Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

[Eitetsu]

The "survivability" and corresponding "DPS output\totals" of Sorcs is strictly a PVP discussion. All of you mentioning their performance in raids seem to have missed this.

 

Sorcs are fine in PVE content as they are, whether as healer or DPS. If you, as a sorc, are finding that you are dieing a lot or your numbers are low in raid content, I'm sorry to say that means either you are screwing up mechanics, don't have mastery of your rotation, your guild is lackluster, or any number of these things combined.

 

PVP is a different story. You're playing against human beings, not AI. If someone decides to mow you down, it's going to happen. Tanks can't pull them off you, and your healer(s) might be occupied with someone\something else. Other classes have a "one-click" ability or two that increases their resilience for a short time while allowing them to continue throwing out the DPS. Sorcs on the other hand, according to the dev response, are supposed to barrier (which prevents them from DPS'ing) or self-heal (which prevents DPS'ing) or bubble (which breaks quickly for the amount of resources it expends).

 

^That is the discussion.

[mmjarec]

The "survivability" and corresponding "DPS output\totals" of Sorcs is strictly a PVP discussion. All of you mentioning their performance in raids seem to have missed this.

 

Sorcs are fine in PVE content as they are, whether as healer or DPS. If you, as a sorc, are finding that you are dieing a lot or your numbers are low in raid content, I'm sorry to say that means either you are screwing up mechanics, don't have mastery of your rotation, your guild is lackluster, or any number of these things combined.

 

PVP is a different story. You're playing against human beings, not AI. If someone decides to mow you down, it's going to happen. Tanks can't pull them off you, and your healer(s) might be occupied with someone\something else. Other classes have a "one-click" ability or two that increases their resilience for a short time while allowing them to continue throwing out the DPS. Sorcs on the other hand, according to the dev response, are supposed to barrier (which prevents them from DPS'ing) or self-heal (which prevents DPS'ing) or bubble (which breaks quickly for the amount of resources it expends).

 

^That is the discussion.

 

So you want to be able to heal or mitigate dmg while dpsing non stop? First off tanks *CAN* pull them off you and dramitically decrease their dmg output you seem to want the benefit of all classes with no drawbacks.

 

You say dps classes can activate mitigation and continue dpsing which they can. And so you can you. It costs one Gcd You also seem to forget They cant heal themselves whenever they want Id gladly give up a few seconds of dps to be able to heal. You also seem to forget that you have range to keep people off you. If you let them stay on you its your fault. Your mentaility of constant dps is to blame. You also forget they have to be in melee range and cannot blast away without putting themselves in danger like you can

 

Sorcs should not and will not get these changes because a few sorcs dont know how to pvp their class. You have survivability you jist have to be smart enough to use it correctly

 

Its insanely stupid to think you should be able to face tank and mitigate and continue to blast away. If you dont like it pick another class because sorc is obviously beyond your strategy level

[Slicksteezin]

OP sorry i have to say it, but most of what you are saying is just talking out of your ***. The ability to heal does not hinder the classes DPS potential in any way shape or form. Saying self healing DPS classes can't come within a 5-10% DPS margin output of strictly DPS classes is silly. Merc can do every bit as much DMG as a sniper, certainly more burst - probably a little less sustained. And i've seen operatives that can wreck a marauder in DPS parses. This an unnecessary thread.

[Eitetsu]

So you want to be able to heal or mitigate dmg while dpsing non stop? First off tanks *CAN* pull them off you and dramitically decrease their dmg output you seem to want the benefit of all classes with no drawbacks.

 

You say dps classes can activate mitigation and continue dpsing which they can. And so you can you. It costs one Gcd You also seem to forget They cant heal themselves whenever they want Id gladly give up a few seconds of dps to be able to heal. You also seem to forget that you have range to keep people off you. If you let them stay on you its your fault. Your mentaility of constant dps is to blame. You also forget they have to be in melee range and cannot blast away without putting themselves in danger like you can

 

Sorcs should not and will not get these changes because a few sorcs dont know how to pvp their class. You have survivability you jist have to be smart enough to use it correctly

 

Its insanely stupid to think you should be able to face tank and mitigate and continue to blast away. If you dont like it pick another class because sorc is obviously beyond your strategy level

 

Guy, I was not arguing in favor of any of this. I don't even play a Sorc (yet--she is only lvl 35). I was merely pointing what the argument actually IS. People keep bringing up performance in PvE, which is NOT what people are talking about when it comes to Sorcs. It is STRICTLY a PvP discussion. And I don't PvP much at all, let alone competitively, so I cannot comment specifically on Sorc effectiveness in PvP.

 

As a matter of fact, I DO NOT support ANY changes to Sorcs at this time, as I believe they are fine. I hate it when (claimed) issues in PvP end up forcing changes that affect PvE, especially when that issue does not also exist in PvE.

 

Nowhere did I mention any personal observations or experiences, and you assumed I'm a whiny Sorc who wants to be OP. You know what happens when you ASSume things, eh?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Eitetsu

[Ratajack]

I don't know how you could have possible gotten than from my OP, unless you simply didn't read it. What I clearly stated was that DPS classes with the ability to heal are unjustifiably punished with a lower overall DPS and survivability simply because they have healing abilities. Those abilities, however, not only fail to justify those loses but also are for all intents and purposes entirely obsolete when it comes to both PvE and PvP group content, and not even close to "top-notch" as you seem to imply (or you simply don't know what you are talking about).

 

I will put it in even simpler terms for you: The developers decided that purely DPS advanced classes that happen to have the ability to heal left over from picking that class (i.e. inquisitor --> sorcerer) should not be able to DPS nor have defensive abilities and cooldowns on par with other DPS classes that do not have the ability to heal, because apparently they perceive those latent healing abilities as giving said classes some kind of an advantage when in reality they are all but useless. Those are simply the facts about the state of the game at this time.

 

If you can't grasp that then I can't help you.

 

There are NO purely DPS classes that have the ability to heal. Having the ability to heal, by it's very nature, makes that class a hybrid.

 

You may spec into DPS, but as long as you have the ability to heal, you are NOT purely DPS and so should not have top notch DPS, or even within 5%.

[Grayseven]

There are NO purely DPS classes that have the ability to heal. Having the ability to heal, by it's very nature, makes that class a hybrid.

 

You may spec into DPS, but as long as you have the ability to heal, you are NOT purely DPS and so should not have top notch DPS, or even within 5%.

 

Wrong. A damage spec means you are a pure DPS. Heal specs can still do damage and that doesn't make them hybrids.

 

DPS specs with heals have lousy heals. Lousy. They take way too long to use or do too little healing with a long cooldown. Their availability does not make that AC a hybrid.

 

DPS specs with available heals should not have their DPS gimped just because those heals are available, but neither should those heals be worth more than any other "oh crap" ability that the DPS spec may have.

[hadoken]

The "survivability" and corresponding "DPS output\totals" of Sorcs is strictly a PVP discussion. All of you mentioning their performance in raids seem to have missed this.

 

The context of the Q&A actually was for both PVE and PVP. Perhaps you missed that.

[hadoken]

Wrong. A damage spec means you are a pure DPS. Heal specs can still do damage and that doesn't make them hybrids.

 

DPS specs with heals have lousy heals. Lousy. They take way too long to use or do too little healing with a long cooldown. Their availability does not make that AC a hybrid.

 

DPS specs with available heals should not have their DPS gimped just because those heals are available, but neither should those heals be worth more than any other "oh crap" ability that the DPS spec may have.

 

While I and it would appear most of the sorc players that have given feedback agree, it seems that BioWare is changing their stance on class roles. At least their answer implies that DPS specced classes are expected to use heals as defensive cooldowns now. It's a pretty disappointing answer and position. Really changes the game from how it was advertised/designed up until now.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Sorcs should not and will not get these changes because a few sorcs dont know how to pvp their class.

 

Few ? In Radom PUG PvP ? Which has of course an considerably MUCH HIGHER number of players than Ranked (which is about 1 % of the complete player base) ?

[DarkIntelligence]

Are you kidding you arent punished with lower survivability your heals are your survivability. Why do you think a ranged class that can heal should even have above aberage dps. You habe more dls than a melee class that cant heal

 

I just played with my 55 sorc and sin and you can snooze while playing a sorc its already ezmode. The only thing tjat is detrimental to your survivability is your playstyle and attitude you arent rambo. You have max distance for a reason and its not face tanking

 

I don't know what is it you just played with your sorc, but I can tell you it wasn't end game PvE or PvP your heals in that environment are, as I already stated, all but useless and certainly cannot ensure your survivability in anything other than solo content. No body is talking about "face tanking" or a "rambo playstyle" no idea why you are even bringing this up, unless, again, you are simply talking about solo content and leveling which coincidentally appears to be the extend of your experience with sorcs.

[oaceen]

OP sorry i have to say it, but most of what you are saying is just talking out of your ***. The ability to heal does not hinder the classes DPS potential in any way shape or form. Saying self healing DPS classes can't come within a 5-10% DPS margin output of strictly DPS classes is silly. Merc can do every bit as much DMG as a sniper, certainly more burst - probably a little less sustained. And i've seen operatives that can wreck a marauder in DPS parses. This an unnecessary thread.

 

i think you should look at the recent sorc answers in that bioware said, since sorcs can heal, they will not do as much damage or have as many defensive cooldowns as dps-only classes like sniper or marauders.

 

the reason this thread was created was in response to that comment from the devs themselves.

[DarkIntelligence]

OP sorry i have to say it, but most of what you are saying is just talking out of your ***. The ability to heal does not hinder the classes DPS potential in any way shape or form. Saying self healing DPS classes can't come within a 5-10% DPS margin output of strictly DPS classes is silly. Merc can do every bit as much DMG as a sniper, certainly more burst - probably a little less sustained. And i've seen operatives that can wreck a marauder in DPS parses. This an unnecessary thread.

 

Talk about pulling stuff out of someone's ***... First of all I never said that the ability to heal directly diminishes your DPS potential, that's just preposterous, the design failure which arose from the developer's misguided notion that classes with healing abilities should not be able to deal as much DPS as classes without, is the cause. Furthermore I said 5%-10% is perfectly acceptable but 10%-15% (which is what it is at the moment among similarly geared and skilled DPS) is NOT. Lastly while it is true that this problem affects some DPS AC's with heals more so than others (for example mercs are certainly on the higher end of that percentile margin, as you point out), the only thing that shows is further incompetence in the implementation of class balance. As for a merc beating an sniper and an operative beating a marauder... well I will take you at your word for having seen those cases, but with a grain on salt, because all that tells me is that said sniper and marauder either weren't as geared or as skilled as said merc and operative (or most likely a combination of the two) and that simply isn't a fair comparison.

[DarkIntelligence]

i think you should look at the recent sorc answers in that bioware said, since sorcs can heal, they will not do as much damage or have as many defensive cooldowns as dps-only classes like sniper or marauders.

 

the reason this thread was created was in response to that comment from the devs themselves.

 

You beat me to it, thanks.

[Icebergy]

Its called balance.

[mmjarec]

Guy, I was not arguing in favor of any of this. I don't even play a Sorc (yet--she is only lvl 35). I was merely pointing what the argument actually IS. People keep bringing up performance in PvE, which is NOT what people are talking about when it comes to Sorcs. It is STRICTLY a PvP discussion. And I don't PvP much at all, let alone competitively, so I cannot comment specifically on Sorc effectiveness in PvP.

 

As a matter of fact, I DO NOT support ANY changes to Sorcs at this time, as I believe they are fine. I hate it when (claimed) issues in PvP end up forcing changes that affect PvE, especially when that issue does not also exist in PvE.

 

Nowhere did I mention any personal observations or experiences, and you assumed I'm a whiny Sorc who wants to be OP. You know what happens when you ASSume things, eh?

 

Ok so you are admittedly commenting on a class you know nothing about and dont play and im the one making assumptions its also funny yo keep saying you didnt say this things but to the average reader they look like assertions so why are you even here asserting things you never said about a class you dont kniw nothing about.

[hadoken]

Its called balance.

 

Madness!

[GatorAndy]

I can't seem to find where the devs stated that heals should replace dps. I see where they said heals should replace defensive cooldowns. But that is all.

[paowee]

A quick answer to that would be...

 

"its just the way it is"

 

Class design/philosophy >_<

[mmjarec]

Talk about pulling stuff out of someone's ***... First of all I never said that the ability to heal directly diminishes your DPS potential, that's just preposterous, the design failure which arose from the developer's misguided notion that classes with healing abilities should not be able to deal as much DPS as classes without, is the cause. Furthermore I said 5%-10% is perfectly acceptable but 10%-15% (which is what it is at the moment among similarly geared and skilled DPS) is NOT. Lastly while it is true that this problem affects some DPS AC's with heals more so than others (for example mercs are certainly on the higher end of that percentile margin, as you point out), the only thing that shows is further incompetence in the implementation of class balance. As for a merc beating an sniper and an operative beating a marauder... well I will take you at your word for having seen those cases, but with a grain on salt, because all that tells me is that said sniper and marauder either weren't as geared or as skilled as said merc and operative (or most likely a combination of the two) and that simply isn't a fair comparison.

 

Fact is you are forgertting reasons why they gabe you weaker dps and using any reason you can to make yurself looo gimp you say oh but we are less dos than pure dps.

#1 lie. You are always more dps by far than an assassin

#2 your heals make up forcyour less dps if you dont want to heak dont pick a healig class

 

You cant cherry pick information that suits you and ignore what doesnt. Once you give up heals you can get your dps back. Just because you arent top dos doesnt mean you are crap dps

Edited August 28, 2013 by mmjarec
Add

[islander]

In the case of Sages and Sorcs, where both DPS and survivability are lower than other ranged DPS classes? Yes. Both.

 

Give up all of your ability to heal as a DPS spec, and then maybe...

[Sargrith]

I do not think there is a tax for hybrids, at least not one worth noting. Some one said 5% would be ok so I looked at my server boards and found the PvE DPS record thread.

 

All the top parses came within 5% of the top sentinel score except one gunslinger one which might be an outlier and the shadow DPS which is terribly lower then anyone else. The difference between commando, guardian, sage, scoundrel, and sentinel is very small. A hybrid vanguard is at the top of the 5% but within it, and the shadow is more the 10% low....ouch.

 

I chose sentinel since he is often the benchmark for DPS I would have used gunslinger but with its tip score so high even the sentinel falls outside his 5% level. Note the number 1 gunslinger is a hybrid and I think I know the trick he his pulling to do this, might be wrong would need to read his parse, he could just be real good too, skills makes a big difference. The number 2 gs is within the 5% so there is that.

 

I know there are issues with parses and all but I still think there is no tax, or a small one at worst.

[Capt_Beers]

Here are some scenarios to think about

 

- I just joined your guild because you need a ranged DPS. I have a Sage and a Gunslinger, both with the same gear. I am proficient with both of them. Which does the guild want me to bring? I bet you the most of them say the GS.

 

- Same situation but with a melee DPS. Do I bring my Scoundrel or my Sent along? I bet you everyone wants the Sent.

 

- When it's go time, say the burn phase on Kephess in TFB. Do want to look over and see one of your DPS casting a 2 second heal on himself because he has no Def. CD's or do you want him pumping out DPS?

[DarkIntelligence]

Fact is you are forgertting reasons why they gabe you weaker dps and using any reason you can to make yurself looo gimp you say oh but we are less dos than pure dps.

#1 lie. You are always more dps by far than an assassin

#2 your heals make up forcyour less dps if you dont want to heak dont pick a healig class

 

You cant cherry pick information that suits you and ignore what doesnt. Once you give up heals you can get your dps back. Just because you arent top dos doesnt mean you are crap dps

 

Are you daft or are you just purposely being annoying?

 

#1 Any instance of a DPS class not being able to DPS on par with other DPS classes (again within a reasonable margin) only further highlights the class balance problems and proves my point.

 

#2 I don't even know where to begin with that, it's such an idiotic statement just looking at it gives me a headache! How can you say that heals make up for less DPS under any circumstances?! It's like saying that having eyes can make up for not having ears! But even if we were to assume there was some relevance to that statement, the fact that the afore mentioned heals are virtually obsolete in end game PvE and PvP... or to put it in terms even you can understand: the fact that the heals SUCK, renders it moot.

 

Lastly I don't think anyone here would have a problem with dropping their latent heals if it meant an even footing with other DPS classes. Oh and FYI I was never referring to myself when I talk about this issue as my extensive experience and knowledge of my class allow me to be within a reasonable margin of other DPS, however, that still puts me at a disadvantage because given my skill with the class if it wasn't for the DPS nerfs arising from the flawed philosophy about which i made this theead I would be dealing much more damage.

 

P.S. If your posts are only gonna be 2 to 3 sentences you have no excuse not to proof read them and leave all of these typos... It's a common courtesy you owe anyone who tries to read them.

[GatorAndy]

Here are some scenarios to think about

 

- I just joined your guild because you need a ranged DPS. I have a Sage and a Gunslinger, both with the same gear. I am proficient with both of them. Which does the guild want me to bring? I bet you the most of them say the GS.

 

- Same situation but with a melee DPS. Do I bring my Scoundrel or my Sent along? I bet you everyone wants the Sent.

 

- When it's go time, say the burn phase on Kephess in TFB. Do want to look over and see one of your DPS casting a 2 second heal on himself because he has no Def. CD's or do you want him pumping out DPS?

 

I don't think a sorc would stop to channel a heal, in the same way a Merc wouldn't do that. They could simply bubble and throw their self heal, both of which are instant cast. This is same as Merc's self shield and health monitor.

[Hockaday]

Here are some scenarios to think about

 

- I just joined your guild because you need a ranged DPS. I have a Sage and a Gunslinger, both with the same gear. I am proficient with both of them. Which does the guild want me to bring? I bet you the most of them say the GS.

 

- Same situation but with a melee DPS. Do I bring my Scoundrel or my Sent along? I bet you everyone wants the Sent.

 

- When it's go time, say the burn phase on Kephess in TFB. Do want to look over and see one of your DPS casting a 2 second heal on himself because he has no Def. CD's or do you want him pumping out DPS?

 

Last question isn't even to be considered I think. I think the true hybrid tax, as they're calling it, (which is weird because they're not hybrids) is not the DPS, but the DPS -and- the utility. Utility toons are supposed to have lower dps...but on here they have the highest.