Class Representatives Update!

[ArchangelLBC]

I wanted to cover some of the questions I have been seeing in the thread.

 

Are you just trying to kill the class rep system?

This is absolutely not my intent! I implore you, hold me to it. We will bring the Class Reps back after 2.5. If 2.5 comes out and you don't see me post something about it, PM me or make a thread. It may not come back the second 2.5 hits but shortly thereafter, so I will make sure to status update ASAP after the update.

 

We actually had 6 questions planned, now we don't get to ask the other 3. What about that?

This was one of my biggest concerns with putting the Class Rep system on hiatus as well. I think we can both agree the biggest point of concern here is that we want to make sure the Combat Team has knowledge of what each class feels their biggest issues are. This way, when changes are being made, they have a strong understanding of what the players are thinking.

 

Although I have been doing this all along during the top 3s, this is my plan to make sure this is not a problem. After the Merc/Sin top 3 come back, I am going to completely revisit everything for every class. Their original post gathering feedback for the top 3. Their final top 3 post. Our top 3 answers and the responses. I am going to take all of that information and compile it into a very large feedback report for each class and then pass that on to the Combat Team.

 

Now just to alleviate any confusion. This is something I often do as Community Manager, so this situation is not unique. What is unique is that the Combat Team very specifically is looking for this feedback, especially coming off the backs of the Class Rep system.

 

When is 2.5 coming out?

I don't have that information available yet but once I do, you will have it!

 

I know not everyone is happy with my decision to put the Class Rep system on hiatus, and I understand why. I promise that the intent was not to kill the discussion, that is the last thing I want. I will even try to pass back any relevant feedback I get from the Combat Team in our discussions. Also, as I stated before, look forward to blogs as we get closer to 2.5 explaining some of the changes that are coming.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

Here's my concern Eric. One of the longstanding, and most maddening, frustrations for many of us has been the utter and continued silence from the devs. Some of us have spent months and months discussing particular issues in class subforums, and very rarely has there ever been an indication that the devs were even aware of those issues.

 

In the one case where we know an acknowledgement of an issue was given, shadow tank spikiness concerns, you said you were bringing that issue directly to the attention of the combat team back in early July. We never ever heard back from you, and shadows were forced to spend one of their three questions asking about it again, because it was the only way to guarantee some sort of answer.

 

I bring this up because here was an example that's 3 months old where you said you were going to take an issue to the devs, where you were asked about that issue, both through the forums and in PM, and you never so much as replied. Throughout all this two major patches have come (2.3, and soon 2.4) with zero Shadow changes. Why should we believe you're actually taking issues to the devs when you say you are? Assuming we believe that, why should we believe the combat team is listening to you?

 

The only way to know we're being heard is for the kind of two way communication which was supposed to be fostered by the class rep system. And not just "oh hey I'm taking this issue to the devs" we need to know what the devs are saying. Otherwise all the class feedback on the subforums is just so much sound and fury signifying nothing. 2 more months of hearing nothing back from the devs and it will just trickle out and die altogether as more and more posters get tired of discussing the same issues with nothing but silence coming back.

 

All this to say, we need to be hearing back from you. Without it, all your assurances that you'll be compiling feedback from the class forums and bringing issues to the combat team's attention is just empty promises.

 

Words are wind.

[eartharioch]

Interesting analogy, but you oversimplified it a bit.

 

If little Timmy hands his Christmas list to one parent (Eric Musco), who says that a pony would be a great thing for Santa to bring, people shouldn't blame Timmy for getting mad when he wakes up to find that not only did Santa not bring him a pony, but he took a bite out of every cookie and then pissed in the milk before he left.

 

And when Timmy's neighbor complains about not getting *his* pony, Santa says, "sorry", and gives him a Radio Flyer wagon. And when Timmy says, "What about me?", Santa says "Wait until your brother's birthday and we'll get you each one."

 

And now Santa just killed Timmy's brother, so still no pony for Timmy. Maybe he should just wait until next Christmas?[/Quote]

 

No I think my analogy was better. Yours didn't make any sense and mine is more in line with what actually happened.

 

Blink.

Huh?

That's *exactly* what happened.

 

1) Sorcs turned in questions. [Timmy asked for a pony.]

 

2) Eric Musco said, "Really great top 3. I will pass these on to the devs and get the process rolling on receiving their feedback." Eric said that was a good thing for which to ask.

 

3) Bioware then gave rude answers and left for the weekend. [[bioware] did not bring [Timmy] a pony, but instead took a bite out of every cookie and then pissed in the milk before leaving.]

 

4) Vanguards got the same treatment, but when they complained, immediately got buffs announced. Timmy's neighbor complained and got a Radio Flyer wagon

 

5) Eric started his apology off by saying, "we are going to work with the combat to see if we can get some responses today to some of the issues raised in the thread.", but that didn't happen, so we were left waiting for the Sage questions. And when Timmy says, "What about me?", Santa says "Wait until your brother's birthday and we'll get you each one."

 

6) Now, Eric has put the Sage answers on indefinite hold. And now Santa just killed Timmy's brother, so still no pony for Timmy. Maybe he should just wait until next Christmas?

 

So, as far as I can tell, Icebergy, my analogy is 100% dead center on target.

Thirty-love and back to you

Edited September 19, 2013 by eartharioch

[eartharioch]

Get the low hanging fruit and claim some victories ASAP! Your Combat team is contributing to the tanking of this game by not in some fashion (Even MINOR) addressing the overwhelming feedback on many things.

 

Do you mean "low hanging fruit" like the HK bug they just cranked out a few days ago?

Edited September 19, 2013 by eartharioch

[dscount]

Do you mean "low hanging fruit" like the HK bug they just cranked out a few days ago?

 

No.. Simple Minor changes. They know they have certain issues and have confirmed them to be issues, but are taking NO ACTION now when they could be "Hero's" of the sort for at least doing SOMETHING!

 

Example: BW Stated "Yes we are not happy with CRIT (Sage/Sorc) answer and plan to address many classes".

 

Quick Win: OMG just increase the CRIT BONUS in the SKILL TREE for those classes. DONE! Take Credit, Take a bow, and you have many people a tad more happy for a simple change that would eventually happen anyways. Tweak it later, but for GOD SAKE do something besides "Wait, watch metrics that have not changed for months on end" and then wait some more.

 

Reality: DO NOTHING for 3 more months, piss off and lose more customer over the lack of doing nothing (Now that Sage/Sorc lost Timmy's brother too) and get crapped on by the community.

 

I'm sorry.. in the business world.. you don't keep customers this way. In the MMO world you lose folks to the next shiny game that comes along as they are no longer having fun and lack of a balanced game environment doesn't help that.

 

Just seems like the "Metrics MATH WIZ" in the back room has photos of someone with a GOAT or something, because they seem to hold the keys to the kingdom of reality. Bad enough we get crap MOD/ENH on gear (On purpose I'm sure), but come on fix things you know are broken. TODAY, not tomorrow, not next patch, not the patch after that, but TODAY. Emergency Patches to fix things happen all the time in the real world and in BW as well (Tonight's for example)

Edited September 19, 2013 by dscount

[TUXs]

No.. Simple Minor changes. They know they have certain issues and have confirmed them to be issues, but are taking NO ACTION now when they could be "Hero's" of the sort for at least doing SOMETHING!

 

Example: BW Stated "Yes we are not happy with CRIT (Sage/Sorc) answer and plan to address many classes".

 

Quick Win: OMG just increase the CRIT BONUS in the SKILL TREE for those classes. DONE! Take Credit, Take a bow, and you have many people a tad more happy for a simple change that would eventually happen anyways. Tweak it later, but for GOD SAKE do something besides "Wait, watch metrics that have not changed for months on end" and then wait some more.

 

Reality: DO NOTHING for 3 more months, piss off and lose more customer over the lack of doing nothing (Now that Sage/Sorc lost Timmy's brother too) and get crapped on by the community.

 

I'm sorry.. in the business world.. you don't keep customers this way. In the MMO world you lose folks to the next shiny game that comes along as they are no longer having fun and lack of a balanced game environment doesn't help that.

 

Absolutely correct!!! A few tweaks every week and players would be THRILLED! Keep making tweaks until they achieve "balance". It's really not that hard.

[MillionsKNives]

Absolutely correct!!! A few tweaks every week and players would be THRILLED! Keep making tweaks until they achieve "balance". It's really not that hard.

 

Agreed. Even if they're concerned about making so many changes to classes then they can use the PTS. I mean, that's what it's there for right? It's only been up with 2.4 for how many weeks now? In all that time all they've done is make a couple adjustments to PTs.

[mmjarec]

Im glad they did the most senseless thing and put the worst class all thexway back to novemver instead of first where t belongs

 

In emegency room they treat the pll with the worst problem first why csnt you do that since it actually makesesxsense? Did sorcs get to go first cause they won a coin flip.

 

And why have such a cumbersome class rep systrm can you not read the forums and figure out the problems on your own i never voted for my class rep and am pretty sure i will disagree with the questions but it would make more sense to base your changes off forums complaints indstead of some annointed one.

[eartharioch]

I think you guys missed not just the point, but the entire thrust, of my comment.

 

BW just tried to "knock out" a fix to a problem so small most people didn't know it existed and failed miserably, so why are you inviting them to take random stabs at class balancing?

[Pilgrim_Grey]

I think you guys missed not just the point, but the entire thrust, of my comment.

 

BW just tried to "knock out" a fix to a problem so small most people didn't know it existed and failed miserably, so why are you inviting them to take random stabs at class balancing?

 

While they don't always fix a small issue the first time around or have to work on something more, that doesn't mean they're incapable of making adjustments. If I were going to go with your point, we wouldn't have a game that was playable at all...

 

I'm frustrated with the closing of class reps before the first round of questions was over and think they could be quicker and more decisive with balance issues in game, but I'm not going to say they're so incompetent they can't even make a small change to the game.

[mmjarec]

While they don't always fix a small issue the first time around or have to work on something more, that doesn't mean they're incapable of making adjustments. If I were going to go with your point, we wouldn't have a game that was playable at all...

 

I'm frustrated with the closing of class reps before the first round of questions was over and think they could be quicker and more decisive with balance issues in game, but I'm not going to say they're so incompetent they can't even make a small change to the game.

Anytime they funnel their issues coming from one person its always worse than getting everyones input and hus a larger base in which to draw conclusions or perhaps they couldxplay their own game. Either way to heabily rely on one person with zero wualifications theres no keeping said reps from helping out their pool of friends instead of the whole community

Sure hes supposed to get a consensus from everyone but thats impossible as all he will hear is what concerns the biggest loudmouths and will nit represent the community as a whole. Why not just hire a bum off the street

Booware just seems to be a pool of where bad ideas are born

[Nebdar]

So when the Class Representatives questions are over for now maybe it is time for General Questions about the game Life Quality Improvement should start....

Like...

1. Are planning to improve or change the speed of taxis or add second option fly 3x times faster for 3 times greater fee . Those on Alderan are pretty slow you can go do something else while you waste 3-5 min just fly from one point to another(i am talking about Imperial ones)

2.Social Items Vendor on Fleet with just two items? Shouldn't it have at least the Party Instigator and Party Bomb not to mention all that armor scattered on all planets

and there are many others small/general/concept issues that could improve our gaming experience....

Just like you did with Fleet instant Transport and quick travel changes... and by the way BIG THANK YOU FOR THAT:D

Edited September 20, 2013 by Nebdar

[eartharioch]

While they don't always fix a small issue the first time around or have to work on something more, that doesn't mean they're incapable of making adjustments. If I were going to go with your point, we wouldn't have a game that was playable at all...

 

I'm frustrated with the closing of class reps before the first round of questions was over and think they could be quicker and more decisive with balance issues in game, but I'm not going to say they're so incompetent they can't even make a small change to the game.

 

I didn't say they were incompetent, I'm saying that we've just seen how a supposedly small change to an isolated quest line can cause problems. I'm not saying I don't want them balancing the classes, I'm saying I don't want to see them just tossing out "minor" adjustments to us (the audience) just to see what flies. I'd like them to take a proper amount of time to design, code, and test things.

 

And, tbh, I'd prefer that they address existing class bugs (and Crit) *before* making changes at the design level.

[mmjarec]

I didn't say they were incompetent, I'm saying that we've just seen how a supposedly small change to an isolated quest line can cause problems. I'm not saying I don't want them balancing the classes, I'm saying I don't want to see them just tossing out "minor" adjustments to us (the audience) just to see what flies. I'd like them to take a proper amount of time to design, code, and test things.

 

And, tbh, I'd prefer that they address existing class bugs (and Crit) *before* making changes at the design level.

 

Ill say it for you. They are incompetent. Doesnt taking the right amount of time to code design and test things make you a comptent dev? Then release bug ridden patches that create more imbalance and bugs that make it unplayable and cutting corners would make one incompetent

[Nemmar]

Thank you Eric. This kind of transparancy is what Bioware needs to do more of.

[ErosGyne]

Looks like the players(some of then) know more about the classes that the combat team, and the Class Representatives were a good way to join these two forces, the theory(combat team, we all think that they dont play the game, its all about metrics) and experience(those who realy pass many hours playing and know how the classe works live).

the metrics may says "all is fine" but live things are worlds apart.

 

NiM ops groups(not all) are taking classes and specs, not players,if they want a "easy mode" of doing NiM, just take the FOTM tank, healer and dps, the rest of the classes and especially spec(some times a class have 1 good spec and the other 2 realy bad) are left out and makes players leave the game

If having a choice, noone will take a shadow tank, a commando healer or a no burst dps class

just and example, my guild have 3 ops groups in NiM(2 groups have the 2 full ops on farm, the last group half way) content and none have this classes

[NoFishing]

So when the Class Representatives questions are over for now maybe it is time for General Questions about the game Life Quality Improvement should start....

Like...

1. Are planning to improve or change the speed of taxis or add second option fly 3x times faster for 3 times greater fee . Those on Alderan are pretty slow you can go do something else while you waste 3-5 min just fly from one point to another(i am talking about Imperial ones)

2.Social Items Vendor on Fleet with just two items? Shouldn't it have at least the Party Instigator and Party Bomb not to mention all that armor scattered on all planets

and there are many others small/general/concept issues that could improve our gaming experience....

Just like you did with Fleet instant Transport and quick travel changes... and by the way BIG THANK YOU FOR THAT:D

 

I'll play:

 

3. DoT-heavy DPS specs perform best when DoTs are refreshed as they expire, and suffer if they are clipped or fall off for too long, yet tracking our own DoTs can be challenging if there are similar DoT classes in the group. Similarly proc-heavy specs can have trouble recognizing their procs due to them shifting around constantly. Are any UI changes in the works to provide better QoL for DoT and proc tracking? Or are there any plans to alter DoT mechanics so their duration is extended if refreshed before expiration, rather than the current clip and re-apply.

 

4. Are there any UI changes in the works to allow filtering of buffs/debuffs on targets, so for example healers could emphasize debuffs and DoTs that they can cleanse (force vs tech)?

 

5. Why is there is still no option for legacy-wide bank tabs? At the very least, shouldn't my credit balance be attached to legacy?

 

6. Will we ever see account-wide friend/ignore lists?

 

EDIT: Most of these should probably appear in the Suggestion Box sub-forum, and these almost certainly do. But given the scarcity of Bioware responses there, that looks like a place where good ideas go to die.

Edited September 20, 2013 by NoFishing

[oaceen]

I'll play:

 

3. DoT-heavy DPS specs perform best when DoTs are refreshed as they expire, and suffer if they are clipped or fall off for too long, yet tracking our own DoTs can be challenging if there are similar DoT classes in the group. Similarly proc-heavy specs can have trouble recognizing their procs due to them shifting around constantly. Are any UI changes in the works to provide better QoL for DoT and proc tracking? Or are there any plans to alter DoT mechanics so their duration is extended if refreshed before expiration, rather than the current clip and re-apply.

 

4. Are there any UI changes in the works to allow filtering of buffs/debuffs on targets, so for example healers could emphasize debuffs and DoTs that they can cleanse (force vs tech)?

 

5. Why is there is still no option for legacy-wide bank tabs? At the very least, shouldn't my credit balance be attached to legacy?

 

6. Will we ever see account-wide friend/ignore lists?

 

EDIT: Most of these should probably appear in the Suggestion Box sub-forum, and these almost certainly do. But given the scarcity of Bioware responses there, that looks like a place where good ideas go to die.

 

this was tossed around in the scoundrel questions discussion, but most of us felt that it wasn't really specific to our class and could result in a 'there are technical limitations' or 'no plans at this time' type of response, so we were hesitant to burn a question on it.

[NoFishing]

this was tossed around in the scoundrel questions discussion, but most of us felt that it wasn't really specific to our class and could result in a 'there are technical limitations' or 'no plans at this time' type of response, so we were hesitant to burn a question on it.

 

Absolutely. But it was the kind of narrow question that I was hopeful could be asked in round 2. But now that the rest of round 1 has been put on hold for the foreseeable future, it seems unlikely we will ever reach a point where such miscellaneous questions can be included as part of class discussions. My feeling is the next round of questions is now likely to be a rehash of 1.0, since patch 2.5 is unlikely to resolve the current concerns for most classes, and we'll feel it necessary to revisit the same issues again.

[mmjarec]

They dont seem to have any sense of urgency with issues that have lingered way too long. Their snail pace is unacceptable and is in part the reason ppl left along with their seeming ambivalence about everything players bring up.

 

Getting around to it eventually will do nothing but drain subs slowly but consistently

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Absolutely. But it was the kind of narrow question that I was hopeful could be asked in round 2. But now that the rest of round 1 has been put on hold for the foreseeable future, it seems unlikely we will ever reach a point where such miscellaneous questions can be included as part of class discussions. My feeling is the next round of questions is now likely to be a rehash of 1.0, since patch 2.5 is unlikely to resolve the current concerns for most classes, and we'll feel it necessary to revisit the same issues again.

 

Yup. This is why I don't get why they think dropping the questions is a good idea. Judging by the responses to questions asked, they DON'T know what most players are saying or finding issues with classes. Even comments on the PTS forums are missed, which I find baffling (Quick Shot has been complained about since the game was in beta, and it took asking a question about it to have it looked at). I'm not saying the devs should waste all their time on the forums, but not paying attention to them at all is a problem as well.

 

Again, I could get it if they wanted to wait a bit after the mirror class got their questions before restarting them, but clipping off what they said was planned is just the wrong way to do it.

 

For the record, I LIKE the Class Rep program and think it was a good idea (if not always executed well). That's why this is bugging me.

[Gyronamics]

It's a massive snub to everyone who worked on the questions to cut us off halfway and say they'll get back to us when they're less busy.

 

That is what was said in a nutshell.

 

It matters because we were told explicitly that what was said has no guaranteed weight with them but they'll hear what we think about our classes anyway.

 

Well no they won't because half of our limited question slots have been put on infinite hold so if you had something pertinent to say that's just too bad. You should have had the foresight to get it in the first 3 before they got fed up with reading them.

[cashogy_reborn]

It's a massive snub to everyone who worked on the questions to cut us off halfway and say they'll get back to us when they're less busy.

 

That is what was said in a nutshell.

 

It matters because we were told explicitly that what was said has no guaranteed weight with them but they'll hear what we think about our classes anyway.

 

Well no they won't because half of our limited question slots have been put on infinite hold so if you had something pertinent to say that's just too bad. You should have had the foresight to get it in the first 3 before they got fed up with reading them.

 

Giving them the benefit of the doubt a bit, maybe they are working on a slew of changes based on the feedback that came with these questions? If that is what is happening, we may see the fruits of that labor in 2.5, at which case it seems logical for the next round of questions to start up so we can give feedback on the new changes.

 

That said, I cant help but remember the history of decision making this dev team has, at which point I have to agree with you. This Class Rep thing was nothing but a PR stunt to say "hey look! we talk with the community tons about class issues!", and I highly doubt anything worthwhile results from it.

 

Somewhat unrelated, it has been a full week since the Merc questions were submitted, where the hell are the responses? Has any other round taken longer than a week?

Edited September 24, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[eartharioch]

Giving them the benefit of the doubt a bit, maybe they are working on a slew of changes based on the feedback that came with these questions? If that is what is happening, we may see the fruits of that labor in 2.5, at which case it seems logical for the next round of questions to start up so we can give feedback on the new changes.

 

Unfortunately, that's probably what they are doing -- making changes based on partial feedback when they said they wanted everybody's feedback. Can't see how that could go wrong.

[HeavyMetil]

The have not really made an effort for anything pvp wise sense launch, the ff14 arr arena patch will kill this. You will have some operative, warriors and pts that linger. But everyone else will leave, there already have the same customization as swtor come patch 2.1. They do not care about the community. They only care about a bonus. Edited October 8, 2013 by HeavyMetil

[spectreclees]

They really need at least 3-4 Community managers/forum posters for Bioware who actively help Eric get the information out.