG game that recaptured what I loved about the classic CRPGs of old. I have since enjoyed the social aspects of MMOs to some extent over the last 10 years or so, but if I had my choice of SP or MMO for each MMO I am playing now, I most certainly would go for the SP version - and that's partly because of having more control over how and when I could play said game, rather than having that power in the hands of the devs and pubs.

 

For the most part, the CRPG gave us a way to be the lone hero in games, even those that allowed us to adventure with a party of characters. We the player, alone, was the hero of the game. Not many people may realize this, but the original Wizardry games (which birthed the CRPG industry) could have been, and were meant to be, played as multi-player games - just like the D&D sessions of old. Naturally of course, since a single player could create and control the entire party of characters, they became single-player games by nature. MMOs for the most part have stuck to that general style of design, up to and including ESO. Through years of playing this way by nature, it most certainly has ingrained us to continue playing that way in MMOs. After all, the genre really didn't take off until a lot of the content in MMOs became solo friendly content.

Edited July 7, 2014 by TravelersWay

[TravelersWay]

I can't say I'm surprised.

 

Of course, what constitutes a raider or PvPer? If someone raids occasionally, are they a raider? If someone PvP's only when asked by his guildies, are they PvPer's?

 

I think it is pretty important to clarify what constitutes the title of raider or PvPer. I would say that people whose sole gaming purpose involves one of those aspects are indeed a minority, but I'd suspect that the majority of people playing MMO's do one or both at some time.

Well, that is not how I defined Hardcore and Casual. Here is a more extended definition based on my experience and some reports I have seen.

 

Hardcore players are more concerned with reward, and have reward driven motivations. They like visual representations of their accomplishments, and endeavor to improve themselves as much as possible in almost every way in a game. Hardcore players try to make sure they can squeeze every point of potential about of their performance.

 

Casual players are more concerned with the gameplay experience, and focus on things like story, secondary content, appearance, housing, minigames. For a casual, the game is entertainment. Casuals tend to have lower concerns with respect to BIS efforts and reward driven content.

 

Please note how NEITHER definition is an insult to that type of player. Both types of players are vital to the health of a game IMO.

 

Ok, so note that it did not indicate casuals do NOT participate in end game or pvp, only that it is not their general focus. Instead they focus on more entertainment.

 

So, simpy put, Hardcores are driven by reward, Casuals by content as I noted earlier.

Well LA, not sure when you started MMORPGs but Hardcore been around since day one of genre and dont fit your definition at all.

 

Hell I dont fit your definition as I fully admit Im a hardcore player (that Im often accused of being)

yet by your definition im as casual as they come

 

Hardcore and casual has always been about the time you willing to put into the title/genre.

 

Always will be honestly

 

Hardcore PVP is someone that puts in the time but focuses on PVP only

Hardcore raider is someone that puts in the time but focuses only on Raiding

Hardcore crafter is .....

 

A casual is someone who simply doesnt put in the time and plays at a casual pace (meaning couple hours here or there).

 

A hardcore player will hit max level well before a casual player because they play more

Which is one of the reasons games got dumbed down so badly

So casuals could hit max level fast as well, despite playing few hours here and there

Well, part of the problem comes from the fact that most definitions up this this point are generalizations, and the actual breakdown of what makes "hardcore" and "casual" don't fit very neatly into one set of ideals.

 

Hardcore/Casual is more than just time spent playing a game, or even one aspect of a game.

Hardcore/Casual is more than just how much dedication one gives to outside things related to the game (like forums).

Hardcore/Casual is more than just the time spent delving into the mechanics of the game to "learn" to improve one's skill.

 

A true definition has to take all aspects into account to determine if a player could be considered Hardcore or casual. And that's where many debates and studies fail - the issue of hardcore and casual is a lot more complex to try to fit into one nice and tidy overarching generalization. I think the terms "dedicated" and "recreational" might be even more appropriate to add.

 

In all honesty a more accurate picture of the gaming community would be this:

 

recreational casual - the transient player

dedicated casual

recreational hardcore

dedicated hardcore - the transient player (for reasons different than the RC)

 

The middle two of course are more closer in relation and less transient than the two outside extremes. But even with this model, taking one typical gamer into consideration, we would need further classification depending on the type of gameplay within the game itself. You can have a dedicated hardcore player of a game that never sets foot into PvP. Therefore we would need to use this classification as an overall means for a game in a general sense, and then use it again to classify players based on each element of gameplay within the game as example:

 

recreational casual PvPer/Raider/Crafter/etc.

dedicated casual PvPer/Raider/Crafter/etc.

and so on.

Edited July 7, 2014 by TravelersWay

[TravelersWay]

Very well said!

 

Very well said

 

I actually think gamers have gotten very lazy and voice chat (which I also use now as kinda had no choice but to conform) has ruined many aspects of MMORPGs

 

Prior to voice chat the RP in games was often amazing to behold.

In the First MMORPG ever Neverwinter Nights on AOL, they had Role Playing guilds of Drow and Dwarves complete with people learning the languages and typing them. You never see that level of immersion anymore unless the game offers different languages (but its not the same)

Typing as well offers up much more definition.

IE: *Bows slightly while maintaining a sly grin*

That is so much more descriptive then just hitting a bow emote

 

For Raiding that lack of voice really forced players to become skilled and knowledgeable and it wasn't enough to just know your mechanics (like so many today do). Back then you had to understand the whole Raid and understand how to adapt. Today being forced to adapt pretty much means the raid wipes every time.

 

And for PVP, the changes in skill and ability levels of pvpers back in day to the dumbed down version of today is absolutely staggering.

 

Voice chat is convenient and allows for instant communication at a push of a button but its not all good. The lowering of the skill and ability bar of players now a days is massive in scope and to design for them in mind, MMORPGs in general have devolved into much easier, less demanding games themselves.

 

LOTS of things in modern gaming to like, but the dumbing down of the genre in genre can specifically be tied to 2 things. Single player mentalities and voice chat usability.

 

Sometimes the best looking ideas really do end up hurting the product over all.

 

Im sure the newer (WOW and after) players will not agree with what I just said but truth is they have no clue of how massively different things were back in day challenge wise and player immersion wise.

 

Here also is a very interesting argument. Certainly MMOs "existed" prior to the WoW-ification of the genre. But the overriding point that the gaming community tends to forget here is that the Gaming Industry is a business first and foremost. Even all those indie devs we love to talk about with such affection (like professional athletes who still play in the "minor" leagues - those playing for the "love of the game.") are in truth looking to make money (i.e. a living) in the business. What many old-timers consider the dumbing down of the MMO genre, is in fact the saving grace of the genre. If it were not for the "blockbuster" titles that have released, those appealing to the masses and those putting accessibility above all else, there would be no MMO genre to speak of today.

 

The Gaming Industry as a whole has shifted its product to meet the needs of the changing attitudes and needs of society as a whole. Necessary, of course, for survival. In all honesty, do we really want the next generation to slog 5 miles through snow and rain to get to school simply because that is what we had to do? Certainly the conveniences we have invented out of necessity (or desire) can be considered to have some societal detriments, but in the end, I would have to say that we as a society are much better off for them. It's the complacency of society that we need to change and berate - not the conveniences that allow more people to do more things more easily.

Edited July 7, 2014 by TravelersWay