Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

[Slurmez]

Why? Because all the Bioware devs worth a damn bailed or got canned and now we are left with a cadre of people who can play office politics. Balance was never better than at launch (sans a few bugs) and the moronically imbalanced lvl 51 class abilities should never have made it into game.

[oaceen]

i'll preface this by saying that yes, i understand that pvp and pve environments are mechanically very different, so not all of this applies to both. that said, this is from a pve perspective.

 

 

so getting on with it, the fallacy in 'pure dps classes should do more dps than others' is that they're focusing on the classes.

every class in the game has at least 2 specs entirely devoted to dps, so each spec should be able to perform its desired role. i am not a combat medic commando or a sawbones scoundrel and therefore should be considered a 'healer' or 'hybrid' but a dps as my desired spec tree represents that.

 

additionally, when we look at things like lethality gunslinger and compare it to the hybrid, the argument doesn't apply. 'its a pure dps spec that can't heal, so it should do just as much dps'

but it just doesn't, and these disparities between gunslingers specs were even more apparent before 2.0

 

 

so putting damage potential aside for a second, we should consider raid utility.

 

all sentinel and gunslinger specs have two very key raid wide utility skills: inspiration and scrambling field, neither of which have a negative impact on the user's dps (sentinel also has transcendence, but it can be argued that it lowers dps)

 

as for other classes, with the exception of grav round (and to a lesser extent, sunder armor), nearly all other utility (off healing / in-combat rezz / stealth rezz / pulls / etc.) takes time away from being able to dps.

in that instance, a class throwing out off-heals instead of doing damage, should do less damage because they are not spending their whole time doing damage.

 

however, the ability to throw out off heals should not mean that a particular spec should inherently do less damage than a one that can't. and the problem with this is that bioware has asserted this stance from the beginning and only now has seemed to change its tune. i would really like for someone from bioware to clarify tbh.

 

but to continue, the argument is inapplicable when we consider a dps spec that can taunt. other than firebrand and stormcaller, being able to taunt as a dps offers practically no utility for a raid. and in fact, in that example, it's just a way to bypass mechanics of the fight, so i don't think it can be considered an intended use of the skill.

 

 

 

but let's say we remove taunts and heals, pulls, and even stuns. and let's say there was actually some way to make it so that every dps spec in the game did the exact same dps.

sentinels and gunslingers would still win by a lot. i think a lot of people underestimate the perceived necessity of inspiration and scrambling field (whether it is warranted or not is irrelevant: the perception is definitely there) not to mention that these do not take time away from doing dps.

 

so if we take away offheals, would people be ok with putting inspiration and scrambling field on a shared cooldown like the battle rezz to make things even again? just my guess, but i don't think people would be very happy about that. and i don't think that improving the dps of other classes would remove the value on sentinels and gunslingers. it will certainly lower it, in that other options are now more viable, but considering utility, they still have quite a lot to offer.

Edited August 29, 2013 by oaceen

[Sargrith]

 

all sentinel and gunslinger specs have two very key raid wide utility skills: inspiration and scrambling field, neither of which have a negative impact on the user's dps (sentinel also has transcendence, but it can be argued that it lowers dps)

 

 

 

I disagree, inspiration uses the sentinel's stack of centering which could have been used for zen for himself. Also during it he does not build centering. So relative to the rest of the raid he is giving up personal DPS to benefit the group. It also turns off the centering building of all other sentinels in his group. Scoundrels, commandos, and sages also have an ability that with the cost of one cool down offers help to the raid, the ability to cleanse allowing the raid healers the freedom to focus on just healing when it might otherwise their job to cleanse. Another benefit all three as DPS bring is the ability to combat rez. Frankly when a combat rez is needed it is a huge help to allow then already taxed healers to keep healing while one of the DPS does the rez. Both of these are single target but I argue both are not a small thing epically in the toughest of fights when it really matters.

 

I do not know DPS sage builds well enough to point out any other benefits they bring besides DPS or scoundrels but commandos do bring koto bomb which at a low cost does bring a decent heal on an instant cast to up to four raid members. I do believe DPS sages can bubble other players but I am unsure of the cost to their power.

 

But again I do not agree that there is a DPS tax currently being applied to the healer classes that opt for DPS builds. I agree there should not be much of one though but argue there is not presently.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Sargrith

[hadoken]

I disagree, inspiration uses the sentinel's stack of centering which could have been used for zen for himself. Also during it he does not build centering. So relative to the rest of the raid he is giving up personal DPS to benefit the group.

 

You'd have a point if he was talking about Transcendence (Predation) but he did specifically say Inspiration (Bloodthirst). That's a bigger DPS gain for the zen stacks on the sentinel solo too.

[Shadowcaper]

I'd like to start by saying that I personally like sorcs as they are, because while they deal less single-target damage they can be devastating against groups. I play primarily PVE, but I have been known to do PVP from time to time and found that my assassin is much more effective, with similar gear (even slightly less powerful) at a similar level. In PVE my assassin (lvl 51, gear ranked 146) regularly deals 5k damage with a single hit, whereas my sorc (lvl 55, gear ranked 146, fully outfitted with MK6 Willpower augments) deals closer to 3k to individual targets, but with Force Storm and Chain Lightning she clears whole groups in about the same amount of time as the assassin. My point is that sorcs are good for area dps and should be used as such, whereas assassins ands snipers focus on 1 enemy at a time and so should have more direct damage per hit.

 

However, while reading this thread (yes, I did read the whole thing) I noticed 2 counter-arguments which really need to be addressed:

 

1: The ability to heal provides survivability that other classes don't have. Meh, yes and no. Several months ago, sorcs and sages were given an instant self-heal, which definitely helped sort out some balance issues, so I'm happy about that. It's a good panic ability that can restore a bit more health than an equivalent-level medpack. But that's the only healing ability that a dps sorc/sage should ever use, because if you're being attacked and you cast a healing ability with a casting time, the base casting time + pushback means that over the course of casting you will take more damage than you eventually heal when you finally finish casting. How is that in any way helpful? Yes, you can raise a Static Barrier, but in endgame content that would last about as long as a single casting of a healing ability, then with the 20-second lockout you take 3 times as much damage before you can create another Static Barrier. Again... not helpful.

 

2: Sorcs have more range than other classes, so shouldn't be hit. Uh... no. Sorc attacks have a range of 30 metres. Snipers have 35, and more damage, so a skilled sniper can take out a sorce before he's even in range to fight back. Other classes can also hit from a long way away: Knights and Warriors have Force Leap to close the distance; Troopers/Bounty Hunters have pistols with a range of 30 metres; Assassins/Shadows have stealth and Force Speed, so they can close the distance before the Sorc/Sage even knows what's happening; only Ops/Scoundrels might have trouble getting close enough to a Sorc/Sage to fight them.

 

So, once again, I like sorcs as they are, but I wouldn't be unhappy to see their direct damage output increase slightly. And if people are going to argue as to why a certain class shouldn't be buffed, they should really come up with something better than "it would make them godly" unless that really is the case (giving Sorcs the ability to deal 7k damage per second for 5 seconds over an area of 60 metres, for example )

[mmjarec]

This is one of those largely meaningless absolutes that gets thrown around a lot. Just because someone has a green button to heal doesn't mean anything by itself. Having the raw capacity to heal or tank is irrelevant; it only matters if those are useful abilities in real situations on difficult encounters*. In all but a scant few situations, the answer to this is "no."

 

*I specify difficult encounters because that is the only place balance makes a discernible difference in pve or pvp. When everything is easy/noncompetitive, the magnifying glass gets very small.

 

So while sins have a few short duration low application abilities they are somehow fine but if sorcs have them its hell on earth

 

Example defensive cds 1 plus minute cd. 4 second duration. Sap. Sitistional stealth requred himanoid only. Maul positional and situational.

You must have missed the parse you dont suck you just need to l2p. You arent the worst dps by far. You are thousands above sin and above a few others which puts you middle of the pack.

Dps specs werent ment to have anythin other than offheeals bcuz its a dps spec. My dos spec doesnt give me heals to save myself with uber healing why should yours. Others were right you sorcs are the whinest bunch of low skilled babies ive ever seen.

All sin abilites are situational. So why are you crying again

Edited August 29, 2013 by mmjarec
Add

[AlrikFassbauer]

If you know your class well then you can compete in the hardest content. You may not make the leader boards on TORparse though for DPS.

 

But some guilds might want to have exclusively those who are within the leader boards.

[AlrikFassbauer]

You give up some dps for the ability to heal.

 

So, Operatives give up DPS for being able to heal, too ?

 

My sorc is ten times easier to play than my sin they are already ezmode but you want godmode

 

Godmode ?

 

Operatives already have that.

 

Would I like to also be top dps? Of course, who wouldn't but then why would anyone play anything or accept anything other then Sorcs into FPs and Ops?

 

And why are Operatives a) in the top positions of DPS already, b) are so popular all in all ?

Edited August 29, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[g_land]

I disagree, inspiration uses the sentinel's stack of centering which could have been used for zen for himself. Also during it he does not build centering. So relative to the rest of the raid he is giving up personal DPS to benefit the group. It also turns off the centering building of all other sentinels in his group.

 

Hmmm, ever heard of Valorous Call, or do you not know how to use it? You can start a fight with 30 centering from the combat tree or build it quick enough to start then in a gcd you hit inspiration > valorous call > zen so.... please review your argument.

[Delmyr]

Hey Sorcs!

 

Below are your answers from the dev team for your top three questions. Thank you for all the hard work you put into gathering these! The combat team will be keeping an eye on this thread, reading your feedback, and watching for any followups. Like with the Sniper and Sentinel answers, we have put the answers twice - first with Sorcerer and second with Sage so that it is easier for you to read.

 

-Courtney

 

 

 

There may be a little room for improvement here, though comparing a Sorcerer to a Marauder or Sniper is not exactly a fair comparison. The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full. Sure, you cannot deal damage while you are healing, but knowing when to heal or when to deal damage is part of playing a Sorcerer. Marauders and Snipers definitely have a simplicity advantage over Sorcerers, because they can only fulfill the role of a damage dealer. Therefore, they are easier to play to their full potential than any class that can tank/off-tank or heal/off-heal.

 

There are no current plans to give Sorcerers some sort of damage mitigation, though we might tweak some existing skills or abilities if we feel that Sorcerers are underperforming. Force Barrier already helps Sorcerers withstand an assault from multiple players, and how you use it is crucial to your survival. As a Sorcerer, you must play defensively and make them pay for trying to kill you.

 

 

It is not intended for Sorcerers to be easier to stop because they can heal while specialized to DPS or vice versa; however, the ability to heal is considered to be part of a Sorcerer’s overall survivability. Sorcerers should not be easier to shut down than any other Advanced Class, but due to the fact that most of the Sorcerer’s healing and damaging abilities have an activation time, they may need to be more careful than other classes about using LOS to their own advantage – for a Sorcerer, positioning is extremely important at all times. Sorcerer’s are an “easy to play, hard to master” class, in that most of their abilities are rather straight-forward and easily understood, but getting the most out of those abilities may require a higher skill level than many players are comfortable with.

 

We currently have no plans to add any extra Force management abilities, skills, or mechanics to Corruption or Madness, though we may consider lowering the cost of Static Barrier (but that would likely come at the price of lowering the absorption it provides). In PvE, all healers (not just Corruption Sorcerers) should struggle with resources in prolonged combat encounters (unless they have out-geared the encounter). In PvP, healers should not be able to keep everyone alive either because too much damage is being done to too many of their allies all at once or because one specific ally is taking too much damage within a short timeframe – not because they are running out of resources. If this is not the case for a well-played Corruption Sorcerer, then we will make necessary adjustments when it becomes more apparent.

 

The Critical Rating stat is currently adjusted to a level that grants a critical chance with which we are not completely satisfied, and this means that some specializations lacking a built-in auto-crit are at a disadvantage, while specializations like Madness and Corruption that gain utilities and advantages when they critically hit are at an even bigger disadvantage. We will be working to rectify this issue with the Critical Rating stat in the future, and that should alleviate some issues for Madness, Corruption, and many other specializations within the game.

 

So, Auto crit and the question of how to heal to full are the real issues. I think we should spend 10 pages purely discussing how dps with heals can heal to full in a normal setting without hurting our team.

[AGSThomas]

Sorc/Sage is fine in PVE. I've personally witnessed a good sorc keep up and beat on some fights a good marauder. PvP is where they need a buff. This goes back tot he whole theory "Do we buff PvP capability for a class and risk a PvE imbalance."

[g_land]

Sorc/Sage is fine in PVE. I've personally witnessed a good sorc keep up and beat on some fights a good marauder. PvP is where they need a buff. This goes back tot he whole theory "Do we buff PvP capability for a class and risk a PvE imbalance."

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics

 

Check any fight on torparse and tell me that with equal skills and gear that is the norm. Just cause you saw it happen in your raid group does not mean its the norm.

[DarkIntelligence]

For crying out loud, the argument is that the ability to do a secondary function should not be a gimp to the function which a players decides to do. Stop yelling at people and think for half a second, take the title of the thread and replace "heal" with "tank;" its the same fundamental question that is being argued. Fact is that you actually agree with this thread but that you don't understand you agree with it. Or you are just trolling; if option two is the case, please stop. I can't continue reading your posts, the typos are giving me a headache.

 

Yeah my sentiments exactly. I figured this out a couple of posts ago that's why I stopped responding to him. For half of his posts he actually makes some valid points, albeit ones that have either already been made or a so self-evident most people don't need to mention them, and of course as you pointed out in those posts he clearly agrees with us. On the others he is just rambling incoherently about nonsense.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

The curse of healing and class balance is a very, very old issue. But let's face it, most games follow teh Gary Gigax group template: Warrior/Tank nearly invulnerable but low damage, Mage great DPS but made out of glass, Cleric heal and mediocre in all else, Thief, oh well we need comic relief...

 

Because of the tremendous influence of the Gygax architecture, PvP on one-on-one definetly handicaps the healer, and really badly because they are viewed as "support" and because of their group effectiveness multiplier. Issue with class in group balancing act.

 

Often the excuse that the healer has the worst DPS is because they can heal themselves, sounds good in paper, but ultimately its a poor one. Mostly because they often can't heal enough to counter the damage suffered while trying to cast the heal on themselves and in many games such a cast is interruptable or delayable. The so called excuse, that the healer needs to be judicious as towhen to heal themselves is a false belief that the healer "does" have a choice when they are being beat-up with out stop by a warrior who can mitigate whatever damage the healer can deal through their armor which automtically works 100% of the time. Balancing is tough...

 

The real proof of the pudding in tis game, take your Sorcerer and match them against any other class an specialty, if the game was balanced, and players evenly equipped and experienced, then there would be a 50/50 chance of either winning. I don't think this is the case for the Sorcerer or quite possibly any class on a one-on-one.

 

Also being a healer in a group PvP is about suicidal, just about all players know to take the healer down first, its the key to group victory. So here you have a healer getting mugged by a bunch of players, and trying to survive by healing themselves? I doubt if four or more are pounding on them they will be able to get a single heal off. But once again, how you balance for group combat?

 

In most games, i find that the pragmatic effectiveness of heal is all too often greatly exagerated, and as a result the DPS of a healer is greatly nurfed. But as I said, test my statement, and take your healer on one-on-ones and lets see if you get the 50% win/lose statistics.

 

Sue

[MillionsKNives]

Sorc/Sage is fine in PVE. I've personally witnessed a good sorc keep up and beat on some fights a good marauder. PvP is where they need a buff. This goes back tot he whole theory "Do we buff PvP capability for a class and risk a PvE imbalance."

 

In that case I would like to claim that Assassin tanks make great DPS. I've personally kept up and beat a marauder on an entire Ops run on damage. Same gear level too (yes I was in tank gear, not DPS).

 

For some reason though I feel that his severe lacking of skill had something to do with it more than the Assassin tank's ability to DPS.

Edited August 29, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[DarkIntelligence]

I'd like to start by saying that I personally like sorcs as they are, because while they deal less single-target damage they can be devastating against groups. I play primarily PVE, but I have been known to do PVP from time to time and found that my assassin is much more effective, with similar gear (even slightly less powerful) at a similar level. In PVE my assassin (lvl 51, gear ranked 146) regularly deals 5k damage with a single hit, whereas my sorc (lvl 55, gear ranked 146, fully outfitted with MK6 Willpower augments) deals closer to 3k to individual targets, but with Force Storm and Chain Lightning she clears whole groups in about the same amount of time as the assassin. My point is that sorcs are good for area dps and should be used as such, whereas assassins ands snipers focus on 1 enemy at a time and so should have more direct damage per hit.

 

However, while reading this thread (yes, I did read the whole thing) I noticed 2 counter-arguments which really need to be addressed:

 

1: The ability to heal provides survivability that other classes don't have. Meh, yes and no. Several months ago, sorcs and sages were given an instant self-heal, which definitely helped sort out some balance issues, so I'm happy about that. It's a good panic ability that can restore a bit more health than an equivalent-level medpack. But that's the only healing ability that a dps sorc/sage should ever use, because if you're being attacked and you cast a healing ability with a casting time, the base casting time + pushback means that over the course of casting you will take more damage than you eventually heal when you finally finish casting. How is that in any way helpful? Yes, you can raise a Static Barrier, but in endgame content that would last about as long as a single casting of a healing ability, then with the 20-second lockout you take 3 times as much damage before you can create another Static Barrier. Again... not helpful.

 

2: Sorcs have more range than other classes, so shouldn't be hit. Uh... no. Sorc attacks have a range of 30 metres. Snipers have 35, and more damage, so a skilled sniper can take out a sorce before he's even in range to fight back. Other classes can also hit from a long way away: Knights and Warriors have Force Leap to close the distance; Troopers/Bounty Hunters have pistols with a range of 30 metres; Assassins/Shadows have stealth and Force Speed, so they can close the distance before the Sorc/Sage even knows what's happening; only Ops/Scoundrels might have trouble getting close enough to a Sorc/Sage to fight them.

 

So, once again, I like sorcs as they are, but I wouldn't be unhappy to see their direct damage output increase slightly. And if people are going to argue as to why a certain class shouldn't be buffed, they should really come up with something better than "it would make them godly" unless that really is the case (giving Sorcs the ability to deal 7k damage per second for 5 seconds over an area of 60 metres, for example )

 

I agree with all of your points, sorcerers do indeed have incredible AoE potential, I would even go as far as saying lightning sorcerers have the best AoE potential. That being said, however, when it comes to endgame in both PvE and PvP it's all about the single target potential. In PvE that's obvious, you have to kill a boss, a single target, now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!). Same holds true for PvP. The fact is you have to kill players one at a time, focusing the right target at the right time. You are never going to get the other team to stand in your AoE for a long enough time, unless they can simply out heal it which renders the whole point of you doing it in the first place moot. So yeah its all about the single target DPS in endgame.

[AGSThomas]

In that case I would like to claim that Assassin tanks make great DPS. I've personally kept up and beat a marauder on an entire Ops run on damage. Same gear level too (yes I was in tank gear, not DPS).

 

For some reason though I feel that his severe lacking of skill had something to do with it more than the Assassin tank's ability to DPS.

 

Except in my example they are guildmates and I know both are exceptional at their class.

[MillionsKNives]

Except in my example they are guildmates and I know both are exceptional at their class.

 

You're still not controlling for skill, which was my point. They might both be good players, but that doesn't mean that the sorc isn't playing much better than the marauder, and they only look equal because of how easy it is to push high numbers on a marauder.

[AGSThomas]

You're still not controlling for skill, which was my point. They might both be good players, but that doesn't mean that the sorc isn't playing much better than the marauder, and they only look equal because of how easy it is to push high numbers on a marauder.

 

For whatever little it is worth, trust me as someone that has cleared all content since launch (up until this patch with a Sin MT) In that, Both the Marauder and the Sorc are equal in skill and knowledge of their class. The Marauder is actually our raid leader. I wouldn't be saying it if it weren't true, theres no point since Devs don't read these forums anyway.

[TUXs]

I agree with all of your points, sorcerers do indeed have incredible AoE potential, I would even go as far as saying lightning sorcerers have the best AoE potential. That being said, however, when it comes to endgame in both PvE and PvP it's all about the single target potential. In PvE that's obvious, you have to kill a boss, a single target, now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!). Same holds true for PvP. The fact is you have to kill players one at a time, focusing the right target at the right time. You are never going to get the other team to stand in your AoE for a long enough time, unless they can simply out heal it which renders the whole point of you doing it in the first place moot. So yeah its all about the single target DPS in endgame.

 

Good post! I completely agree!

[mmjarec]

If you think sorcs are underwhelming and are middle of the road on a parse what does that say about the handful of classes below sorcs and wouldnt it make more sense to work from the bottom up fixing the worst classes instead of thinking you should jump to front of the line even though others are worse. I think im right, stupid sir

[DarkIntelligence]

If you think sorcs are underwhelming and are middle of the road on a parse what does that say about the handful of classes below sorcs and wouldnt it make more sense to work from the bottom up fixing the worst classes instead of thinking you should jump to front of the line even though others are worse. I think im right, stupid sir

 

I have no problem with fixing all the DPS classes! My whole argument hinges precisely on the fact that all DPS classes should be able to deal a simular amount of damage across the board, again within a reasonable margin of 5%-10% accounting for skill and various other factors. The only reason I am talking from a sorcerer perspective is because I PLAY AS A SORCERER, allowing me to speak from experience and a degree of knowledge I do not have with other classes and cannot speak to their particular strengths and weakness as well as I can with sorcerers. How do you not get that after over a hundred and fifty posts... /facepalm

[Sargrith]

http://www.torparse.com/statistics

 

Check any fight on torparse and tell me that with equal skills and gear that is the norm. Just cause you saw it happen in your raid group does not mean its the norm.

 

Random boss I ended with Titan 6

 

Only one sage in the top 20 but still that is a skill thing if one can make it so can others right?

 

Top DPS was a scoundrel, so no healer tax can be argued there. I think the "healer tax" or "hybrid tax" is completely the wrong line to take because after looking at all the boss fights scoundrels show up with regularity in the top spots. Sages are also always represented in the top 20. So where is this "healer tax"?

 

 

Commandos.....not a one in the top 50

Shadows.....nope not in the top 50

 

The sages who argue they lack competitive DPS might have it wrong, maybe it is a more challenging class to master, that seems to be an argument you can make from the data. But the potential seems to be there.

 

Now commandos and shadows that want to argue they need a buff seem to have an argument. Even guardians who hit the top 20 only infrequently and usually way towards the bottoms of it.

 

 

Should sages be more challenging to master as DPS, well that I might be ok with. It's a flexible class for that flexibility specialization in a field takes more skill but as long as it has a competitive potential are we all ok with that?

 

 

I think it is time we end the falsehood that this is about a healer tax, clearly scoundrels destroy that argument, they parse at the very top almost always. This thread really seems to be about sages wanting more DPS, or maybe easier DPS. Be honest look at the data, end the healer tax talk and speak plainly. What is this all really about?

[mmjarec]

I have no problem with fixing all the DPS classes! My whole argument hinges precisely on the fact that all DPS classes should be able to deal a simular amount of damage across the board, again within a reasonable margin of 5%-10% accounting for skill and various other factors. The only reason I am talking from a sorcerer perspective is because I PLAY AS A SORCERER, allowing me to speak from experience and a degree of knowledge I do not have with other classes and cannot speak to their particular strengths and weakness as well as I can with sorcerers. How do you not get that after over a hundred and fifty posts... /facepalm

 

Ideally you would want no more than 10 percent dps disparity but then run the risk of all classes beig hmogenous they could fix this by making to dps delivery systems vast and versatile but their class designers would have to have a level of crativity that i dont think they have. Face it not every dev team is going to get top notch devs

[Eitetsu]

...now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!).

 

Well-played, sir.

 

I'm currently leveling a sorc myself (lvl 40 currently), and definitely I can agree that their AOE is really strong. But their single-target potential is also quite amazing and competitive with other classes (top parses being 2850+).

 

This is of course all PvE stuff, though. As far as that goes, Sorcs are fine. They fill their role in the raid quite well. The discussion is primarily concerned with Sorc performance in PvP, as I pointed out earlier. And PvP is an entirely different matter.