Class Representatives Update!

[LordArtemis]

I think a stance would take care of the Sin issue and would not effect balance in any meaningful way...utility would be reduced while DPS increased to proper levels.

[oaceen]

I think a stance would take care of the Sin issue and would not effect balance in any meaningful way...utility would be reduced while DPS increased to proper levels.

 

shadows already have stances....

 

and i don't know why people keep suggesting lowering utility to increase dps. if anything, they probably need more. the pull is already tied to tanking only, and they have basic CC capabilities comparable with other classes. shadow dps can taunt like guardian and vanguard dps and immediately die with their light armor unlike guardians and vanguards. that is not utility.

[mmjarec]

I think a stance would take care of the Sin issue and would not effect balance in any meaningful way...utility would be reduced while DPS increased to proper levels.

 

What utity do you speak of. Oh you mean the out of combat rez? One highly situational doesnt mean uility as it would for sorcs with heals or bubbles or other classes that can heal or have a plethora of ccs and 10x more dmg

[SCHodge]

Eric,

 

Would you considered merging the forums for the mirrored ACs, and hence the representatives? I know the Shadow/Assassin community basically worked as one on their Top 3 (in fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was actually the Assassin Qs but using Shadow terms).

 

It would certainly make locating the most recent guide, theorycrafting, gearing, etc. for a class easier.

 

The Hodcos @ The Harbinger

[DaftVaduhhh]

I'm sorry....how many NiM bosses have you killed? Get back to me when your group that DOESN'T have at least 3 pure DPS class members are able to kill NiM Writhing Horror, much less are able to clear and instance. The real world DPS numbers needed to beat the enrage timers are simply not possible bringing those other classes.

 

And yes, I'm in Invictus on The Harbinger...which should give you an indication of my NiM experience.

Good for you, I've cleared NiM WH and Dash'roode. You'd have to talk to my healers to find out why we're not clearing more.

 

Group comp is VG & Guard Tank, VG, Sent, GS & Commando DPS, Sage & Commando Heals; enrage has never been an issue. L2P and rage less.

Edited September 19, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[DaftVaduhhh]

It is gamebreaking for sins when they cant get into groups or effective warzone parties necause their dps is so low they are useless

This *is* an Inaccurate statement reflecting a poor perception of the class. The class is boring, not uncompetitive in PvE. It doesn't parse well on dummy because it was nerfed for PvP in such a way as to make it look bad compared to other classes on a dummy parse.

 

If you've not looked around, and just clucked about your own MoX numbers, then yes, I'm going to call you Chicken Little.

Edited September 19, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[Berjiz]

This *is* an Inaccurate statement reflecting a poor perception of the class. The class is boring, not uncompetitive in PvE. It doesn't parse well on dummy because it was nerfed for PvP in such a way as to make it look bad compared to other classes on a dummy parse.

 

If you've not looked around, and just clucked about your own MoX numbers, then yes, I'm going to call you Chicken Little.

It's fine when they are alone but as soon as you have several madness specs(sorcs or sins) their dps drops a lot. Basically the problem is not the reachable dps, it's how hard/easy it is to reach decent levels and qualify of life issuses.

[RynZelara]

This *is* an Inaccurate statement reflecting a poor perception of the class. The class is boring, not uncompetitive in PvE. It doesn't parse well on dummy because it was nerfed for PvP in such a way as to make it look bad compared to other classes on a dummy parse.

 

If you've not looked around, and just clucked about your own MoX numbers, then yes, I'm going to call you Chicken Little.

 

^ This, only not quite so harsh. A good Shadow in 72s can average a 2600 on a dummy. That's without armor debuff. That's without it's execute talents. The actual number when you factor in armor debuff and generally static fighting (like Thrasher) is going to be much higher. If the fight is not Infil friendly, switch to balance. Balance too boring? Well that's something for the devs to consider. But as it was mentioned, it isn't uncompetitive.

 

That's why I look at an average 2800 parse on my Sage and feel confident in it. That's before armor debuff. A good Sage DPS can pull the numbers. A good Shadow DPS can pull the numbers. A good COmmando DPS can pull the numbers. Pretty much every class can pull the numbers. It's a matter of learning the class and how it interacts with each boss.

 

Does that mean class balance doesn't need to happen? Quite the opposite. It's still more advantageous to bring a Sent or a GS to a raid fight. But that ISN'T because the other classes are incapable or bad. It's because it's simply imbalanced. That much is not disputed.

[DaftVaduhhh]

It's fine when they are alone but as soon as you have several madness specs(sorcs or sins) their dps drops a lot. Basically the problem is not the reachable dps, it's how hard/easy it is to reach decent levels and qualify of life issuses.

What you have described is an issue with all DoT specs, and something that has been mentioned at Community Catina events as something BW would like to address.

 

For those who are obsessed with that 50-100 DPS they don't need in a competent group, there's stuff like TorAssistant.

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure at this point we've veered way off course.

Edited September 19, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[ArchangelLBC]

Couldn't even let all 16 classes get questions in huh? You guys do realize that several classes chose their questions predicated on the assumption that their mirrors would get a second set of three questions 8 weeks later? Now those follow up questions, which addressed issues that in many cases were arguably JUST as important as the issues actually raised, won't get mentioned at all. Worse, it seems very likely that we won't see 2.5 before the "second round", or the second half of round 1 depending on how you want to look at it, would have been done anyway, which means that just as the illusion of dialogue was starting to take hold, we can now look forward to 3-4 months of the infuriating silence which led to the need for class reps in the first place.

 

 

This SHOULD have started an actual ongoing dialogue that informed class balance. As is, this just reeks of the weak effort to placate the community that the more cynical among us always assumed it was. Turns out we weren't so placated so why keep it around right?

 

I'm sorry, but we need an idea of what's coming now, and we need some way to know that ongoing concerns are being heard by the combat team, and frankly Eric your past performance hasn't given me much confidence in your ability to ensure that happens. We've had to wait almost three months for an answer on such a fundamental problem as shadow tank spikiness which has been an issue literally since 2.0 launched, and we had to spend one of those very precious class rep questions to get that answer. What of the community's other concerns? Are those to be met with silence and false promises, if not outright lies, just as current issues have been? Have you learned nothing from this whole bloody process?

 

You say the bad news is that the class rep system is on hiatus (probably scrapped for good). Fair enough. How is it good news that we're having to wait even longer for class balance changes? Something which should have been ongoing from the second 2.0 launched delayed for over 9 months, and it's good news that it's not a year?

 

The only thing that has kept me subbed has been my guild, and it looks like I'm personally gonna be long gone before we ever see class changes. This farce is just becoming less and less funny.

Edited September 19, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[DaftVaduhhh]

They said we've got so much feedback, we are bringing changes in 2.5 and will announce them and more, then we'll throw back to the next set of questions.

 

Hold them to that if they don't deliver, in the mean time this is just steam and noise.

[fire-breath]

What is the ETA for 2.5? are we talking a week after 2.4 of 2 months??

 

Februari 12th - 1.7 Return of the Gree

<8 weeks later>

April 9th - 2.0 Scum and Villainy (aka RotHC)

<5 weeks later>

May 14th - 2.1 Customization

<4 weeks later>

June 12th - 2.2 Operation Nightmare

<8 weeks later>

August 6th - 2.3 Titans of industry

<8 weeks later>

ETA October 1st - 2.4

 

If you disregard the extra bonus patch 2.1 (there was a devpost about it that it was extra, dont know where to find it anymore) the current release scheduele has always been 8/9 weeks. This update release is also what bioware has stated as intended to follow

If I use deduction I would say that 2.5 ETA is late november / early december.

 

I'm sorry....how many NiM bosses have you killed? Get back to me when your group that DOESN'T have at least 3 pure DPS class members are able to kill NiM Writhing Horror, much less are able to clear and instance. The real world DPS numbers needed to beat the enrage timers are simply not possible bringing those other classes.

 

And yes, I'm in Invictus on The Harbinger...which should give you an indication of my NiM experience.

 

No offence, but the statement that you are in invictus doesnt mean anything and gives not more weight to your opinion. Assuming Invivtus has NiM content on farm:

1 - You dont provide names of your chars. For that matter I can be in invictus too without someone ever finding out I'm not

2 - Even if you are in Invictus it doesnt mean YOU do NiM content, only that a small amount of Invictus will do NiM, I cant believe all 60+ members of Invictus are participating in NiM (In my guilds this is the case at least)

 

That having said, In both guilds I'm in a NiM progression team that has TWH on farm. One guild uses a sage, commando, gunslinger and sentinel. The other guild uses whatever is available, mostly a vanguard, gunslinger, sentinel and commando.

The sage in the 1st guild outdps'es many sentinels I know, including the sentinels in both both of my teams.

 

Basicly, sage dps is hard to master and you will have a lot a non-NiM-ready sages running around. Some classes are just a bit more difficult to play. For example, and thats my personal opinion, the gs sharpshooter rotation is mindnumbingly easy while saboteur requires way more awereness to not ****up your rotation

[Berjiz]

What you have described is an issue with all DoT specs, and something that has been mentioned at Community Catina events as something BW would like to address.

 

For those who are obsessed with that 50-100 DPS they don't need in a competent group, there's stuff like TorAssistant.

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure at this point we've veered way off course.

Madness is affect much more than most of the others due the long duration of the dots verus the cd and madness has a higher % of dmg coming form the dots. Annihlation for instance has very little problems with dot tracking because its easy to not overlap. Madness can lose a lot more than 50-100 dps from it, and it's from each madness char aswell.

[NrDLeipe]

i lost my fate in this game , class balance should be a continues fix especcially with arena comeing and all you bin doing is cc market and some fluff fixes.

 

ended my sub you wont get a dime from me anymore, money driven * bleep *

[mmjarec]

This *is* an Inaccurate statement reflecting a poor perception of the class. The class is boring, not uncompetitive in PvE. It doesn't parse well on dummy because it was nerfed for PvP in such a way as to make it look bad compared to other classes on a dummy parse.

 

If you've not looked around, and just clucked about your own MoX numbers, then yes, I'm going to call you Chicken Little.

 

Actually i have facts you seem to thrive on assumptions. Ive ran multiple parses on multiple mbs and dummies assassins are the worst by far

 

And it doesnt matter if its someones perception that keeps you from getting a group at the end of the day you still cant get a group. And the ones who are the gatekeepers obviously have a correct perception thusly not letting them in based off parses and often personal experinces. What more proof do you need besides multiple parses and tons of first hand accounts

 

Sterotyoes as well as perceptions exist for a reason more often than not they are likely true and in this case backed up by multiple sources which are more credible tha your assptions because my statment has no assumptions iust facts

[NogueiraA]

Eric, 2.5 will be too late.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Doesn't matter what they change, someone won't be happy.

[mmjarec]

Doesn't matter what they change, someone won't be happy.

 

So they should just not bother at all?

[Gyronamics]

Oh for goodness sake.

 

I know for a fact there's been collaboration between Mercenary and Commando and some questions were specifically reserved for the second round when and because we knew what the first round was going to cover.

 

The second round was not to be the same questions again for the sake of it.

 

Not everything about questions is in the general discussion threads which may or may not be read but won't be acknowledged unlike a solid question which was promised to be.

 

So we can now go stick our second questions which will not be at all answered in the first round until or if ever you feel like listening to what our reps want to put forward.

 

We were promised six questions, any rep worth calling themselves a rep is not going to make it the same themes as their mirror class brings up but you don't believe our reps capable of that and in expectation of having to answer the same thing twice the whole thing is being suspended.

 

When you ask us what our problems are it would be nice if you listened to all of it before carrying on with what you were doing.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gyronamics

[Reno_Tarshil]

So they should just not bother at all?

 

No, they should change if it's needed but it won't matter what they change. Doomsayers from Day 1 will still bash this game, no matter what positives occur.

[mmjarec]

No, they should change if it's needed but it won't matter what they change. Doomsayers from Day 1 will still bash this game, no matter what positives occur.

 

Yeah whAts your point? Everyone knows ppl will always gripe. I dont see whycthey took more than 3 questions when they cant even answer those in time. Heaven forbid ifctjey had to work under time sensitive pressure like everyone else in america. If their balance werent so fubar tjey wouldt need to have more than three asked. Imo tjey should habe at least six they had to answer its not like its that hard

[CrazyOldMystic]

I read the op and my thoughts on this are as follows. You can not build a house without laying its foundation. In the trooper forums over the last couple months troopers have posted there issues with several key abilities. Mainly due to there lack of trooper feel when it comes to there trooper. These abilities being grav round, pulse cannon, and Ion pulse. One poster said it far better then I ever could. Instead to me it seems like devs want to keep following the old wow handbook, stats, dps, tank, and healing the end. Thats great if you got the class right to begin with. To me this is kind of frustrating for some simple reasons. The other day I ran across a Special assault trooper on Belsavis, it was a enemy npc, that was firing a Ion pulse/Pulse cannon ability at me. It was not this sorry to say lame thing we got now, instead it was a thick white blaster bolt with thick electric pulses around each bolt, and most importantly it was constrained to the size of the bolt. Looked very cool and looked very trooper like. If I had something like that on my vanguard id be happy. My vanguard is currently a tank, because with the tank spec, I can fire the pulse cannon extremely fast and thereby not be annoyed by the animation.

 

Thats just three basic things that people have been bringing up so lets take it one step forward. You have these great helmets in the game for troopers, specifically the outcast, and then you stick a big chunk of armor hanging off the back of them. Ok dont know why I can live it, then we get previews of the upcoming raid gear, pretty much outcast design but with out the chunk on the back. Great if you pve and if you get the drop. To me another slap in the face.

 

Ive also posted several times now about turning the padding Lacqerous Mesh heavy armor, on the republic side, to pitch black. It has been to no surprise ignored. If it ever was fixed its something my guild could use widespread, but right now with that look not likely. Why does it matter you may ask? For that design its the only one a armormech gets that's custom.

 

Like I said there is a tone of stuff that needs looked at, and Ive only talked about the trooper here. Its like one person said to me why is it that all the good looking gear is not custom? He was right. To add insult to injury the cartel market. You got the time to make that stuff but you do not have the time to fix the old?

 

To me the ops post seems to point to the fact, that they want to go on as business as usual keep making stuff, but not fixing the foundation of the game thats got a big hole in it right now. I can very well complain completely maybe they got the new space update right, I guess we will see when it comes out.

[fire-breath]

One thing what people might forget is that ALLTOUGH some questions won't be ansewered they still get heared by the combat team.

Just use the class rep post to discuss changes, offer opninions. The fact that we wont get a 2nd round doesnt mean Eric wont pass along good feedback.

 

I see the role of the current class rep to gather the different opnions, mold them into a single post and what not.

 

Long story short, dont be dishearted. We are still getting heared, even when they wont give us the larger answers. Buckle up, move to your subclass forum section and keep the discussion going.

[hadoken]

Doesn't matter what they change, someone won't be happy.

 

True, but that doesn't mean the opinions are invalid either. Not all changes or decisions are good for the game or its players. The developers are as human as the rest of us.

[Elfa]

First Sages and Sorcs need to ask better questions.

 

They Asked

 

• Why can't we have more defensive cooldowns on top of our own heals?
  
• Why are we shut down so easily?
  
• Force Cost is crappy
  

 

To which the dev's gave straight answers.

 

Sorc's have heals and should use them, not doing so is your own death warrant. You have Unnatural Preservation, which has a 30 sec cooldown and no force cost and on my Sorc who's 66's and 69's can crit for 10k quite often.

 

Every class can be shut down in one regard or another. How you combat that shutting down is up to you and your skill, not an issue that should be catered to make your life easy.

 

Force Cost is a resource, learn to manage it better. If a fight goes on for 10 minutes, sure the strain will get to you as it does a Mercenary's Heat, Sniper/Operative's Energy and even Rage generation can come into play in the later parts of a fight. Again, how you manage yourself and plan ahead, is skill, not an issue.

 

You are correct. As someone who has played a sorc as main since launch and not ran to other FOTH, I think Sorcs are nearly perfect fr what they are supposed to be. The problem is that too many of the people playing them expect them to be something else. They aren't meant to be the best at tanking/healing/DPS. Sorcs are utility and support classes, jacks of all trades and masters of none. They can survive through certain situations where marauders and Snipers would fold. They can escape better than almost any class and look good doing it.

 

Sorcs can be played to devastating effect in PVP. Those who say otherwise just expect it to be too easy for them to reach that level of use. They re an easy to play and hard to master class. Yes we all want to have our cake and eat it too, but I don't want to give up my healing or my damage to become better at the other or I would give up my utility and its just not worth it.

 

Yes, there are things they can do to improve DPS, surviveability healing and energy management, but finding that balance could take some time.