Shadowcaper Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 A DPS sage is probably 85-90% damage and 10-15% heals.. The majority of your post suggests that you at least have some idea of what you're talking about, but this... It's already been pointed out, by myself and others, that heals on a dps Sorc are USELESS while the Sorc is being attacked. Over the course of the casting, you take more (in some cases far more) damage than you heal when the spell is released. And if the Sorc isn't under attack, he should be concentrating on dealing damage, so why should the ability to cast healing spells impact his damage output if it would be extremely inefficient, and indeed idiotic, for him to use said healing spells? Also, people have mentioned several times that Operatives often (if not always) top the damage charts. Why should they have more damage than Sorcs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcaper Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 If you want to heal then spec for it i dont expect my dps sin to be able to tank why are you special Umm... have you switched sides? Because it kind of sounds like you're in favour of damage specs dealing more damage even if they have the potential to cast healing specs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaceen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Umm... have you switched sides? Because it kind of sounds like you're in favour of damage specs dealing more damage even if they have the potential to cast healing specs he's been in favor of it from the beginning; it's just his natural state the troll instead of admit that he agrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berjiz Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Then what they are asking for is not balanced.. Any class with any healing abilities should not top the charts in DPS.. I would love the sage bubble on my Sentinel.. Heck some of their standard heals would be nice as well.. The comment that the heals are worthless, is actually meaningless.. They are still heals and pure DPS classes do not have them.. Pure DPS classes should top the charts.. Period.. There should be no argument otherwise.. Their entire purpose in any situation is to inflict damage on the enemy.. 100% damage.. Nothing else.. No spot heals, and no spot tanking because a tank is in a mind trap.. A DPS sage is probably 85-90% damage and 10-15% heals.. Healing drops your dps like a stone, it is not viable to do in high end ops. I play both a sage and a Sentinel.. I also have a gunslinger and a Scoundrel.. I also have a shadow and a commando.. I can talk about this issue from all sides of the spectrum.. Hybrid classes should not be as good at DPS as classes that are specialized at DPS.. Notice I am using the word class and not spec.. I am not sure who it was, but someone was implying that a tank should not do any DPS.. The DPS a tank does generates threat.. It is how we maintain agro on the boss or mob.. We can't rely on our taunts, they only last typically for 6 seconds, and at the very least have about a 20 second cool down.. So DPS is how we maintain threat.. No.. I am not saying that tanks should do a lot of DPS.. Most of our damage abilities generate high amounts of threat to help out.. But we still have to do some DPS.. Our TPS or Threat per second is partially determined by how much DPS we can do.. That said, tanks should still worry more about mitigation instead of damage.. Pure DPS classes should be tops when it comes to DPS.. There should be no debate on that.. What if I told you having a taunt doesn't make you a tank. Maurders are actually a better emergingcy tanks than dps specs with taunt due to their insane cds. They will also usually gain threat first if the tanks die because they are melee with high dps. If anything the other dps should drop threat to get the aggro to the maurder. Just because you have played those classes doesn't mean you know everything. Clearly you have no idea how taunt works. Taunt forces the target to attack you for 6 secs as you mention but it also puts you att 110% of the person with the highest threat. Which means that you gain threat from it. It is so easy to generate threat in this game that after 30 sec its completly irrelavent. The first few secs can be a bit tricky sometimes but it's doable. There is very few places where you actuallly have to generate a lot of threat fast(TC Hm adds). Doing more dmg as a tank still helps though because it is more dmg to the boss which is nice. Hybrid classes that are spec'd DPS should do good DPS, but not as much as a pure DPS class.. Hybrid class have other tools to make up for their short commings on DPS.. Stealth comes to mind, which really helps placing crowed controls.. Having classes that can throw spot heals in tight situations can really help.. You hope that you never need to, but the situations sometimes do come up when you need them.. In what situations is it worth healing? If you need to you are most likely doing something wrong and will hit enrage instead due to loss of dps. CC is never a problem in ops and stealth cc does very little compered to the others. It's actually worse in some situations due to stealth spotting mobs. It can be used for stealth res though which requires some skill and luck. I'm suprised that you didn't mention that. In case of a tank with stealth it is pretty much useless though because there are so few places where you can actually use it. AOE?? I can't believe I actually say someone say that AOE was useless.. That it was all about single target DPS.. If I had a nickel for every time I used freighter fly by on a boss.. Or incendiary grenade for that matter.. Both AOE and both do tons of damage.. Not all boss fights with multiple bosses allow you to kill them one at a time... Someone needs to stop doing Flashpoints and then talking about Ops.. Zorn and Toth in EC need to be killed with in seconds of eachother.. Or the other enrages.. The tank fight, again in EC needs to be killed with seconds of each other.. Jarg and Sorno of KP need to be killed with in seconds.. Jarg and Sorno is a great example of a boss fight where AOE could be very usefull.. Still AOE is not useless in a single boss fight either.. They still do damage.. Not to mention, some of the trash pulls in an OP can be pretty challenging.. Aoe is important, that you use it on single target dps kinda signals how broken it is. But you miss that pure dps classes also have pretty good aoe. Assasins and partially maruders/juggers if not rage spec are the only class without good aoe. And maurders atleast have smash and double saber throw. To answer the OP's question.. It is called balance.. Characters sacrifice some damage production to either tank or heal.. If a healing or tanking class did as much damage as a pure DPS class, then there is no reason to ever roll a pure DPS class.. People need to look at it from that perspective.. The ability to tank and heal costs you some DPS.. It doesn't matter how useless you feel the tanking or healing skills are.. The fact that you have them is why your DPS is a tad lower than that of a pure DPS class.. There really is nothing to say here.. It is called character balance.. A class that can do it all as good as everyone else is not balanced.. Why is it balance? There are more things that just dps. The utilty provided by tank/heal in dps spec is pretty much nonexistant compered to the pure dps classes utility. It's just not that they do more dmg, they have better cds, utility and such aswell. The only non pure dps that is actually worth bringing from an optimal perspective is mercs due the armour debuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 he's been in favor of it from the beginning; it's just his natural state the troll instead of admit that he agrees. I would be in favor of a glass cannon spec that removes heals to but not until they fix assassins the parses show 3100 for sorcs dps and 2800 for sins so your dps is fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkIntelligence Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) Then what they are asking for is not balanced.. Any class with any healing abilities should not top the charts in DPS.. I would love the sage bubble on my Sentinel.. Heck some of their standard heals would be nice as well.. The comment that the heals are worthless, is actually meaningless.. They are still heals and pure DPS classes do not have them.. Pure DPS classes should top the charts.. Period.. There should be no argument otherwise.. Their entire purpose in any situation is to inflict damage on the enemy.. 100% damage.. Nothing else.. No spot heals, and no spot tanking because a tank is in a mind trap.. A DPS sage is probably 85-90% damage and 10-15% heals.. I play both a sage and a Sentinel.. I also have a gunslinger and a Scoundrel.. I also have a shadow and a commando.. I can talk about this issue from all sides of the spectrum.. Hybrid classes should not be as good at DPS as classes that are specialized at DPS.. Notice I am using the word class and not spec.. I am not sure who it was, but someone was implying that a tank should not do any DPS.. The DPS a tank does generates threat.. It is how we maintain agro on the boss or mob.. We can't rely on our taunts, they only last typically for 6 seconds, and at the very least have about a 20 second cool down.. So DPS is how we maintain threat.. No.. I am not saying that tanks should do a lot of DPS.. Most of our damage abilities generate high amounts of threat to help out.. But we still have to do some DPS.. Our TPS or Threat per second is partially determined by how much DPS we can do.. That said, tanks should still worry more about mitigation instead of damage.. Pure DPS classes should be tops when it comes to DPS.. There should be no debate on that.. Hybrid classes that are spec'd DPS should do good DPS, but not as much as a pure DPS class.. Hybrid class have other tools to make up for their short commings on DPS.. Stealth comes to mind, which really helps placing crowed controls.. Having classes that can throw spot heals in tight situations can really help.. You hope that you never need to, but the situations sometimes do come up when you need them.. AOE?? I can't believe I actually say someone say that AOE was useless.. That it was all about single target DPS.. If I had a nickel for every time I used freighter fly by on a boss.. Or incendiary grenade for that matter.. Both AOE and both do tons of damage.. Not all boss fights with multiple bosses allow you to kill them one at a time... Someone needs to stop doing Flashpoints and then talking about Ops.. Zorn and Toth in EC need to be killed with in seconds of eachother.. Or the other enrages.. The tank fight, again in EC needs to be killed with seconds of each other.. Jarg and Sorno of KP need to be killed with in seconds.. Jarg and Sorno is a great example of a boss fight where AOE could be very usefull.. Still AOE is not useless in a single boss fight either.. They still do damage.. Not to mention, some of the trash pulls in an OP can be pretty challenging.. To answer the OP's question.. It is called balance.. Characters sacrifice some damage production to either tank or heal.. If a healing or tanking class did as much damage as a pure DPS class, then there is no reason to ever roll a pure DPS class.. People need to look at it from that perspective.. The ability to tank and heal costs you some DPS.. It doesn't matter how useless you feel the tanking or healing skills are.. The fact that you have them is why your DPS is a tad lower than that of a pure DPS class.. There really is nothing to say here.. It is called character balance.. A class that can do it all as good as everyone else is not balanced.. What you are saying sounds logical, but it is in fact entirely fallacious because you are approaching it with the erroneous premise that hybrid classes exists, and they simply don't. You can only spec into one of three things DPS, Tanking, and Healing. That's it! That's all, you can ONLY spec into one of the three. Using the term hybrid implies that you can do two of those with any degree of success, albeit to a lesser one of someone who is entirely speced into one of the three. The truth is you CAN'T! If you are a DPS sorc your heals mean nothing! If you are a DPS tank your taunts can only get you killed! I am not addressing you directly here, but seriously people get this through your heads: there are no hybrid classes! So don't come with the ridiculous argument that hybrid DPS should do less dmg than a pure DPS. If you are speced as a DPS then you are a PURE DPS! It's that simple! If you are a DPS that has healing abilities those become extremely inefficient and poor defense mechanics, which is exactly what our problem is! P.S. The fact that you are telling me you would love to get sorc healing abilities on your sentinel just tells me right away you have never had to rely on them as a defensive mechanic in PvP! Edited August 31, 2013 by DarkIntelligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) If you want to heal then spec for it i dont expect my dps sin to be able to tank why are you special then you obviously dont need defensive cooldowns if you arent tank spec. you arent a tank. of course they could give you the same crappy heals and take away 15 to 20% of your damage... Edited August 31, 2013 by ivanhedgehog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 There are hybrid specs and folks who play them. The issue is casual players versus the few of you who parse your PvP stats. BW clearly designed this game with a dual role tax. Advanced classes that can do more than just dps are generally penalized as to pure dps output. Is his right/fair? It doesn't matter. This is how BW wants it or they would have fixed it in the last 20 months. BW wants you to play alts. This can't be a surprise. Thanks for your parse posts on Ops. It's great there are some dps Ops out there, apparently Harbinger is the oddball because there hardly any in 55 PvP. Perhaps your argument is that the few people still playing dps Ops are better than the countless legions of smash monkeys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serpieri Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 It's simple - if a dps is healing in a raid - they will not meet the DPS mark. If a DPS is trying to be a tank in a raid - he will be instantly removed . This game has only three Roles - TANK, DPS, HEALER - there is no hybrid role - no support role - there is no raid encounter that requires dps to off-heal or off- tank or off-anything. As it stand snipers and marauders bring more utility then these so called support dps/healers do. Also some advice, if you're asking/making your dps off-heal or off-tank - I suggest you replace your tank and healer because they fail at playing star wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalfenix Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 It's simple - if a dps is healing in a raid - they will not meet the DPS mark. If a DPS is trying to be a tank in a raid - he will be instantly removed . This game has only three Roles - TANK, DPS, HEALER - there is no hybrid role - no support role - there is no raid encounter that requires dps to off-heal or off- tank or off-anything. As it stand snipers and marauders bring more utility then these so called support dps/healers do. Also some advice, if you're asking/making your dps off-heal or off-tank - I suggest you replace your tank and healer because they fail at playing star wars. This, and 10000 times this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockaday Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 I still think that We should be asking the devs for more utility on other toons. -or- a decrease in damage from the marauder and sniper. Otherwise this turns into EQ2...where every dps is "equal-ish" in dps...but you still only want 2 of them. maybe three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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