Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

[gorstram]

A hybrid should never be able to out damage a pure. It is that simple. If you let commando/mercenaries do as much damage as a slinger/sniper, then you're just asking for slinger/sniper to be excluded from content because they can't bring any survival to hardmode/NiM.

 

Even the disparity a little bit, but don't create absolute parity.

[Capt_Beers]

Last question isn't even to be considered I think. I think the true hybrid tax, as they're calling it, (which is weird because they're not hybrids) is not the DPS, but the DPS -and- the utility. Utility toons are supposed to have lower dps...but on here they have the highest.

 

Very true. I mean do we all remember that these are the Devs that said "Commandos can heal and have heavy armor they don't need an interrupt." Before 2.0 Commandos only utility was healing and stealth scan but Vanguards could do that as well.

 

If Sorcs/Sages are supposed to balance out lack out DPS/Def CD's with healing why is it widely regarded that Sorcs have the lowest survivablitiy?

[Sargrith]

One thing more I will say that has to be taken into account as a strong defensive cool down all healer/DPS classes have that others do not is the ability to cleanse. That is not a small thing and does add survival to be sure.

 

Again I am not seeing the tax people keep taking about. I do agree there shouldn't be much of one.

[Dragonexadon]

Here are some scenarios to think about

Here is a fact to think about, good players are downing nightmare content with all the classes doing their different roles. Acension, for example, downed nightmare S&V with a shadow DPS pulling off 2500 on the last boss.

 

If you know your class well then you can compete in the hardest content. You may not make the leader boards on TORparse though for DPS.

[Capt_Beers]

One thing more I will say that has to be taken into account as a strong defensive cool down all healer/DPS classes have that others do not is the ability to cleanse. That is not a small thing and does add survival to be sure.

 

Again I am not seeing the tax people keep taking about. I do agree there shouldn't be much of one.

 

Cleanse is great but In wouldn't call it a defensive CD. Especially in DPS spec.

 

You can point out little boosts that DPS specs get from being able to heal but no one here can say they are just as survivable as the pure DPS classes. With the exception of Ops, the 2 healing DPS's are pretty easy to shut down with interrupts, they can be LoSed, they don't do as much damage as reliably and for the most part they don't have the same survivablity or group utility.

[Capt_Beers]

Here is a fact to think about, good players are downing nightmare content with all the classes doing their different roles. Acension, for example, downed nightmare S&V with a shadow DPS pulling off 2500 on the last boss.

 

If you know your class well then you can compete in the hardest content. You may not make the leader boards on TORparse though for DPS.

 

I think so too. Notice I said what does the guild want, as in the masses. Most of the people playing this game are just going to go find a Sent (there is no shortage of them) over a Shadow or a GS over a Sage. Also one guild running one different DPS isn't proof there isn't a disparity. If anything it's proof that there is one. He wouldn't stand out if it was normal.

 

Tell me this areana team will succeed in top level play:

 

- Shadow Tank

- Tk Sage

- Pyro Commando

- Commando Healer

 

VS

 

- Jugg Tank

- Smash Mara

- MM Sniper

- Medicine Op

[Ottoattack]

Let me preface this by saying that this is not another “You are telling me to **** and heal to full!? Hold my purse those are fightin’ words!” thread, not because I don’t think there is anything to be said about it, on the contrary in fact, but because I do not believe anything meaningful can be accomplished by pursuing that course of action.

What I want from this thread is a meaningful answer, dare I say it, supported by evidence as to the philosophy, which has become painfully clear that the developers hold, that classes which have the ability to heal cannot be expected to perform on par with classes that do not with respects to PvE and PvP DPS as well as overall PvP potential. Let me clarify that when I say “on par” I mean within a reasonable margin of around 5%, which is not the case at present (as many have pointed out it is closer to 10% or even 15%). The validity of this philosophy (again, as many have already grasped) is the crux of the argument which has arisen from the now infamous “heal to full” thread.

 

As a lightning sorcerer since early release, and someone who has cleared all content released to date, as well as having a good deal of PvP experience I have never understood this philosophy. As far as I am concerned literary the only instance in which the ability to heal is a noticeable asset is when soloing PvE content, that is to say leveling and doing dailies as that is the only solo content this game has to offer (with the exception of the two new Czerka SM FPs, where I guess this also applies). Aside from that and especially when it comes to group PvE content the ability to heal as an otherwise DPS class is entirely irrelevant, and though there may be extremely rare cases where throwing an extra heal might save the day, those come but once in a blue moon and are the result of either something going horribly wrong, bad luck, a poor healer, or most likely a combination of all 3. Therefore, I see no justification as to why the at least 10% disparity in DPS exists in PvE. Though it is by no means game breaking (especially for those of us who are not obsessed with getting on top of the damage charts), nor can it be the difference between downing a boss encounter (contrary to popular belief, because if things get that close then chances are your group is simply not ready for said encounter for whatever reason), this unjustifiable disparity in DPS can still keep people from playing a class they enjoy, either because they are unwilling to play a class with subpar DPS or because raid leaders will not take such a class. Regardless this is an issue which should not exist at all.

 

When it comes to PvP the situation is even simpler. Healing yourself or others as a DPS class in PvP is at best highly inefficient and at worst (and most often) simply an exercise in futility that serves only to prolong the inevitable and even then it prolongs it by a pitifully short amount of time. In other words even if we do try to “make them pay for trying to kill us” by simply boring them enough to make them move on to an easier target, as full healers do, we could not do it, precisely because we are NOT full healers but DPS. The ability to heal yourself as a DPS in a PvP environment is hardly an advantage at all, let alone one that justifies lower DPS and less overall survivability and defensive cooldowns.

 

Quite frankly, I do not see how anyone can dispute this logic, even if I do say so myself, not because I have made a particularly brilliant argument but because it is so simple I hesitate to even call it an argument at all. Why the developers can’t see it, then, is entirely beyond me.

 

Well that is all I have to say on the matter, now it’s up to you guys. Can any of you offer any defense for this philosophy? Can you drop some knowledge on me that can make me reconsider what I hold as self-evident? Yes Andryah, when I say this my gaze pierces the veil of the interwebs and stares right at you (not in a creepy way of course).

 

As always I would love to hear from a developer on this, but I am not holding my breath. Anyway, I am now off to heal myself to full!

 

As a starter, I would not consider sorc ability to heal as utility, but survivability. Ya, there is the occasional throw a bubble at ally, but in most cases as dps I would conserve my energy for dps, especially if I am playing madness. You know how many times I threw a dark heal or dark infusion on an ally in a WZ? Zero. And why would I. If you are not heal speced they take too much time to cast and do not heal much. PvE, I would laugh if I see a dps speced sorc trying to heal in an ops, aside from healing them self.

 

To be fair, lightning sorc as PvE dps is in a good position and parsing very close to top parsers and within the 5% range. Madness is not. PvP wise, lightning sorc is were arsenal merc was pre-expansion (maybe slightly better). Too many casts with no escape capabilities. If force speed is rooted you are screwed. Not that defensive capabilities are bad. They are not. But, whats the use of defensive capabilities if I can't dps. Madness has way too many issues. No burst and terrible resource management. In any prolonged battle is bound to run dry on resources. Also, is much weaker than the other 2 specs in survivability.

 

Corruption, is, was, the most competitive tree sorc has, and can perform even under pressure, but it suffers significant draw backs from being focused. And PvP wise, it is inferior to ops healers in almost every aspect, except sheer power if you are left to free heal.

 

PvE, I would consider sorc optimal or close to optimal except madness. Actually preferred healer (at least one) for aoe heal. PvP wise as dps, again madness not viable (at least on a competitive level), lightning is a turret that I will toss away for a sniper in a sec. Corruption inferior to ops healers from whichever angle you look at it. Lightning and corruption are viable, but far from being optimal.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ottoattack

[DarkIntelligence]

A hybrid should never be able to out damage a pure. It is that simple. If you let commando/mercenaries do as much damage as a slinger/sniper, then you're just asking for slinger/sniper to be excluded from content because they can't bring any survival to hardmode/NiM.

 

Even the disparity a little bit, but don't create absolute parity.

 

Having latent healing abilities (especially the ones we have in this game, which suck unless you are speced as a HEALER) DOES NOT make you a hybrid. If your spec is DPS then you are a pure DPS! It really is that simple so I am not sure why you can't seem to grasp it.

[DarkIntelligence]

Here is a fact to think about, good players are downing nightmare content with all the classes doing their different roles. Acension, for example, downed nightmare S&V with a shadow DPS pulling off 2500 on the last boss.

 

If you know your class well then you can compete in the hardest content. You may not make the leader boards on TORparse though for DPS.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise but that doesn't change the fact that there is a serious design flaw that needs to be addressed.

[Arkerus]

I completely agree that hybrid specs need to competitive in DPS.

The simple solution for this is to obviously gimp their healing spells when using a DPS skill tree.

 

There are lot of ways to do this and I am sure the developers can do a better job than me in determining the solution.

 

All DPS specs need to be competitive in DPS. That said, if you have significant healing ability it will need to be heavily scaled back.

 

Anyone can see the obvious issue if someone who has a DPS heavy spec can "heal to full" with one or two heals. They would be an unstoppable force in PvP.

[-IceHawk-]

Just a little fun with average Top-10 Parses from our favorite site and the differential with the top spot.

 

8Man Kephess HM.

 

Marauder = 4,762 DPS

Sniper = 4,680 DPS (-2%)

Operative = 4,247 DPS (-11%)

Powertech = 4,069 DPS (-15%)

Sorcerer = 3,982 DPS (-17%)

Mercenaries = 3,951 DPS (-17%)

Juggernaught = 3,785 DPS (21%)

Assassin = 3,548 DPS (-26%)

 

Ironically enough it seems that Marauders & Snipers and Sorcerers & Mercenaries respectively are well balanced with each other.

 

Notable however is that on this Single Target primarily stationary boss fight the "hybrid" DPS classes trail the "pure" DPS classes by 16%.

 

Just some interesting data.

[mmjarec]

Are you daft or are you just purposely being annoying?

 

#1 Any instance of a DPS class not being able to DPS on par with other DPS classes (again within a reasonable margin) only further highlights the class balance problems and proves my point.

 

#2 I don't even know where to begin with that, it's such an idiotic statement just looking at it gives me a headache! How can you say that heals make up for less DPS under any circumstances?! It's like saying that having eyes can make up for not having ears! But even if we were to assume there was some relevance to that statement, the fact that the afore mentioned heals are virtually obsolete in end game PvE and PvP... or to put it in terms even you can understand: the fact that the heals SUCK, renders it moot.

 

Lastly I don't think anyone here would have a problem with dropping their latent heals if it meant an even footing with other DPS classes. Oh and FYI I was never referring to myself when I talk about this issue as my extensive experience and knowledge of my class allow me to be within a reasonable margin of other DPS, however, that still puts me at a disadvantage because given my skill with the class if it wasn't for the DPS nerfs arising from the flawed philosophy about which i made this theead I would be dealing much more damage.

 

P.S. If your posts are only gonna be 2 to 3 sentences you have no excuse not to proof read them and leave all of these typos... It's a common courtesy you owe anyone who tries to read them.

 

Im an idiot? At least i know how classes function the way they do. You give up some dps for the ability to heal. Quit whining. Sins arent ranged they cant heal and still do less damage so you want the added survivability of heals and better dos than classes that cant heal. That makes sense. Go nerd rage elsewhere abd come back when you open your eyes and stop wanting to be numero uno at everything. You act like are gimp necause you cant dps like snipers who cant heal. Give up your heals then we can talk. But intil you are out dpsed by a non healing melee class like sin you cant complain you are still beyter than non healing classes. You fail to impliment the survivability factor ito your class and disregard the fact it will never be balanced if there are no downsides and only upsides

Your so called extensive experience and knowledge must retooled to account for balance and reality. If you want better heAls spec for it you crybaby

My sorc is ten times easier to play than my sin they are already ezmode but you want godmode

Edited August 28, 2013 by mmjarec
Sp

[-IceHawk-]

mmjarec,

 

These highly intelligent, well constructed, respectful, well written, and logical arguments you have been presenting certainly make me feel for your cause.

[DarkIntelligence]

Just a little fun with average Top-10 Parses from our favorite site and the differential with the top spot.

 

8Man Kephess HM.

 

Marauder = 4,762 DPS

Sniper = 4,680 DPS (-2%)

Operative = 4,247 DPS (-11%)

Powertech = 4,069 DPS (-15%)

Sorcerer = 3,982 DPS (-17%)

Mercenaries = 3,951 DPS (-17%)

Juggernaught = 3,785 DPS (21%)

Assassin = 3,548 DPS (-26%)

 

Ironically enough it seems that Marauders & Snipers and Sorcerers & Mercenaries respectively are well balanced with each other.

 

Notable however is that on this Single Target primarily stationary boss fight the "hybrid" DPS classes trail the "pure" DPS classes by 16%.

 

Just some interesting data.

 

Wonderful data! And exactly what I am talking about, it illustrates it perfectly. Also it seems that the poor folks that have latent "tanking abilities" get I even worse... Again I can't stress enough how much of a glaring design flaw this is, especially when coupled with the fact that we were promised unique and balanced advanced classes when this game first came out. Now I am not naive enough to believe class balance is something that can be done perfectly (after all there is a reason why certain games that will go unmentioned update class balance almost weekly) but this is just ridiculous, as the numbers clearly show, and can't be allowed to stand. Thanks for posting these!

[DarkIntelligence]

Im an idiot?

 

You said it. And you know what I think that about says it all.

[mmjarec]

You said it. And you know what I think that about says it all.

 

Dont you think the ones at the bottom of the parse chart that cant heal deserve attention first since they are obviously in worse shape than the class you dont play but know everything about oddly enough. You just reinforce the societal mindset of me first im the only one that matters. Your assertion that yu should be able to heal better and dps more is like an assassin in tank spec expecting to tank and top the dps parse. Not gonna happen

Edited August 28, 2013 by mmjarec
Sp

[hadoken]

Dont you think the ones at the bottom of the parse chart that cant heal deserve attention first since they are obviously in worse shape than the class you dont play but know everything about oddly enough. You just reinforce the societal mindset of me first im the only one that matters

 

The hybrid vs pure discussion is bigger than just the Sorc, I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. It honestly impacts all classes except the top two on that parse (who happen to be well over 5% of everyone else).

Edited August 28, 2013 by hadoken

[Hockaday]

A hybrid should never be able to out damage a pure. It is that simple. If you let commando/mercenaries do as much damage as a slinger/sniper, then you're just asking for slinger/sniper to be excluded from content because they can't bring any survival to hardmode/NiM.

 

Even the disparity a little bit, but don't create absolute parity.

 

Except...they're not hybrids. There are hybrid specs, that I would agree. But this is not a hybrid. PT, Merc, Sorc, Sin, Jug, etc. Aren't hybrids. In the true sense of it anyway. A dps jug can't tank, even a bit, so it's really not fair to call them hybrids. And even if they were, they would have the utility that hybrids bring...but the "pure" dps have that too.

[Sargrith]

Cleanse is great but In wouldn't call it a defensive CD. Especially in DPS spec.

 

You can point out little boosts that DPS specs get from being able to heal but no one here can say they are just as survivable as the pure DPS classes. With the exception of Ops, the 2 healing DPS's are pretty easy to shut down with interrupts, they can be LoSed, they don't do as much damage as reliably and for the most part they don't have the same survivablity or group utility.

 

I think you under value the ability to cleanse. Being LoSed has nothing to do with being a hybrid it has to do with being ranged, the advantage is deal damage from more the 10 the disadvantage is being LoSed, gunslingers have the same issue. H

[Devrius]

I love my Sorc healer in FPs and OPs, but when I do dailies or play the new role-less FPs I build a hybrid: 23/7/16

 

I have Innervate for burst healing with a nice Resurgence and the vital Fadeout for PvP, Efficacious Currents and Lightning Barrier for a decent bubble and Wrath, Sith Efficiency and Death Field for dps.

 

I also use that build for PvP, is my dps lowish? Sure, is my healing lower then a full heal specs? Yes, but the build is fun as Hell to play and that's all that matters.

 

I don't think Sorcs need more dps, we already have plenty of versatility and survivability to make up for less then max dps.

 

Sorcs/sages have: powerful heals (a self one that requires no force), mobility (force speed), damage mitigation (bubble), nice none situational dps (no need to stand behind someone or come out of cloak) and some unique tools like Extrication and that one skill that makes them *invulnerable* Force Barrier.

 

Would I like to also be top dps? Of course, who wouldn't but then why would anyone play anything or accept anything other then Sorcs into FPs and Ops?

[Ratajack]

Wrong. A damage spec means you are a pure DPS. Heal specs can still do damage and that doesn't make them hybrids.

 

DPS specs with heals have lousy heals. Lousy. They take way too long to use or do too little healing with a long cooldown. Their availability does not make that AC a hybrid.

 

DPS specs with available heals should not have their DPS gimped just because those heals are available, but neither should those heals be worth more than any other "oh crap" ability that the DPS spec may have.

 

Pure DPS means that DPS is ALL you can do. Whether or not you think the heals are lousy or inefficient does not negate the fact that you CAN heal, and are therefore NOT pure DPS.

 

If you want to go down the road of a DPS spec loses the ability to heal, then I can see buffing the DPS output.

[mmjarec]

The hybrid vs pure discussion is bigger than just the Sorc, I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. It honestly impacts all classes except the top two on that parse (who happen to be well over 5% of everyone else).

 

Hybrid is a spec not a class there is no such thing as hybrid class only hybrid specs

[Hockaday]

Pure DPS means that DPS is ALL you can do. Whether or not you think the heals are lousy or inefficient does not negate the fact that you CAN heal, and are therefore NOT pure DPS.

 

If you want to go down the road of a DPS spec loses the ability to heal, then I can see buffing the DPS output.

 

Then there has never been a tank on any mmo ever. Because tanks can dps too, just very very poorly.

[Devrius]

Hybrid is a spec not a class there is no such thing as hybrid class only hybrid specs

 

On that subject, I think you guys are talking of 2 different things: hybrid as in hybrid tree build and hybrid as in able to fill more then a single role.

 

Granted, the argument can be made that without tree specification you cant really fulfill more then a role, but the opposite argument that you still have the none tree skills available is also true, no matter how effective...

[Sargrith]

Hybrid is a spec not a class there is no such thing as hybrid class only hybrid specs

 

I am not sure everyone agrees with this statement both sides seemed to agree the DPS/ heal classes and tank/DPS classes are by their nature hybrids when they go DPS because both retain aspects of their other spec, healing for some and tanking for others. The arguement seems to be two parts

 

One group says all DPS builds should do relatively similar damage, one group seems to think the pure should do defineably more.

 

One groups says there is a big gap between the damage right now, another groups disagrees with that.

 

The fact is whether we call them hybrids or oranges it does not matter, I think what matters is the relative dps they do compared to the apples.