Class Representatives Update!

[CommanderKeeva]

While I get what you're trying to say here and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, I believe you're making a poor decision to cut ties with the community. However, I would like to emphasise two things:

 

First of all, I'm reasonably certain that the community is fully capable of coming up with different questions the second time around. Repetitiveness is nonsense and you would know that if you took a look at the Mercenary or Shadow forums (which I assume you did, if you're going to answer those questions). Then you had to have seen that the community chose between 5-6, equally important and meaningful questions. Saying that we would have asked the same questions is just a sad and transparent excuse.

 

And secondly, if you're going to do any rebalancing in 2.5 (which I somewhat doubt), you had better focus on the classes that need the changes the most. Some specs (Sin/Shadow Tanks; Merc/Mando healers) need fundamental rebalancing to be competitive with other tanks and healers. Some specs (Merc/Mando DPS; Sin/Shadow DPS) need significant rebalancing to be competitive with other DPS.

 

If all you're going to do is tweaking Sentinel and Sniper cooldowns or giving more survivability to Operative healers or more defensive cooldowns to Juggernaut tanks, don't even do anything. You'll just piss everyone off again.

 

TL;DR: For the love of Jesus, if you're going to do rebalancing in 2.5, focus on Pyro/Assault; Bodyguard/Combat Medic; Darkness/Kinetic Combat; Madness/Balance etc! For once, address the issues that need addressing the most!

[Bilirubin]

 

I regret this decision. I certainly understand it from what you said Eric, but better communication in and of itself is good and healthy. Had we known this ahead of time, it might have changed the questions asked in the Shadow set--there was a great deal of coordination done between the Shadow and Assassin communities to avoid repetition. Expecting for repeats in just the first round of questions does us a bit of a disservice. And I do think your devs should consider taking, say, the madness/balance question off the bonus set and answering it because, to be fair, you all had said you were looking into the tank spike issue months ago. That should really be an automatically forthcoming answer without a need for us to ask.

 

Still, I am looking forward to seeing what the answers will be.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Bilirubin

[DarthOvertone]

Once we have returned the Shadow and Mercenary top 3 which were submitted last week, we will be putting it on hold.

 

Well...there goes some quality forum entertainment for a few months.

 

lol

[manchusabre]

So I guess they hope the sub par dps classes stay around til 2.5? I've been seeing more people leave lately. It does feel as if the representative thing was more of a distraction then actual intent to improve the classes. I sure hope the representatives got some sort of compensation for all the time they put into it.

[RynZelara]

So sorcs must heal other games to full. And Make Bioware Pay for trying its hardest to kill our class for top-end content, which apparently the vaunted "metrics" don't measure. (Or is it maybe a matter of the handful players in the entire world who are good enough to get gimped classes through NiM/viable in competitive ranked skewing the metrics for everyone else?)

 

I had hoped Bioware would use the sage Q&A as a chance to address our class issues in a more constructive manner, but now that won't be happening. And I suppose those who accuse us of wanting ponies and unicorns can mock the shadows for wanting the issues with their gimped class looked at, too.

 

I'll be honest--my guild is very desperately trying to get me to stay in the game at this point as I've reactivated my old EVE Online account in reaction to heal to full burnout. I've found myself playing EVE more, SWTOR less.

 

While I cannot speak for PvP, since I do not PvP, I can say with 100% certainty that Sages are fully capable of NiM endgame content, in as little as half 69/72 gear. The complaint about force management is ridiculous, it IS possible to manage energy properly and still put out the healing numbers required by operations. The OPs are MEANT to be challenging, that's the point. Is it fair that Scoundrels are OP? Not at all. But as far as PvE goes, it's not that Sages are gimped. Scoundrels are just a little better than I think the devs intended.

[AdrianDmitruk]

While I cannot speak for PvP, since I do not PvP, I can say with 100% certainty that Sages are fully capable of NiM endgame content, in as little as half 69/72 gear. The complaint about force management is ridiculous, it IS possible to manage energy properly and still put out the healing numbers required by operations. The OPs are MEANT to be challenging, that's the point. Is it fair that Scoundrels are OP? Not at all. But as far as PvE goes, it's not that Sages are gimped. Scoundrels are just a little better than I think the devs intended.

 

I mainly PVP, so I speak from the opposite POV. I rely on the parses provided by NiM PVErs that show DPS sorcs pay a hybrid tax of 10-15% because they can heal to full in NIM operations, while at the same time being far more vulnerable to certain RNG 34k-hit mechanics than other classes that require less babysitting from healers. Yes, healer sorcs can babysit themselves and don't have as many problems, but DPS sorcs find themselves balanced around "off-heals" survivability for operations that do not allow the time/GCDs to utilize said off-heals before hitting enrage.

 

However, being that I am a PVPer and don't really have a PVE set worthy of NiM myself (because I choose to focus on PVP), it is difficult for me to independently verify the complaints of PVE sorcs in top-end PVE content. However, given what sorcs have endured since 1.2, I'm inclined to believe them. It's a long history.

 

As for energy management: Yes, it's possible. It's not on the top of the list of complaints about the class I main. However, I do quietly note that this has been nerfed in 1.2 (heals used to be able to consume procs to eliminate the health loss of consumption), AND we are the only class that MUST spend GCDs to get its mana pool back. Every other class that has an on-demand mechanic to return mana has it off the GCD, and such abilities are balanced around their own internal CDs. While personally I would have elected to ask about something else in place of the energy management question, it is nevertheless a discrepancy worth noting.

 

As for PVP, which I do have plenty of experience with, I will just say that for a class that is balanced around pillar humping, LOS, heal to full, make them pay, our control for impeding melee pursuit of us is sorely lacking (especially considering the multitude of anti-kiting abilities in this game), with the exception of lightning tree. Again, we have seen this continually nerfed since 1.2, and I'm not just talking about team bubblestun (which was ridiculous and little more than a temporary band-aid to the utter ridiculousness that was and still is lolderpsmashftw). We've had instant whirlwind taken away, our knockback nerfed from 360 to conal, and electric bindings moved up so only one spec could get it, while every other knockback in the game (save sins, which share ours) gets some form of follow-up movement impairment baseline. Smashmonkeys can break our stun with utter impunity irrespective of respecting the resolve mechanic, as they know we cannot follow up the stun with anything else to Make Them Pay when we are under pressure. From a PVP perspective, I can safely say that we are gimped.

Edited September 19, 2013 by AdrianDmitruk

[oaceen]

i don't think i would call balance updates in 2.5 good news.

 

it's just... news. i think it's only clarifying the earlier statement 'don't expect balance changes before 2.5-2.6' and saying we'll at least get them in 2.5 instead of possibly later than that.

i still don't agree though. lots of balance changes should be happening going into arenas imo. we've had many months since 2.0, and very minimal balance changes.

 

i would also strongly argue that perception problems are very real problems. if the community believes a class does poorly, then individuals rarely get the chance to prove it otherwise, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy so-to-speak.

Edited September 19, 2013 by oaceen

[OldSpiceSwag]

i guess the question becomes, "when will 2.5 drop approximately" also known as "when will the pvp patch be updated to actually become THE pvp patch we've been waiting for for about 2 years"

[dscount]

You know.. it wouldn't kill them to make SOME SORT OF CHANGE to classes they know are gimped.

 

Sin/Shadow Tanks are weak and squishy you confirmed? Fine, increase stance a couple digits to make them a tad more crunchy.

 

Sage/Sorc CRIT sucks you have said? Fine, tweak the crit rating % up a couple points in the tree.

 

Both these are SIMPLE and yes I'm sure a single digit increase in the database is SIMPLE to make.

 

SIMPLE CHANGES - Shows you give a crap! Waiting for 2.4 and then 2.5 to make knee jerk reactive changes to watch people complain for another 2-4 months is not showing your customers you care.

 

To summarize: TWEAK Stuff that is EASY and will have a positive impact on issues everyone agrees with. Or wait for 2.4 to have a MASS EXODUS and then 2.5 whomever is left will also bail out after Non-FOTM classes they expected to have "FIXED" are still broken.

 

Sorry BIOWARE.. you guys are waiting WAY TOO LONG for stuff to get fixed. I'm losing interest alongside a great many people I know that are still here actually (Barely). If Wildstar and EOSL came out this fall you could most likely scale down servers again.

Edited September 19, 2013 by dscount

[LordArtemis]

A set of tweaks would probably be welcomed, as long as it does not lead to nerfs and/or mob rebalances in PVE. The lack of tweaks would probably not lead to mass exodus, since I believe most players feel the current balance is a bit off but generally fine and do not feel the changes are direly needed.

 

Either way, the classes need attention, but I do not think it is critical. It is mostly only critical to top end endgame and PVP players....traditional hardcore players.

[DaftVaduhhh]

Eric, as I read the questions, in my opinion what I see is a disconnect between the class designers and Operations designers, regarding the DPS potential of every DPS spec'd class. I know that as part of a NiM Progression group, we are only bringing Gunslingers (3x) and Sentinals (1x). We tried to bring a Commando, and even in perfectly min-maxed gear he was still well behind what the Snipers were doing.

 

Simply put, the enrage timers don't allow any of the non-pure DPS classes to be included in a hard core operation group, because those classes are doing 10% (minimum) less damage than the "pure" DPS classes. And this is what I would say the core of the issue is with community rage.

 

In the next round of Q&A, answers to pure class questions, combined with some form of answer from the designers that make the Ops encounters sure would be nice. TIA

I'm sorry but that is blatantly wrong. That's going to engender a L2P response from me, and I'm more forgiving than the Devs.

 

Here's approximately how single target operations parses look for competent players of all ACs in optimised 72 gear with all the bells and whistles, and without posting the best parse for RNG in every 100:

 

Sage: TK 2900, Balance 2800

Shadow: Balance 2900, Infil 2800

Scoundrel: DF 2950, Scrapper 2800

Guardian: Vig: 2900, Focus 2650

Vanguard: Assault 2900, Tactics 2800, Hybrid 2850

Commando: Gunnery 2950, Assault 2800

Sentinel: Watchman 2950, Combat 3050, Focus 2700

Gunslinger: SS 2950, Sab 2650/3200*, DF: 2900, Hybrid: 2800

 

That's assuming you get to turret the whole fight and not have to worry about mechanics and an excellent (if not perfect) rotation, which is completely inaccurate.

 

Take a good look at Thrasher parses (HM, not NiM, you can tell by the duration of the parse, and pay close attention to the date of parses to ensure as little 75 gear as possible to pull down some data for comparison).

 

If your complaint is then how specs peform against high DR NPCs in NiM Ops, I would turn around and say change spec for the fight to increase the Int/Ele vs K/E damage ratio, the same way I would tell a ranged DPS to consider a more mobile spec for a fight like NiM DG.

 

You might have grounds to complain about class balance in terms of play style, and how operations are structured around this. I would be the first to say Shadow DPS is infuriating to play in current operations content; it's just not fun for most people. Likewise I would say Sage is also not fun.

 

Viability, however, is without question.

 

As to the person who cried foul about Sage DPS, I don't need to parse TK to know you're not going to run out of resources...well... ever, but I thought I'd jump on my healer and take a look at how Balance performs in a drawn out parse.

 

Screwing up, accuracy forcing me to apply DoTs more frequently and probably missing and misapplying the odd wrong GCD, I ran out of force after 10 mins. I would say this would translate to at worst 8 mins on a good parse in the right gear (I should note I do not have 4-set for an extra 50 force on my healer, I just didn't manage to spam FiB on CD to the extent there should have been 8 more in the parse, and probably a similar number for Disturbance and DoT reapplication).

 

That's enough sustained DPS for any encounter in the game, and for the foreseeable future. Healers running out of resources aren't using Noble Sac very well at all in their rotation, nor the cost benefit from Resplendence on Salvation when HT is on CD.

 

DPS running out of resources are either spamming Force Quake as a Balance Sage when they probably shouldn't, or not using Procs and fillers at all well as either spec. My guess is that the Sages that are complaining the most are Hybrid, and are foregoing themselves a decent amount of survivability and decent amount of DPS for a small amount of burst. It's a silly trade off and one that should be tossed away in favour of running TK.

 

As for the question of survivability for DPS, they're about as screwed as any other DPS in PvE content if they pull threat, except for their immunity move which drops threat on many mechanics. In PvP, Sage is afforded a lot of control moves that most people wouldn't consider, and will probably come to the fore a bit more in Arenas due to the lower numbers and greater need for coordination.

 

Force Armor (6.5k protection when talented in 72 PvE gear) and Force Mend (11-12k crits when talented in 72 PvE gear) are powerful abilities alongside Force Barrier. If Peckenpaugh (let's not kid ourselves, he wrote the Sage/Sorc response) was intending to inform players not to stand in damage and use healing at critical moments with Mental Alacrity up as politely as only Austin could manage, then I suppose he has a point.

 

I don't think Balance or Seer have a survivability issue in PvP if they're doing their best to maintain range and their team mates are actually peeling when they are being double/triple teamed. I think TK could have perhaps a small claim but they get so much more control and a shorter Force Speed cooldown. If people want to swap some of that in for DR, I think the Devs would listen.

Edited September 19, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[mmjarec]

Why would the numbers tighen up that like for nighmare mode? Its too wierd its probably some artificial gimmick to push everyone closer?

 

Either way basing your balance on one type of gameplay is a horrible idea. The dps shouldnt swing like that

[DaftVaduhhh]

Why would the numbers tighen up that like for nighmare mode? Its too wierd its probably some artificial gimmick to push everyone closer?

 

Either way basing your balance on one type of gameplay is a horrible idea. The dps shouldnt swing like that

The numbers don't tighten up like that in NiM mode. They vary from player to player, spec to spec and fight to fight.

 

The numbers I have listed are so tight because they are expected DPS, I have probably managed to bump up a few classes in their prime spec by 50-100 DPS in some cases, but it was an approximation on my part.

 

The high parsing specs right now vary wildly in how they parse on dummy because a lot of them involve people stacking power and getting some good luck with crits. If you look at their parsing logs you will see that DPS figure fluctuate as high as 3300 (current combat Sentinel record in KD gear) to as low as 2800 in the same circumstances in terms of the application of the player. The rest is just RNG.

 

That's built around good proc rates, a few lucky crits and being a bit more on the ball with CDs. My figures factor in players of equal skill and gear, with biochem using armor debuff and correct cooldown usage. They're off the top of my head estimates, but if you break down the TORParse stats on Thrasher by AC (and set it to 8M HM/NM) you will see what I mean.

Edited September 19, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[dscount]

Is it fair that Scoundrels are OP? Not at all. But as far as PvE goes, it's not that Sages are gimped. Scoundrels are just a little better than I think the devs intended.

 

Interesting. Not gimped but other class is better than intended. HAHA... you understand that is pretty much saying compared to the other class "yes, yes they are gimped".

 

Maybe if they fixed our FORCE REGEN BUG then it would work itself out? PLUS Two specs in the Sage/Sorc tree consume force like it's beer in a frat house while the third seems to have so much extra it can force bubble the party as a DPS and still keep enough on hand to fight. Something is fundamentally wrong with this picture!

 

Yes you can Heal NiM on a Sage/Sorc (I do), but when you have one class clearly out performing another you don't GIMP that one, you bring the other one(s) up to the same level and "BALANCE" said abilities. Utility is fine, but core healing should still be fairly close and on par with all healers for both end game content and PVP.

 

I'm convinced the weighted metrics they have given Sage/Sorc utility is garbage and needs a rework. The two other healing classes have almost as many utilities and even "FREE" resources AND healing w/o cost of own health.

[odawgg]

Seems reasonable, but little discouraged they don't keep the questions going...even if class changes aren't happening till 2.5 continued interaction is healthy for the community and we can always continue to elect more class reps after 2.5 to discuss those changes.

[Glower]

You will begin to see class changes in Game Update 2.5.

 

This is so slow... TOO SLOW!!!! /cry

Edited September 19, 2013 by Glower

[DaftVaduhhh]

Interesting. Not gimped but other class is better than intended. HAHA... you understand that is pretty much saying compared to the other class "yes, yes they are gimped".

 

Maybe if they fixed our FORCE REGEN BUG then it would work itself out? PLUS Two specs in the Sage/Sorc tree consume force like it's beer in a frat house while the third seems to have so much extra it can force bubble the party as a DPS and still keep enough on hand to fight. Something is fundamentally wrong with this picture!

 

Yes you can Heal NiM on a Sage/Sorc (I do), but when you have one class clearly out performing another you don't GIMP that one, you bring the other one(s) up to the same level and "BALANCE" said abilities. Utility is fine, but core healing should still be fairly close and on par with all healers for both end game content and PVP.

 

I'm convinced the weighted metrics they have given Sage/Sorc utility is garbage and needs a rework. The two other healing classes have almost as many utilities and even "FREE" resources AND healing w/o cost of own health.

Play a commando healer and get back to me. I'll wait.

[Kurin]

I'm sorry but that is blatantly wrong. That's going to engender a L2P response from me, and I'm more forgiving than the Devs.

 

Here's approximately how single target operations parses look for competent players of all ACs in optimised 72 gear with all the bells and whistles, and without posting the best parse for RNG in every 100:

 

Sage: TK 2900, Balance 2800

Shadow: Balance 2900, Infil 2800

Scoundrel: DF 2950, Scrapper 2800

Guardian: Vig: 2900, Focus 2650

Vanguard: Assault 2900, Tactics 2800, Hybrid 2850

Commando: Gunnery 2950, Assault 2800

Sentinel: Watchman 2950, Combat 3050, Focus 2700

Gunslinger: SS 2950, Sab 2650/3200*, DF: 2900, Hybrid: 2800

 

That's assuming you get to turret the whole fight and not have to worry about mechanics and an excellent (if not perfect) rotation, which is completely inaccurate.

 

I'm sorry....how many NiM bosses have you killed? Get back to me when your group that DOESN'T have at least 3 pure DPS class members are able to kill NiM Writhing Horror, much less are able to clear and instance. The real world DPS numbers needed to beat the enrage timers are simply not possible bringing those other classes.

 

And yes, I'm in Invictus on The Harbinger...which should give you an indication of my NiM experience.

[mmjarec]

Stuff like this is why people are bailing and they have such a bad rep. If yu cant keep up with your own pace then dont leak info just showing how slow you are. This statement was jist the first in what will likely be months of excuses and ultimately lead to half arsed attempts to fix thigs thst will likely be broken just like the last patch borked cz 198

[Glower]

Could you elaborate on what the combat team actually does? Could we get some details in the process you guys use to balance classes?

 

They were counting the cartel market income. Now they are going to buff smashers and slingers and play golf or cricket.

 

By the way, I'm wondering what's the UI team been doing? Rodeo I guess.

 

Teams, yeah!

1-2 part-time workers and hours of /played in minesweeper.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Glower

[RynZelara]

I'm sorry....how many NiM bosses have you killed? Get back to me when your group that DOESN'T have at least 3 pure DPS class members are able to kill NiM Writhing Horror, much less are able to clear and instance. The real world DPS numbers needed to beat the enrage timers are simply not possible bringing those other classes.

 

And yes, I'm in Invictus on The Harbinger...which should give you an indication of my NiM experience.

 

Our guild can have a group of people consisting of a Vanguard, a Commando, a Sage, and a Gunslinger who can EASILY meet DPS requirements on endgame NiM content, in 72 gear.

 

Don't spout nonsense. The capability is there for the other classes to output the damage.

[RynZelara]

Interesting. Not gimped but other class is better than intended. HAHA... you understand that is pretty much saying compared to the other class "yes, yes they are gimped".

 

Maybe if they fixed our FORCE REGEN BUG then it would work itself out? PLUS Two specs in the Sage/Sorc tree consume force like it's beer in a frat house while the third seems to have so much extra it can force bubble the party as a DPS and still keep enough on hand to fight. Something is fundamentally wrong with this picture!

 

Yes you can Heal NiM on a Sage/Sorc (I do), but when you have one class clearly out performing another you don't GIMP that one, you bring the other one(s) up to the same level and "BALANCE" said abilities. Utility is fine, but core healing should still be fairly close and on par with all healers for both end game content and PVP.

 

I'm convinced the weighted metrics they have given Sage/Sorc utility is garbage and needs a rework. The two other healing classes have almost as many utilities and even "FREE" resources AND healing w/o cost of own health.

 

Be convinced of whatever you like, but healing with a Sage/Sorc is not impossible, I successfully do it every week. And it isn't painful or stressful at all. It feels fine. I'm not sure what this force regen bug is you're talking about, but if it's something important then I sure haven't noticed it.

 

Heck, I've been stuck solo healing the last minute of some boss fights before. I solo healed NiM Kephess soft enrage at the end by myself. *shrug*

 

I don't have numbers for you. I don't have a spreadsheet for you. But in my experience, Sage healing feels just fine where it is in relation to endgame PvE content. Again, I cannot speak for PvP since I don't do it, and I'm 100% confident in the people who are saying that Sages need to be reworked in PvP. Not in PvE though. If the content is too hard, don't play it. You can't expect the devs to change content (or classes) to cater to someone who is, in essence, saying "Waaa, this is too hard! Make it easier." The Sorc questions were terrible, and it reflected the attitude that Sorc/Sage players felt entitled and wanted freebies to make the game easier.

 

This is all just my personal opinion, so you are free to disagree with it. All I'm saying is that, not only is endgame PvE content possible with a Sage, it's MORE than possible, DPS OR healing. *shrug*

[mmjarec]

Our guild can have a group of people consisting of a Vanguard, a Commando, a Sage, and a Gunslinger who can EASILY meet DPS requirements on endgame NiM content, in 72 gear.

 

Don't spout nonsense. The capability is there for the other classes to output the damage.

 

Where is the assassin in that group. Oh right your plan was to actualy kill a boss

[RynZelara]

Where is the assassin in that group. Oh right your plan was to actualy kill a boss

 

......The capability is there for MOST classes to output the damage. =P Lol jk. I've seen NiM capable parses for all classes, and I'm not just talking about the stupid high crit rate ones. I don't necessarily agree with the L2P response the devs gave Sorcs (which reflects a bit of their attitude on the matter) but at it's core it can't be denied as having some truth. At the same time, content shouldn't be so frustratingly hard that only a select few can do it. I think BW is having trouble finding that balance right now (pre-nerf DG anyone?). Am I making excuses for them? Absolutely not. They should get their crap together and do something to fix the imbalance in the game.

 

It just frustrates me how some are blowing this imbalance out of proportion, as if it were game breaking. It isn't (not for PvE anyway).

[mmjarec]

......The capability is there for MOST classes to output the damage. =P Lol jk. I've seen NiM capable parses for all classes, and I'm not just talking about the stupid high crit rate ones. I don't necessarily agree with the L2P response the devs gave Sorcs (which reflects a bit of their attitude on the matter) but at it's core it can't be denied as having some truth. At the same time, content shouldn't be so frustratingly hard that only a select few can do it. I think BW is having trouble finding that balance right now (pre-nerf DG anyone?). Am I making excuses for them? Absolutely not. They should get their crap together and do something to fix the imbalance in the game.

 

It just frustrates me how some are blowing this imbalance out of proportion, as if it were game breaking. It isn't (not for PvE anyway).

 

It is gamebreaking for sins when they cant get into groups or effective warzone parties necause their dps is so low they are useless